Episodes | 2024 - The Stacks | Traci Thomashttps://www.thestackspodcast.com/2024/Thu, 02 Jan 2025 20:34:30 +0000en-USSite-Server v@build.version@ (http://www.squarespace.com)Ep. 351 Tacky by Rax King — The Stacks Book Club (Nora McInerny)Stacks AssistantWed, 25 Dec 2024 08:00:00 +0000https://www.thestackspodcast.com/2024/12/25/ep-351-tacky65d2b7a49de6215855aa3aaa:66084694f1e135566828a41a:6761ebd730cb381158383128

It’s The Stacks Book Club Day, and we’re diving into Tacky: Love Letters to the Worst Culture We Have to Offer by Rax King with returning guest Nora McInerny. This heartfelt and hilarious essay collection celebrates the pop culture often dismissed as “lowbrow” or “uncool,” exploring how guilty pleasures shape our identities and bring us joy. In this episode, we discuss the meaning of tackiness, share our favorite essays, and reflect on all the ways tackiness relates to criticism.

Be sure to listen to the end of today’s episode to find out what our January book club pick will be.

LISTEN NOW

Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Google Podcasts | Overcast | Stitcher | Transcript

  

Everything we talk about on today’s episode can be found below in the show notes and on Bookshop.org and Amazon.

To support The Stacks and find out more from this week’s sponsors, click here.

Connect with Nora: Instagram | Website | Substack
Connect with The Stacks: Instagram | Twitter | Shop | Patreon | Goodreads | Substack | Subscribe

To contribute to The Stacks, join The Stacks Pack, and get exclusive perks, check out our Patreon page. If you prefer to support the show with a one time contribution go to paypal.me/thestackspod.

The Stacks participates in affiliate programs. We receive a small commission when products are purchased through links on this website.

TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Traci Thomas 0:09

Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Traci Thomas, and today is the stacks book club day. It is the final one of 2024 and we are joined once again, by author and podcast host Nora McInerny, she and I are discussing our book club pick tacky love letters to the worst culture we have to offer by rax King. Tacky is a sharp and funny essay collection and memoir that celebrates the pop culture we love even when it's not considered cool, from chain restaurants to reality TV, this book explores nostalgia, joy and the guilty pleasures that shape who we are, and Nora and I dive into all of this, including our favorite tacky things, what we think tackiness says about the culture and a lot more. Be sure to listen to the end of today's episode to find out what our January book club pick will be, and everything we talk about on each episode of the stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. All right, if you love this show, if you want inside access to it, you've got to go to patreon.com/the stacks and join the stacks. Pack. It is just $5 a month, and you get perks all year long, including being part of our Discord, monthly virtual book club meetups, bonus episodes each month, and right now, at the end of the year, at the start of the new year, you're gonna get some special annual perks. You get to vote in our stacky awards. You get access to the mega challenge, which is our 52 prompt reading challenge that lasts all year. And you get access to the stacks reading tracker, only good through the end of January. So if you've been on the fence, now's the time. $5 a month gets you all of that, plus you get to know that you're helping to make this podcast possible. Another perk of the sax pack is you get a shout out on this very show. So shout out to these wonderful humans. Heather, Caroline, Arata, AJ, Maggie reisher, Renee, Chelsea Hayes, hitha, pelipu and Michelle wiles. Thank you all so so much. There is another way to support the stacks. It is my newsletter unstacked. You can get it by going to Traci thomas.substack.com over there. It's a lot of hot takes on books and pop culture. I power rank my reads every single month. There's some mini podcasts that pop up here and there. It's a lot of fun. You can stay up to date on everything I'm doing. Go to Traci thomas.substack.com and subscribe. Get it directly to your inbox. Okay, now it's time for the stacks book club. Conversation about tacky by rax king with Nora McInerney.

All right, everybody, it's book club day. I am joined again by my best friend, Nora McInerney. Nora, welcome back.

Nora McInerny 2:53

Oh, it's so good to see you. So so good to see you. Today,

Traci Thomas 2:57

we're talking about tacky love letters to the worst culture we have to offer by rax King. This is an essay collection, allegedly about tacky things. We will technically spoil this book, but it's non fiction, so there's not really spoilers, but if you want to read it, pause, come back. Okay, we always start here. Generally, what did you think of the book? I

Nora McInerny 3:21

okay. So this is a thing about me that I think I mentioned the last episode. I never know what a book is about before I read it. So I literally am always judging a book by its cover. I love tacky things. I love a defense of the shallow as something that is actually deep. I consider myself a deeply shallow person, and I just I, yeah, I like deep dives into things that people easily dismiss. And I don't believe in guilty pleasures. I think that is something that has been perpetuated only on women, right? Only we have to feel guilty about, like the things that we like or consume. I was not expecting a memoir, and that's what this is. This is a memoir. It's a memoir in essays. It's a memoir in essays. So yeah, it's not as much about the things, but about the way that these tacky things have shaped the author. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 4:15

that's exactly right, yeah. So that was basically my takeaway. I all I knew about the book, was what it said on the cover, and so great. I think I maybe read a great cover. Great the font on tacky. So good. The colors the whole thing. Well, just obsessed. I thought we were gonna get cultural criticism on tacky shit, which was exactly what I wanted. Same this we got an essay and memoir, memoir and essays. It was not what I wanted. However, I do think what she wrote was good, writing like her essays were good, and if I had known that I was getting sort of like my, my road to an abusive marriage. And I think I would have felt, I think I would have really liked this book, but I kept being like, okay, here we go, Cheesecake Factory. And then being like, Oh, hey, you're on a date. Yeah, on

Nora McInerny 5:14

a date. You're 19 and he's 30, yeah, yeah,

Traci Thomas 5:18

exactly. So I think, like, what I thought I was getting. I did not get enough of and what I did get, I thought was good, but it was not what I wanted, because I thought I was getting more on brown bread. I didn't get enough on brown bread. I didn't

Nora McInerny 5:31

get enough on brown bread. I didn't get enough on mall culture, yes, oh my god, that one was disappointing. Yeah? Or warm vanilla sugar too, yeah, which I think if we, if we want to get into that, like, the hierarchy of balancing whatever scent you liked from Bath and Body Works with your hierarchy in the the friend group,

Traci Thomas 5:59

yeah, you know, yes, only one girl

vanilla vanilla sugar,

Nora McInerny 6:05

who gets vanilla sugar? How it wasn't me I wanted so bad I had it. Couldn't wear it to school, though, because it was that sent belong to someone else.

Traci Thomas 6:13

There was a guy that I liked in high school, and he he wore it okay? It was like, his thing. It was like, his thing, yeah. And because it used to be seasonal, I don't know if it still is, but it used to only come out at the holidays, and he would, like, hoard it small, but smart and smart, that's where all the time. So when I was reading that essay, I was like, Oh my God, I know this smell. I know

Nora McInerny 6:39

that smell. I love that smell. I could, I could, I would know that smell anywhere, and it would take me back. It

Traci Thomas 6:45

still exists. My kids school. Yeah, my kids are in elementary school, but it is connected to a middle school. And the other day, I was walking my kids into school after reading the essay, and I said, one vanilla sugar, and there was like, this little 12 year old girl with her little backpack, a little seventh grader or whatever. And I was like, there she is, Miss thang.

Nora McInerny 7:10

Get bullied, and I'm gonna deserve that kids head down. Keep walking down. Head down. Don't look at her. Don't look okay. This girl is an alpha, and we know that actually think it's really smart if you are a straight boy to wear a girl scent. I think that's that's kind of like a secret way to, like, lure girls in. And I say that as a person who used to wear men's cologne because I got it for free at a beauty launch, and men were obsessed with me when I wore cologne, I wear

Traci Thomas 7:38

men's deodorant. Yes, I'm sweating too me too old, spice. I love it. And then my husband like deodorant. I'm like, I do, but it's not what you wear. It's my deodorant. He's like, but it's men's yo, right? I'm like, well, but it is my it's

Nora McInerny 7:54

my signature scent. That's my scent. It's swagger, and that's very clearly me, okay?

Traci Thomas 8:02

Oh, my God, no. I mean that essay, I was like, waiting, yes, waiting for I just wanted the cultural criticism so badly. But I think where I I want to ask you, since you love tacky things and and that kind of thing, because, like, she starts the first intro essay is fantastic. Yeah, she sort of lays out what the plan is. I do not think she achieves the plan, but she talks about like. She just, well, let me read it. Here's her definition of like, what tacky is. She says, As far as I'm concerned, tackiness is joyfulness to be proudly tacky, your aperture, for all the too much feelings, angst, desired, joy, must be all the way open. You've got to be so much more ready to feel everything than anyone probably wants to be. It's a brutal way to live.

Nora McInerny 8:52

I highlighted the same thing,

Traci Thomas 8:54

I love it. I just I love it. I mean, she has other things about what what's tacky. But I'm wondering for you, like, going into the book, what did you think? What were you think? Like, what is tacky to you? What is the epitome of tacky

Nora McInerny 9:07

in your mind? I think tacky is such a tacky, like, any kind of taste is so subjective,

Traci Thomas 9:14

too, yeah,

Nora McInerny 9:16

and I don't know, I always think of it as something that someone I wouldn't like wouldn't like. I don't like snobby people. I don't like people who think they're like too good for something. Yeah, and I was raised by snobs, by the way, and I just remember being like, what if we just went to Disney World, and you let me decide if it's right, right, right, if it's cool or not, no, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, what about that? But I think anything that's like, too flashy or too earnest, you know, so wearing, like, you know, when you're in that the airport, you. In Las Vegas, or really, any Western State, and there'll be, like, a whole store with just Bejeweled hats, and it just looks like Ed Hardy and true religion, Natalie Dazzler, you know? And it's like, that is just such an earnest way of dressing. It's like, I love this, right? Like, I love this. I love the the cross so much I need it bedazzled on a hat that also says sexy, okay, yeah, because those are things that I identify with. And yeah, so yeah, it's like, tacky is, like, one of those things that you know it when you see it, but really, what you're seeing is, I guess, like, your own snobbishness, if that makes it easier, yeah,

Unknown Speaker 10:49

right, because it only triggers tacky once it reaches your level of tacky. So like, you might think something is tacky that I don't, or vice versa, but like, once it hits the threshold like, tacky, tacky, yeah, yeah, okay, when really it's like, it's like tacky behavior, to me, is so different than like tacky and so like tacky behavior is like telling somebody how much something cost, right? Or like, not tipping, a lot not tipping, not tipping is tacky, right? It's like, yeah, it's, it's like a cultural behavior is like, cheap, cheap Yeah, cheapness, yeah, cheapness. Or like, sort of, like a kind of rude meanness to it. But I think tacky things are also have a cheapness to them, yeah, yeah. They might not be not expensive, but they look not expensive. Where they feel like it feels to wear a Bejeweled cross hat that says sexy is very much the opposite of wearing a Chanel hat, right? Like it's like that, even if they cost the same, one looks cheap and one looks

Nora McInerny 11:57

rich, whatever is the opposite of quiet luxury that's tacky, you know, is tacky. And I am like, I do like tacky things. I think, you know, even as a kid, I just like, gravitated towards like, maximalism, shiny things, Magpie behavior, you know, those little formed crystal figures that you can get at gift shops, and it's like, vaguely looks like a swan.

Traci Thomas 12:25

And you're like, you're into all of that. That's so I I like tacky, but I think that I learned to like tacky in college as a joke, you know, like in I mean, I went to NYU. It's very, yeah, I'm a theater part. It's very, very ironic to be tacky in that way, but authentic child me and still adult me glitter a sequin, I if it sparkles, if it's a glitter, if it's a sequin, if there's a rhinestone. But I was also a dancer, so those costumes, like, when I watch Dancing with the Stars, I'm like, Babe, that that tail on your gown is working when you do the cha, cha, cha,

Nora McInerny 13:09

and I want it, and I don't know why I'm gonna wear it, but, like, yes, so that

Traci Thomas 13:14

the like, tackiness of like a costume or like that, I love, but I think my threshold for tacky in life is very like, of tacky things in life is very low, like those stores at the at the airport, I'm instantly like, I can't even get candy here, like I can't walk in there. I'm disgusted and revolted, but I don't like, I don't really wear bright colors, like I'm not I struggle with that thing, but tacky culture I love, yeah, like a chain restaurant obsessed Spice Girls, Sign me up. Like the music, the nostalgia, tacky of my childhood. I love. I don't know that if I could think of like a tacky cultural moment. Now, if I love it, but all the old stuff I

Nora McInerny 14:04

do still love, yeah, it's hard to think of something now, it's almost like it has to be retroactively applied, or something has to be like passe to get that title put on it. But right, like, can something be tacky in the moment, yeah, because I didn't know, and I still am sometimes shocked. I grew up in Minneapolis, and then I went to school in Ohio, and there were major differences, like in 2001 target wasn't in Ohio. I was like, What are you talking about? All right, I gotta go to where in Ohio, Cincinnati. I was like, Meyer, I'm going to my I don't know what that is. I don't know what Meyer is, but I didn't know. I believed things to be exclusive to Minneapolis that were absolutely chain restaurants, and I believed things to be exclusive to Cincinnati, Ohio, that turned out later to be chain restaurants. And like, what? Didn't know. Like, I. I showed up to this school that was like, East Coast adjacent right, Ohio, very close, very cusp. East Coast time. I didn't know, like, I didn't know what anything was like. I was so Midwest.

Traci Thomas 15:10

Of you to say that Ohio is Midwest is East Coast adjacent because I'm a coastal person, and I'm like, Ohio is center of the marginal,

Nora McInerny 15:17

but it's on the East Coast time. It's like, it's over there. It's definitely over to the right. And if you're facing the map above it right, that's to the right. And like, I would wear, like, this was like, the height of like, J Lo beauty. So like, I was wearing, I didn't know I was wearing knockoff Chanel glasses when I wore, like, the pink lens glasses with the crystal heart on them, with a matching pink glitter belt and matching pink Pumas. I didn't know. I didn't know. Oh, I had a

Traci Thomas 15:48

pink velour jumpsuit. Of course, I was too tired. That's what I wore when I moved into college door.

Nora McInerny 15:54

I would have seen you, and I would have been like, I want to be. Smells like warm vanilla. I would have said that girl could bully me, and I want her to, okay, I probably would have. I would have said to do it. Do it. I also think I'm a loser. I didn't know, I didn't know, like, what any of these things were. So like my I think I almost like these things as like a defense of like my past selves

Traci Thomas 16:16

too, right? Like you now, you know, I finally figured it out. I finally

Nora McInerny 16:20

figured it out. Or when you're in college and you know, a boy wants to show you a movie, and you're like, Okay, so this is gonna prove how deep you are. And he's like, what's your favorite movie? And you're like, I can't say Legally Blonde, do you? Yeah?

Traci Thomas 16:34

So I feel like I've reclaimed that as an adult now people like much favorite movie. I'm like, How to Lose a Guy in 10 days? A perfect movie, perfect movie, perfect. But I used to be embarrassed and be like, Yeah, on the waterfront, and now I'm like, A League of Their Own. The real answer is A League of Their Own. That is my number one, a one, most favorite movie has been my entire life. If I ever say anything else I am lying to either look cooler or to look stupider, those are the only options. I'm either trying to play it up or play it down. It's a league of their own. That's it.

Nora McInerny 17:04

I didn't know the Cheesecake Factory was a chain, is what I'm trying to tell you. Traci, when they opened it in Minneapolis, Minnesota, okay? And by that, I mean the suburb it opened at South Dale, I thought, What a great new restaurant that I've never heard of. I

Traci Thomas 17:21

do remember the first time I went, I was down here in LA visiting a cousin. I was living in the Bay area at the time, and it was like, her 13th birthday. And it was like, fancy. It was like a fancy thing. And I remember I came back to visit another time, and I was like, Can we go to the Cheesecake Factory? I knew it was a chain, but I don't feel like we had one close to us at the time in the Bay Area, but I still love the Cheesecake Factory.

Nora McInerny 17:45

I that's what my eight year old, that's his. One of his wishes for this year is to go the Cheesecake Factory. What is the What's your go to order? He's I have not been there in probably 15 years. I couldn't I'm like, Is there even anything I can eat. I'm celiac. I don't know,

Traci Thomas 18:02

yeah, I don't know, but I don't know, but I bet I think

Nora McInerny 18:05

they are salad, they've got a salad menu. They've got a, yeah, they have

Traci Thomas 18:08

so many. There's definitely things, yeah, because it's, it is, it is for everyone. For everyone is luxurious, yes, like, you have to be fancy to go there. And they, there's, there's things, there's things you could have, chicken wings, right? Yeah, I think so, where they're

Nora McInerny 18:25

breaded, yeah, they're breaded, and what kind of fryer they use, but, like, right? So you can't have the brown bread. I can't have the brown bread, but you better believe that I always had the brown bread because I had no idea what was wrong with me. I just let everyone when

Traci Thomas 18:39

did you find out you were celiac? Like, 31

Nora McInerny 18:40

my husband was dying. I feel like lot happened to you in that time. We'll put this on the back burner.

Traci Thomas 18:50

Yeah. Okay, priorities, yeah.

Nora McInerny 18:51

I was like, Oh, I'll deal with that later. Because also, bread was, like, my very favorite thing. But you know what? The racks King had the best description of the brown bread. Traci, when she wrote, It just tastes like brown. And I was like, that's 100%

Traci Thomas 19:08

it. Okay? I have a compression, yeah. I prefer the white bread. Wow. I do. I do. Okay. I prefer the white bread. I like it. I think I like the flavor slightly better. It tastes better with butter. Oh, and I like butter more than anything. I love on the butter. I love I love butter. I don't. My kid is really into butter. And I'm like, That's right, he's also into glitter. I'm like, are you me? Yeah, like, the two things, he'll be like, Oh, Mommy, can you wear this to drop off? And it's like, I have these gold shoes that have this giant bow. And I'm like, Babe, I'm wearing dirty sweatpants from yesterday. He's like, Oh no. He's like, Please wear that. Wear this, wear this, to stop to that

Nora McInerny 19:46

bad mom and wear the glitter shoes to drop off. Do you like me today in glitter shoes? Okay, maybe I will full sequin gown, full sequin gown. He'd be like, I heard you. I saw you. I'm here. Yeah, I. What

Traci Thomas 20:00

you want. This who you want, your mom. Today, I'm here. This is me. Okay, wait, let's talk. I want to talk a little bit more about tacky before we talk about more into the book. I think one of the things that I was thinking about, speaking of my kid, is, like, a lot of the things that are tacky are things that children love. And I'm wondering, because, like, she compares us sort of to this, like, joyfulness, yeah. And I'm wondering, like, is it something that speaks to us before we like, know better, that once we're like, socially conditioned to not like these things, that we like, feel shame about them, and so it's like, oh, well, that's tacky. But when it's kind of in this earnestness thing, right? Like, when we're young and we don't know better, there's this earnest love of my pink sparkly skirt from my kid or my gold shoes, but at some point he's gonna learn, because toxic masculinity and also, like toxic mom, like he's gonna eventually learn like it's not appropriate to wear fucking gold sparkle shoes to pick you high heels to pick you up with my dirty Old Navy sweatpants. Toxic, but

Nora McInerny 21:06

I don't know. Skillinity, yeah, something you need to, I need to trademark moving forward.

Traci Thomas 21:11

That's me, toxic, Mom. Skillinity, I can't say it, but I can feel it in my heart, and I can do

Nora McInerny 21:16

it best written out. And I think that's okay. There's certain

Traci Thomas 21:19

things. I'm gonna put it on a shirt in the tacky font. Should with the picture of the doll in the martini glass. Toxic Mom, skillinity, it's me. Pink is for girls. Yeah, just all these horrible things. Stop crying. But yes, I do. I'm like, I just feel like for me as I was reading the book, when she was actually talking about tacky things, I kept thinking like, isn't that just like, like a like, a callback to the youth and, like, the nostalgia stuff?

Nora McInerny 21:49

Yeah, I think some of it is, and I think some of it too is like, I don't want to say classist, but kind of right, because, for sure, look, that's right, people who look down on, like, the Cheesecake Factory. Or, you know, hot topic, actually, the hot topic, I say, was something that I really, really enjoyed, too, because there's like, this gatekeeping of taste, right? Or like, Oh, you bet you must unlock this secret portal to, like, having, like, a good taste. And, yeah, you know, I've said it before, like, I felt that way about the meatloaf essay, too. I was like, Yes, you do like meatloaf. Yes you do. If a meat song comes on, yes you do. Yes you do.

Traci Thomas 22:34

Like, no meatloaf. I don't know meatloaf. I'm black. I'm gonna send you not cultural,

Nora McInerny 22:40

I'm gonna send you a song, and you'll be like, Okay, I get it. And maybe that's just because that was the karaoke song that my dead husband sang when I was supposed to sing the girl parts. And he was so good at karaoke. I was like, I'm too shy for this. And I just sat down my microphone and walked away for the night dead. I was like, I got it all from him. Like, he died and, like, zapped it into me. He was, like, into you. There you go. You're like, I have to carry this. Yeah? It's like, I will, I will be able to walk into a party. I promise. I won't just stand outside of it, okay? But I think, yeah, I think mostly it's like, Oh, if you knew better, you wouldn't like this stuff, right? Like, you actually been to Italy, you wouldn't like the Olive Garden. And it's like, right, okay, well, most people are never gonna go to Italy,

Traci Thomas 23:23

right, right. But also, I mean, and also you like, I like Tex Mex is some great food, yes. But people, it's not Mexican food. And I feel like, Yeah, but I do feel like text like, anyways, yes, yeah, I agree with you. I also feel like some of the stuff, like hot topic, again, not for me, not because I thought it was, I was just more of a limited two girl. No, yeah, like it wasn't. That's just like a different kind of child. And I hot topic was not gonna give me the pink sequin. No thing you know, like it was, it was giving a different kind of child, and it just wasn't me. It was very scared of hot topics. Yes,

Nora McInerny 24:04

I was very afraid of I was like, those kids are, like, they're probably, like, smoking a cigarette in there. I don't they're

Traci Thomas 24:11

doing drugs, and they're definitely having sex, yeah, like they were, like, the bad kids, and also, like, weird kids too, like, tough, like tough kids. Yes,

Nora McInerny 24:20

they were tough and they were scary, and they were all congregating there, and they were wearing black, and black is the devil, okay? And they're wearing, like, shirts that say Slayer. I don't know what that means, but I think it's mean and scary. And I am on my way to limited too, right? And I might stop by Claire's on the way there. Hot Topic was always, like, on the first floor of a mall, like, in a corner. Oh, what? Our Mall? It was upstairs. Okay, it was like, it just was in. It was away, it was away, it was away in the corner. It was always, it was like, edgy, but I married a guy who was, like, who freaking loved hot topic,

Traci Thomas 24:55

so, but in my mind, hot topic isn't actually tacky. It's a different thing. Hmm, yeah, yeah. I think, like the joyfulness aspect was never there for me. And I do, I do agree with her that tacky, like, because she she compares tacky and Traci, and she says, To my mind, Traci ness is distinct from tackiness. It's closed off and uninviting. It's unpleasant. If tackiness is about joyfully becoming. Traci Ness has already become. And there is not one joyful thing about the thing. It has become. And I think she's right. I think the difference between like, something being tacky has to have joy, it has to have fun. There's whimsy to tacky. Yeah? There is like, a giggle with tacky, yeah, Traci is like, ick, yeah, dead serious and like, maybe rough, maybe violent, maybe just like someone's being laughed at with Traci with tacky, we're all just having a grand old time. Yeah,

Nora McInerny 25:58

I think the hot topic of it, like, does have that joy for, like the right people, for the right kid, you know? And I think it's like this little haven of kids who don't fit in in a very, very specific version of their world. And this is, like, the place where they can access things that kind of become that portal to another universe, which I, yeah, appreciated about that take too, like her take about that is like, yeah, you know, oh, here's like this store, like a a corporate store that you could walk into and you're like, every wall I can, I can get, you know, like, it's, it's very fandom oriented too. Like nowadays it's very fandom oriented. So it's like, oh, I can get, you know, a special, like, anime shirt here, or I can get, kind of, like a costume, be outfit that sort of, like, lets me feel different and like signals to the world that I am different and right? I don't have, like, a soft spot for that place too

Traci Thomas 27:09

well, I think, I think it's just for the right kid, it's the right place. And there's other places for other kids that do the same thing, like, for me, it was dance costumes, right? It's like, that's a portal to being a totally different person, and like, it's niche in certain ways. At least it feels niche when you're like a dancer girl, right? It's like, also like horsey girls, yes, that same like esthetic. It's like, it just has such a strong esthetic, and it's a way that kids can feel like, This is who I am, this is where I belong. And I think all of those things are extremely tacky, and also, like, so important in our like, self development as being like, these are my people, yeah, like,

Nora McInerny 27:50

being like, I need a wallet chain so everyone knows, like, I have a wallet. Yeah, I shop at hot tub. Can't take it, and I've got, like, a big metal ball necklace that you could also get at the hardware store. And I'm like, I'm wearing, like, my dance jacket so everyone knows like, what I belong to, and that's exactly as we grow up, we don't have like, those signifiers get a lot more subtle. Yes,

Traci Thomas 28:21

I wonder if that's part of it is, like, things that signify are tacky. Yeah, yes. Like that, you have to be like, hey, hey, look at me, which is why sometimes fancy things can be tacky, like someone who's wearing, like, head to toe, Louis Vuitton, you're like, Babe, it's tacky. We get we get it. We don't need a shirt, a blouse, a belt and a suitcase and a hat and a shoe, like I see that you're wealthier than me, but like that, anything that is communicating something extremely directly, a cyber tacky. A cyber truck is tacky. Is tacky as hell. A cyber truck is tacky. Certain Teslas I find to be tacky. I really do well, especially now I find all time, especially now, yeah, I'm like, don't you want to return that? I know you. I know you don't care about the environment that much,

Nora McInerny 29:07

believe me, yeah, but I see a cyber truck. I'm like, Oh, I'm like, oh, small penis too. Yeah. I'm like, You're you're trying to all fall. It's okay. It's okay. Their fields are standing by.

Traci Thomas 29:19

Yeah, there are people who can help you with this, who can help Yeah, I do. I think maybe that's something to it, where it's like things that announce themselves or announce you to others, yeah, are tacky, yeah, and

Nora McInerny 29:34

a mall restaurant will do that. A mall restaurant will announce it will that's true, because guess what? You're not finishing that meal, and you are. You're leaving with a bag. You're leaving with a branded bag

Traci Thomas 29:43

that is marketing. Yeah, okay, wait. We're gonna take a quick break and we're gonna come back and talk about some of the essays. More in detail. Okay, we're back. It's time to talk about the essays. Did you have a particular we've talked about vanilla, sugar and hot. Topic. Did you have a particular favorite essay or one that stood out to you as, like, really doing something that you liked? Oh,

Nora McInerny 30:08

I liked the shopping mall one, a lot. I liked the shopping mall one. I also wanted this, just like a small design thing, but I wanted the chapters to be more like, set apart or something. I don't know. There's just something about them where I was like, Oh, I wish that I could, like, tell what chapter I'm in easier, even though I know it's at the top. But I'm just like, Yeah, I feel like, What? What? Oh, actually, the Creed one. The Creed one was my favorite. It started out really strong, and yes, it's one of those things where, like, I can't stand when people are snobby about music, like mainstream music, and they're like, oh, that's like, so bad. I'm like, Well, I don't know. Maybe you just don't like

Traci Thomas 30:51

it. Okay, yeah, I am such a snob about so many things. Music is not one of them, because I'm not that into music, so I only like pop music, like I only like my Spotify wrapped all five songs, Beyonce, that was it. It was Beyonce. Beyonce, Nora Jones, Traci Chapman, Fleetwood, Mac and Kendrick. Lamar,

Nora McInerny 31:16

damn. Okay. Great, dinner party. Great. Never

Traci Thomas 31:18

heard of any of those people. If you haven't, you know even less about music than I do, because those are icons of the stage, okay, but like, I don't. I was never into creed, but I just didn't listen to that. Do you know what I mean? Like, it was more like, what radio station were you listening to? And I was not listening to the alt rock. I was listening to the hip hop, right? Yeah,

Nora McInerny 31:40

they were on our they were in one Oh, 1.3 kg. WB, which was our kind of everything station. They were

Traci Thomas 31:48

on our everything station. So I don't know, like, can you take me higher? Yes, but whoop

Nora McInerny 31:52

and I remember hearing that song and being like, I am really touched. This a good song about having a baby, and I am only in high school and many years away from becoming a parent, but I hope that I am with a man who feels this way about our baby. I was very okay. That got me my Catholic school soul, and I was like, Yes, welcome to this world. I'll show you everything with arms wide open. Okay, yes, wow,

Traci Thomas 32:18

I don't I couldn't tell you any other lyrics besides, with arms wide open,

Nora McInerny 32:23

welcome to this world. I'll show you everything. That's all, that's all you really need to know. I wouldn't have bought a CD, but it was like, it was always on MTV. So it was like, Yeah, I'm not gonna change the station to this, you know? And then I felt really bad, like, I always, I feel very bad when people have, like, a downfall, and other people are cheering for it, and the only thing they did was kind of like exist, like he was, like he was just a neutral, you know,

Traci Thomas 32:53

I see, I don't, I like this essay as an essay, but I didn't, didn't. I don't have a connection to him, no or to them. But I think one of the things that this essay made me think a lot about, which is something we talk a lot about on this podcast, is like, do we just hate things that go down easy? If something is Beloved, do we just hate it because we're all we all want to be, like, snobby. We did a Colleen Hoover book this year for Book Club, which, I mean, it was not a good book. The writing is not good. Okay, it goes down so smooth. You can read this 400 page book in about 37 seconds. There's a lot of issues with it, but when I announced this book, let me tell you, I have never received more pushback from my listeners and my followers about why this book was a problem, and there is domestic violence, and people were saying that it did this and that, and I understand the criticism. However, the book itself didn't do all that. Okay, yeah, the book, the book is not good, but there's something about like, hating something because it's like, simple or basic. Yes, that I think is really like, is an interesting thing to me. Is an interesting idea of, like, the earnestness of a thing that is pretty straightforward is, like, easy to destroy, yes, at closer look, which I think she gets at with creed,

Nora McInerny 34:17

yeah. And with everything, it's like you're supposed to want to go eat at. She mentions, like, Oh, these are the Michelin starred restaurants and done. I've eaten at some of them, and you know what? I left hungry because it wasn't enough food. Okay? And I don't want a foam, I don't want an emulsion. I don't want something like beautiful. I need, like, 2000 calories, yeah, for a dinner to make sense to me, okay, exactly. I don't want that. I want a lot of food, and it doesn't even need to be that good. But I do think that there's something to Oh, it's like, the the challenge of it, or it's like, oh, I discovered something, and that makes it more, you know, valuable. Or somebody. Be deemed it art, and therefore it is art. But if I can, you know, if, like, oh, well, if I could do that, well then it's just no good and, right? That's why I don't, if I'm, if I write about books, there's one exception to the rule, and I was very tame on it, because I was like, Well, it's a matter of taste, right? It is a matter of taste. But it's like, if I don't like something, I'm mostly just like, like, let it go.

Traci Thomas 35:24

If I don't like something, I explain what I like and why, yeah, but, but I also am, like, a natural born critic, yeah? And I like, that is just who I am. Like, I used as a kid, I used to go see shows with my mom and her friends, and we would leave, and I'd be like, this was this, and this with that. And they were like, Oh, you hated the show. Like, no, I loved it. It was the best thing I've ever seen. But I'm gonna tell you every like, Oh, her shoelace was untied. Oh, this like, I'm obsessed with, like, nitpicking things. Like, one of my great joys is to, like, sit with a friend and talk about, like, one little thing that happened at a party and, like, obsess over it for hours. Like, that's just who I am. I cannot let things I cannot be like, Oh, I didn't like it. I have to be like, This is why I didn't like it. Didn't you hate it too? I

Nora McInerny 36:06

actually, I really liked the way that you wrote about wicked, and that explained a lot to me about how I felt, and then I've just repeated that to other people.

Traci Thomas 36:14

Well, everyone's yelling at me that I'm being too contrarian, and I'm like, Okay, well, I'm sorry, but I didn't like it.

Nora McInerny 36:20

Yeah, I think that's okay. I also didn't really like the Barbie movie. Oh, I hated the bars, like I don't, I don't get it. And also, I hated the line where the Creator goes us mothers stand still so our daughters can see how far they've got. I was like, What are you talking

Traci Thomas 36:35

so tapped out by then, no, that I hated that movie. I was like, I didn't have a sub stack at the time, because that would have been a whole month of sub stacks. I was like, I get it. I don't get it. I don't know. I was like, it was okay, okay, it was okay. It was great, for sure, it was a movie. For sure, it was a movie. Yeah, it was a great design concept with no plot 100%

Nora McInerny 36:56

and any other year, I think people would have been like, that is tacky. That movie is tacky to like that movie would be tacky. But yes, it had the Greta Gerwig of it all. It had the Noah bomb back of it all. And therefore art by metallic

Traci Thomas 37:15

art, TM, metal. Okay, wait, but on this same line, because she talks about this in a different essay, the Josie and the Pussycat Doll Josie and the Pussycat Doll movie essay. I think it's called Three Little Words. That's the name of the essay. Three small words, yeah. And she gets it, okay. This is what I want to talk about with you, because I know you'll have thoughts and feelings. She talks about how the taste of girls is often sort of derided, and that critics and men sort of poo poo these things. And I was thinking a lot about how as a woman, and I think this also goes like as a black person, or, you know, whatever, whatever outside group you might fit into, we are conditioned to take ourselves and our taste out of the way that we view art, and to say, this is Catcher in the Rye. This is for boys or whatever, but I see how the writing is good, or this is the Revenant. This movie is serious and for men, and he's cold, and so am I watching it. And this is great cinema, but, like nobody ever throws me a fucking bone on center stage, one of the greatest films ever made in the history of the American cinema. And so I thought it was really interesting, because I also think, to your point about Guilty Pleasures earlier, that this tacky culture is just sexist as hell.

Nora McInerny 38:43

I think it is. I think none of these things are male interests, right? Like which, I mean, I guess there's only so much you can write about if it's a memoir and essays and you're a woman. But right? Yeah, they're not talking. There's not, you know, an Ed Hardy essay. There's not a, you know what actually I think is tacky. That's more for men are, like, really loud, like the silly little motorcycles, like the ones that are Harley Davidson, you know?

Traci Thomas 39:09

Yeah, that are so loud, yeah, and they're like, what I think is tacky for men. Women do it too, but I find it tacky when men do it, when men are like, decked out head to toe in their favorite sports teams gear, wearing, like, other men's names on their shirts. And I'm just like, that is so tacky to me. You're quoting my dead dad. Oh, and I love this. He is in this room with us, and he is like, Yes, he was like, he was like, so tacky. Like, why are you dressed up as another guy? Like, a leader, like you're just in a costume, like my kid was a football player for Halloween, like you're dressed up, like Travis Kelsey. What it is show me that is, that

Nora McInerny 39:49

is male tackiness, that is male tackiness. And yeah, that's a really

Traci Thomas 39:56

good so few things I feel like, but even that. Which I think is so fucking tacky nobody it's not considered tacky broadly, no, in the way that Josie and the Pussycat Doll movie or hot topic, or a Bejeweled hat or Juicy Couture sweat suit or whatever, vanilla sugar, yeah, like Ed Hardy might be the closest to a tacky thing that is body spray. Oh, okay, which is that is considered male. Warm, vanilla sugar, that is, that is, but yes, most tacky things are not directed at men.

Nora McInerny 40:32

No, I think you're right. Yeah, we are the only people have to more defend just the things that we like for the sake of liking them. And I don't, yeah, yeah. I don't remember the the critical reviews of Josie and the pussy cat, because I was maybe a teenager when that movie came out. But I was like, it was like, Oh, that movie is made for me, right?

Traci Thomas 40:57

Like, well, that's the thing, yeah. Reviewers act like this, like this school. And Ebert, I don't think this was made for you. No, so step back and say, Well, if I was a 15 year old girl, yeah. Like, like, that's the thing that critics are asked to do, which is, like, does the art what does the art do? Does it do what it set out to do? And does it do it well? And like, did I like it? Yes or no. And those are like the different things. And I think when women or people of color are asked to review content, they do that, they say, this wasn't for me, but blah, blah, blah. But I think when white men do it, it's like, this is bad, this is garbage, this is trash. And it's like, but, babe, you're not the target audience, yeah? Like, like, I don't know. I don't think they wrote Mary Had a Little Lamb for grandpa's, like, I don't. I just it's not giving doesn't feel right to me. And I think, like, I think it's such a disservice to a lot of really good art that is for the exact right audience, yeah. Like, Bluey is beloved, a beloved TV show, because parents like it and kids like it, but like my kids, like a bunch of shitty shows that I fucking hate, but my kids love them. So those are they're doing something right if the audience, which is like four year old kids, are obsessed, like, I'm not supposed to like super kitties. Like, I don't think that's for me. The fact that I like bluey is a bonus. But like, that doesn't mean super kitties is bad. It just means that, like, I should go do dishes or something right now, I feel

Nora McInerny 42:33

like bluey is more targeted to parents, and just so I think kids like it. They're like, oh, I want to, I want to tell parents that, you know, they're, they're okay mentally, and give them some regulation tools. And then also their kids can watch this.

Traci Thomas 42:46

Yeah, it's also, it's a cartoon, yeah, in the Josie and the pussy cat dolls essay, she says, if you need to re watch something, it's a sign that it is good and not perfect. And I love that. Let me see if I can find that line about the good, the good verse on 89

Nora McInerny 43:03

I loved, I loved, loved, loved, her definition of perfect. Here's what she

Traci Thomas 43:11

says. She says to speak effectively about a piece of entertainment as seemingly goofy as Josie and the Pussycats, is important to first distinguish between the good and the perfect the good is tasteful. You can see that thought has gone into it. It is carefully layered, and so lends itself nicely to interpretation. As a result, it wants maybe to be deconstructed, or else it is cons. Or else, its constituent parts are so elaborate that it must be deconstructed. It impresses, but probably not in any unexpected way, consider a film. A good film ought only to be called a film, never a movie like I don't know. Show a ponderously long check, exhaustively researched check, wrenching to the point of causing physical agony. Check, see also the gorgeous, tense work of Werner Herzog, or the poetry in the music of the national these are good works, which is fine. Good work commands respect, even if it isn't to your personal taste, you must respect the time and training that informed the people who have produced good work. Not so with perfect a jangly three minute pop song with a hand clapping section can be perfect in a way that a song with an unusual time signature cannot the artifact, in this case, is its own packaging. The form and structure of a perfect thing are tricky because they need to look as if they don't exist. A perfect song should sound as if it were somehow already stuck in a first time listener's head. A perfect movie should partake gleefully of tired old tropes and make them so much fun that a viewer doesn't care, maybe even delights in the familiar. As food writer Helen Rosner once wrote of her favorite perfect food, the humble chicken tender. Perfection is a precarious state. It occupies a narrow peak, the very pinnacle of the mountain. By its very nature, perfection leaves no room for wildness or risk. I highlighted. That too. So good. It's like, yeah. I mean is that? Is that? That's what was frustrating about the book, is I wanted all that the whole time. I did not want her weird relationship with her old neighbor boy who gave her or old neighbor man who gave her concert teas. I was like, you, I know. And you and I are both prudes. So how did you deal with it?

Nora McInerny 45:21

I know. I know. I'm Yeah. I also was like, Oh, the Excel spreadsheet. I was like, okay,

Traci Thomas 45:27

yeah, it was too much sex for me. It's too much for me. It was too much. I wasn't prepared. I needed to be prepared. Yeah,

Nora McInerny 45:33

I really wanted this to be just purely essays about the Cheesecake Factory, Victoria's Secret. Even I would have taken like, you could have gone store by store through a 2003 mall and come up with just like everything that you needed. That's

Traci Thomas 45:50

actually a great idea, because you could also do like, the music that's playing the food in the mall, like the whole thing

Nora McInerny 45:55

in Auntie Annie's Okay,

Traci Thomas 45:58

okay. Really,

Nora McInerny 46:01

really, wonderfully delicious food. Yeah, I that's what I wanted to, that's what I wanted to. And that's kind of, those are the parts of the chapters that lagged for me, and those are the parts that I skimmed, yeah, too. I was like, those were

Traci Thomas 46:14

the parts I didn't like, Yeah, didn't. And I just, it's not that she didn't write about it Well, it's just that I was not here for that. Like, I did not want, I mean, we picked this book because we were like, Let's do something fun. And then it was like, my abusive husband. I was like, I it was not fun. The essay that I thought she threaded the culture and her memoir The best was the Jersey Shore essay that was my favorite one about her dad and him dying and how they I mean, I got teary eyed at the end of that one, because I think she talked about the Jersey Shore in such a fun way. And I remember that time of like, oh my god, what is this show? I remember I watched the first episode when it aired live, like, with my friend. We were like, we have we saw the previews, and we were like, we have to check this out. This looks too good. But when, when she's like, talking about how her dad would call her and re tell every little bit that Ha, like, I mean, you and I have both lost our dads, but I was so emotional over the rendering of that relationship in a way that I have never really felt about the daughter whose dad died thing in in other writing, like, I think she really tapped on the marriage of culture and like our lives in that essay in a way that she did not quite get to in the later essays.

Nora McInerny 47:35

Yeah, I also thought that was a really beautiful depiction of like, a father daughter relationship, because liking the things or showing interest in the things that your kids are interested in is such a good parenting staple, you know, like, Yeah, you don't have it's a bonus that he does like it, right? He is interested in it. But just like showing that kind of interest in something that's targeted towards your kids, right? Like he was the target demographic for watching jersey. But then again, right, right? Nobody really was. I never been to New Jersey. I did not know anything about this, about this culture. Yeah, I really, I really enjoyed that one too. That was a

Traci Thomas 48:17

good and she asks some really good questions. And that one about like, what is a like? Can low brow still be like a marker of taste? Like, if you like shitty things are considered shitty. Like, is that still defining taste? And also the way that taste bonds us, like, the ways that we like the same things or hate the same things? Like you were saying things are tacky that people you hate, would hate? Yeah, like that is showing how, like, taste bonds us. Like, in your case, it drives a wedge, but it's a clear like demarcator. And I think I just that that essay is what I wanted for the whole book. If she was gonna do the memoir stuff, I really wanted her to, like, draw those lines. But yes, when I got to the end of that episode, I was like, a little bit like, am I am I feeling right now, like I miss my dad so much. I was like, reading it over Thanksgiving too. So I think I was just like, I miss my dad. I want to watch some sports with him, or whatever.

Nora McInerny 49:14

What did your dad like to talk

Traci Thomas 49:15

to you about, sports, sports? Mostly, we were a big sports family always. But my dad also like, talk about, like, political things and like, he'd love to talk about racism, just like me. I think I got that from him. He'd like, do you see how that's racist? Like, I see it. Fuck that guy. But what about your dad? My dad

Nora McInerny 49:35

liked to talk about pop culture. So strangely, we never talked about Jersey Shore, as far as I can remember. But he watched, like, inside edition Access Hollywood

Traci Thomas 49:50

celebrity gossip. Yeah. So

Nora McInerny 49:51

you could call him, and he would be like, did you see Do you see what, what Brittany and Lindsay were doing? They're out of control, you know? And he would just, he would have, like, a strong opinion on it. And I'd be like, yeah. So

Traci Thomas 50:00

now when, like, celebrity gossip comes out, do you always think of him? Are you I do like

Nora McInerny 50:04

rip Dad, you would have really, really loved tick tock. Was he

Traci Thomas 50:09

What? What year did he die? 2014 so he got some Kardashian. He got some

Nora McInerny 50:15

Kardashian. But I really think, like, you know, not enough, enough to have an opinion, but he would have not. He would have not seen this coming. Yes. I mean, like, how do you think

Traci Thomas 50:26

he would have felt about the like, Kanye of it all, the Marilyn Monroe dress feels so scandalous to me. Still.

Nora McInerny 50:31

It is. It is. But, I mean, I honestly think that he would have, now, with all this other sort of stuff, I'm maybe I should preface this by saying I didn't realize how susceptible I am to conspiracy theory thinking and tell all the Diddy stuff came out on Tiktok, and then I went through a rabbit hole where I was like, Oh, and there's, there's Chris Jenner, and there's Chris Jenner's boyfriend, And there's, and then, you know, Connie is on these interviews saying, like, they tried to, they tried to 5150 me, and put me on this much like lithium, and it does seem very nefarious and racist. Okay, was your

Traci Thomas 51:12

like, Was your dad conspiracy theory too, a little bit. My dad was also conspiracy theory too, a little bit. But usually his were about race like, like he was like, Mark Furman, for sure, planted the glove on OJ, like my dad, like was fully like Mark Furman was enemy numero uno in my childhood,

Nora McInerny 51:32

Traci, I found a diary entry about the OJ Simpson trial, where I was your dad.

Traci Thomas 51:38

Oh my gosh. Well, I mean, I

Nora McInerny 51:42

he simply didn't do it. You were

Traci Thomas 51:43

the one white person in America. It was like, you and all the black kids in Minneapolis.

Nora McInerny 51:49

I was like, I just, there's just not enough evidence. Okay, listen,

Traci Thomas 51:52

I'm pretty sure he did it. But I also, after I saw that documentary that like, whatever, I've seen it twice now, yeah, I am never been more convinced that he deserved to be acquitted, even though I've also never been more convinced that he did it like illegal things can be legals did bad. The legals did very bad. Okay, I don't know how he got here, but seriously,

Nora McInerny 52:15

theorists, what would we talk to our dads about? Yeah, I feel like I yeah, I really, really, really loved talking with my dad about celebrity stuff. And I also think that he would have really been tickled by the rise of Taylor Swift, because, oh yeah, yeah, hmm. I think he would have been. I think he would have been shocked. I think he would have been shocked. Oh, just to

Traci Thomas 52:37

see what she because he saw her in the early days, to see how big she's gotten. He would have

Nora McInerny 52:41

been like, but also, I think you have like, we got to end this arrows tour. We got to end that. We got to wrap it up. It's she needs a break. Thank you. I'm worried about her. I'm worried about I was like, I think much work. You know what she needs. She needs her dad. Scott swift to say, like, I love you, and you've done enough, and you're doing a good job, and like, you don't have to do anything else. We already love you and we have enough money. We have enough you did it already. You did massage

Traci Thomas 53:05

and a jacuzzi, Yeah, fucking sleeping pill, honestly,

Nora McInerny 53:11

medical grade coma for

Traci Thomas 53:13

at least as long as the arrows tour, at least half as long. They say. It takes half as long to get over a breakup is the relationship you need. Coma, that's

Nora McInerny 53:23

what I want for her. That's what I want for her. Okay, she's tacky, yeah, I think she is super

tacky, yes, like those friendship bracelets, tacky. You watch Miss Americana. You seen her house in Nashville? No, I've never it's tacky, yeah? And I love it. I was like, Ooh, wallpaper and everything. Yeah, ooh, little, little doodads, knick knacks, themed knick knacks, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. I love knickknacks. I love things, okay, Nora's gesticulating to the home. I've just got little piles of things everywhere that I like, that other people wouldn't necessarily like but I had to have them. You know, one essay that I have to pick a bone with. I do not think the Sims are tacky. I don't

either. I was like, that's, I think the Sims were just just gone mall by Mall. We had just gone mall by Mall. Exactly

Traci Thomas 54:15

the Sims. I don't think I needed an essay here it was, that was the one about her abusive husband. I think she was reaching to figure out. To figure out how to get that in, but the Sims was not the right entry point for me. Yeah, I also want to say

Nora McInerny 54:28

that as a as a person who has written many chaotic books that may not give you what the title promises you, I can, I could feel that in this, because I don't know what anything is going to be till I write it, and then I cannot maintain interest in one singular theme or topic for that long. I just can't do it. I can't do it so I could every criticism lobbied against this book also applies to all of my own. It

Unknown Speaker 54:56

really does. I don't think that's quite true. I. I don't I think you stay slightly more on topic. I think, I think we get all of them. But also, God, someday I want to tell the full story of my first book, because it was, oh, whenever you're ready, come back on this podcast. We'll take the hot Goss. We always talk about the title and the cover. But I feel like we already did that. We loved it. We think it's great. I also love the back of the cover. I love the back. I actually wanted more leopard across the whole thing me, like I wanted a little leopard, because I love this little icon, but also like I wanted more. I wanted, I wanted I feel like maybe if she was in a leopard print gown, yes, and I did want a picture of her on the back of the book, and there wasn't one. And I had to, and I had to look, I had to look for her and find her. Did she look like? What you thought she would look like,

Nora McInerny 55:40

No, I actually wasn't sure if like for just from judging on the cover, I was like, oh, maybe Rex King is like, like, drag queen. Oh, interesting. You know, I have no idea. Yeah, yeah. But nope, just a, just a millennial gal. So

Traci Thomas 55:56

for folks who don't know, in 2025 she's got a new book coming. It's called sloppy. Oh, okay, and I don't, I mean, who knows it's it's sloppy and the subtitle is, or doing it all wrong, feels a little more open. Okay, about what it could be about, was it back? But the back says, with rax King's trademark blend of irreverent humor and heartfelt honesty, comes a new collection of personal essays, unpacking bad behavior, sloppy explores sobriety, begrudging self improvement and the habits we cling to with clinched fists. Oh, that I love already, yeah, that I'm excited about. There's an essay called proud alcoholic stock, in which she examines her parents, unwavering dedication to 12 step programs and the texture her family history has lent to her own sobriety. Shoplifting from Brandy Melville is a look at what else shoplifting from Brandy Melville. Those are those. That's what it says on the back cover. Okay. Well,

Nora McInerny 56:50

that sounds great. I'll look forward to receiving that arc in the mail. Yeah.

Traci Thomas 56:53

In July, folks. July. July. Damn. Yeah. Okay. How

Nora McInerny 56:57

far in advance do you read if you get an arc. Because I sometimes I am like, like, July. You want me reading for July? Well,

Traci Thomas 57:05

I think they sent this to me because I told them we were doing tacky. And so they were like, Oh, well, we'll send it to you. But I, if I, if and when I read this, it will probably be July of 2025, same I will read ahead, like I'm reading January right now. And then I recommended a book to some friends of mine, and they both already read it, and so I need to read it so that I can be like, I told them about this book, because if they start posting about it, everyone's gonna be like, Oh, this is their book. I'm like, no,

Nora McInerny 57:30

no, it's your book. It's your book. What book is it? So I can post about it first, and it's called

Traci Thomas 57:34

a hot air by Marcy demarotsky. It's It's so chaotic I don't even really know what it's about. Some billionaire or something is on a hot air balloon, and it crashes at like, a COVID date at someone's backyard. And I think, like, maybe he knows the people. Sounds crazy. It has an awesome cover, and I told my friends about it, and they both started it, and I'm like, What the fuck I invented this book. Granted Darcy or Marcy. I can't remember her name. I think it's Marcy. Marcy has like six books before this. It's all like I invented it's like a debut. But you're welcome, Marcy. Anything else you want to say about this

Nora McInerny 58:16

book before we go? No, we covered it. We covered it. I think we covered on this is two best friends, featuring Traci and Nora. It's actually new podcast, new announcement coming to you live over and now it's just

Traci Thomas 58:29

that was terrible, thanks. Well, terrible thanks for asking is over now. Just Thanks for Thanks for

Nora McInerny 58:35

asking. It's just thanks for asking. So if you want to call and talk to me about literally anything, do that thing, yeah, yeah, yeah. So free. I'm gonna You're not a grief person anymore. No, just a sprinkle of sadness. Just just dabble

Traci Thomas 58:47

glitter, glitter, little glitter, little sad glitter. As they say in my favorite, one of my favorite movies, How to Lose a Guy in 10 days, frost yourself. Oh,

Nora McInerny 58:56

my God, I having worked in advertising. That was such a good depiction of advertising. Truly, I love it. Three guys being like, what's our target? Women, okay, got it. Let's throw a football around. Let's ride a motorcycle. I was like, Fauci. It was very highly, did not realize, like, how, how accurate that would be. And also frost yourself. Is a great tagline. It's a great tagline. Great tagline they did. It's a great

Traci Thomas 59:21

job. It's a perfect that should be your new tagline for things for us, frost yourself with grief. You're welcome. I didn't work in advertising. Can you tell no? Okay, we're gonna go. We're probably gonna keep talking shit, but you guys will have to catch us another time over. For you everyone, thank you for listening. Listen to the end of today's episode to find out what to find out what our January book club pick will be, and we will see you in the stacks.

Thank you all so much for listening, and thank you again to Nora McInerney for joining the show. I'd also like to say a thank you to Pete Forrester for helping to make this episode possible. Now it's the time you've all been waiting for. It's our announcement for our January book club pick. We are going to be reading The Ministry of Time by Kaliane Bradley. This debut novel blends science fiction with historical fiction and even a little bit of romance, following a civil servant tasked with overseeing a Victorian naval officer who's pulled from history and dropped into the modern world. It's inventive, surprising, and the perfect way to kick off the new year. We will be discussing this book on Wednesday January 29 and you can tune in on Wednesday January 1 to find out who our book club guest will be for this pick. If you love the show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/thestacks and join the stacks pack and check out my substack at tracithomas.substack.com. Remember, there are some extra special seasonal perks going on over there. So now is the time to join. Make sure you're subscribed to the stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, be sure to leave us a rating and a review for more from the stacks. Follow us on social media@thestackspod on Instagram, threads and Tiktok, and @thestackspod_ on Twitter, and you can check out our website at thestackspodcast.com. This episode of the stacks was edited by Christian Dueñas, with production assistance from Megan Caballero. Our graphic designer is Robin McCreight, and our theme music is from Tagirijus. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

]]>Ep. 351 Tacky by Rax King — The Stacks Book Club (Nora McInerny)Ep. 350 The Best Books of 2024 with Greta Johnsen & MJ FranklinStacks AssistantWed, 18 Dec 2024 08:00:00 +0000https://www.thestackspodcast.com/2024/12/20/ep-350-best-books-of-202465d2b7a49de6215855aa3aaa:66084694f1e135566828a41a:675fb305c28be333a154f87f

It’s time to pick the best books of 2024! Joining me for this year-end celebration are two longtime friends of the show, podcast host Greta Johnsen and MJ Franklin, editor at The New York Times Book Review. In today’s episode, we share our top 10 books of 2024, reflect on the trends that defined this year in reading, and look ahead to the titles we’re most excited for in 2025.

The Stacks Book Club pick for December is Tacky by Rax King. We will discuss the book on December 25th with Nora McInerny returning as our guest.

LISTEN NOW

Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Google Podcasts | Overcast | Stitcher | Transcript

  

Everything we talk about on today’s episode can be found below in the show notes and on Bookshop.org and Amazon.

To support The Stacks and find out more from this week’s sponsors, click here.

Connect with MJ: Instagram | Twitter
Connect with Greta: Instagram | Twitter 

Connect with The Stacks: Instagram | Twitter | Shop | Patreon | Goodreads | Substack | Subscribe

To contribute to The Stacks, join The Stacks Pack, and get exclusive perks, check out our Patreon page. If you prefer to support the show with a one time contribution go to paypal.me/thestackspod.

The Stacks participates in affiliate programs. We receive a small commission when products are purchased through links on this website.

TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Traci Thomas 0:08

Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Traci Thomas, and it is time for everyone's favorite episode of the year. It is the best books of 2024 all broken down for you with two incredible guests. I am joined today by Greta Johnsen, who is the former host of nerdette and a longtime friend of this very podcast, as well as MJ Franklin, editor at the New York Times Book Review. These are two iconic book people, and I am so excited to have them with me as we talk about the trends of the year, what we loved, what we hated, and of course, our 10 best books. We're also going to look forward to 2025, and a few titles we cannot wait to read. Remember our book club pick for December is tacky by rax King. I will be back with Nora McInerney to discuss this book on Wednesday, December 25 Yes, Christmas. So be sure to read along and tune in. Quick reminder, everything we talk about on each episode of the stacks can be found in the link, in the show notes, if you love this podcast, if you want more of it, if you want inside access, a readerly community, bonus episodes, monthly virtual book club, meetups, all of that and more, you gotta go join the stacks pack over on Patreon. That's patreon.com/the stacks. You got all those things I listed. You'll get to be part of our mega Reading Challenge, which kicks off January 1. You'll get to vote in our annual reading Awards, the stackies. You'll get access to my book tracker, which I talk about on today's episode. You only get that through the end of the month, so go to patreon.com/the stacks and join to earn those perks. Another perk is that you get a shout out on the show. So thank you so much to Jody zeismer, Karen gomar, nessa robre and AJ wall for joining the stacks pack. Also you can now gift access to the stacks pack by going to patreon.com/the stacks slash gift. This is a great last minute gift. And I even have a little gift card you can print out, wrap up and slide under the tree for the book lover in your life. One more way you can support the show is by subscribing to my newsletter. That is Traci thomas.substack.com it's called unstacked. I give you Bucha takes, I give you lists, Power Rankings, all sorts of good stuff, and you can gift that as well. Go to Traci thomas.substack.com Okay, that's it. Are you guys ready for this time for our best books of 2024 with Greta Johnsen and MJ Franklin.

All right, everybody, it is everyone's favorite episode of the year. Unfortunately, for this podcast, I have to wait till the second to last week of the year to get you all to listen. But here we are. The time has come. It is our best books of the year. Episode, I have brought in two extremely heavy hitters. I have Greta Johnson. You already know her. You all love her. She is formerly the host of the nerd at podcast. She is currently the author of The Greta Graham sub stack that is so popular, she's given you recipes, she's given you book club. She also hosts podcasts about things that aren't books. It's like, I don't even know what those are. I guess there's TV shows that some of you watch.

Greta Johnsen 3:31

Something's in Dune, don't worry about it. Two

Traci Thomas 3:35

little things, but both based on books. So yeah, I've never seen either of those things, but I think some of you have you heard the voice. It's Greta Johnson, welcome back, Greta. Hi

Greta Johnsen 3:47

Traci. I'm so excited to be here. I'm not talking about books enough, so I'm just like, thrilled. I'm giddy to get to be here with y'all today.

Traci Thomas 3:53

I'm so thrilled. Our second guest back for a second year in a row. He is an editor at the New York Times Book Review. Ever heard of it? A small publication that talks about a few books and has zero influence in the culture. He is a friend of the show, a genius, a lovely human, a legend among men. MJ Franklin, one.

MJ Franklin 4:18

Intro, thank you for having me. I had so much fun doing this episode last year, so thank you, number one, for having me back. And then two, can I just say I am huge fans of both? Like, whenever we get together, it's like the most fun time we have talking about books. I was at a book party a few weeks ago, and I spent the entire time talking to various people about how much we love specifically, both of you. We're like, Traci is on top of the world this year. This is her year. We're like, Greta is like, doing everything. How does she have the time? So in addition to just like loving talking about books, I love talking with you and also about you, I'm just I'm just dance. I'm just dancing Stan of both of you,

Traci Thomas 4:56

it's so embarrassing because I feel the same way, and I know people. People at home listening are like, shut up. You guys are so annoying. Stop being friends. Start talking shit. You know what? You can't break this bond. Greta, you linked us together, the three of us together for the first time, when you made us talk about a book that I didn't like that MJ did like about a serial killer, but it was literary and yep, and that was years ago. Notes on an execute

Greta Johnsen 5:22

was notes on an execution. So love that book, same and still love you, Traci, that like the bond was formed and we are, yeah, this is just like so much fun always for the three of us to be together. So thanks for

Traci Thomas 5:34

Traci. We're back. We got we got the band back together, and now we're doing 2024, books. So can you both just quickly introduce yourself to the audience as far as what kind of books you generally are drawn to, so that they have a sense when you name your favorite books, if you're like, Oh, my favorite book is a book about botany, and you're like, Oh, I'm also a boss, like, people might need to know what you look for, what kind of books like really speak to your soul. So Greta, do you want to start there?

Greta Johnsen 6:02

Gosh, yes, this is a good question, and I probably should have thought about that more. But I guess as a reader, so I I don't read the back of the book. I find the synopsis to give away too much. So I am going, I am judging books by covers, and I am going off of blurbs. I think my favorites are literary fiction that are still, like, I'm tempted to use the word Traci, but like, have like, a tastiness. They don't feel like homework. They're yes, they're good, they're fun, they're delicious, they go down easy, but they're still about things. Is like, generally, the sort of book I like. So usually it's plotty. Sometimes it's a little salacious, but those I would say, are, like, my absolute favorites. But beyond that, I mean, I also, like, I'm a big genre reader. I'll do especially sci fi and fantasy. I really love and romance now and then too. So it's like a pretty broad but mostly fiction for the most part. Okay. MJ, how about you?

MJ Franklin 7:01

I am very similar. I am a fiction girl, through and through. That is where my home is. I try to read pretty broadly, though. So I do dabble in non fiction, but like fiction is where I feel most comfortable. And then in fiction, I read all over. I love literary fiction. I want meticulously crafted sentences. I want a strong metaphor. I want a feeling that something is afoot. I don't want just the story, but I like, I want some type of rendering there. I'm using all these pretentious words, but like, that's what I that's what that's what hooks me, not just the story, but like how we get there, how it's told. I do read genre. I dabble at some horror, some romance. I read pretty widely. Sometimes I like quiet books where nothing really happens. You just kind of feel ambiently bad along with the character. Sometimes I love a book with a maximalist plot, but that the overall feeling of fiction, where you feel like something is afoot, is how I would describe myself. I

Traci Thomas 8:06

love that. I love something as afoot. That's the only kind of fiction I like. So similar to you all, I like things afoot. I like things to happen if I'm reading fiction unlike you. MJ, if nothing happens, it's an automatic close goodbye. Never want to talk to you again. Why are you?

Greta Johnsen 8:25

Yeah, I'm closer to that too. Like, oh my god, it's fiction.

Traci Thomas 8:29

I need something, even if it's just the fear of something is gonna happen, that might be enough to sustain me through a book, if it's short. But as you all know, listening, my bread and butter is non fiction. I love non fiction. If you can give me good narrative non fiction, you can become my boyfriend. That is how I started dating Patrick Radden, Keith. He gave me good non fiction, and we've been going steady for years now, okay? And I also I love any sort of non fiction about a government agency or or very wealthy organization who's done a terrible, terrible thing that's really my, my extremely niche love, but also a memoir I can be into. But you all know that. Okay, another question about your year in reading this year is, I don't know how, how much you all track your reading. I'm intense, but approximately how many books have you read up until this point? We've got two weeks left in the year. And then how many of those would you say were 2024? Releases? If you had to guess,

MJ Franklin 9:31

I guess I can start because my easy answer is, I have no clue. We've talked about, I think we talked about this. Oh yeah. The reason is because I like separate my personal reading versus my work reading. But I spend all my time doing work reading, so I also meticulously track work reading. I have a spreadsheet, and I think right now I'm at 51 books for me personally, but it takes a lot for a book to get onto that list. I can read something like four. Work many times. And unless I've read it specifically for me, it doesn't go in there. And Traci, we talked about this last year, and I think

Traci Thomas 10:07

so the 51 is the personal not the work reading, correct?

MJ Franklin 10:10

So that's 51 on top of all my work reading. And

Traci Thomas 10:14

do you have any sense of what the work reading is not about,

MJ Franklin 10:17

not at all, because we're just reading it constantly, constantly, and here's a prime example of why it's so hard to tabulate. Say, I'm trying to choose a book for book club, and I read 75% into four different books, right, right? I will finish the one that we end up doing, right? That makes it onto my list. The other three don't, unless I go back and read them later, but at that point it's like, what Weeks, months afterward? Like, I'm not in that same headspace that doesn't feel like a normal person reading experience. So it doesn't go on my spreadsheet. You

Traci Thomas 10:53

need to take notes next year, because now I'm so curious. I know how many of these like, you need to just make a little spreadsheet where it's like, finished. It? Didn't finish it? Yeah, dabbled, yeah, just because I need to know, I'm just so curious, like, how many books you're reading into, especially because, like, you're a professional reader at an institution, so I'm curious, like, what that looks like for someone of your ilk.

MJ Franklin 11:14

Yeah, I this is a good note, and I definitely will. I've, I've been getting this question enough that I hate not having a good answer, so I will amend my spreadsheet next year. But part of the reason for me of the spreadsheet and why I separate it out is because I'm sure you two get this all the time, like reading for work can sometimes take the pleasure out of reading, and so having a spreadsheet or some type of barrier that says actually you need to focus on you is helpful. So that's why I'm so strict about compartmentalizing, to keep the

Traci Thomas 11:44

joy of reading. Yeah, make a different tab for your work. So in my reading spreadsheet, I have a tab for reason read, and it's a drop down for fun, for work, for the stacks book club, for the Reading Challenge, for whatever. And so that way I can see everything I've read together, but I can also see why I read something. And then there's, like, a little calculation, so I know the percentage blah, blah. That's so interesting,

Greta Johnsen 12:07

though, because ideally it is both for fun and for work, right? So, I mean, isn't that everything is technically

Traci Thomas 12:12

work? Yeah, I think it's different for MJ, I get assigned. I get everything, yeah, everything I read. I get to choose what I'm reading. I don't get assigned anything. And then also everything I read I end up reviewing on my page, right? So it's technically work at some point, right? But I try to go in with like, Why did I pick this up? Did I pick this up because I knew I had to interview the person, which is work, or did I pick it up because I was curious about it, which is fun, yeah. Can

MJ Franklin 12:39

I say one more? I feel like I want to know your answer too. But the other thing I just want to just want to say is about reading as an editor is also tricky, because I am constantly trying to remove myself from the reading process. Because as an assigning editor, it's not necessarily my job to say I love this book. It's my job to look into it and say, Is there something here that someone else can like will dig into. And so even if it's a book that I love and I've given to a reviewer like, I never want to say that out loud to that rubrics, I don't want to influence their feelings about the book. So I don't totally get rid of my own opinion. Like I'm guided by my own taste. But yeah, work reading is reading that is guided by another set of principles than just like, am I into it? Do I like it? And like that shapes, inevitably, how you do the reading? Yeah,

Greta Johnsen 13:28

it's so interesting. It's fascinating. That's wild. Okay,

Traci Thomas 13:32

Greta, how many books, and how do you track if you do and if you did, how many were from this year?

Greta Johnsen 13:39

So I just counted this morning because I had a feeling you were going to ask me. I'm 86 I track them in this little book that I've been using since 2013 so it's just like, listen, listen, listen, oh my gosh,

Traci Thomas 13:54

Greta, take a picture of that so I can post that on social media. So people, because we this is an audio I

Greta Johnsen 13:59

will. It's literally just title and author, and it's by month, but it's pretty cool to be able to, I mean, especially over 10 years now, it's fun to, like, just open it up and, like, I can place myself, like, Oh, I remember the apartment I lived in, or, like, I remember the walk I was on when I was listening to that. It's really lovely. I should count out. The vast majority of my reading these days is audio books, but I still do some printed stuff as well, and I think I only read one book from not 2024 this year, and it was dune. Oh, wow. Yeah, that's incredible. Yeah, I I'm pretty sure I'd have to double check that, but I'm pretty confident they

Traci Thomas 14:37

were. Do you mostly read books in the year that they come out. So like, in 2025, is there anything from this year that you're hoping to still get to, or are you moved on?

Greta Johnsen 14:47

That's a great question. I mean, there are still a couple from this year that I want to try and get in like, Help Wanted is one that I just, like, haven't read yet, but it has been buzzy enough that it's like, I would like to get to that. But, yeah, I don't know. I mean, I'm already, I. Also reading something that does come out next year. So I do sort of think, I think it's called hot air.

Traci Thomas 15:07

That's why the books I told I told MJ about this book. Okay, funny, blows up. If this book blows up, I want credit, because it's a fiction book I discovered. And I never, ever do that. Yeah, Traci

MJ Franklin 15:16

recommended it to me. I then read it over Thanksgiving. Oh, I want to talk to you about this book,

Greta Johnsen 15:21

right? Okay, great. I It's funny because I like, just have such little, like, actual reading time, and I'm reading it in print, and so I'm, like, moving my way very slowly through it, but I'm, I find it very charming and kind of off putting at the same time, it's a really interesting one. Okay, I'm

Traci Thomas 15:34

reading it next. I'm currently writing a 2025, book, and then I'm gonna pick that up next. Okay, I'm so excited, ah, because I can't have you two all if this book pops, I cannot have you two taking credit for this book, because I found this

Greta Johnsen 15:48

book. Traci, so, yeah, okay, I have started a little and I think I will sort of turn the page with the new year, but it also depends, like, what's coming out in January and February, you know, like, I do think that's part of it too. Is like those often, even December, I think, is like a pretty slow publishing month in terms of new releases. So it's a great opportunity to kind of try and catch up on stuff that I may have missed through the year. And I imagine I'll do that for a couple more months, especially with audio, since those books are already out, you know, yeah, can

MJ Franklin 16:17

I ask a question Greta, which is, how does is it just like, Oh, we're in the next year, and I'm on to the next thing Where's like a discipline, like, the year is done. Even if I'm not excited about stuff in 2025 I cannot go back to 2024 like, how? How does that line of you have to read the books in the year that came out? How strict is that? That's

Greta Johnsen 16:39

a really good question. I mean, it used to be maybe more strict when I was, you know, working on nerd and like, trying to do author interviews regularly with folks who had books out and were doing press tours for them these days. You know, I'm still doing a book club through my sub stack retagram, but I'm, I am my own boss at this moment in time, which means I'm gonna do whatever the fuck I want, right? Because that's the gift I can give myself. So, yeah,

MJ Franklin 17:08

happy holidays everyone.

Greta Johnsen 17:12

So, you know? And MJ, I don't know if you were like, we had a conversation years ago where you were like, don't read a book. You don't like, you know, and like, I think you said something about aspiring to read less the following year. And that's something that I thought a lot about over the several years since then, too, where it's like, I I'm trying to be much more rigorous about like, if this book isn't working for me, I don't have to. No one is telling me I need to read it. There really is no obligation. So I think, especially given my current employment situation, is like, I'm gonna read for fun and I'm gonna like, so if there's a 2025, book that looks fun and interesting, which there are several, I'm very excited about that. But otherwise, like, Yeah, I'm not gonna hold myself to the year I am currently in. No,

Traci Thomas 17:51

I love it. Okay? For the sake of transparency, I have read 131

Greta Johnsen 17:58

books. Nice this year. Oh, my God, you're cruising. Four

Traci Thomas 18:02

of them are from 2024 which is 64% of my reading has been 2024 books. I am still finishing up a few 2024 books on audio that were on the New York Times. 10 Best Books the non fiction side. Because I want to hate that list, but I want to make sure that I read everything from it so that I can really hate it. Traci,

I'm

a rigorous hater. That is

MJ Franklin 18:24

the energy that I want to bring to all things. And we're all book nerds, like doing the homework is very important to all of us.

Traci Thomas 18:31

It's so important. And because the truth is, and I've said this to you before, and I think we talked about this last year, and I think I said it to Gilbert to his face, because, like, I genuinely love the New York Times lists, not because I agree with you all most of the time, but because I think that they're exciting and fun and so reading this, this 10 books at the end of the year list is, to me, my favorite of any book list, award list, anything, even though most of the time I disagree vehemently with at least two of the non fiction picks. So it is a joy for me. And I've never actually been a full completist of the list before the year was out. So I have, I'm doing wide, wide, the wide, wide C currently, and I am bored out of my mind. MJ, I know you told me that the people who were on the non fiction side said that it was just kept delivering. So I'm giving it a chance. I'm only two hours in. I got 13 to go, and then I'm gonna go to the 975 hour biography of Reagan. And that will probably be my last 24 read. Might be the last read of my life. Could be it seven years of Reagan, but I'm gonna try. I will DNF both of them, if I don't like them, but I'm gonna try so, so I should probably end with about 8620 24 reads If I'm able to finish. So we'll see.

MJ Franklin 19:50

How do you have time for 130 books in a year, especially as like, you're working so much and Like. A gap that you read these books into and you're covering them. How do you have the time?

Traci Thomas 20:04

Um, I that's such a great question. So I definitely audio book a lot. And you're like, me 1.25 in, I assume I'm like 1.5 to 170 there

Greta Johnsen 20:13

it is. There it is. They're going fast.

Traci Thomas 20:17

Well, to me, that's how people talk. I don't talk at a one, I talk at at least a 1.5 I think I probably, if I'm excited, I talk at a 175, so for me, it's the only way I can hear it like and then I read at night, and I read in the morning. And sometimes, if I'm on deadline, I don't do my other work, and I read in the middle of the day. I don't know, and I mean, also, like, I read all sorts of kinds of books. So sometimes that means I'm reading a cookbook or something for work, or I'm like. So it's not all just like, straight novels or straight non fiction, though. I think the percentage, I think I read two cookbooks this year. So it's not like or like. I think I read like three poetry, you know, like, sometimes poetry, sometimes other things that are smaller, that sort of fill out. And some months I read a lot, and someone's I read very little. So it just sort of depends. But I'm actually down from last year, which is sort of lovely, and I continue, I'm hoping to continue a downward trend. I think

Greta Johnsen 21:10

that aspiring to a downward trend is really, really lovely.

Traci Thomas 21:14

Yeah, every year I set my goal the same. It's 100 at this point, because that feels like, yeah, that feels like responsible with the workload. But every year I go over 100 I'm like, you failed too many.

MJ Franklin 21:27

Downward Spiral, downward trend. Read less. It's not about, like, get rid of the books, burn the book. It's like, oh, quality over quantity, right? Like, I want to read the book, and I want to read everything about the author, and I'm going to read the reviews. And that's all stuff that, like shapes how you experience a book, but doesn't necessarily go onto your list. And so I want, I want the quality

Traci Thomas 21:46

time. Yeah, I do too, yeah. Okay, this is the last question before we take a break and then get to the actual list, which is, what did both of you make of 2024 as a year in books overall, what was your experience? Was it a good year? Was it a bad year? Were there trends that you felt like really popped to you? Was there anything that felt uniquely 2024 as far as books and reading life go?

Greta Johnsen 22:12

That's a really good question. MJ, I'm very curious, especially around trends, what your read is on that? I thought it was a great year for books. I thought it was phenomenal. I thought it started beautifully, too. Like, it's interesting. Looking at this list, I brought of some of my favorites, because I think, like all of them, but one I read in the first four months of the year. Like, I thought it just, like, started beautifully and just kind of kept going. What do you think? MJ,

MJ Franklin 22:37

I completely agree. I thought that this year. Yeah, January just had so January, February, so many great books that really set the tone for the year and raised the bar and the year kept delivering. I heard a theory that that was for especially for fiction, because of the election, no one wanted to publish giant books around the election because everyone assumed that our attention would be elsewhere. So I think that front loaded the year, but also, again, like the year just kept delivering. So yes, for me, it was such a like a triumphant year in books, and I think a surprising one, both that it was front loaded, but for me, that's the word that I use to describe 2024, in literature. Who would have thought that one of the buzziest books. One of the book that won the National Book Award was would be a retelling of Huck Finn. Or looking at the National Book Award list, how many of those were debuts? One of them ghost roots. One of the finalists, that's a debut short story horror collection, right? Like that is a surprising place to have captured the public imagination, because we think of, like, especially genres being like niche, not necessarily for a bad reason, but like, those are very specific communities. And so that was surprising to me. We got some really big returns from heavy headers. Alan hollinghurst had a new book this year. Again, personal. Everett had a book, but then also really delightful, surprising and really assured debuts. So for me, surprising is the word that comes to mind.

Traci Thomas 24:07

Okay, guys, no surprise to you. I disagree. I thought this was sort of a disappointing year in books, interesting words. So I agree, The year started off really strong, all of my favorite books, except for one, well, the ones I'm gonna talk about today came out in the first half of the year, and I just felt like there were some really, really strong books early in the year, and nothing quite lived up to it for me, especially on the fiction side, on the non fiction side, I think that the year sort of picked up a little bit later and did get better, but a lot of my favorite non fiction was really sleepy got, like, nobody not sleepy. Like the book was sleepy, but, like, it got slept on. People were not talking about the books that I thought were the most exciting and good. And so I felt like this was sort of a challenging year, like it felt like there was consensus around books this year in a way that I've never. Ever experienced, which is surprising to your point. MJ, I think, but I think it left it left me feeling like a lot of the year was less exciting than I wanted, because everyone sort of agreed, which is actually what I'm interested about when we get to our books, is that I'm worried that we are going to agree about too many books on the list. Can

MJ Franklin 25:18

I ask a question of, what are some books maybe that aren't necessarily on this list, but were really buzzing notable non fiction books that published later in the year that got slept on. What are those books that you want wish gut word. So like, I

Traci Thomas 25:30

think there was an essay. Well, I don't know if it was a buzzy book, but I thought it was really good. So like, I think Greta, you and I both loved it, which is how to tell when we will die by Johanna hedva, a book about disability, pain. Oh, okay, well, I won't say more than it's also on my list. It's on one of my list I have, I have a main list, and then I have a list to fill in, in case you guys steal mine, like that was a book. I thought the Ayanna Johnson book, what if we get this right? Was so fantastic. I thought, I thought that book was gonna be huge. I'm so shocked. I thought that, like I thought the barn by Wright Thompson was so fantastic, and I have seen it on some lists, but I don't think he got enough due for what he did. Another book that I loved, that I thought didn't get enough attention was the other Olympians, about transgender Olympic athletes in the 1936 Olympics. It was so on time. It was so good, so good. And I think people nobody talked about it. I probably didn't talk about it enough, to be honest. But so I do, I do think there were a lot of, there's a lot of, like, hidden non fiction this year, versus some really big non fiction books, one of which I totally despise, which was knife. I thought knife was so mid to bad and got so much like, I just feel like he sucked up all the non fiction attention in the room. So yeah, that's sort of my answer. Okay, we're gonna take a break and we're gonna come back with our 10 best books of the year. I All right, I'm back with MJ Franklin and Greta Johnson. We're going to do our 10 best books of the year. How we do it? Every time is I call on you. You give me one book, you tell us a little bit about it, and we move on. If one of the books that someone calls is on your list, just cross it off. You can say this is on my list too, and then pick one of your backup picks, MJ, why don't you start us off?

MJ Franklin 27:22

I wanted to start with probably a divisive one, who knows it's all fours by Miranda July,

Traci Thomas 27:29

yes, I was hoping this wasn't gonna be on our list. Okay, okay. I think this book

MJ Franklin 27:35

is one of the most remarkable books I published this year. In terms of, I guess, to start with synopsis, it is about interdisciplinary artist who is very similar to Miranda July herself, but this character is unnamed, and at the start of the book, she decides to go on a road trip to New York, after a conversation about Parkers and drivers and what type of person she she is. And she has all this time off, and so she has booked this, like, two and a half week vacation in New York, and says she's decided that she's gonna drive there rather than fly. And she makes it just outside of her town, and instead of actually continuing the journey, she holds up at whole motel and then decides to, like, completely renovate it. I think she has, like, a $20,000 budget using royalties that she got after a commercial use part of her art or something. And so the book is divided into three sections. The first section is what is going on with the renovation of this hotel room. She starts this friendship with the interior designer who's making up this motel room. And keep saying hotel, but it's motel. So that's the first part the motel. The second part, she starts an affair with a mechanic named Davey who dreams of being a dancer. Oh my gosh. Third section, a lot is happening. And the third section is what happens when she goes home, she goes back to her life.

Traci Thomas 28:58

Is any of the spoilers? Yeah,

Greta Johnsen 29:00

most of it kind of, but also, I don't know, I mean, you would, it's probably a lot of that is on the back of the book.

MJ Franklin 29:07

Yeah, I don't think because so much happens into it, like and split split into these parts, I don't think they're spoilers, because so much happens in between. These are just kind of, like, anchors, yeah,

Greta Johnsen 29:19

pot acres. That's good way of putting it, but I will get

MJ Franklin 29:23

us out of plot territory to avoid spoilers and just say yes. The reason why I liked it is because Miranda, July has this ability to be absolutely zany and whimsical while also being deeply earnest. I don't think I knew at any point where we were going next in this story, and yet, there is such a human pathos to everything that's this character is experiencing. She's just doing things and like the approach is just askew. So this book, for me, was so thoughtful, but also destabilizing. And. It has this illicit thrill to it because it is explicit. It is steamy. There. It's graphic. I'm now just synonyms for graphic, which it extremely is. And it was one of those books that I just had so much fun reading while also being I found it also so thought provoking at the same time. So that was one of that was one of my favorite books. And I don't think I'm alone. It was like, one of the biggest books of the summer. It was also shortlisted for the National Book Award. For me, it was

Traci Thomas 30:35

on, y'all top 10. It's been on almost every it's it's one of the most, again, one of the sort of consensus books of the year. Credit, did you read it? I

Greta Johnsen 30:44

read it when I when you invited me on the show to talk. Best of I was like, Okay, I'm gonna read all fours. Oh, so you just read it. I just read it. I listened to the audiobook Miranda, July narrates it, which is incredible. I kind of hated reading it, but I like I found it to be such an uncomfortable experience, like she made so many choices that I just did not agree with and but the character made choices. Yeah, Miranda July, character made choices. However, to MJ point there, Miranda July is so weird and so exquisitely herself, and the earnestness and weirdness that comes through is a palette that I really admire and adore. So I think this is one that I was just deeply conflicted about, but I there is a lot I admire about it. For sure,

Traci Thomas 31:36

what I will say about this book that I have not read, and I hopefully will not read because I just, I know I won't like this, like, I don't have no you, I don't have to go here. But what's been interesting about this book is we do an awards at the stacks called the stackies, and this book is up for best book we didn't cover on the podcast, as well as most hated books. Yes, and I think that tracks to this tracks aggressively. So yeah, people love it or hate it. And I have yet to find like people who who don't understand the other side either. Like people who hate it are like, I get it. Everybody loves it. It was the worst. And people who love it are like, it was weird. I loved it. I understand why you hate it. So I feel like it's like, there's consensus on that too. Yeah. Okay, Greta, you're next. What's your pick? Oh

Greta Johnsen 32:20

my gosh. Okay, so I just want to say this was all very difficult, and I have a new list that I sort of pulled down, and here we are. I think, though, that my favorite of the year is Beauty Land by Marie Helene burcino, which Traci you asked us to also like, write up little for your website, of like, favorites, and I mentioned beauty land there too. Yeah, I thought this was just a phenomenal book. It kind of goes against what I was saying earlier, where, I guess there is a bit of something as afoot, but it's not hella plotty, like I remember recommending it to my mom, and she read it, and she was like, Greta. This isn't like, not a lot is had. This is much closer to like, girl walking through the woods, thinking about things than you normally like, but this one just landed so perfectly for me. It's about a girl who was born, I think it's in 1977 right as the Voyager spacecraft takes off, and it turns out she's actually like a alien who gets activated when she is, I think, seven, and her task is to, like, report back to humanity, to her home planet via fax machine, because 1980s and it's just, you know, I got to talk to Marie, Helene Bertino for nerd, and she talked about how, like, she was Really trying to embrace, like, the profound mundane, and this is a book that I just think is so beautiful on a sentence level, she is an outsider in this world, in a way that I think like any teenage girl could also relate to, because how awkward and terrible is it to be a teenage girl like there are just so many things about what it means to be human that Marie is able to convey through this lens of being an alien that is just like so exquisitely gorgeous and beautiful. And I just loved it so much. MJ, did you read it? I

MJ Franklin 34:10

read half of it. And this is on my two finished in squeeze in this month list. I thought you might recommend this. I remember how much you loved it. Yeah, listen to the episode. It was such a fun book club. And one trend that I'm seeing, not necessarily specifically in this year, but I feel like modern history, the trend is aliens, beauty, land, earthlings, which has one of the most unhinged endings that I'm still my jaw is still dropped at walking practice by Doki min worry Fauci does social mobility. And then also, there's at least one book about a girl who is or may or may not be an alien that's coming out next year. Aliens are everywhere. The trend is aliens interesting.

Traci Thomas 34:55

I love that. I have not read this either. It comes very highly recommended. From people in the stacks back who read it. They loved it. It's sort of another it's another book we didn't cover on the show, most beloved, not in the most hated category. Okay, I will go next, and I will continue on the outer space theme with a book that I love with my whole heart. I have been screaming about it all year. It is challenger by Adam Higginbotham. It's about the Challenger disaster. This book is exactly what I look for in a book when done well. This is the exact kind of non fiction I love. It's giving me history. It's giving me major capitalism failure, major government agency failure. It is giving me pulling on my heartstrings, meeting people who will unfortunately die. It is giving me cover up. It is giving me research detail. And the thing that this book does that is so hard to do and only the greats can do in film, television, books, whatever, but you've got to be an outstanding storyteller is we know where this story ends, and still, when we get to the part where the where the wheels are falling off, where we know you can't believe it's gonna happen, I get to the end of this book, and I'm just like, there's no way they launch on January 28 it's not possible. No, it's not we know that they cannot launch because we know about the O rings, we know about the weather, there's no way. And then they do the fucking countdown, and they fucking launch. And this book is just, I mean, so many people who have read it have been like, my stomach hurt as I was reading those sections, because you're sitting there being like, don't do it. Don't do it. And it's just, it's really hard, I think, to pull that off. And Adam Higginbotham, he understands how to write about a disaster in a way that is so compelling. So this is my, my, my baby,

MJ Franklin 36:50

Traci. I mentioned last year that I feel like there are books that I just there are your books like I just associate with you. Challenger is one of them. My question is, though he also wrote Chernobyl, the author Chernobyl, midnight and Chernobyl, would you recommend one to start one or the other? How do they compare? I

Traci Thomas 37:09

have not read midnight and Chernobyl. I plan to read it next year. I saw the show, and I just was like, Oh, I don't need to read it. The show is based off of Hay's book, but I will go back. I will go back and read it next year. Um, he came on this podcast and we talked, and one of the things that was funny is both of his books are set in 1986 because that's when both the disasters happened. Wow. So I told him in July of 1986 I was born to write about me like another human disaster, a failure of so many AG, but yeah, I mean, I think that I'm curious to see what he does next, if he just becomes like 1986 guy, or if he, if he branches out, but I don't think it matters which one you read first, or if it does, I guess, start with challenger, because that's what I did. But I don't think it matters.

MJ Franklin 38:01

I'm gonna start with challenge. Start with Challenger after this. That recommendation, Yep, totally so good.

Traci Thomas 38:06

Okay, Greta, you get to go next. Yep.

Greta Johnsen 38:09

It's how to tell when we will die on pain, disability and doom, which is a pretty ominous subtitle. It's by ohana, hedva and Traci. I know you really love this one too. So I'd be curious. What you think of it. I thought, I gosh, I have so many feelings about this one. I think even just for me personally, as I get older, it's been really helpful to learn more about disability and also just to recognize in my own life the inevitability of, like, people getting sick, and how to be able to talk about that, and to not just brush over terrible things that are happening in our lives, and, like, actually sit with them and register them and realize that there's like, another side of the health coin, and we're all going to experience that, and if we can actually address it for ourselves and for other people with some grace like that is like literally all we can do and will only make our lives better. And that's what I think this book captures really beautifully. It's not necessarily an easy read. It can be pretty intense, but it's I found it just very necessary. And also, there is one sentence in it that will live in my head forever, and it is, do not speak to me of self care, unless you also speak to me of revenge and like this is the energy I want to bring into the world all the fucking time. So yeah, that's why I love that book.

Traci Thomas 39:32

I think what's so interesting is you've touched on part of what I love about the book. But the other thing I love about the book, which is in that sentence, is Johanna hedva is funny as hell. Yes, they are constantly. They are not doing the thing, which is like, oh, woe is me, disability. They are doing the thing that's like, Bitch, buckle up. Yes. Yeah, you want to talk about disability. Let's talk about poop. Let's talk about mucus. Let's. Talk about the funny, icky stuff. And I think I've described this book as sort of second generation disability writing in the same way that, like, sort of first generation immigrant stories are like, I came to America, or I left my home and went and it sort of details what that is. And I feel like the second generation stories are sort of like, this is where I came from. Here's how I feel about it, or like, here's how that informs how I see the rest of the world, instead of being only the story like, and I think that's not a knock on other writing. It's more that that's how these stories are, you know, most palatable. First, we have to be taught everything, and then we get to have an opinion about it. And I think that what I love about this book is Johanna hedva has a fucking opinion. There is no chance you will read their work and think, Huh, I wonder what they think. Yes, I don't know what that felt like, totally like, totally just so the way that disability and pain and all of these things color the whole world, yes, in this book is just outstanding. I'm

Greta Johnsen 41:08

also, I'm also really grateful for their use of the phrase healthcare industrial complex. That's when I thought about a lot. That's

Traci Thomas 41:14

exactly right. Yeah, this highly recommend. Yeah, okay. MJ, what's next for you? Next

MJ Franklin 41:20

for me is a book called The coin by Yasmin Sahir. Oh, okay. Traci, shocked face. Is this expected, unexpected? Hated, loved. I DNF

Traci Thomas 41:32

this, but it was a weird experience. I was reading it, and as I was reading it, I was liking it, but then every time it was time to pick up a book to read. I never wanted to go back to my book. So I was like, oh. So I liked it. I thought it was quirky, weird. It feels like you, and it also has maybe the best cover, yes

Greta Johnsen 41:49

and outstanding. Oh, good. So

MJ Franklin 41:51

why do you love it? It is about a Palestinian woman in New York, and I think this is Traci. You've said that you love for fiction stories of unhinged women doing unhinged things, unhinged women doing unhinged things. School of literature. This woman is in New York, and she is up to shut nanigans. So she is a teacher at a private school, and she teaches mostly underprivileged students, but she quickly goes off script, and it's just like doing quote, unquote, unstructured free time. She's pseudo spying on each student's families by having the students write these journals and like they're writing these weird confessions that she should probably report stuff to, but she won't. So that's going on in school, and you're like, you should not be anywhere near children. She also is kind of dating this, like very rich pseudo Russian oligarch. And she's kind of dating him, I say because she does not like this man, but this man really likes her, and he is the only anchor that she has in New York. And so she's like, he wanted to date. And so I guess, for kind of dating. But then she starts also pseudo cheating on him with a homeless person that she sees in her neighborhood and that she recognizes, because she throws out a coat, and then the man picks up the coat and she sees him everywhere. She starts this like weird ish relationship with him, and he actually gets her to join a scheme where they are scalping Birkin bags. And I think she says that she is taking her taste and giving these expensive bags to unclassy people, because, like, it's very hard to buy a Birkin and there are all of these, like, rules of when they're available and who they'll give them to, or who can who has the privilege of buying them. So this is a lot of plot. Why I love this book is because it is one of those debuts. This is a debut, and it's shocking to me, because it is so sharp and well crafted, and I never knew what people meant when they said this word, but reading this book made me realize, and they say a book is assured her voice is, like, crystal clear. You get the sense that she's not just like, another crazy metaphor that I have when storytelling is like, there's the feeling that sometimes a book is just trying to get the story out there, squeezing the story out of the toothpaste. And there's another sense that, like, they're taking someone is taking that and just like crafting it. It's not just squeezing it out. It is like so immaculately rendered. The sentences are so funny. The writer that character, and Yasmine Sahir, is sharp, acerbic, knowing, thought provoking. It's you cringe, because again, like you, this character should not be doing any of the things that she's doing, but you can't put it down. Maybe once you do put it down, then you're like, it's too painful. I don't want to go back to it. But for me, it was just a debut that completely took me by surprise, and I was shocked by how. I was shocked that it was a debut based on how mid. Ridiculous and well crafted. It is okay,

Traci Thomas 45:02

I have to say I did DNF it, but I was liking it. It's not. It was a weird experience because I liked it, but I just never wanted to return to it. But then when I would I would read like, 20 pages, and look up and be like, Oh my god, I just read 20 pages. So I agree with everything you've said about it. Okay, oh my gosh. I don't know where to go next either I'm gonna go with my fate. I'm gonna stay on the trend of women behaving badly, making bad choices. I'm going with my queen dancing. There it is. I love this book. I know people have problems with the choices dancy's characters make. But you know what? It makes for great this is the story of Jane. She is a pseudo professor. I guess she's a professor, but I think she's not tenure something. Yeah, she's like an adjunct professor working on her second book, which is the quote, unquote, mulatto war and peace. She's struggling. Turns in the book, not a hit, according to her agent and or editor. And she decides I'm gonna sell out. I'm gonna work in Hollywood. She works for a black Hollywood executive who is trying to make the great mulatto television show. Jane herself is a great mulatto. She's married to a artist, Lenny, who just wants to make art that won't sell. Jane's obsessed with money. Jane's obsessed with mulattoes. Have I mentioned this? And Jane is house sitting for her mulatto director friend who makes blockbuster movies, and he's in Australia or something, and they're house sitting with her kids, and they're drinking his fancy wine. She's wearing his wife's fancy clothes. Jane makes bad decisions. Is anybody getting this yet from this story? It's a blast. It's a Rob I think there is not a person writing smarter about what it means to be mixed in America than Dan Zenna. I think there are other people who are who are close by special shout out to come and get it by Kylie Reed, which I thought does a lot of what this book does. And they're sort of wedged together in my brain. But I I just love I love dancing sensibilities. I love her jokes. I love her bullshit. I just love everything she puts on the page. I just she, she understands that. I described this book when I finished it as a thriller without death for kidnapping, right?

Greta Johnsen 47:42

Like, it's like, you're like, yes, break tension.

Traci Thomas 47:43

The stakes your brain. You're like, What the fuck is gonna happen? Something is afoot, okay? But it's like, the stakes are green smoothie at a Hollywood, like, executive meeting. Well,

MJ Franklin 47:57

she is so good at revealing just like, how everyday, ordinary life is weird and surreal, and she pokes fun of so much that should be made fun of. You said the word sensibility, and I think like dancy's sensibility is unparalleled, I also want to say your sensibility is unparalleled. I loved your interview with her, Traci, and you spoke. One thing that I learned in that interview, and you spoke so much about it, is why she says mulatto rather than biracial? That was such an interesting discussion. Sorry. To piggyback your recommendation with me, recommending you link to

Traci Thomas 48:32

that episode in the show notes. Folks, if you haven't, go ahead and listen to it, go ahead and listen to well, we're gonna link to everything in the show notes. But I'll put make that one really big.

Greta Johnsen 48:40

I will say though Traci, like, I actually think the stakes in this book are really high and like, I don't know, like, I don't think Jane is obsessed with money. I think one of the things that worked really well for me about color television is that Jane makes a series of like, incredibly unhinged and, like, problematic decisions. But you always know that it's because she is in such an economically precarious place, and she's just trying to find security and

Traci Thomas 49:07

money. She is obsessed with money because because of her predicament, sure, because of the place she's in, but like, Sure, her motivation and her focus is, how will I get the money to do what I

Greta Johnsen 49:19

That's true. I guess the distinction that I am making is that like she doesn't it's not like she wants to be rich for the sake of being rich. It's not like she's trying to be famous, like I read this in tandem with Ruman alums book entitlement this year, which I really did not like at all. And I think a really big reason for that was because it's similar in that, like a character is also she works for a billionaire, and so she's like, trying to figure out what she can get out of him essentially throughout the book, but you never get a sense like her motivations aren't there, and then it just feels really empty and kind of awful, in a way that it actually didn't with Jane, because it was like, No, she's worried about her. Kids and like, they need a place to live, you know? Yeah, yeah,

MJ Franklin 50:03

yeah, totally. The other element to the other stakes is, and this is why I loved it, too, is the sense of artistic fulfillment, right? She, one does not write the mulatto war and peace for purely financial gains, like she is someone who's trying to see the world and share how she sees the world with other people. She's an artist, and she's living with an artist that makes these non commercial, esoteric paintings. And so she's surrounded by art in various forms. And so there's, there's an artist story here as well. And I just the fact that we all three had different understandings of the stakes. I think speaks to how layered this book, yeah,

Traci Thomas 50:44

it is, yeah. I think this book didn't get nearly enough love. Again, a second half book that I thought sort of was, I think it got a lot of love. I don't want to say like it's on a lot of lists and things, but to me, I thought this book was, it was my it was my favorite read of the year. It might not be the best book I read this year, though, I would argue my taste is so impeccable. What I think is my favorite is the best, but that's a different episode. But yes, I just I adore this book. I adore dancing Senna. I knew people that main character, Maria lives rent free. In my head, I think about Maria at least once a week. I I can't say more, but I love her

MJ Franklin 51:23

talk about cutting. Maria has some one liners. I still think about a one liner that she says about, like a land of racial harmony, like her boyfriend is asking for, and she's like, we tried that. It's Brazil, and it didn't work. Like there are lines in that book I still think about, yes,

Traci Thomas 51:41

I'm obsessed. Okay, Greta, yes, do it.

Greta Johnsen 51:47

I am going to recommend, speaking of debuts, the Ministry of time by callian Brown. Oh, I wow. Thought this was an outstanding debut, and I thought it was marketed poorly, like Outlander was one of the biggest comparisons that people were making to this book. And it is time traveling, and there is a hot dude from the past, but this is, like, it gets pretty violent, and is, I would call it sci fi. It's like, I don't think it's a romance at all, actually, and it's time me, why me? The guy, the hot dude from the past, is a, I mean, you know, they would have called him like an explorer, and he's based on someone in real history. But the thing that I think this book does really beautifully is it explores colonialism, really, and, like, the history of like, are you an intrepid, like, person who's out there in a really, like, bold, interesting way, or are you actually just, like, figuring out how to oppress a lot of people? And it was just really, really good and plotty and interesting, and there was, like, a twist at the end that I didn't see coming. And I just really enjoyed this one

Traci Thomas 53:03

a lot. I've heard so many mixed things about this, have you? So I'm very, I've very, yeah, yeah.

Greta Johnsen 53:09

I think, like, I think it's a great debut. I think there are things about it that didn't totally work, but I think there's some really interesting elements, and I think it's totally worth reading for what it's worth. I was

MJ Franklin 53:19

just writing down some of the words you used to describe it because describe it, because I've heard, I have I've been struggling with how to place this book. I've heard people talk talking about it, but I'm like, What is this book about? And so I was like, leaning in, writing down your descriptions, and you it's not a romance, but I assume that, because you have to clarify, that there are romantic elements to it. Sure. Sci fi, time travel, colonialism, yeah, so much is happening here?

Greta Johnsen 53:43

Yes, a lot. Yes, there are a lot of really interesting elements. Yeah, I think it's, I thought it was great, and I think it's one of those where, like, I don't think it got enough, uh, accolades for for what it is. So I thought this would be a great opportunity to shout it out. I figured it wouldn't be on y'all list. So I know I brought it. It's

Traci Thomas 54:00

definitely not on mine. Okay? MJ, I

MJ Franklin 54:03

think we have a shared one, and I'm just gonna jump in. And that is martyr, okay, good.

Traci Thomas 54:10

I was nervous. None of us was gonna say it, okay.

Greta Johnsen 54:13

I did not put it on my list because I knew between the two of you we would get to yell about,

Traci Thomas 54:17

okay, okay, then

MJ Franklin 54:19

should we do a shared, like description of this? Because one, I feel like I've described this many times in very I can never capture it properly.

Greta Johnsen 54:27

I can never capture that's the thing, right? Let's

MJ Franklin 54:31

tag team it. Let's tag team it. And like, we'll all fill in the blanks. This is why we're a band.

Traci Thomas 54:37

But Christian leave this in. This is leave. Okay. You pick Marta, go. You start. No spoilers. Keep it as tight as possible,

because I feel like some of the

joy of this book is not really knowing what's going to happen and where it's going to go and so I don't hear you give away to. Much I hear you. Part

MJ Franklin 55:01

of the reason why I also hesitant to start off describing it is because I also described it for the book review podcast, and I started off that one, and I don't want to repeat

Traci Thomas 55:09

what do you want me to start? Okay, I'll start. I will start describing this. You guys can fill it in. This is a book about Cyrus, who's Iranian born, moves to the United States at two years old, to the Midwest, to the mid very important specified. He moved to the Midwest with his father. His mother has died in a shooting down of an airplane that was a passenger plane by the United States in an act of war that was considered an accident, an oopsie daisies by the United States, but killed hundreds of people, including children. Cyrus is obsessed with this idea of what his mother died for, which is how we sort of get to his idea of right? He wants to write about martyrs and become one himself. So he has this preoccupation that is sort of the general premise of the book. If you read the flap cover, which I don't recommend. There is more information about where this book goes, but I don't think, I don't think you need it. I

MJ Franklin 56:07

think that's a perfect description, and I think it gets at for me personally, I'm curious what everyone else thinks and why they love it, too. But the reason why I love this book is you just fall in love with the voice. That voice is hurt, but searching that voice is a little bit. That voice is struggling. And I left this book feeling like I will read a million other books about specifically Osiris. I will read a million books by COVID Akbar. He's a poet, and so you get the there's a poet's flair that is alive and well in this book. And I'm speaking very vaguely, because, again, I don't want to spoil anything, but in addition to the poet's voice, this book is just stuffed with interesting facts and Ramadan and

Traci Thomas 57:00

pop culture things, pop culture things characters. I forgot one piece of the story that I do think is important, that is not plot, but is about Cyrus. He is also in recovery from addiction. I didn't mention that, yeah, because that is important to his sort of headspace, and that is where the book starts. I think the first section is about him struggling and recovery related things, like reflecting on that. So that is important to

Greta Johnsen 57:26

your book well. And I think, too, I mean, I think it's worth noting that the title has an exclamation point in it, which just like, you know, in terms of registering vibes, like, yes, it is about murder hood, but like, there's an exclamation point here. And I think also, Traci, you said that, like, he's, he's trying to figure out, like, what is worth murdering yourself for? I think the other side of that, that is also very present and very beautiful in this book is what is worth living for. Like, how do you make a life that is worth like, how do you earn living when so many people don't even get that opportunity? Like, how do you do what you can with the life you have, which I think is also really gorgeous and just so like vibrant and urgent in this story.

Traci Thomas 58:07

Yes. And to plug Greta, we, the three of us talked about Marta earlier this year under that Yeah. And, and, I think one of the things that I love about this book is I'm such a critical person, I can always find a knit to pick with a piece of work. And I found plenty of knits in martyr. And yet, still, when someone says it, when I think about it, my hand immediately goes to my chest. I rub my chest because I feel so warmly about Cyrus, about Cyrus's uncle, who's a character about COVID Akbar, about the color yellow on the like it just this book. Despite things that I would change, there's nothing I would change about this book, because it gets to the feels, and it's so unique in that way that there can be things that I a monster don't like and still just devour and love and think so fondly of of this book. Yep, okay, we did it. Martyr, okay, martyr, thank God. I was getting nervous. I was like, we're really holding our cards close. I feel like with this, okay, well, I think this is my last pick, and then I think we agree on the 10th one, I'm pretty sure so I will do my third pick, which is a memoir, again, another book that did not get enough attention, according to me, another word for love by Carvel Wallace. This, to me, was far and away the memoir of the year. As far as I'm concerned, it is about Carvel Wallace. It's a memoir. The first section is about their boyhood as a black kid growing up with a mom who is struggling to maintain housing, with addiction, all sorts of things. He's in and out with his aunt and uncle who there's some abuse happening there. It's really a struggling, trauma filled childhood, I think, is how you would present the first part. Part two will. Skip over because I don't. It doesn't really help my narrative. The book, it's about it's about God. It's very small. It's like notes on God. It's very small. And then part three is all about healing, possibility, what to make of trauma, what is possible to make of trauma. And the writing is so beautiful. I thought it was funny. I read the book before it came out, and then as it started coming out, I started seeing reviews. People kept saying, Carvel Wallace, poet and author. I think at one point, Carvel is like, I appreciate this so much. I'm actually not a poet, but the writing feels that way. The writing feels so beautiful and poetic that you're like, of course, this is a poem. I mean, for people who love Kiese, layman, for people who love Hanif abdurhib, it is in conversation with both heavy and every single word that Hanif has ever written. It has that sort of earnestness and that purity. There's sex in this book too. There is a lot of exploration. There's a section about apology that I think about regularly that is so beautiful, but it's one of those books where it sort of starts off as a quote, unquote, typical trauma memoir, and you're just like, oh, tough life, poor kid. And then it becomes this whole other thing about like, what do we make of this? What can we make of a world? What is another word for love? And it is just so moving and so beautiful and and earnest, again, earnest for sure.

MJ Franklin 1:01:27

That's another trend that I'm seeing this year. I feel like there's a lot of earnestness in this year's literature, a lot of self searching, a lot of personal reckoning. I love it. That's Yes, that's in the MJ School of literary fiction, where nothing happens, but you're just with the character for a long time. This has been a good year for me. I

Traci Thomas 1:01:48

feel like this. I feel like earnestness is in is like so in right now, I had the pleasure of doing Hanif book event here in LA and I think that I referred to him as our great earnest King, and everyone in the audience laughed so hard because he is, I mean, between him and COVID, they are the dueling, like, there's a tear

Greta Johnsen 1:02:10

for you. You're welcome. Feast on it with me. Yeah.

Traci Thomas 1:02:13

And they're, like, best friends. And I'm, like, obsessed with their friendship and their earnest. It's that whole group of poets. It's just Clint Smith, it's just all these earnest men just writing poems about fatherhood and music. It's very precious. Okay, this brings us to our 10th pick. I'm assuming we're all on the same page here. We can just say it on the count of three. Oh,

Greta Johnsen 1:02:34

good. I was hoping you would do that. Here we go. 123,

Traci Thomas 1:02:38

James, yeah. Who wants to do it? Greta, you wanna set this one up? Oh

Greta Johnsen 1:02:42

my gosh, sure. Well, I mean, MJ kind of did earlier, but essentially, it's retelling of Huck Finn. You do not need to have read Huck Finn recently. I think that's an important specification. I've never read it. I think I read some of it in high school. This is, however, an inversion of Huck Finn's story, because this is told from the point of view of Jim, also known as James, who is the enslaved person who goes on adventures with Huck in the original Mark Twain book, there is, I think it's fair to say, a certain audacity to being like, Oh yeah, Mark Twain, like that classic, like canonical American literature. I'm gonna fuck with that a little bit. And Percival does it so exquisitely. This is such a smart book. There are so many different layers to unpack. It's also he spares no single word. I mean, this isn't a super long book, but it is just excellent. And it's so exciting to see something, I think, in the year 2024, and be like, Oh, Canon, like, we can just add it to the shelf and it's just there, and there's no question about it, and it's so beautiful and brilliant and smart and heartfelt, like all, just all the things,

MJ Franklin 1:03:54

yeah, one of the things that impresses me the most about this book is how it re it taps into an existing work and reshapes our existing cultural narratives, while also still standing on its own as its own unique, original, all star work of literature. I think that's a really hard thing to do, to tap into, to retell something and make your own voice and sensibility rise above and outside of that existing property, especially something as like core to the American canon as Huck Finn. He set himself up no small task, and he really takes a huge swing and knocks out of the park. And I don't know why I'm doing the sports metaphor, because I'm not

Traci Thomas 1:04:45

a sports person. I love it. You're doing great.

MJ Franklin 1:04:48

I think it's remarkable. And I think it also feels like this career capstone for a person, whatever, who knows how many books he has left in him. I hope many, many, many people. A

Traci Thomas 1:05:00

lot, because he at least has 30 years of life. So he's probably got another 30 books

MJ Franklin 1:05:03

Exactly. But he's he's been writing so many books that have gone under the radar, and people are coming to them more and more now, especially because of American fiction. So to see someone get their flowers and watch the like energy and excitement around this book. CO LS, in real time throughout this year has been remarkable.

Traci Thomas 1:05:23

Yeah. I think one of the things I love about this book is that I was sort of intimidated going in, because I had not read Huck Finn, and I started it, and I got two pages in, and I was like, Babe, if I start this, it'll be the only book I read all year. There's no way I'm not doing it. And I think, like when a book is really beloved, and like acclaimed, people can be worried that it's gonna be hard or challenging to read, difficult to get through, because it's, like, critically acclaimed. So it must be a lot. This book is so accessible. And I mean that, not in a pejorative way, but in a like, you pick it up, you read it in a day. It goes down so smooth. It's cold water in the desert, right? It's just like, I want it. I need it. Fill me up. It is funny, like personal Everett, it is so I mean, the thing about personal Everett and dancy Senna, who are husband and wife, and that I love about both of them, is that they are never precious with their characters. Both of them are sort of mean to their characters, which I love, like they have such a strong point of view as as the authorial voice that comes out because they make their characters do shit, and they make their characters say shit where you're just like, dancy hates dancy hates Jane as much as I do, right or like, and I feel like that comes out in this book. And then also the other thing I love, and I will not say any details, I will not spoil a thing. This book starts in one place, and when you get to the ending and you close the book, I literally was like, this is a different book, but in the best possible way, like how we got here, makes total sense. But where I started is not where I am at the ending, and that is really hard to do, especially in 200 and whatever pages, especially with a story we already know and a character we're already somewhat familiar with. Yeah,

MJ Franklin 1:07:05

there's a please bear with me as I form this thought now, but I have this taxonomy in my head of books that show like beautifully. They show a reckoning, they show an experience, etc, etc. They like capture a moment, and books that push and in terms of, like pushing a cultural script, pushing the bounds of what we think of as books, I think this book starts off as a book that shows it's a book that shows the other side of Huck Finn that we haven't seen. It's a book that shows the humanity of James in a way that we haven't seen. And by the end, it's a book that has pushed it's pushed cultural scripts. It's very cerebral. It is pushed our notions of philosophy. It has pushed it, yeah, I don't want to say more, but I think, yeah, I think that's a part of the that's a taxonomy I'm forming now, and I think that it's captured in this book.

Traci Thomas 1:08:01

I love that. Okay, that is our list. That's a really good list. I'm really proud of us. Way to go, everybody, we're gonna we are, like out of time, but we're gonna wrap up quickly. We're gonna quickly just we're not gonna do what we normally do, which is, like predictions for 2025, reading. I don't know stuff's gonna happen. We're gonna be wrong. But I do want you to each share maybe two books you're very excited about for 2025 we'll take hot air off the table, since that's a book that I invented

Greta Johnsen 1:08:34

Traci Thomas,

Traci Thomas 1:08:35

hot air by Marcy, whatever as told to you by Traci Thomas, published by Traci Thomas books. Inc, if you need a copy, come to my house. I'm the only one who can distribute

Greta Johnsen 1:08:49

my book. Mercy is going to be like, what the Yeah, she's

Traci Thomas 1:08:52

going to hate this. I don't know, Marcy. I'm sorry to Marcy in advance. I hope I like the book, because if I don't, this will be the last to hear. MJ, do you want to start with with, do you want to just give us two books you're excited about? You know, we don't take

MJ Franklin 1:09:07

turns. I'll start with, I have one, which is stag dance by Tori Peters. Tori Peters is the author of the transition baby, which is one of my all time favorites. I know next to nothing about stag dance. Other than that, it's coming out, and I will read anything that Tory Peters writes. So that's one book that I'm excited about that

Traci Thomas 1:09:28

was on our list for best books the year that it came out. Do you transition, baby? Yeah, that book, I think that was the book we all agreed on, actually, that year, I think there were three of us, and we all agreed on that one, even me,

MJ Franklin 1:09:39

I loved it. The stacks packs is giving taste. It's giving taste. That's the one that I wanted to mention.

Greta Johnsen 1:09:47

What about you? Greta, I have three, but I'll be really quick about them, because all of them are like, I know very little about them, but I'm really excited, just because they're authors I admire. The first one is Nettie, ok. Corophors newest book, death of the author, that comes out in January. And then the other two are new novels from Karen Russell and Kevin Wilson. KAREN RUSSELL wrote swamplandia Many years ago, and has written a couple other, I think mostly, short story collections since then, and is just like so weird and vibrant and wonderful. And Kevin Wilson's book is called Run for the hills. It comes out in May, and I'm pretty sure it's like a cross country road trip novel, but like, Kevin Wilson is just one of my all time favorite authors forever. So I am just like, so excited. I already have a galley of it, but I'm saving it because I'm like, too excited. I can't read it yet because it's a gift. I know that myself eventually. Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, just

Traci Thomas 1:10:42

like MJ said that there's books he associates with me. Kevin Wilson is an author I associate with. Oh, I'm honored that's You are the Kevin Wilson that's so beautiful. I obviously have too many books that I'm excited about. I will just plug. I wrote a list of most anticipated books. I think my list had like 41 books. Usually it has like 30. So I like, I'm really excited for 2025 that's great. I'm not even that excited. I think that I don't know. I feel like I'm I don't have, usually I go into the year being like, this is what I'm like. Last year I was like, I'm excited about James. This is what I'm excited about. This year I'm going into 2025 like, there's lots of things, and I could be excited about any of that. Like, I don't have a strong though now I have to be all in on hot air, because I've made I've made it my personality. I wonder if you're gonna hate it. I'm sorry. I can't wait. I probably am. I probably never talk about it again. So obviously, Imani Perry has a new book coming, black, black and blues, which I'm excited about. But I don't want to talk about that, because everybody already knows I love her. So I'm gonna skip that. There is a book, a book from critic Andrea long Chu called authority coming out cool. It's a collection of essays about who has the authority to talk about culture. And Chu is known for mean, nasty reviews that piece about Hana Yanagihara that was Andrea long Chu, if you guys think I'm mean, get ready. So good. So I'm thrilled for cult mean cultural criticism to come out. I will say this. Kaveh Akbar blurbed authority, and he posted about it, and I DM him. Was like, I'm so excited about this. And he said, Actually, you sort of remind me of Andrea long to and I was like, highest compliment. Also, what in it? What coming from an earnest king like you? I feel like I should feel bad.

Greta Johnsen 1:12:31

No, I think, no, we need that energy going into next year more than ever. That's

Traci Thomas 1:12:35

Yes, don't talk to me about care if you're

Greta Johnsen 1:12:37

not going to talk to me about, babe, let's fucking go and

Traci Thomas 1:12:41

then the other I'm gonna put these two together. There's a book called disposable, by Sarah Jones, and then a book called there is no place for us, by Brian Goldstone. Brian Goldstone is about the working. His book is about the working, homeless. And then disposable is about people who were sort of like thrown away in the reckoning with COVID, disabled people, people who were considered like pirates, was that word we use? What was the word we use for people who had to work, essential workers? Oh, sure. But I think all of these books are sort of about capitalism and the failure of the safe social safety net and all of these things, and they both look like, sort of in the School of maybe evicted a visible child, where they're following certain families who have dealt with this, which is another kind of non fiction King for me, and I think that is going to be a trend for the year, which is going to be about social safety net books. I think we're going to see a lot of books that deal with the failures of Since 2020 that are actually really good because they've had time to sort of marinate. So those are, those are mine. I have, I have way more on this list that I'm cutting because we're over time. But I know I'm

Greta Johnsen 1:13:45

panicking that I didn't get to mention, uh, Ruthie Thor mentioned Margot's got many troubles. Oh,

MJ Franklin 1:13:50

I had that on my list, too.

Greta Johnsen 1:13:52

Did you? Oh, man,

Traci Thomas 1:13:53

I've actually thought it would be on the list. I started it because I thought it would be on the list. And then I moved to my 2025, book. But I liked it. I just, I don't know that I needed I read 30 pages, and I'm just like, oh, this goes on more pages. I think,

Greta Johnsen 1:14:10

I think you would end up liking it. It's interesting because it ends up being a novel about the failure of social safety nets in a lot of ways, right? Because it's about a young mother who's like, cannot figure out how she can take care of her baby and also work and all of the things. And so she ends up starting an onlyfans

MJ Franklin 1:14:26

account. And that is also a book where something is afoot. She is thinking, thinking, thinking through this kind of whimsical, maximalist plot. Yes,

Traci Thomas 1:14:35

stop making me want to read 2024, books. I need to move on. Well, the

Greta Johnsen 1:14:40

only other thing I will say, the only other thing I will say about it, is that the audiobook is narrated by Al Fanning, who also is going to star as Margo in the Apple TV, plus adaptation. And if you are not enticed enough by that, the father, who's this like pro wrestler, guy named Jinx, will be played by Nick Offerman. So Oh. Margot. You are curious. Margot's father, so, father of the baby. So, no, no, correct. Margo. Thank you. So, yeah,

Traci Thomas 1:15:07

who's gonna play the father of the baby? The teacher?

Greta Johnsen 1:15:09

I don't know. I haven't seen a full casting list. I don't know. I feel like Adam

Traci Thomas 1:15:13

Scott has to, oh, my god, Big Adam Scott. And

Greta Johnsen 1:15:16

yeah, who knows? You never know with an adaptation if it'll even happen. But my fingers are crossed. It would be so much fun. Sorry. MJ, what were you gonna say,

MJ Franklin 1:15:24

since they that character, the father of the baby, the crosser, is such a particularly awful type of smarmy, like powerful and pathetic at the same time, like that, casting has to be spot on.

Traci Thomas 1:15:39

But yeah, technically in our top 10. Sorry, stop trying to. Stop trying to make it an 11. We did it. We did 10. I don't want to bump 1111. So unattractive to me. I'm sorry. I am. I am a top 10 purist ones in a row. But we will. We'll link to this book in the show notes. Want that fake 11th pick, but it is. It's not real. It's not official, unless you want to throw out something that you already put

Greta Johnsen 1:16:04

on. I mean, I would throw out Ministry of time, but it's okay. That's just my own panic happening. Wow,

Traci Thomas 1:16:09

I can't believe you put Ministry of time on over Margo, I know, realizing this, I pay,

Greta Johnsen 1:16:14

I did. I thought we'd have more time. Traci,

Traci Thomas 1:16:19

this is how this happens. You guys want to know how lists get made, the fallibility of lists, this is exactly what happened. Take it to Greta, though, because I stand by mine. That's fine. That's fine, everybody. Thank you both for being here. I think we've actually cemented that. Moving forward, it will be the three of us doing this. Great. I would love. I've been tossing around different people, but I think this is it. This is it.

Greta Johnsen 1:16:40

I love. I feel like we like, overlap really nicely, but then also branch off really nicely. Like, you know, like, this is a great like, someone is going to find something they love on this list, which is wonderful. And

Traci Thomas 1:16:50

if they don't, you're in the wrong place, reading the wrong books.

MJ Franklin 1:16:54

This is a group that believes in revenge. Remember, yes,

Traci Thomas 1:16:59

strongly, that is our energy we're taking into next year. Not only do we believe in it, that's our aspiration, is to get deeper into it. Thank you both so much for being here and everyone else we will see you in the stacks.

All right, y'all that does it for us. Thank you so much for listening, and thank you again to Greta Johnsen and MJ Franklin for joining the show. Do not forget the stacks book club pick for December is tacky by Rax King. We will be discussing the book on Wednesday, December 25 with Nora McInerney. If you love the show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/thestacks and join the stacks pack and check out my substack at tracithomas.substack.com. make sure you're subscribed to the stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, be sure to leave us a rating and a review for more from the stacks. Follow us on social media@thestackspod on Instagram, threads and Tiktok, and @thestackspod_ on Twitter, and you can check out our website at thestackspodcast.com. This episode of the stacks was edited by Christian Dueñas, with production assistance from Megan Caballero. Our graphic designer is Robin McCreight, and our theme music is from Tagirijus. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

]]>Ep. 350 The Best Books of 2024 with Greta Johnsen & MJ FranklinEp. 349 Testing Humanity with Mosab Abu TohaStacks AssistantWed, 11 Dec 2024 08:00:00 +0000https://www.thestackspodcast.com/2024/12/11/ep-349-mosab-abu-toha65d2b7a49de6215855aa3aaa:66084694f1e135566828a41a:6757284919dcba21b4db5384

This week, we’re joined by Mosab Abu Toha, Palestinian poet, activist, and author of the new collection Forest of Noise. In today’s episode, Mosab shares why he feels compelled to write during the ongoing genocide in Gaza and reflects on the urgent questions his work poses about Palestinian rights. He also discusses the meaning behind his book’s title and what he hopes readers will take away from this moving collection.

The Stacks Book Club pick for December is Tacky by Rax King. We will discuss the book on December 25th with Nora McInerny returning as our guest.

LISTEN NOW

Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Google Podcasts | Overcast | Stitcher | Transcript

  

Everything we talk about on today’s episode can be found below in the show notes and on Bookshop.org and Amazon.

To support The Stacks and find out more from this week’s sponsors, click here.

Connect with Mosab: Instagram | Website | Twitter
Connect with The Stacks: Instagram | Twitter | Shop | Patreon | Goodreads | Substack | Subscribe

To contribute to The Stacks, join The Stacks Pack, and get exclusive perks, check out our Patreon page. If you prefer to support the show with a one time contribution go to paypal.me/thestackspod.

The Stacks participates in affiliate programs. We receive a small commission when products are purchased through links on this website.

TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Traci Thomas 0:08

Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Traci Thomas, and today I am honored to welcome to the show Mosab Abu Toha. Mosab is an internationally acclaimed poet and the founder of the Edward Said library, Gaza's first English language library, his most recent poetry collection came out earlier this year. It's called forest of noise, and it offers a lyrical and deeply personal exploration in life in Gaza today, most of and I talk about his experiences as he left Gaza a year ago. We talk about the ongoing genocide, and we talk about his work in documenting the stories of his people. Remember, our book club pick for December is tacky by rax King. Nora McInerney will be back on Wednesday, December 25 to discuss the book with me, so be sure to read along and tune in. Quick reminder, everything we talk about on each episode can be found in the link in the show notes, if you love the stacks and you want inside access to it, plus a handful of seasonal perks. Now is your time to join the stacks pack. Go to patreon.com/the, stacks for just $5 a month, you get access to all of our year long goings on, like our Discord, our virtual book club bonus episodes, but right now, when you join, you can vote in our annual literary awards. We call them the stackies. If you join before the end of January, you will get access to my amazing reading spreadsheet tracker that I am obsessed with. Also the mega challenge is coming out later in December. You get that too. So now is definitely the time to join the stacks pack. On top of that, you can actually gift access to the stacks pack. Now. Finally, Patreon got their act together. If you go to patreon.com/the stacks slash gift, you can give access to this community to anyone in your life. It's a win, win, win. You win because you get to give an amazing gift. They win because they get the gift. And I win, because I get to keep making this podcast. So go to patreon.com/the stacks. Join. Sign up your book bestie. Everybody wins. Another fun perk. If you join the sex pack, you get a shout out on the show. So thank you so much to Megan Bogdan, Chelsea Ray Abate, Sherry D Meg and Maggie bowling. Thank you all so much. And for those of you who are less interested in joining the community, but maybe want some of those perks, maybe don't want all of that stuff, you can go to my newsletter, find out what I'm up to, get some hot takes from me on books and pop culture, like all of my thoughts on wicked go to Traci thomas.substack.com and subscribe to my newsletter, Unstacked. It'll go directly to your email inbox, and now it is time for my conversation with Mosab Abu Toha.

All right, everybody. I am so excited today I am joined by a poet, and it's not even Poetry Month, so that's how you know this collection is really, really good. I'm joined by Mo sab Abu Toha, whose new collection, forest of noise is it's a stunner. Most of Welcome to

Mosab Abu Toha 3:10

the stacks. Thank you, Traci. I'm happy to be with you. I'm

Traci Thomas 3:13

so happy to talk with you. Okay, let's start where we always start in about 30 seconds or so. Can you just generally give folks a sense of what's in this book.

Mosab Abu Toha 3:22

Yeah, in these books are poems that were written before the start of the genocide and after the start of the genocide. Poems that talk about people who did not survive, people who did survive while I was writing about them, but who are no longer with us, poems that keep happening, poems about air strikes, the massacring of families, the massacring of people who were sheltering in schools, and also poetry about my grandparents, who were experts from their city in 1948 and who died in the refugee camp.

Traci Thomas 3:54

Yeah. I mean, as people are listening to explain that this Poe, this collection, really does have such a wide variety of poems. It's almost like a memoir in poems. I don't know, does that resonate with you at all?

Speaker 1 4:10

Well, I believe it could be called So, yeah, okay.

Traci Thomas 4:13

Because some poets, you know, they get really uptight. They're like, these are poems. This isn't a memoir, like, these are things I've created, but in my sense of reading it and the research that I did on you, I was like, Yeah, this feels like things that happened in his life.

Speaker 1 4:27

Yeah. Well, it these poems are about things that happened, but the thing is that they keep happening. So you can, you can call them, you can call some of them part of a memoir in verse about some of my life, aspect as a child in the refugee camp, or someone who survived different wars, different air strikes with his wife and kids, but also things that keep happening to his neighbors, his friends, his so every every day, every day, there is something that. And that I wish I included in the book, because, but this is, this is an ongoing genocide. Yeah.

Traci Thomas 5:06

I mean, I think for folks who aren't familiar with your story, you are Palestinian. Obviously, we covered that. But in after the events that started, and the bombings and everything from Israel in 2023 you and your family came. You guys left, you guys, you know, went, tried to go to Egypt. You were detained. It was a whole rigmarole. You come to the United States on like a fellowship to, you know, as a writer, in danger all of these things, but through all of this, most of you're writing poems. Like, what was the urge for you when? Because, like, let me be honest, when something bad happens in my life, I'm like, Okay, I need a break. Like, I just can't imagine that you're writing all these incredible poems as you're living all of this horrible stuff and your neighbors and your family and your countrymen like so what was compelling you to keep writing when you could have easily not written and no one would have said, Ugh, most of what a quitter, you know, like everyone would have understood. So I'm wondering what it is in you that made you keep going.

Speaker 1 6:18

Well, first of all, it is a human urge to share that trauma, the pain that I see, that I witness every day. I mean, as I said, Traci, it's not something I'm not trying to think about, something that happened and that I'm still traumatized as a result of, but it's something that keeps happening I'm watching even after I left Gaza in December last year. So today is December 3, and it's the day when I entered Egypt after I left Gaza on December 2. So it's, it's these poems were not written about things that that came to an end. I hope that was the case, but they continue to happen. And unfortunately, there is no sign that they will. They will. They will end soon. And while whether I was still in Gaza or while I am outside of Gaza, whether in Egypt or now in the United States, there is, there is, there is not a single day which passed without me witnessing the massacring of my people. So so I can tell you that three days ago, my my my aunt's husband was found killed in Gaza. He was 82 years old. He went missing on early, early November, and three days ago, his son, my cousin, posted that that he found his father who was killed. And then I talked to my cousin, I wanted to add to just, just talk to him about how he found his father, because it's even dangerous to look for people who go missing. And he told me that I hang I hung his his photos in the street, and I left my phone number. If anyone saw this guy, please call me. And then someone called him, and he told him, I think I saw someone who looks like your father, and he had a similar beard. So he said, Okay, I'm he said, You are risking your life if you go to that area. And my cousin went to that area, and you know what he found? He found his father's head. That was the only thing he found. And he put it in a plastic bag, and he went back, and he buried his father, which was a head. So every day there is something like this, yeah, and I can't, I can't just sit like this, and think about this only, but I have to share how I feel as I see and I witness these things even from 5000 miles away.

Traci Thomas 8:29

Yeah. Do you ever feel in doing that, witnessing and sharing these stories with us, like through your art? Do you ever feel like it's too much for you.

Speaker 1 8:42

Well, I mean, it could be too much for an artist to write about these things, but it's not. It's nothing compared to what real people are facing every day. Sure, it's even I mean, the feelings that I have are much more devastating than the feelings that a father in Gaza right now is struggling How is how a father or a mother are struggling to find bread for their kids, to find water, to find clothes for their children. Now it's winter. I'm now in upstate in New York, and I have everything I need. I have blankets, I have clothes, I have gloves. But I mean, in Gaza, it's very cold right now, and people left their houses. Not only did they leave their houses? But their houses were bombed. And we see videos every day coming from Jabalia camp. I posted today a photo of how the Jabalia refugee camp looked like before Israel invaded it three months ago, and how it looked like today. And the people who post these things are soldiers. They want to show us. You know, you see what we can do. And not only did these people, like my family, not only did they leave their house, but their houses were bombed, and even when they left the houses, they couldn't carry much, many things with them, so they are left to live in a tent, just like my two sisters with their children, or my wife's family, who are living in tents right now, and they spent a day, you know, no. For someone to lend them a mattress or a blanket. So I can't compare the kind of things that I'm doing. I'm doing my part as an artist to witness and invite other people to witness the life that not only I lived, but my people are still living, and God knows, until when. Okay,

Traci Thomas 10:19

this might be a kind of a hard question, because I don't understand how poets make poems. But how do you take all of this that has happened, that is happening, that you know is going on within your own family, things that you've witnessed, of you know, the your people, and how do you distill it down to these poems, like some of these poems are so short and so good and so resonant, and so when you're looking and taking in all of this right, like you said, it's happening right now. But also, like you said, your grandparents from 1948 and it goes way before that, and you found ways to write these poems that work and feel accessible to readers. So what are you what are you thinking about? How are you thinking about writing poems? And I think that's a hard question, maybe because I think if you're a poet, it just happens in some ways, but I also know that you're super smart, so I know you are thinking about it too.

Speaker 1 11:25

Okay, people maybe describe me as a smart person, but you call me a super smart, super

Traci Thomas 11:30

smart. Yes, get that super

Speaker 1 11:35

well. The thing Traci, is that when you started talking to me about this, you mentioned that, you know, Israel started bombing people in October, 2023 but the fact is that we have been bombed for years and years. I myself remember exactly what happened in two in January, 2009 when I was wounded in an airstrike. I was 16 years old, I got two pieces of in my body, and they remained in my body for eight months. And even do these two pieces of shrapnel that the doctors extracted from my body, I kept them in my house until it was bombed, until our house was bombed in October last year, so and then in 2012 and 2014 for 51 days killed, killed three of my friends, you know, along with about 101,400 people, etc. So this is, this is a continuous nightmare for us. Yeah, it was a traumatizing experience. Our house was partially damaged. My alma mater was bombed just about the time when I was going to graduate. And then there was the May 2021, attacks. And that was the first time in my life that I went through an Israeli war as a father. So the accumulation of these experiences, you know, they they the poem came to me. I didn't go to the poem. I did not sit and said, Okay, I want to write a poem about this. No, I just had, I just had this amount of grief, this amount of pain, this amount of trauma that I found myself trying to understand what's happening with me as a human being. Sometimes I write something because I found out that I misunderstood something. I misunderstood the photo that I saw or a video of a child. I thought so. For example, one time I was sitting and watching with my wife a video, and I saw, I saw a small boy, maybe eight years old, and his shoulder was was severed, and one armrest was was was cut, very, very, horrifically. And I thought, you look Maram. My wife's name is Maram. So I said, Look, Maram, the boy is brave. I mean, He's not crying, even though he doesn't have any family member with him. And I thought, and then later, I found that the boy was was dead. So I was, I was deceived, you know, and I tried to so I found out that I did not really understand what was happening. So I was shocked to realize that this was not the case. So I wrote a poem, a poem about that that the moment of realization there is another one, the photo, the video, of a young man carrying the dead body of a girl. And I wrote about this in my in my book, first of noise that a young boy was carrying the dead body of a young, a younger girl, and he was running in the in the hospital. But I mean, why would someone run with the body of a dead girl? What is the point here? And then I thought that because people started to run after him, I thought that these people, because these are living people, they were giving some kind of life to this girl, because these living people could, yeah, you know, so you, are you? Are you are alive for a moment when living people run after you, yeah. So I, so, I was trying to understand these things. They are, these are very traumatizing experiences. And I was trying, you know, to we. Write about these to try and understand that trauma that I have to even to also share some of the things that people don't have access to. Not only did Israel, as I said this a million times, not only did Israel cut off electricity, water, fuel, medicine, not only did they block the entry of international journals, but they also cut off the internet and also phone signal, so people outside don't have access, not only to to news, because there are just lots, lots of pieces of news that we don't we cannot even report on, but also people haven't been able to experience these things firsthand and answer because, you know, Gaza has been under war. Palestine has been under occupation for 76 years. People don't have any knowledge of what it means to live under military occupation, what it means to be killed with your wife and kids, what it means to be even to remain under the rubble. This happened for to at least the three of my friends to have their bodies under the rubble for about a year. So people don't, don't can't imagine, you know, can't imagine. It's impossible for anyone who hasn't been in Gaza to imagine what, how it feels to be under the rubble for about a year. Yeah, so through poetry, I hope to to bring people to experience some of why, what I experience, what my people are still experiencing.

Traci Thomas 16:30

How are you how were you thinking about audience for this book? How are you thinking about who your readers were, and what were you trying to do to them. And I guess a sort of additional question is, does do you think about the audience for the entire book, or do you think about audience per poem?

Speaker 1 16:51

Well, I mean, my audiences are anyone who want to have a real lens, you know, a real view of what's happening, not not of what's happening, but what what has been happening in Palestine, what has been happening in Gaza for the past four now, 15, I would be, I would say, 15 months. And also, the book intends to make people feel before they start to try and understand what's happening. Because some people would say, you know, you know, it's complex. It's complicated. I don't know. I don't understand. Well, you know what? It's not important that you understand what is happening or why it is happening. At least have some kind of feeling, a human feeling, just to try and understand how I feel, how I have been feeling, how a mother or a father is feeling when they see their children, you know, waiting for a crumb of bread or maybe a maybe one millimeter of water to drink. So this is this, book is intended to anyone who wants to try and let their humanity work, to test their humanity. Just read the book and see the kind of life that we have been leading, the kind of experiences that we are re experiencing on a daily basis. Yeah, and then after you feel and you see that this is, this is this is horrible, this is terroristic, even then you try to understand why it's happening, how long it has been going on for, yeah.

Traci Thomas 18:30

So, so there's part of you that hopes that this is maybe, like some people's entry point into sort of getting a sense of, what if, what it is like to live in Gaza or Palestine now in the last 15 months, in the last 76 years? Yeah,

Speaker 1 18:46

well, I mean, I think this is the true of any artist, any writer, you know. I mean, part of me writes the poems because it is a personal experience, which is also a collective experience. I write, I document, because I want everyone, not only who are people who are living right now in this decade or next decade, but also for history. You know, when we read words by Jewish writers about what happened during the Holocaust, we learn and we are shocked by what the Nazis have been doing. And we read this after about 80 years after it happened, you know. And we are shocked, but now we are. We are reading something that is happening right now, which is more shocking to me, which is more shocking because we are reporting on it on the spot. We are people are filming what's happening, you know, journalists who are just opening their cameras and run in the street to show the world what's what's happening whenever an is an American president say that Israel has the right to defend itself? Give me one time. This is a question to anyone. Give me one time when any official from this this country, then I did, or even from Europe, give me one time when they said that the Palestinian people have have the right to something? Yeah. Yeah, one time, one example, when they said, the Palestinian people have the right to defend themselves. I want to to hear from anyone an answer to this question, do the Palestinian people now, who are living in the Gaza Strip, whose houses are being destroyed, or whose parents or his whose children are being mastered, do they have any kind of right to defend themselves against the Israeli soldiers who have been attacking Gaza for 15 months, and the Palestinians the West Bank, whose whose land, whose houses are being bombed every day and stolen. Do they have any right even to resist, to fight, to to push back against the Israeli forces or the settlers? You know, this is, this, is, this is a basic question. I mean, do we have, do we have any right, even to defend ourselves when we are attacked? You know, if I mean defending your yourself is a human right. I mean, if a dog attacks me, I would defend myself. If a stone attacks me, I would, I would fight the stone. If that tree jumps, you know, onto my bed to kill me, I would, I would resist, yeah, if my brother, if my brother, attacks me, I would resist. Yeah, you know, so why did, why do the Palestinians have no right to defend themselves, especially now, when they are doing we are being genocided on a daily basis, yeah? Just, just, just forget about the Nakba of 1948 just forget about the occupation. Let's talk about these months, these 14 months, 15 months, we have no any we have we don't have any single right even to do anything, you know, and we don't have any kind of support, any protection from the international community, who never stopped fueling this genocide by sending more and more weapons, and we see what these what these bombs, what these weapons are doing to children. We hated the children burned to people in tents to which they had to evacuate after they left their houses. And we saw the video of Shabani Talu, you know. So what is one thing that the Palestinian people failed to do, to tell the to show the whole world that this has been going on right for decades. This is not anything that's happening in Gaza, but now it's being documented more and more. Yeah, see the difference between now and before?

Traci Thomas 22:11

Gosh, I have so many follow up questions to what you just said. Okay. First, yes, you're correct. Second, because of the work that you're doing to sort of document what's going on in in about as real time as you can with a book, but you do it in your social media. You do it you know, you're doing it in real time also. But when I think about like this book, you know, it just can't come out tomorrow. That's just not how books work. They're a little slow on the uptake. But when you're thinking about sort of being the person who documents these moments in history for people outside of the experience, what sort of responsibility do you feel to make sure that you that you're getting it right? Is that something that you're even thinking about, or are you just thinking, this is what I'm seeing, this is what I'm gonna show or do you try to, sort of like, put context on it for your for your audience. Are you thinking at all about, sort of making sure that what you're putting out into the world is as resonant as possible? I guess? Well,

Speaker 1 23:13

I mean, the thing that I share on my social media, that I that I talk about when I'm talking to media, with a radio or TV I'm I'm presenting some of the examples of what has been happening in the past few days. So I, I I show what I saw. I translate in words what I saw in a video or in a picture. I give the context that that what's happening right now in Gaza is not a genocide against Palestinian people, but it is a genocide against refugees. 70% of the population in Gaza are refugees whose right to return to their houses is guaranteed by international law, by the United Nations. You know, there is resolution 194 that the Palestinian people, who will expect of their houses in 1948 have the right to return to their houses that they were expelled from. This is a right that my grandparents, who died in the refugee camp, had the right to do, and they couldn't do it. My father should do it. Me. I should do it. My son should do it. So Israel is genociding not only Palestinian people, not only human beings, but also worse than that, they are killing refugees, whose whose lives, whose right to return should be implemented by the world community. So I'm just, you know, sharing these things. I'm when I list the names of people who were killed in an earth I showed that this is not again. This is not a massacre against individuals. This is a massacre against a whole family in an earth November last year, my friend Ismail. Abu haben was killed in Nusrat in southern Gaza. He was living in northern Gaza. He had to evacuate, based on the Israeli orders, evacuation orders, he left for a nusayrat camp in southern Gaza. Sir November last year, he was killed with his father, with his mother, with his two children. His wife survived. He was also killed with his three children, three sisters. Two of them only survived, but another three sisters will kill now, the body of Ismail, his father and his sister, I'm 15 years old, are still buried under the rubble since last November. And I wrote a poem about that in my book, which is called right or left, about the girl who whose body remained under the rubble for for days and days, and then when we remove the rubble, we only find one small bone. It is a bone from her arm. But which? Which arm, the right or the left arm? We don't know. It doesn't matter, because we don't have any fingers even to see, you know, so I'm I'm not only writing about what happened, but also what happened after what happened, or even sometimes what was happening before the air strike. I showed the insides of the family houses before the houses were bombed on tops of the people who were living inside and yeah, the responses that I expected from people is to put themselves in the places of these Palestinian families. What if I was born in New York City or in Chicago, and you or someone else who was living in Chicago or New York City were born in Gaza, and we the people, which is the virtual me is looking and watching the videos of what's happening to you and your students and your families. What do you expect? What do you want from me to do if I were in your place and you were in my place, what do you expect me to do? So this is a question that everyone should be thinking about, right, right?

Traci Thomas 26:45

You're a poet. You're a writer. You care about words. I know this to be true. And as you were talking about, you know the right? Who has the right to do what? What rights do Palestinians have? I was thinking a little bit about sort of like rhetoric and political rhetoric, and the way that words are so, I mean, so powerful they can shape how we understand a people, a conflict, a place. I mean just the way that the word genocide has become so contentious when that's clearly what's happening is, you know, it's enough to make you think that you're going crazy, right? Like when all of a sudden a word that means something doesn't mean anything anymore, because of the way that words and rhetoric have shifted. So I'm wondering if you are thinking about that, as well as when you're writing your poems and you're going on media and you're talking about these things, how are you thinking about using words to sort of combat some of the rhetoric that is trying to erase Palestinians, or erase the rights of Palestinians, or the understanding of what's happening?

Speaker 1 28:02

You know, when I, when I write poetry, I don't use explicit words, for example, you know, or big terms like genocide or Holocaust or, right? Or, you know, a massacre or a school assist, I whatever the word is, plumbing, schools and universities, yeah. So I don't, I don't. I don't use terms, you know. I just show the picture to the people, and they should, they should decide what kind of war crime this is, you know. So I don't, I don't care about the words even more than you could. You can call it 100 times genocide. But the question is, this is a, this is a you a human question. Do we really have to wait until it is a complete genocide? According to your understanding of the word genocide, you have to wait until it is a complete genocide in order to step in and say, Oh, this is now a genocide after half of the population, or a quarter of the population in Gaza are killed, oh, it is a genocide. Okay? And then what do you do? Right? So it's, I liken this to a fire that is raging in your house, and then your neighbor comes and say, Oh, this is not a big fire. You know, you don't have to call the fire truck. It's not yet a big fire, okay, just, let's wait until it is a big fire, and then, oh, call the fire trucks. And then on the way, the fire trucks are blocked by maybe traffic or something, and then the whole house is down. This is what's happening. I mean, some people say, Oh, it's not a genocide, like the old man who was sitting opposite me on the train when I was in Paris two weeks ago. And when I told him that I'm from Gaza, he asked me, Where do you come from? And I told him, I'm from Gaza. I told him, I left Gaza two months after the start of the genocide. Oh, it's not a genocide. So I told him, Okay, give me one word. This is a question to everyone. Give me one word that describes what Israel is doing in Gaza right now. Give me one word, and I will tell you what's happening in Gaza. A destruction of about 70% of the infrastructure in Gaza, the killing of about according to Landsat journal, medical journal in the UK, of about 200,000 people, whether it's by airstrikes, by bullets, by starvation, but also by the lack of medicine, lack of medical care in Gaza, my my grandfather, the last grandfather I had, passed away in April this year, because there was no doctor. He was 71 years old. He was the only the last grandfather I had. And there was no doctor. There was no phone signal. There is what? There was no there were no ambulances in the refugee camp, and he just passed away. And who? How did he pass away? Because Israel is blocking the entry of anything, right? So the death, the death and killing of about 200,000 people is this not enough to call it a genocide, the destruction of 70% of Gaza, the killing of about 45,000 people, with through air strikes and tank shilling. This is not a genocide, the blocking of all international Germans from entering into Gaza. What? What is Israel hiding? Right? You know, and we talk about starvation. Why? Why on earth does Israel even have the capacity or even power to block and decide how many trucks enter Why did they say Hamas is steal it? I mean, let's say Hamas is steals the food truck. Why on earth do do you manage or control how many food trucks enter into Gaza? That's right, this is this is siege, this is genocide. Yes, and even Israel, even even Israel, has the right to decide how many food trucks enter into Gaza, how many what kind of chocolate enter into Gaza? What kind of fruit, what kind of vegetable, what kind of meat? On the other hand, no one is checking what kind of things are entering into Israel. What kind of bombs are entering into Israel? Yeah, yeah. This is a human question. I'm just, let's say I'm not Palestinian. I'm just looking at what's happening. Why does Israel control what enters into Gaza? How many and no one is on the other side? This controls or even police, what kind of weapons that are entering into Gaza, and you know what is entering into Gaza, but no one is there. Okay, this is enough today for you. Let's wait until tomorrow or until next week. So this is a human question, why is this happening like this? Yeah, but because it is a genocide everything the perpetrator, the occupier, can do. It is a genocide. They can do anything,

Traci Thomas 32:32

right? Okay, we're going to take a quick break, and then we're going to come back. All right, we're back. I want to shift a little bit and talk a little bit about your process as a writer. A question that I ask all the writers who come on this show is, how do you write? How many hours a day, how often do you have snacks and beverages? Do you have rituals around your writing? What are you writing on paper, computer, your phone, can you? Can you sort of set the scene for how you write? Yeah, well,

Speaker 1 33:09

I don't, I don't write on a regular basis. I think the last time I wrote a poem, it was maybe two weeks ago and before this. These before two weeks ago. Maybe the last time I wrote a poem about before that. It was a month before that. So I'm not writing on a regular basis, but I sometimes take notes, you know, something that sparks in my mind, an image that is really shocking. So, for example, there is something that I'm working on. I don't usually decide, okay, now I'm going to write to work on that image that that came into my mind I want, sometimes I just don't try it for a week or two weeks or three weeks. So there is, there is this image of someone who was killed in an airstrike, and there was nothing left in his body. So he was in his flat, and there was the airstrike. His hand flew into his neighbor's house. His head was crushed under the ceiling and his feet, because it happened, by the way, what in October last year, my brother took a photo, and unfortunately, we have the photo of a foot of of a neighbor of ours, which he flew from about 200 meters away. We found it on on the door to our house. So I have, I because that that is a shocking image. I still have it on my phone, and I asked my question, you know this, this is a point that I'm working on that this, this person who was killed in that Israel says that my my foot landed on our neighbors doorsteps. My head was crushed under the ceiling. My fingers maybe hit the walls of our adjacent school, but where is me? I did not fall. So that's a that's a poem that in the making. I didn't even start writing it, but I had this image. Year, yeah, but I should write about it. I don't usually sit and Okay, today morning I will. I don't usually do this. Maybe this can work for essays. Could work for short stories or fiction, but for poems, sometimes the poem stays in your mind. It haunts you until you face it. So this is, this is, this is my writing process. And I usually write something. I take notes. I love to work on my laptop. I don't usually use pen and paper unless, you know, unless I was, I mean, except when I was in Gaza, you know, we didn't have electricity to charge the phones or the laptops. So I was taking notes. I still have notes, you know, that I didn't work on even after October 7, until I was abducted on November 19, last year, I was keeping a journal, and when I was abducted at the checkpoint, I the notebook was in my handbag. And when I was abducted, the Israeli soldiers ordered me to drop the bags so my notebook was in the bag that I dropped at the checkpoint. Three days later, when I was released, they dropped me at the same checkpoint, and I found my handbag still

Traci Thomas 36:08

was the notebook still in it? Yes, okay, yeah, but

Speaker 1 36:12

it was a little wet because of the weather, yeah. So I still have that notebook, wow. And I didn't even go back and read what I what I wrote until today? Oh, wow. Yeah, incredible. The last entry was November 18, one day before I was abducted.

Traci Thomas 36:27

Have you kept a new journal since then? No,

Speaker 1 36:31

no, because, because I didn't have time even to write my own stuff, unless and except when I was writing pieces for the New York Times or The New Yorker, but other than that, I wasn't. I don't keep a journal. I don't take a lot of notes every day because I'm non stop translating and breaking news from Gaza, posting videos and pictures, posting please, from friends you know, communicating with my my my father and my siblings in the Gaza Strip, my sisters and their children, my friends, my students. So I even don't have time, you know, to sit and Okay, today I'm going to write something. I don't have that kind of luxury. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 37:10

you skipped over this part, and I got to get everybody on record on this. Do you have any snacks and beverages that you write with? And if not, can you just share some snacks and beverages that you love? I can't live without tea. What kind of tea? It's a black tea. My guy it

Speaker 1 37:29

would. I mean, we have our own tea. It's snowing outside in Syracuse. Oh, my goodness, everything is white. I'm so I'm I'm so thankful that it does not snow in Gaza. Realize that yeah, lies.

Traci Thomas 37:43

I live in Los Angeles, so I cannot relate to snowing.

Speaker 1 37:48

Well, I believe I was in I was in San Francisco a few days ago, and the weather there is similar to the weather in Gaza. So okay, in winter, it could be too cold, but it doesn't snow. I've never seen snow in Gaza all my life. So my most beloved beverage is tea, black tea, I would say it's very close to the English breakfast tea.

Traci Thomas 38:12

English breakfast. That's when I drink and

Speaker 1 38:14

I add and I add with this age, and this is very common in Gaza, dried sage leaves. Oh,

Traci Thomas 38:21

dried sage leaves. Okay, wait, I have sage in my refrigerator that I did not use at Thanksgiving time that I'm gonna dry and try. I'm gonna

Speaker 1 38:31

try it. We'll see you missed. You missed Allah, okay, I'm gonna try

Traci Thomas 38:35

it and see. Okay. Wait, will you talk to us a little bit about the title and the cover of the book. Were you involved at all in the cover process? How did you the title? Is a line from, from one of the poems. How do you pick it

Speaker 1 38:49

is it is even the title of the title? In the title, yeah, forest of noise. You know about the holes on the ground, in the street, every, every, every, every hole in the ground, in the asphalt, in the tarmac, is a forest of noise, because in Gaza, there is not a single moment when there was no drones buzzing, sound roar, one of 16 you Know, the helicopters sound in the sky, the gun boats, you know, screams of children, lovely words from a father to a mother, the hunks of cars. So it's, it's very noisy in Gaza, especially now. So that's, that's forest of noise. And I think every poem is a forest of noise. You know, the the side, the ambulance sirens, the air strike, the artillery shilling. I have on my phone because I'm now I'm recording so I have on my phone. I have recordings of sound. I have, I have recordings of that run as long as seven hours. I have five minutes long recording. I'm not sure if I have it on my iPad, of of artillery shilling on October, on november 17, which was my 31st birthday. You

Speaker 1 40:28

I sometimes when I go and read, I present my book, I play some part of this voice memo, and I would tell people to pay attention to three different kinds of sound in this segment. The first one is the sound of the artillery shell when it's fired, and then the shells wearing sound in the sky over us, and then the sound of the explosion itself. It.

Speaker 1 41:07

So it is. It is a forest of noise, not only in on the ground, but also in the sky over us. It is a forest of noise. Yeah. So and we as for the artwork, I was not involved in the creation of this artwork. But I really loved it because it reflects the opening. For me, it reflects the opening of the book, which says that every every child in Gaza is me, every mother and father is me. Every house is my heart, every tree is my leg, every plant is my arm, every flower is my eye. Every hole in the air is my wound. So and and when I published, when it was the publication day of the book, I posted that this hand, which looks like a tree brand, yeah, and these are some leaves. I invited people to think that this is a handshake that they should place their the palm of their hand over my book to say hi to me before we meet. Maybe

Traci Thomas 42:12

I love that. Okay, you are writing to do so much right, like you have so much that you are trying to do with your work, because there is so much to show the world and to document and to honor for other people, both living and people who have passed, who are killed. And so I'm wondering, how do you say, Okay, I'm done with this book. It's ready. Because, like you said, everything is ongoing. This, the book might be done, but these poems are speaking to things that maybe happened, but are also happening. So how do you say here? John Freeman, my dear editor, take this. I'm done with it. Like, what is that like for you,

Speaker 1 43:02

I think, I think the poems that are in that are in the book, represent so many diverse experiences of what it means to be someone from Gaza. You know, poems from times when a father left his house to buy some bread for his kids, but news of his death made at home. This is a poem, by the way, so news of his death made at home, but not the bread. No bread. Death sits to eat. Whoever remains in the WHO death sets to eat, Whoever remains of the kids. No need for a table, no need for bread. There is a this is part of under the rubble long poem. There is a poem about the family gathering in Ramadan in 2024 in the in the kitchen, the people were missing in the house. The kitchen was missing in the house, the house was missing, and the rubble of the house is waiting for a sunset or sunrise. Sorry, so and there is a poem about my abduction. There is a poem about me watching a helicopter firing a rocket, you know, at a building that was just a few 100 meters away from me when I was eight years old, you know. So these are, there are poems about before October 7, before even, I mean, that are 20 years old when I was even more when I was eight years old, that was about, I would say, 24 years old. Sorry, 24 years ago. So there are poems from different different times, from different perspectives, the perspective of my father, sorry, my grandfather and my grandmother when my father was a young boy in the refugee camp. So there was some kind of reminiscence when my grandfather was remembering the time when he was a groom, when he got married to my grandmother. I didn't see them. Of course, I never met my grandfather, by the way, he died even before my father got married. So I write about. These members of my family, my my students, my neighbors. So I think, I think the book has so many, so many things that represent the Palestinian experience, especially during the ongoing genocide in the Gaza Strip. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 45:16

okay, I want to talk quickly. We have a little bit of time about the library. It was destroyed. As you mentioned, there's two of them, the Edward Said library, English language. I mean, like, I don't even know if I have a good question about it. I just, I feel like it's, I would like to have you have the opportunity to speak about what, what you built, and also what that loss looks like, especially, again, as a person who makes books and loves books and loves, from what I can tell of you, a person who is committed to documentation, and in some ways is sort of like a cultural historian for for your people and for for Gaza. So I'm just curious, sort of what that what that has been. Yeah,

Speaker 1 46:00

thank you for this question. And I think my contribution to the English, to the book community, is a response on my part to the destruction of my library, and also to the destruction of the Edward Said, public libraries, two branches, one in North Gaza, one in Gaza City, and the loss that I had felt was not only the the material loss of the books and the shelves and the space itself, but it's also of the time that I could have spent there with my students, with my friends, with my community, and it's also the loss of lives of so many people who used to come to the libraries, and I'm sure that there are So many people that I don't know about who were killed or who were injured, and it's also about the loss of a dear librarian who was killed, mostly, who was killed with her parents and her siblings last December. So it is a huge loss for me when I when I start to talk about the libraries, it is a spiritual loss. It is an emotional loss. It is a, yeah, a loss of so many people, you know, librarians, books, children who used to come to the libraries. And one reason why I created the libraries was then the immense need that we should have a space where people, especially then, could gather in a space that is that is encircled by books. It is a way to break the siege, which Israel has been imposing since two since 2007 people have never been allowed, mainly, usually to leave Gaza, you know, to travel to study, to just, you know, to do some tourism. And on the on the other hand, people from outside that have never been allowed to visit Gaza unless they were, you know, parts of international delegations, or maybe doctors or so. I was bringing the outside world to the people in my in my cities and and it is heartbreaking that that we have been reading books by American authors, many of whom have been silent about what's happening. Yeah. And also Western authors, not only American authors, yeah,

Traci Thomas 48:15

okay, I have three more questions, one of them, I hope you answer, but I guess you don't have to. Which is, do you have a favorite poem in the collection?

Speaker 1 48:28

I mean, it could be the long poem under the rubble, because it has so many different parts that speak to so many experiences. But if I mean it is, it is a series of poems under one title, but a very, very favorite poem would be right or left.

Traci Thomas 48:44

Okay, I like the one. Can I tell you my favorite? Please? My favorite. I liked a lot of them. I actually had to go back and I took notes on which ones I liked, and then I went back and reread and I decided that I had a favorite, but it was down to kind of a few. But no art I loved. No art. Yeah,

Speaker 1 49:01

that's another favorite. Okay, good, okay, after Elizabeth, yeah, I love it. But I mean, because that poem, you know, that poem, by the way, no art, was written before October 7. About that, because in the poem, I said, I said I lost the three friends to war, a city to darkness and a language to feel that was before October 7. Because after October 7, I lost at least 300 friends, whether they are neighbors, whether they are school friends, whether they are people from the neighborhood. So but that poem right or left, why I chose it? It's because about, you know, sister of a friend of mine, whose body remain undeveloped until today.

Traci Thomas 49:39

Okay, you mentioned earlier that you know you were thinking about this book as maybe an entry point for people, so for people who read forest of noise and they love it, what other books would you recommend to them that are in conversation with your work?

Speaker 1 49:55

I don't want to be selfish, but my first book, my first. Book things you may find it in my ear is a necessary read when it comes to reading forest of noise, because many of the poems in the first book also happened again and again during the ongoing genocide. For example, shrapnel looking for laughter. It's what's it is my, I would say my favorite poem in that book. It is about the family who was killed under the rebel of their house, the whole family, the father, the mother and the four children, the young, the oldest was 10 years old, and they were living just two kilometers away from us. And I was a father, and I was seeing these this thing as if it's as if it's happening, if it was happening to me. So other books would be mahamud de riches, memory for for good fullness, which is a prose book about the siege on Beirut in 1982 books by by atta Babu, save the drone eats with me. There is from 2014 Israel 2014 Israeli attacks men in the sun, by Hassan kanafani, so they are not. I mean this, men in the sun or returning to Haifa are not necessarily in direct conversation with the book, but they are very important to understanding the Palestinian catastrophe of 1948 and even after you know books by other Palestinian American writers like Naomi shihabnai, like Lena halato FAU, won the National Book Award this month. Congratulations. Hallah aliyan, Lisa saw her. Maja Suzanne, Abu Hawa to you know, who wrote mornings in Jenin about the massacre in the Jenin refugee camp. And there are so many other writers. Of course, the work of Edward said is a must read. Rashid Khalidi, the 100 year war on Palestine, which a few days ago, a photo of Biden. I saw that book. What a joke. Well, I wish, I wish, I wish he could just grab a copy of my book, yes, and read a poem. Well, Obama's

Traci Thomas 51:55

list hasn't come out yet, so maybe you'll be on it. That would be very Obama. You know, because he does one book, he always does his list. He does two. It's probably coming next week. I'm gonna, I'm gonna try to just manifest. I

Speaker 1 52:08

didn't, I didn't care. I don't care. I mean, whether he or Biden, but I mean, at least they should, they should read some of the poems. This is to me. Is not about me. This book is not about me, by the way. No, it is about, it is about my family, my people, my students. You know, it is about, it is about a genocide that is, that is ongoing, yeah, you know, just, I mean, I said that more than once. Just imagine you are reading Anne Frank's diary while she was hiding from the Nazis in Amsterdam. Just imagine you're reading something like this, right,

Traci Thomas 52:41

right? You know, yeah, okay. My last question, if you could have one person dead or alive read this book, who would you want it to be

Mosab Abu Toha 52:52

my grandfather?

Traci Thomas 52:54

Yeah, yeah. I

Speaker 1 52:56

never met my grandfather. As I said, He died at the age of 59 Yeah, he was very young. I mean, he died in the refugee camp. And the reason why he died, as my father told me, he contracted diabetes after the Israeli soldiers one day in the late 1970s broke into his house, and they've terrified him. Terrorized him, not terrified he. Terrorized him and his children and wife while they were sleeping. It was 3am my father told me when that happened, and after that day, my grandfather's health started to deteriorate until he was tied to a wheelchair, and he died in 1984 three years before my father got married. So I dedicate this book to my I wish my grandfather could read this book, because I wrote something about him in the book. And also in my first book, I wrote my grandfather was a terrorist, and also my grandfather and home about his push to my grandfather used to count the days for return with his fingers. Then he started to use the stones, the trees, the plants. Then absence turned out to be too long, you know. Then he started using people to count, you know, yeah. And, you know, he died 636, years after the Nakba, and for us now, it's over 70 years. So I wish my grandfather could read some of my poems, because I write in his honor too.

Traci Thomas 54:19

Most of thank you so much for being here. Thank you for talking with us about the book. It is so fantastic people listening. You can get this book wherever you get your books. It is out in the world now. It would make a fantastic holiday present for people in your lives. It will make a fantastic book for your own shelves. It would make a fantastic book to make sure that your libraries have in stock, make sure that you request them at your local libraries. Most up. Thank you so much for being here.

Mosab Abu Toha 54:50

Thank you, Traci. I really love talking to you

Traci Thomas 54:53

Same, and everyone else, we will see you in The Stacks.

All right, y'all that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening, and thank you again to Mosab for joining the show. I'd also like to thank Michiko Clark for helping to make this conversation possible. Don't forget the stacks book club pick for December is tacky by rax King, and we will be discussing the book on Wednesday, December 25 Yes, Christmas, yes. We're that kind of tacky with Nora McInerney. If you love the show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/thestacks and join the stacks pack and check out my substack at tracithomas.substack.com. make sure you're subscribed to the stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, be sure to leave us a rating and a review for more from the stacks. Follow us on social media@thestackspod on Instagram, threads and Tiktok, and @thestackspod_ on Twitter, and you can check out our website at thestackspodcast.com. This episode of the stacks was edited by Christian Dueñas, with production assistance from Megan Caballero. Our graphic designer is Robin McCreight, and our theme music is from Tagirijus. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

]]>Ep. 349 Testing Humanity with Mosab Abu TohaEp. 348 I Will Always Be a Grief Enthusiast with Nora McInernyStacks AssistantWed, 04 Dec 2024 08:00:00 +0000https://www.thestackspodcast.com/2024/12/04/ep-348-nora-mcinerny65d2b7a49de6215855aa3aaa:66084694f1e135566828a41a:674da431c6201d6dd4efdf82

This week, we’re joined by Nora McInerny, author of Bad Vibes Only: (and Other Things I Bring to the Table) and host of Terrible, Thanks for Asking. In today’s episode, we discuss Nora’s approach to grief and why she rejects the label of “grief person.” She also shares the books about grief that have meant the most to her, as well as the genre that never fails to make her rage.

The Stacks Book Club pick for December is Tacky by Rax King. We will discuss the book on December 25th with Nora McInerny returning as our guest.

LISTEN NOW

Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Google Podcasts | Overcast | Stitcher | Transcript

  

Everything we talk about on today’s episode can be found below in the show notes and on Bookshop.org and Amazon.

To support The Stacks and find out more from this week’s sponsors, click here.

Connect with Nora: Instagram | Website | Substack
Connect with The Stacks: Instagram | Twitter | Shop | Patreon | Goodreads | Substack | Subscribe

To contribute to The Stacks, join The Stacks Pack, and get exclusive perks, check out our Patreon page. If you prefer to support the show with a one time contribution go to paypal.me/thestackspod.

The Stacks participates in affiliate programs. We receive a small commission when products are purchased through links on this website.

TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Traci Thomas 0:09

Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Traci Thomas, and today I am thrilled to welcome to the show. Nora McInerney. Nora is a best selling author and the host of the award winning podcast, terrible. Thanks for asking. Where she shares stories about grief, resilience and everything in between. She's the author of several books, including it's okay to laugh. Crying is cool too, and no happy endings and her latest bad vibes only today, Nora and I talk about what it's like to be a grief person, how she deals with others expectations, and what it's like to move on. In case you missed it, our book club pick for December is tacky love letters to the worst culture we have to offer by rax King. We will be discussing the book on Wednesday, December 25 Yes, Christmas, with Nora McInerney. Everything we talk about on each episode of the stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. And if you love this podcast and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/the stacks and join the stacks. Pack. Also, it is the holiday season, and it's worth mentioning, you can now gift subscriptions to the stacks pack to other book lovers in your life. For just $5 a month, you or your recipient, will get to be part of the best bookish discord that has ever existed. You will get to listen to monthly bonus episodes. You will get to join monthly virtual book club meetups. You will get to vote for our literary award called the stackies. You will get to participate in the mega challenge. I am telling you it is just $5 a month, and you get so much good stuff. And you get to know that by joining the stacks pack, you make it possible for me to make this show every single week. Another perk, you get a shout out on the podcast. So shout out to our newest members, Paige, Jen shoot, Amber Larson and Rachel Patterson. Thank you all so so much. And for those of you listening at home who are like, I don't want all that stuff, but I do want to support the show. I've got something for you. You can get my newsletter directly to your inbox. All you have to do is go to Traci thomas.substack.com and click subscribe. One more thing you can do, and this one's totally free, is you can make sure you are subscribed to this podcast. You can share it with a friend. You can tell them about it in person. You could also rate the show and leave a review on Spotify and slash or Apple podcasts. All of those things also help. And again, are totally free. So thank you to everyone who helps make this show possible. And now it's time for my conversation with Nora McInerney. All

right, everybody. I'm so excited. I'm joined today by, I think, my newest best friend on the face of the earth, someone that I have so much in common with in the craziest, weirdest ways which we will talk about, a author, a podcaster, a person that you probably already know and love, the wonderful Nora McInerney, Nora, welcome to the stacks.

Nora McInerny 3:00

Oh. Thank you for having me. Thank you for saying my last name correctly. And I just want to say to all your former best friends, yes, you had your time. Yeah, you've had your time, and you go to this Goodbye forever.

Traci Thomas 3:11

I'll miss you sometimes, sort of likely not, yeah. Okay, Nora, tell the people a little bit about yourself. I know this is the worst part, but just in case, the worst part just look a little do a little bit yes,

Speaker 1 3:26

yes. I am the writer of funny books about sad things, and the creator of podcasts that kind of do the same. And my entire career as I know it right now, for the past decade, was the result of the most successful piece of writing that I will ever do, and it wasn't even my own project. It was a co write. My late husband. I never have said late husband. He's not fucking late. He's dead. My dead husband, my first husband, Aaron permort and I wrote his obituary together in 2014 when he was on hospice for brain cancer. The night he entered hospice, he really wanted to watch Game of Thrones. And I was like, will you help me with this? I was like, just in case, because, like, I don't want to do this on my own. And went viral, like, 2014 viral, Traci and it that's real viral too. Real viral. And you know what? It led people to my Tumblr that's very 2014, and you know what that led to a book deal? And that is the question that people always want to know about somebody else's career, which is like, how did you get there? The only route that works, fall in love, have them die, and then the whole time that they were dying, have a tumbler that is mostly password protected, because it's kind of like a journal for you and your family and then, and then just go from there, okay, then just be so depressed you can't go to work and sort of quit your job. But also, like, you know, they kind of wanted you to. Believe I don't know. So now I am. I'm the host of a podcast called terrible, thanks for asking, and a podcast called it's going to be okay. And I've written five books that are about life and grief and kind of everything in between. And I'm so sorry that my elevator pitch is like the Willy Wonka elevator.

Traci Thomas 5:22

No, it's great. It's great. I nailed it. I know you nailed it. You're from

Speaker 1 5:26

the Midwest, from Minneapolis, Minneapolis, Minnesota,

Traci Thomas 5:29

but now you're in Arizona.

Speaker 1 5:31

I'm in Phoenix, Arizona. I am an early early bird, early snow bird. So, and I moved here when I was 37 and it was the pandemic, and I went to a store Traci. I was wearing a mask, and the store laughing, but I'm already laughs You are right now. And I was like, oh, you know, I, you know, just moved here, and this girl goes, oh, did you retire? And I was like, I'm in a 32nd

Traci Thomas 5:59

myself. Do you need my ID? Do you want it? I

Speaker 1 6:01

was like, I yeah, I did. I was like, How old do you think I am? But when I was 22 anyone who was over, you know, 25 I was like, Are you dead?

Traci Thomas 6:12

Yeah, are you are you an elder? Do you need help? Are you okay? Are you lost? Yeah, um, okay, this is my big question for you. It's, I really have, like, one question for you, and I'm going to ask it in like seven different ways, but here's the first attempt. Yeah, do you get tired of being the grief person?

Speaker 1 6:30

Yeah, because I don't think I am, and I never tried to be, but

Traci Thomas 6:35

you are to so many people. You're the person where it's like, when someone's husband dies, or someone this dies or something. It's like, Oh, do you know Nora McInerney, like, you should listen to our podcast so you don't think you're a grief person.

Speaker 1 6:47

I don't. I don't think I'm a grief person. Necessarily. I've called myself like a reluctant like, you know, grief advocate. But and yet, Traci, everything I do always has a sprinkle of sadness to it. I can't help it. Were you

Traci Thomas 7:02

always, but you were not always, because I've read your books and you talk about how when you were young, you were like, nothing bad ever happens.

Speaker 1 7:09

Yeah. And I was also just like, had this thread of like, Dread running through me, like and and anxiety and depression. Like, I was like, a depressed little kid, too interesting, and nothing had happened, and yet I would, you know, I couldn't go to a sleepover, because then my family would die.

Traci Thomas 7:28

This was, obviously, this is one of the things we have in common. I'm like, I gotta get

Speaker 1 7:32

home. My whole family is I die. They are relying on me. If I'm not in that bed, it's curtains for all of them. It's curtains for all of them. And I don't, I never get sick of being it's hard to explain. It's like, I, I, I never get sick. It's, it's always like, I'm always relieved if somebody can find some comfort in those times, in anything I've done right, right? And like, I think anyone would be. I don't ever want to be just one thing. I never intended to be just one thing. I don't perceive myself that way, like we were saying earlier. It's like, I don't even, I don't even really, like, perceive myself as a mom, right? You know, people are like, Oh, we have in common, yeah? You know, like, Mom culture. I'm like, oh, oh, I mean, yeah, I have kids, you know. But I just, I guess, yeah, it's sort of, it's sort of kind of like a strange thing to me. And yet, you know, even when I try to do something that is like, purely, like, footloose and fancy free, I just, I keep going. I can always find, like, the little like, the hard stuff, yeah.

Traci Thomas 8:47

Do you feel like, okay, let me tell you why I would hate Yeah,

you, yeah. I mean,

I'd love to be you for a lot of reasons. But the thing that I think about when I, like, project myself on Yeah, is that I feel like people expect a certain thing from you and, like, certain feelings and behaviors from you, because many of us have followed you for such a long time and have, like, been part of or feel like we're part of your story because we were there when you were, like, deep in the throes of grief, and then, Like, when you met your new husband, and like, you know, so it's like, I could, I would feel stuck sometimes, if I were you, because I would feel there's like an expectation. Yeah, I How does I feel? Yeah, I

Speaker 1 9:34

was not planning on talking about all this too, but I think it's actually a great day to talk about it, and I that is one reason I put the podcast on hiatus in March. And by that I just was like, I cannot keep up with this grind. And a part of it is, you know, I've a lot of people have burned out working on my show. We, I don't know how, like in. Side podcast you want to get inside, you know. Let's start, you know, but it's like, as you as you may or may not know, as a listener, a bunch of VC money, a bunch of fake investment money, poured into the podcasting space around, let's say 20, I don't know, 1920, whatever. Who cares? And a lot of that was through advertising like direct to consumer brands, right where they're just pumping money, and it's all awareness campaigns, all of a sudden people are getting million dollar deals, $2 million deals, 10 million deals, 100 million dollar deals, to try to recoup some of that, or try to fill all the available ad space. Show should always be on. These deals happen. There aren't enough pillows in the world that you can sell to recoup $100 million I was in public radio at the time making this show, and even if you were not making that kind of money, you were sort of pressured into becoming a show that was weekly. We ended up making a show that was, you know, an HBA, an HBO level show, right? Like highly produced. We do the interview, we listen to it for hours, we we pull tape, we write a script, we craft a story. It's it's sound designed, and we went from a seasonal model like really in depth to always on with no change in right, in staff, right and when in audiences. And this isn't everybody, either. It's like, I'm not this is such a small percentage of the population, but when you start to get reviews or emails that are like this just isn't sad anymore. Like, what happened? It's like, what do you think happened? Capitalism happened. And also, I am just a person, and when I open up my inbox, and it's people who are just trauma dumping on me in a way that I didn't, didn't always consent to this stuff comes at me in like, you know, DMS on a Tuesday, and it'll be a horrifying photo that somebody sends me. And, oh, I didn't know where to put this, but, you know, like, my, you know, baby was just killed by my ex husband, and here's the photo of her and the NICU true story, something that happened to me. And, you know, I'm like, sitting there on the couch with my kids, like, or when the expectation like you mentioned, is like, oh, it better be sad, or it better be more traumatic. It better be it better be it, better be and if you really listen to the first season of my show, the first episodes really aren't about like, death and grief. It's like, about all kinds of things, you know, like, it's about all kinds of, you know, difficult or challenging life experiences and as my life has can as I've continued to live my life, you know, I can't stay in that space forever. Yeah, you know, yeah, I can't stay in that space forever. So I kind of hit the pause button, hoping to have time to think about what I really, really want to do, which is scary, because that's how I make money. And, you know, and now there, there's less of it, but, yeah, I that's, that's kind of how we got to where we are now, where I'm kind of in that liminal space, yeah, between things,

Traci Thomas 13:19

right? I mean something that I really like respect about you, and the thing that we have like in common is that, I mean, not all of this part what I respect about you is I feel like you're good at boundaries in a lot of ways, like I feel like you're really clear about, you know, who you're supposed to be for other people. The thing that we have in common is that we don't put our kids on the internet. You used to, but you don't anymore. And I never did when you're setting these boundaries, when you're taking a step back from the work, when you're when you're changing the path, what's going on for you is it, is it hard? Does it feel right? Do you know it's the right thing to do? Because that's where I struggle. Sometimes. I'm like, I feel like I should do this, and then I'm like, What about the money? Like, what about the Yeah,

Speaker 1 13:58

yeah, I would say that's such a good compliment. And I'm so excited to go to therapy and tell my therapist that somebody said that about me, because she's going to be so proud of it. She was obviously a huge part of that. And, you know, probably last winter, I was crying in her office, and I was like, I don't think I can do this, you know, like, I don't think I can do this. And she said, You got here. I've been waiting for you.

Traci Thomas 14:22

Yeah.

Speaker 1 14:23

I was like, Damn okay. I was like, oh, okay, okay. And I think that there is a natural terror to that. For a long time, I have been burned out, you know, in 2022 when I went on the bad vibes only tour, it was a combination book and podcast tour, and you know, the planning of that was largely me and my team, and it was 21 cities in 24 days, 11 live shows, and then the rest were like book events. And that is because, like many people who have ADHD. And perfectionism. I just had post its on a calendar. And when I saw blank days, I was like, I could do more. I could fill it in. I could fill that look at there's two spaces like, what am I gonna do on those two days? I don't know, live your life. And you know, even before I went on that tour, I was having a full mental breakdown in a hotel room in Las Vegas, head under the pillow, screaming while my poor friend Caroline moss like, had her headphones on and was working on her black friday content was like, she's like, What stop, give it down. You know, like hoping I would get hit by a car, put into like, a light coma four to six weeks. Nothing happens to my face or my spine. Maybe some appendages are injured, no internal just put into a twilight sleep. I wake up. No one's mad at me because I got hit by that car. So you can't be mad that the tour was canceled, you know, like, just don't be mad at me like that kind of fear is still there, right if I change, you know. And right now, we're only making the podcast for paid subscribers, and you know, we're we're coming back in the new year. I don't have a date for it, but we're coming back in a different way, you know, and in a way that I think is more reflective of where and how I am right now and the kinds of work that I want to do. Because, you know, I got a text from one of my beloved aunts yesterday, and she said, hey, you know, one of my husband's friends emailed you, and this horrible thing happened to him, and I'm wondering if you saw the email. And I was like, I did not see the email and let him know, I appreciate him reaching out, but I am not a trauma receptacle at this point in time,

Traci Thomas 16:53

I feel like so many authors who write memoirs have talked to me about this, yeah, about this, like when they go on their book tour and like the things that they talk about in their memoir. Then people come to the signing and are like, by the way, my dad, yeah? And I'm like, that's yes, just really, yeah, okay, I want to pivot off you being sad. Yes, you're welcome. This is called a favor, yeah? And I want to talk about all of us being sad, general, because, okay, this is the thing that I'm I love grief. I'm a grief enthusiast. I like to read about it. I like to think about it. You know, my dad died when I was, like, 25 and so I feel like it really informed how I think about, you know, when other people have lost or whatever. But yeah, thing that I've been thinking a lot about recently, not just because the election was last week, but even before that is like collective grief, or like communal grief, and you talk about, I can't I think it's in bad vibes, only you talk about everything is good and bad, yeah, and I feel like that's a hard one sometimes when we're in These moments of collective grief, because it's hard to admit that there's like, good and bad. So I wonder how you think again as like a person that people look to in these moments where they feel bad about, like, the broader collective grief stuff.

Speaker 1 18:15

Yeah, I also, if I can just go back to the first thing too. It's like, I will always, because I never want to sound like and I hate my fuck, you know, I just fucking don't want this. But it's like, I, like you said, I will always be a grief enthusiast, right? Like, there will, that will always be a part of me. One thing that I know I said it in my TED talk before I even truly lived it is like, Wait, did I say? I don't remember, but it's like, that will always be a part of me, right? But something I've told my kids about, you know, all of their different life experiences too, is like, sometimes that will be the headline and sometimes it will be a bullet and sometimes it will be a footnote. It's not my headline anymore. Is what I want to say. That is not my headline. It's always going to be a part of me. It's always going to be a thread through my work, but it is not my primary identity anymore, being a grief person, being a grief person, you know, like I think that there is, there's more to for me to experience, and there's more for me to talk about, And I built, like this little box for myself that really reflected what I needed at the time. And now it feels like it's time to kind of open that up and, like, widen the aperture. Okay, so everything being good and bad, what was that question? Sorry, I don't

Traci Thomas 19:36

know you actually want to talk about what you just said, because I feel like the other thing about grief is that, like, in the sense that everything is good and bad, is that it is in everything, yeah, yeah, right. Like, it's like, this idea. It's like, oh, this person is grieving currently for for the next six weeks. But it's like, no, it's just sort of like, sprinkled on every

Speaker 1 19:59

day, every like. Grieving people have to okay, this is crazy, Traci, but like, Saturday morning, I woke up, I got a text, and it was like, Oh, this woman, I went to college with her husband died in the middle of the night, and they were about to go to a big college football game. It was like, a big family thing, right? Like, she wakes up, he's dead. He's got to go off to the Morgan. She's like, calls me. She's like, I mean, I still want to go to the game. Like, what else am I going to do today? I was like, Girl, go to the game. Go to the game. Who cares? I was like, you've never done this before. Your family's never done it before. He's never died before. Like, go to the game. Also, there might be another whoop you in a in a stadium of 30,000 people. You have no idea how many people's husbands dropped

Traci Thomas 20:38

dead last night. You know, right? Like, find your new best friend. What

Speaker 1 20:41

else are you gonna do? Though? You know what I mean? Like, even when your world has fallen apart, the rest of the world is still spinning, and you still have to go to Nordstrom and say, I'm looking for a dress. And the person says, Is it a special occasion? And you're like, I don't know. It's my husband's funeral, you know? And you just get to watch them, right? You know? It is like you said, it's a part of everything, so.

Traci Thomas 21:00

But my question before was just about, like, collective grief, or, like, broader grief. Do you think about that stuff a lot? Do you feel like, do? I don't know. I think I do think about it a lot recently. But I'm just curious about because you're because you're Yeah,

Speaker 1 21:13

yeah. I mean, I mean, I think I think about that all the time. I thought about that when the pandemic started too that there were people who were so so disoriented by, you know, the solitude, or by you know, the suddenness, or by the loss of all of these experiences and people and states of being. And it felt very, very familiar to me as a widow, it really did. I was like, Oh yeah, so that life has disappeared, and now we're here, and now there's no floor and there's no ceiling, and somehow there's, like, one wall dangling from nowhere. It just felt, it felt really familiar. And I a lot of widows said the same thing, like, oh yeah, we've we've somehow, like, been here before, and we are so it's not just that we're, like, a grief, intolerant grief, illiterate culture, like we are a struggle, illiterate struggle, intolerant culture, like we just, America loves a winner. Like, that's what we like. We just, we love a winner. And if you are having a hard time with anything, it is always boing. Flip back to you, right? It's your head. Think different thoughts, like you know, right thought, right action, all of this sort of cultish language that we use to take responsibility off of institutions and put it right back on an individual which is not where it belongs. And that's why I try really, really, really hard to save my anger for aim it a little bit higher than the person who is in front of me, because I have more in common with that person. Our struggles are intertwined in a way that they are not if you just, like, Look up, look up 10 or 20 floors, like, that's our common enemy, okay,

Traci Thomas 23:16

okay, we're gonna take a quick break and then we'll be back. Okay. Okay, this is the part of the show where we actually talk about books. Okay, you're you're off the grief hot seat. You are now. Oh, you've got your I've got my worksheet questions ready, but I do have one surprise thing for you before we do it. So every month we take a question from a listener. They're asking for a book recommendation. I'm going to read to you what they said. Okay, you're going to come up with at least one book. Okay, up to three, I'm gonna do three. Okay, as I'm prepared, but you're being surprised. So here we go. This one is Oh, and it's called, we call this ask the stacks. If people at home want to have their book recommendations read on the air, you can email ask the stacks at the stacks podcast.com, okay, this comes from Aaliyah. Leah said I loved your Oh, this was not actually my last podcast, but she said I loved your podcast with Andrew Leland about his book, The country of the blind. I am reading the book right now, and I love it. I have heard you mention the idea of memoir, plus as a genre where there is a strong narrative arc of a memoir with strategic exploration of historical or informational context to deepen the narrative. I feel like invisible child, which I also loved, is another book that does this, though it isn't a memoir. It does follow a person's story. What other books do you love in the memoir, plus genre? I can go first. Okay,

Nora McInerny 24:36

thank you.

Traci Thomas 24:37

So the first one that comes to mind, which is more in line with invisible child is the book his name was George Floyd by Robert Samuels and Toulouse olnuripa. It is about George Floyd. That's his name, and it's really great. I I love the book. I knew it was going to win the Pulitzer Prize when I read it, because it reminded me so much of invisible child. So. Where they give George Floyd, sort of the presidential treatment. So they tell you his life story, but they go back and find out, like his ancestors who were enslaved, and they find out about the family who owned him, and they give you all this context on his life. I just think it's a really well done sort of biography, plus, if you will, the next one I have is actually an essay collection, and it does relate to disability, similarly to country of the blind. It's called How to tell when we will die by Johanna hedva. It's a collection of essays all about disability, pain work or care work. Pain kind of like the icky stuff like shit and piss, and also some of the like, fun, creative thinking of wrestling as being like the most, one of the most safe spaces, like for bodies, and the way that, like mosh pits take care of each other and stuff. And it's just really interesting thinking around disability. And I'm just a real big fan of Johanna head of his work, because they're really bad ass. And then the last one is my own country, by Abraham Verghese, who probably people know as the covenant of water guy. He used to be a doctor. He might still be, and when he immigrated to America in the 80s, and he was a doctor, and he was doing his residency in rural Tennessee, and he's an infectious disease specialist. And if you're following the dots around the late 80s and early 90s, that's aids time. And so he was this brown person from India in rural Tennessee, treating people for this mysterious disease, which turns out to be HIV AIDS. And it's his story about being there and like, how he's treated and dealing with, you know, heterosexual couples who are coming down with a gay plague from New York, and like trying to negotiate all of these stereotypes. And it's just really, really beautifully written. So those are, those would be my three. Yeah, did you come up with one?

Speaker 1 26:53

Okay, so my suggestion is, have you read bright sided by Barbara Aaron Reich, okay, one of my favorite writers. She wrote nickel and dimed, which was that experimental memoir where she, like, basically tried to live a minimum wage in like the 90s in three different cities, and discovered, duh, it's impossible, right? And I remember reading that when I was probably in college, and realizing she had done one of the experiments in Minneapolis where I grew up, and just thinking like, oh, oh, oh, okay, okay. So this is bright sided, how positive thinking is undermining America. She has this way of writing that feels like you are reading a magazine and having a conversation. This is about toxic positivity, I think before that phrase was even coined, or at least popularized, and starts with the story of her cancer diagnosis, and what is wrapped up in more toxic positivity and positive thinking, then cancer, right? And that chapter is called smile or die. And I loved this book when I first read it, when it first came out. This is probably, like the second or third copy that I've had. It is, she's such a good researcher. She pulls from so many sources, interviews, life experience. It's just a fantastic book that sounds

Traci Thomas 28:25

amazing. Okay, Leah, if you read any of these books, you have to let us know what you think. And now onward, two books you love, Nora and one book you hate.

Speaker 1 28:34

Oh, boy. Okay, I just want to start with a hate, but I don't want to. Okay, so first I'm going to start out by saying that I when I love a book, I love it so much, and the book that I am absolutely in love with this year is I cheerfully refuse by life, anger, life, anger. I will not rest until everybody has read his books. But specifically I cheerfully refuse, okay, it is in Odyssey and journey in a near future where billionaires have raped and plundered our world and now live on in space or on on on like the water. Specifically, his books tend to take place on Lake Superior in northern Minnesota, and the main character is pulled into this journey, the hero's journey he does not want to take. It feels so immediate and feels so current, and also feels like the past. At the same time, the world has lost all hope. And yet this man and the little girl on his that he finds on this, on his little boat, on an inland sea called Lake Superior, they persist. It is such a beautiful, beautiful book he has. He belongs. It's time. And it's timely. His use of language is so beautiful. I have bought that book so many times because I give it to people, and I say, give this back to me, and I forget who has it, and then I can't stand to not have the book in my home. That is how much I love that book, okay, okay, the second is the heart is a lonely Hunter by Carson McCullers, and I read it when I was so young. I was reading books that maybe were not like completely age appropriate for me, but as a sort of, like, weirdly depressive little child who, again, had not experienced anything particularly difficult, but, yeah, sort of like, was ready with that kind of like existential dread. I just loved her. She's, I want to say, like, Southern Gothic, but sometimes I'm dumb, and I don't know if that's like, quite the right way to like, describe it about books, actually, okay, good, good, good, good, same, same. I'd like, I'm like, Oh, I don't know was that a past participle couldn't tell you, couldn't tell you. Sorry. I

Traci Thomas 31:09

still don't know the three voices. I'm like, first. I'm like, first, it

Speaker 1 31:12

could be omniscient. Same, yeah. Also, who knows? I'm attempting to write fiction right now, and I'll google. Like, wait, what tense for book. What do I like? I'm like, I can't, is it now or is it? Did it already happen? I can't tell. I'll change my tenses all the time. But those are two books that I like have to have in my shelves at all times. A book I hate, just one. A book I hate, dude. I love a hate, hate men's self help, but I have a special hatred for Tim Ferriss in the four hour work week. Oh, the way that book wrapped its grubby little fingers around a generation of men celebrated scamming, essentially, right? Like, no one works a four hour work week. Okay, that's, that's not a thing. He essentially was like, just sell vitamins on the internet and drop ship them. Okay, wow. What? What a genius. What

Traci Thomas 32:12

an MLM,

Speaker 1 32:13

what an MLM. What in the MLM are you talking about? Right? And just sort of elevated him into this echelon of like thinkers when I've never read a more thoughtless book. Yeah, I just, I just think, anytime I see that somewhere, I think, what are you talking about? In that same vein, like you are a badass all, any book, hate, any book, actually, there's one more that I just like. It's like, I just, I hate. It's all. It all just feels like one giant grift, one giant grift. And all these people know each other, and they all promote each other, and they're all saying the same thing, which is, like, you can do it honestly. You probably can't. You probably can't. You probably can't. If this, this is a person writing a book who is in the right place at the right time, you probably you could make a podcast that is just as good as mine, if not better, without a giant machine behind you in the year 2024 you could not match the success I have had. You couldn't, and I couldn't either. I can't do it again. It's not happening again. I did it once, and that's it. And that's what people will never tell you about their success, is that they cannot replicate it. They can just sell the dream to you,

Traci Thomas 33:31

right? That's so good. Okay, you what kind of reader Are you? We didn't even talk about your book podcast that you had Yeah. You had one called Yeah, terrible reading, yes, yes. I

Speaker 1 33:43

because I love to talk about books, but I also just love to start things. Then I also just, you know, I like the 24 cities in 21 days, or 21 cities in 24 days. I'm just like, who's gonna do this? Like, when

Traci Thomas 33:54

am I gonna do that? Right? So I feel about my sub stack. I'm like, Yeah, I had this great idea. Now. I'm like, Who writes?

Speaker 1 34:00

Who's gonna do this? Me, I do this. Okay? I do this. I read. I won't say I read everything, but I am a eclectic reader. I don't pick, I don't read what books are about before I pick them up. I'm literally judging a book on a vibe, on a cover, on if, if I have heard, if I've seen, like, a if I've scrolled through and someone's like, here's what I liked about this book. I don't need to know the plot going in for a novel. I just go, I just go right in. I just go right in, and a little

Traci Thomas 34:32

bit like that. I mean, I sort of have to know because of my stupid job. But a lot of times someone will, like, pitch a book to me, and I'm like, if the first sentence sounds like something I could say, great, if it's a paragraph I just want to know like, Michelle is friends with Romi and they're going to the reunion. I'm like, great, done. Great. That's all. I mean, don't tell me more.

Speaker 1 34:51

Don't tell me more. I don't want to know more. So I do read. I read, I wouldn't say, like, a ton of non fiction. I don't love. Instructive, non fiction, yeah, I do like a blend of sort of, like history or this is a book that I paid like $30 for this book. There was an event at at for this, this book from Harvard press. Look how tiny this is. Oh, okay, private this book, privateers, how billionaires created a culture war and sold school vulture, same thing, school vouchers. There was an event with him at our local bookstore, and I couldn't make it, so I had to buy this book, like, online from Harvard press for $30 and so these are the kinds of like, non fiction books I like. Like, tell me a story, give tell me a story, while also giving me an education on a topic that I did not know I was about to be interested in.

Traci Thomas 35:44

Yes, I love, I mean, I love non fiction, so, but I do I love an academic book. Sometimes they can be really dry, but if they're well written, yes, I'm like, Yes. Teach me the ways of the world. How did we get here? Please answer yes. What's the last? Just like, really great book you've read.

Speaker 1 36:03

Okay, the last really, really great one, one where I was, I was talking out loud to myself as I read it, and like, being like, oh, like, by, I was by a pool, which is one of my favorite places to read, heat of summer here in Phoenix, Arizona, at a resort, which are the best time to go, as in the dead of summer, and I read slow dance by rainbow roll. Rawl,

Traci Thomas 36:27

I don't know this. I have very different book tastes. I'm loving this. I feel like I'm getting onto my list every

Speaker 1 36:32

every book she has written, like landline, Eleanor and Park. I think a lot of her books are somehow like cast into ya even though they're just really beautiful fiction. This is the it's a maybe, but it's like, I don't want to classify it as a romance, because it's not a trophy, got it cartoon character cover. I'm not slamming those. That's just not that that specifically is just not my vibe, you know, like, I don't, like, really need to, like, read people banging. I don't know just about it. I'm always like, okay,

Traci Thomas 37:07

lol, Sarah prude, I read that in her book. I really, so am I? Yeah, I'm like, but when I read romance, I only want the sex. Oh, I'm like, if I'm gonna read a romance, yeah, it's like, oh. And then they go in the bedroom and close the door. I'm like, No, bitch, How was her How was her heat feeling between her legs? Between her legs robbing.

Nora McInerny 37:28

She felt him grow hard against his G

Traci Thomas 37:30

so it's like, lol,

Speaker 1 37:34

it's okay. So this is the story of friends from high school, like that, really kind of intense friendship you can have with a person of either sex, by the way, where it's like it's so bordering on love, you cannot tell if it is or not. And then they're essentially their reunion. They go back to their high school reunion. It switches points of view, and it also switches time, but she sets it in a time before iPhones, which I really, really like. So they graduated in, like the 90s. The reunion is 2006 so it's there's so much longing. And it honestly made me long for the days of longing.

Traci Thomas 38:30

I love that because, yes, because, like, technology makes it so that it's a lot harder too. Yeah, long in the same way, like, you don't have to wait as much, no,

Speaker 1 38:39

you don't have to wait for an email, which was, you know, even that it was like, I remember waiting for letters, I remember waiting for emails. I remember, you know, like anticipation in a way that you just don't have in the same way now, because you really can have so much more access to a person and like, peek into their lives, even if you've lost touch. So it's just it was truly such a beautiful, beautiful read. Every time I finish one of her books, I'm like, She better be working on another one. Like, she better be at work right now. I've got no patience for Rainbow row, She better be I don't want to see her having fun. I don't want her engaging with friends and family. I want her at the computer tapping away, building me a new world. Now. Get

Traci Thomas 39:31

to work. Lady, get to work. What are you reading right now?

Speaker 1 39:35

Okay, I just finished a book last night called a better ending, which is non fiction, a memoir about this man whose sister died in night in the 1970s his younger sister, it was reported as a suicide. Her husband was a cop.

Traci Thomas 39:59

I. I know where this is going. Yeah, and

Speaker 1 40:01

he picks the story. He basically starts pursuing the story in the early 2000s and just published this book. Will publish, I think, in March. And I've got, I really, really did love this book. I It's, he's, he's very fair, he's very he's just like, he's obviously from a different generation. I think he's got to be, like, almost eight. Like, almost 80 years old now, and so it's kind of, it's almost like a family memoir too, but it's also just the story of really, really searching for the truth about a sibling when you know, again, he's like, digging into not only just like the past, but a past that is very easy to hide and to disappear because it's all on paper. Yeah, so, and now I just started all fours last night, which is, I'm the last person on Earth to read that one. I haven't read it. Okay, okay, okay, okay, yeah, honestly, I saw Miranda July live when my husband was dying, it was at, you know, at like the Walker Art Center in in Minneapolis, and she stood on stage for the first 10 minutes and just stared at the audience. And no, thank you. I was so angry. I was I was shaking with rage. I was shaking with rage. I was like, I'll give you something real. I left early, and I remember this man, like, grumbling, and I leaned over him, and I go, Well, my fucking husband's dying, and I hope he remembers that, because he was just being such an art snob about it, like, all right, you can't let her just leave. I was like, I'll fucking leave right now, dude, I'll leave. You think I'm gonna watch this doe eyed deer of a lady just stare at us. I paid 60 bucks for this or whatever. Who knows what I paid, but I was just like, You got to be joking. This is why people hate art. This is why. Okay, this is guess what. When 2016 happens, it's your fault. Everyone in this theater is at fault. Okay, I was I was not, I was not in my best space. So, so, but I really, she wrote this non fiction book. Nobody belongs here more than you. But I had loved, I had loved that book because I am odd in that same way. And then I was, it's like I just realized I've been holding a grudge against Miranda, July for getting on stage and staring at us. And then another part of the show is, like inviting people on stage, and like to pretend like they were in a marketplace. I don't know. I just was like, I

Traci Thomas 42:26

know, like art. I

Speaker 1 42:27

don't like this. I'm leaving, no so yes, that's I'm starting that. And then I am also, I'm really, I'm gonna give this book, I'm gonna give that book, like, 20 pages. And if I'm not into it, I'm out, because I have the new Elizabeth Strout book, and I would read anything by Elizabeth Strout. I want to live in her LL Bean catalog. World her. I really do. There's something about her. There is something about her.

Traci Thomas 42:58

I love this. Okay, do you have a favorite bookstore? I

Speaker 1 43:03

my favorite bookstore is whatever bookstore I'm in, but in the Twin Cities, it's sub Subtext A bookstore. It's this itty bitty bookstore in St Paul. I love them. I love the people there. It's cozy. It's not a place you they might have like one little couch or, like, a couple chairs or something. But it's really just like this little nook. It's like a little book nook. And if I'm on, if I'm in Minneapolis, it's majors, and Quinn, they have a great like, also selection, like rare old books. So my dad loved it there also. And in Phoenix, it's changing hands bookstore, but if I'm going to a new city, I will find a small bookstore, and I will, I will purchase books, because nothing fits in your suitcase more than several books.

Traci Thomas 43:58

That's exactly right. Well, I use them to push down all of my clothes that I didn't need to pass compression. I'm like, Oh, this is actually a useful tool. These books that I didn't need to buy

Speaker 1 44:08

compression. That's so smart, exactly, yeah. Well, I

Traci Thomas 44:12

am very smart, yeah. Obviously. What's the last book that made you cry?

Speaker 1 44:17

Oh, okay, it's, it is, ask not the true story of the Kennedys and the women they destroyed. Oh,

Traci Thomas 44:27

my God, I just added that book to my list yesterday. Oh,

Speaker 1 44:31

man, it is. It also I was, I was talking out loud to myself the whole time. I was like, oh boy, oh boy, oh boy, oh boy. So it filled me with rage. It I cried numerous times, but especially because I really did hold up. You know, Jackie Kennedy in my early widowhood, I was like, God is too bad Aaron didn't have. Jackie Kennedy there, right? Someone who could just hold it together, somebody who could, you know, look good, do the part keep, keep her sh, I T together. You know what? She didn't, she didn't guys, she didn't she, she really had a hard go of it. And so many women in that orbit did so justice for all of them. And oh, when you find out, when you find out what really happened.

Traci Thomas 45:26

Okay, I can't wait. Oh, my gosh. Okay, that like started today,

Speaker 1 45:36

when you find out how Mary Jo capec ni really died. You Ted Kennedy, it's not over. Yeah, it's not over, buddy. It's not over. Because, guess what? I am about to pull a Kim Kardashian, I'm going to law school it, or I'm going to be a lawyer. I'm going to declare myself a lawyer, and I will figure it out, and I will, I will find justice. And with oh, there's so many. It's a it's a rager that that book is a rager. Okay, I

Traci Thomas 46:06

might have to squeeze this in before the end of the you have to. I'm like, I'm in this phase right now where I'm, like, trying to squeeze in my last few reads of the year before I like, move on to 2025, yes, I always feel like I hear about a few books at the end of the year, when these lists start coming out, and I'm like, fuck, I gotta squeeze it in. Yeah, that one's happening. Okay. Are there any books that you're embarrassed about, like, loving? Oh,

Speaker 1 46:27

about loving? No, I literally you cannot shame me for liking a book or liking anything. Really, those days have kind of have passed for me. I like what I like, and I don't really need to to justify it. I I am embarrassed that I did listen to the secret on audiobook, and I was like, okay, yeah, this is making some good points. And really, you know, the secret was, you're you're depressed. Go see a therapist. That's the secret. That's the secret. You need an antidepressant. You need to break up with this boyfriend. You need to, it's, it's, it's not. You don't need to write things down in a journal. You literally are clinically depressed right now. That is what you are experiencing. Okay? It's, you didn't ask the universe for depression, you silly little creature. And I would listen to that book, walking to the subway station to go to a job that I hated made me depressed, and be like, Yeah, you know, I don't know what I'm asking the universe for, but I brought this on myself. I brought this on myself. That is one. But really, I just look back and I'm like, Oh, wait, you just didn't know. You just didn't know. Didn't know, you just didn't know. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 47:39

are there any books that you're embarrassed about never having read, some

Speaker 1 47:43

every when I see a list like the New York Times, like 100 books you have to read, and I find myself scrolling to check off one that I've read, and it's a long scroll. My mom, my mom, printed that list for me, and I was like, okay, okay, okay, okay. Four, four. I've got four of these. I've got four of these, yeah? Or there's books where I'm like, is this good, or did we all just kind of like, like, what's like, what's going on here? You know, like, there's, there's

Traci Thomas 48:16

a lot of those. Yeah, there's

Speaker 1 48:18

a lot of books like that where I'm like, what? That's how I felt for probably the first 400 pages of My Brilliant Friend,

Traci Thomas 48:26

I was like, read it. I

Nora McInerny 48:27

was like, What?

Traci Thomas 48:30

What, what? And did you come around to it? Did you at

Speaker 1 48:33

the end? I did what I really did, like about that book was it somehow captured that. And sometimes I think books in translation, too were like, wow, this is so genius. Oh my god. Oh my god. And it's like, I don't know. I think it's just just, it's just words describing a thing, but that's what taste is, too. It's just so interesting to me because there are books that I've loved that people find horrible, and they're books that other people have loved that I'm like, What are you talking about? But I did come I did come around to it, because there was something about the way that it captures like that, that that truly romantic love between young girls who, when you have a friend like that, when you are so young, it is a depth of love that no life partner is ever going to be able to top right, right, like they just know you see you get you and, like that sort of fascination too. Like when you're watching like another girl from afar, and you're like, do I am I in love with her? Or do I want to be her, I don't know, right? Like, that's, that's what that book did, just like, so beautifully. I feel like that's

Traci Thomas 49:46

sort of like our friendship love that no one could ever comprehend. And

Speaker 1 49:51

I, I hope, I hope people understand that,

Traci Thomas 49:55

yeah, if you don't go read My Brilliant Friend, because it was written about. Laura and I. It's the number one most important book ever written, according to The New York Times, was written on our friendship. So you're welcome. Elena Ferrante, whoever you are,

Speaker 1 50:09

whoever you are, and by the way, no one knows who that is. No

Traci Thomas 50:13

one knows who that is. And honestly, I never want to find out. I don't. It would be such a horrible, horrible moment in history, if some fucking journalist goes stick in their nose in Elena ferrantes business, and we have to find out that it's some fucking man in Chicago who could speak Italian or whatever the fuck writing about young

Speaker 1 50:36

girls, you're a journalist, shut up. Okay, there's

Traci Thomas 50:41

other work to be done.

Speaker 1 50:42

There's other go, rip the lid off, literally anything else. But if I find out that someone is trying to, you know, solve this mystery, I will disapprove, and you will have to live. I will find you. Yeah, I will find you. And I will say, I will say, Stop, don't I will delete your hard drive. Okay, yeah, so when I figure out how to do that,

Nora McInerny 51:03

oh, I

will. Yeah.

Traci Thomas 51:07

do you have any like, favorite books that you were assigned in school?

Nora McInerny 51:14

Oh,

Speaker 1 51:18

there are so many. I had really, really, really good English teachers. Oh, you did. I did. I just the best English teachers. And, I mean, in high school, maybe it was like ninth grade English, we read things fall apart by Chinua Achebe. And I just remember, like, and then somebody told me that was, like, controversial. And I was like, what? And, and we read, we read like, Invisible Man in in like, ninth grade English. And we read Catcher in the Rye, which, you know, I know some people really, really hate that book, and I'm like, oh, that book was like. I was like, Oh, but I still didn't like, I didn't pick up on, like, Oh, this is like, a depressed person. Yeah, and I don't even really, I don't remember even anything about the plot of that book, other than just feeling like, oh, like, this is how I feel inside sometimes, you know,

Traci Thomas 52:15

yeah, okay, if you could assign, like, if you were a high school teacher, English teacher, what's a book you would assign to your students?

Speaker 1 52:23

Oh god, I would assign that. I would assign them, like, more memoir. Because, and I wish, and I've read that like that was one of the, this was one of the ones that I just wrote question mark on. When you sent me these in advance, I was like, dreading this one, because I'm like, oh God, oh God, but I wish that I had read more memoir when I was younger, because I and more like small, ordinary memoir, because I didn't know that you could, just like, write a book about your life unless it was something like, truly, like remarkable and spectacular. And there are so many, like, my favorite memoirs are ones where it's just like, just like a regular person's life, you know, right?

Traci Thomas 53:11

Yeah, no, totally, yeah. I mean, yes. Okay, I have two more. One is, what are some of your favorite books about grief?

Speaker 1 53:21

Oh, okay. I love, I love Pema Chodron and there and, and I, when I was in grief, there's not a single grief book that I would have read there just wasn't, you know, I'm like, sorry, I'm already there. I don't need this right now. But after, like, you know, sort of like the abject, the the the acute part of grief. I found a lot of comfort in when, when things fall apart. By Pema Chodron, and it's not even necessarily about it's not about death, right? It is about change. And what I like about her writing is it doesn't feel sanctimonious, because she is just like a regular lady who became like a Buddhist monk, and the pettiness is on the page, like she talks about her husband leaving her and her just like throwing rocks at him, like just pelting him with rocks, you know? And I'm like, Yeah, that's that's how I want, that's how I want my wisdom. That's who I want my wisdom from, right? Is a person who, when confronted with the end of her marriage, would pick up a rock and hurl it at a man. That's who I want my wisdom from. And I really love the book grief strike by Jason Roeder, he wrote the onion headline, no way to prevent this. Says only country where this happens. He's so funny. And he wrote this, like, satirical grief book after his mom died. And I read it on a plane and I had church giggles, like, just like, like, trying not to. Which just makes it worse. Yes, it was so funny. It's so absurd and witty and clever, and I just loved it. And, okay, oh god. Also, there's this book. It's a memoir. This is memoir plus, oh my god, it's all coming full circle.

Traci Thomas 55:19

It's okay, Leah, this is for you. Listen up. It's called, Did

Speaker 1 55:21

I ever tell you? It's this, it's it's a memoir of this woman whose mom died when she was a kid, and who left her letters for her to read throughout her life. It's like it's a weeper, but it's really, it's just beautiful. It's so good. It's so good. Okay,

Traci Thomas 55:44

wow, okay, last one, if you could require the current, current President of the United States, Joseph Robinette Biden, to read one book, what would it be?

Nora McInerny 55:55

I I'm not confident that he could, he could do that right now.

Traci Thomas 56:06

I'm so sad that this question has to go back to Trump. When I started the podcast, it was Trump, and I used to go, oh, nine answers. And I was so happy on the night of the election turn to my husband, and I know like I don't want, I can't believe I have to ask this about Trump. And he goes, Well, you could just stop asking the question. I said, I will not let that man change my show. Don't,

Speaker 1 56:27

don't. Okay. I will Okay. Actually, I would have him read. Ask not because I want to. I want to hear because he knows some of these people.

Traci Thomas 56:36

He knows some of them, him and Teddy were him, and Teddy were a great friend. Yeah,

Speaker 1 56:40

I want him to read that book, and I want to watch him do it.

Traci Thomas 56:43

That's such a good answer. Okay, party people, we're done. We've been droning on. Unfortunately for you, Nora is back at the end of the month. Two bad guys, yeah, and we are gonna do book club. And what's hilarious about this is we actually haven't picked the book club pick while we're recording, so we're gonna do that after and you'll know it when you hear this episode, but we don't know it right now, so don't know it. We don't know it, but I will link to all of Nora's books and where you can find her and her shows and everything in the show notes, Nora my best friend. Thank you so much for doing this.

Speaker 1 57:20

Oh my god, I'm gonna text you right after this so we can talk some more shit too.

Traci Thomas 57:24

Literally, can't wait.

Everyone else, we will see you in the stacks. Bye. All right, y'all that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening, and thank you again to Nora McInerney for joining the show. I'd also like to say a huge thank you to Pete Forrester for making this episode possible. Don't forget the stacks book club pick for December is tacky love letters to the worst culture we have to offer by racks King. We will be discussing the book on Wednesday, December 25 with Nora McInerney. If you love the show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/thestacks and join the stacks pack and check out my substack at tracithomas.substack.com. make sure you're subscribed to the stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, be sure to leave us a rating and a review for more from the stacks. Follow us on social media@thestackspod on Instagram, threads and Tiktok, and @thestackspod_ on Twitter, and you can check out our website at thestackspodcast.com. This episode of the stacks was edited by Christian Dueñas, with production assistance from Megan Caballero. Our graphic designer is Robin McCreight, and our theme music is from Tagirijus. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

]]>Ep. 348 I Will Always Be a Grief Enthusiast with Nora McInernyEp. 347 Luster by Raven Leilani — The Stacks Book Club (Justine Kay)Stacks AssistantWed, 27 Nov 2024 08:00:00 +0000https://www.thestackspodcast.com/2024/11/27/ep-347-luster65d2b7a49de6215855aa3aaa:66084694f1e135566828a41a:673d010be3aa290dee443768

It’s The Stacks Book Club Day, and we’re diving into Luster by Raven Leilani with returning guest Justine Kay of 2 Black Girls, 1 Rose. This darkly funny and provocative novel explores race, desire, and messy human connections through the story of Edie, a young Black woman who becomes entangled with a white family. In today’s episode, we dive into the shifting power dynamics in the story, the relationship between Edie and Akilah, and share our favorite scenes from this critically acclaimed debut.

There are spoilers on today's episode.

Be sure to listen to the end of today’s episode to find out what our October book club pick will be.

LISTEN NOW

Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Google Podcasts | Overcast | Stitcher | Transcript

  

Everything we talk about on today’s episode can be found below in the show notes and on Bookshop.org and Amazon.

To support The Stacks and find out more from this week’s sponsors, click here.

Connect with Justine: Instagram | Twitter | Website
Connect with The Stacks: Instagram | Twitter | Shop | Patreon | Goodreads | Substack | Subscribe

To contribute to The Stacks, join The Stacks Pack, and get exclusive perks, check out our Patreon page. If you prefer to support the show with a one time contribution go to paypal.me/thestackspod.

The Stacks participates in affiliate programs. We receive a small commission when products are purchased through links on this website.

TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Traci Thomas 0:08

Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I am your host, Traci Thomas, and today is the stacks book club day. We are joined once again by co host of the two black girls one rose podcast and friend of this pod. Justine Kay to discuss our pick, Lester by Raven Leilani. Lester is a striking debut novel that dives into the messy and complicated life of Edie, a young black woman trying to figure things out in New York City who decides it's a good idea for her to enter into a relationship with a married man who is in an open relationship with his wife. The book brings us all sorts of juicy and divisive situations, bad decisions, power dynamics, racial implications and more. We talk about it all today with Justine, and there are spoilers on this episode. Be sure to listen to the end of today's episode to find out what our December book club pick will be. And a quick reminder, everything we talk about on today's episode, like books, pop culture, everything you can find that in the links, in the show notes, if you love the show and you want more of it inside access, you can head to patreon.com/the stacks and join the stacks pack, which is our bookish community and slash. Or you can sign up for my newsletter, which is at Traci thomas.substack.com both of these places support the work that I do. Both of these places give you exciting inside access to the show perks like voting on our stacky awards, our monthly virtual book club, things like bonus episodes. Also, each platform offers different perks. So you can check that out by going to patreon.com/the, stacks and going to Traci Thomas, dot sub stack.com, and I should say now you are able to gift a subscription to either sub stack or patreon to anyone in your life who loves books, who doesn't know they need this community. Give them a gift. Let them try it out. And if you're not able to right now, I get it. You can do one thing that is super impactful and helps the show that is completely free leave the show a rating and a review on Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen, and be sure to tell a friend about it. I know that seems so basic, but when you tell a friend I listen to this podcast and I love it, they're more likely to listen to it than anything else. That's the number one way people listen to shows. How did you find this show? Someone probably told you, so, yes, please leave a review. Tell a friend. Show the show. Some love. I love you guys. Thank you. Okay, enough. That was too romantic. Now it's time for my conversation with Justine Kay about Lester by Raven Leilani. You

all right, everybody, this next book club day. I'm so excited. Friend of the pod podcast host herself, Justine Kay is back. Justine, welcome back.

Justine Kay 2:54

Oh my gosh, thanks for having me. I hope I sound okay. I'm worried you're really smart. I'm worried I'm gonna sound dumb, you're

Traci Thomas 3:00

gonna sound great. You're not dumb. You're very smart. Justine, I didn't say this, but I said it in the real intro, but just in case you skipped through that, because you're a smart podcast listener who doesn't listen to intros, Justine is the co host of the two black girls one rose podcast, where they talk about reality TV. And if you haven't heard her talk about that, you could go back to her first episode from the beginning of the month on le. Beginning Of The Month and listen. But today we are talking about luster by Raven Leilani. There will be spoilers people, just so you know, this book is the story of Edie, a black 20 something living in New York City who enters into a relationship with a man, a much older man named Eric, who is white and married and has a child and is an in an open relationship. Edie and Eric have a thing that's going fine. It's going good.

Justine Kay 4:02

It's fun times, yeah?

Traci Thomas 4:04

But then Edie does some stupid things. Yeah? She puts and and the wife gets involved. Her name is Rebecca. Rebecca Becky. Becky with the good hair, Becky is there. And the book, you know, the book takes off from there. So that's sort of the premise of luster. We always start here for book club. What did you think generally of this book?

Justine Kay 4:29

Yeah, I would like to thank you for bringing me on for this episode. I have been reading cheesy romance novels so long Traci that I am not used to this sort of writing anymore. I was so it was such a treat to read this kind of writing, yeah, and overall, I thought it was a really, really good book. I would give an eight and a half out of 10. I thought it was very well written and the story, while a. Lot. There was a lot of detail, right, which felt like it was almost like a lot of responsibility for the reader. There's a lot to remember. Yeah, I thought overall, there's so much to dissect about this character and so much to forgive about this character, but if you think about it long enough, you could forgive her for every mistake she made in this book. And not a whole lot of unlikable characters are written that way.

Traci Thomas 5:22

I love this. You're so forgiving. Wow, you are. Though, sometimes on the show there'll be like a person who behaves so badly, and you're like, I could see myself in her head. I'm like, She's literally a murderer and like a child molester. But it's not that you feel great about it. Um, okay, I like that. I like that. So I, I like this book. A lot of people going into the book were like, This is so like, this is such a like. I hated this book. It's so divisive. Like, someone told me this was an even more wild choice for me to pick than Colleen Hoover. And I was like, No, that's unhinged to say this is like feels right in my wheelhouse. Yeah. I love a novel with an unlikeable, quote, unquote unhinged female main character. If a woman is making bad choices, I want to read about it. This book is totally in my wheelhouse. I had a great time with it. I really, really liked it. I loved the questions it brought up about race and power and sort of the performance of those things about pettiness. Ooh. I mean, I don't think it's a great book, yeah, right, but it was a very good book. It is a debut. I will read whatever Raven Leilani writes next, for sure. Yeah, and I really like the storytelling. Like, there's parts in the book where she's like, going off about random shit, and then all of a sudden, she's like, and then I looked over and akilas face down underneath the police officer, and I was like, What did I miss? Like, I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like, she keeps that energy of Edie, which is like in first person, so we're in Edie's mind. She keeps Edie's correct energy the entire time. And so overall, this was, like a big yes for me. Yeah,

Justine Kay 7:14

I agree.

Traci Thomas 7:14

I don't I get, I sort of agree with you that, like everything bad Edie does, you could sort of forgive, but I actually don't feel like I feel like she made stupid and reckless choices, but she doesn't do anything that even needs forgiving or is harmful, in my opinion. Or am I missing something? Am I forgetting something?

Justine Kay 7:33

No, I mean sneaking into your boyfriend who's married house. Not great.

Traci Thomas 7:38

Yeah, that's not great. The door was unlocked so she can break in.

Justine Kay 7:44

Is that? Yeah? Technically, yeah, right, technically. I mean,

Traci Thomas 7:47

I guess my point being is, like, she didn't do anything, like, legally wrong.

Justine Kay 7:53

That's what I told my fiance. He was like, when does this happen? I was like, this happens all the time. This is the whole premise of Fatal Attraction. This like the girlfriend sneaking into the house, going through the wife's clothes. Happens? Bunny

Traci Thomas 8:05

boiler? Yeah, it's,

it's a type of woman, a bunny boiler. Yeah? I mean, I think that is probably her most egregious

Justine Kay 8:19

action, right? Yes, she has really specific feelings about women that I would love to chat about, really specific feelings about men. And I think those are forgivable, and maybe even like, fucking the whole office. Okay, can I curse on you? Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, fucking the whole office was a little unhinged and wild,

Traci Thomas 8:38

sure. Again, again, I guess, yeah, I mean bad decisions, uh huh. But ultimately, she's just hurting herself in all of this, like she's not hurting others. You know what? I mean? Like, I'm like, Yes, I forgive you, but Edie, you have to forgive yourself, yeah,

yeah. Maybe I love to learn to love yourself. You are enough as you are

okay? Well, yeah, let's start with her opinions about women. Okay.

Justine Kay 9:07

By the end of chapter six, I realized that she has this really great amount of empathy for men. Men's excuses are always extremely emotional. Eric is feeling like this. That's why he's an alcoholic. Eric has a black daughter, so that's why he is so far removed from Akila in their relationship. But he looks at her lovingly, like a dad, so it's okay, but with Rebecca, Rebecca's Oh like or Rebecca specifically, but also any other woman in her life, which is definitely due to her relationship with her mother. Are always plotting against her, the other girl, Black Girl at War, Aria, yep, yep, the two people who fired her, Rebecca, even the daughter at some Aquila. Aquila at some moments, she's very sensitive around her. But. She doesn't want her to, like, detonate.

Traci Thomas 10:01

Ooh, interesting,

Justine Kay 10:03

you know. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 10:04

I hadn't. I hadn't picked up on that exactly like, as articulate as you said it like I didn't. But yes, of course, you're right. Also we don't. Yeah, I'm trying to think about how she talks about Mark, the guy from the office, because she because he was plot. Remember, she thought he was plotting against her? Yes, he

Justine Kay 10:22

did. Yeah, she did. She did.

Traci Thomas 10:23

I mean, she's pretty paranoid. Yeah, she is. She is pretty paranoid. She's, did you feel like she was an unreliable narrator? Oh,

Justine Kay 10:35

oh, that's a tough question, because of how this author wrote, as you said earlier, she wrote her so true to voice, yeah? Like, I kind of always expected this. I was like, Oh, she's taking a pregnancy test. That's Traci. Yeah.

Traci Thomas 10:47

I thought she was pretty reliable, even though I didn't think she was very likable. But like, there were not many times where I was like, wait, what she said? Like, I don't believe that. There was a few moments. There's one moment where she talks about, this is like, such a nitpick, but she talks about like she's hooking up with Eric, and she's like, Oh, he slid his hand under my shirt, but she had already told us she was wearing a dress. And I was like, Wait a second, and I know that's like, not a big deal, but I it is, like, a shirt. It's not

Justine Kay 11:16

a dress. Yeah, yeah. I

Traci Thomas 11:18

think it is. But that was, like, one of the few times it was very early that I was like, Oh, is this an unreliable person? I do think this idea that she's like, paranoid around women, though, is pretty accurate, though, to her credit, all the women in the book

Justine Kay 11:35

are out to get her. They are. They are.

Traci Thomas 11:40

Maria does take her job and calls her mediocre.

Justine Kay 11:43

I know. I love that scene. I love it too. That was so good. It's such a function of white supremacy, right? It's such a crabs in the barrel moment that she has, or she's like, I can't be associated with you, even though I fully took you, even though we're fully interchangeable to these white people,

Traci Thomas 12:01

right, which? And before that, before that, what I thought was so interesting is that Edie does pick up on that, but she picks up on it differently. She thinks that Arya is out to get her job and that she doesn't like her because she was too angry too quickly in front of her. That was her understanding of what had happened. And Ari is, like, would have loved to be friends with you, but you suck at your job. And, yeah, I can't be associated with your mediocrity because I'm trying to work my way up, and you're in my way. Yep, and I just loved that. Like, Edie's right, but she's not write about the why behind the situation. And I just found that, like, really fascinating as, like, a inter intra blackness conversation, yeah,

Justine Kay 12:51

yeah. And the the two black girls who are allowed on the floor, right, which I've had that same experience at a publishing company, which is very reminiscent and nostalgic for me to read about. There was just me and one other black girl on my floor at a publishing company. It was my first job out of college. I was 23 Yeah.

Traci Thomas 13:11

Oh, is this? Is this your memoir? No,

Justine Kay 13:14

my life is, thankfully not this interesting, thank God. Oh, wait, here's

Traci Thomas 13:19

the conversation between the conversation between the two of them. I just want to read it. So this is Edie. Edie says, Please, I was a liability to you. I say, holding the smoke in the back of my throat. Well, yes, she lights another cigarette. Smiles, but not like you think. And then Edie says, you're going to tell me again what I think. And Arya says you think because you slack and express no impulse control, that you're like Black Power, sticking it to the white man or whatever, but you're just exactly what they expect. Like, I understand wanting to resist their demands, but they can be mediocre. We can't mediocre. I can't be associated with it like there is actually a brief window where they don't know to what extent you're black, and you have to go, you have to get in there, you have to get in the room. And if I have to, I will shuck and jive until the room I'm in is at the top.

Justine Kay 14:13

Oh, that shuck and jives then, yeah, chill,

Traci Thomas 14:17

yeah. I mean, it is a very specific type of black person. And I'm assuming Ari is also young, yeah? And I think that's also like an extremely young mindset, perspective of black people who maybe have, like, been in predominantly white spaces, yeah? Like publishing, but I just found that, and I feel like what's so great about the book is, like Raven Leilani does all of that in what half a page. Oh,

Justine Kay 14:45

my page. Yes. Another reason why I'm sure that we both love this book. It's only 227

Traci Thomas 14:52

pages. 227 and it's perfect. Oh,

Justine Kay 14:55

thank you, Raven. Oh, my God, I'm starting to venture into the. Kennedy Ryan sphere, I'm trying those are

Traci Thomas 15:03

longer. Oh, my God, 400 pages. Why? Yeah, so

Justine Kay 15:06

this is, this was I like

Traci Thomas 15:08

it, I like, a tight, anything under 250 because, honestly, I was like, I would have done more of this book. Yeah, yeah. Like, there are scenes I could have. I would have loved to have. I you know, anyone who's listening to this, who listens to the show a lot, will know that I love a murder. Oh, and when that gun first showed up on page 125, yeah, I thought I said, this is check offs gun. You know, there's, like, this thing where it's like, with the gun appears, that's like, yeah. And I was like, we're getting a murder. We did get a dog killing, yeah, but I thought we were getting a murder. And then it comes up again when she's like, can you put this gun in my purse? And I was like, reminder, we're getting a murder, yep. And so I was sort of hoping we were getting a murder. And then when the dog was killed, I was like, oh, juicy. And then she's, she was practicing to see if she could get away with it, and now she's gonna

Justine Kay 16:03

kill Edie, yeah? But the same thing,

Traci Thomas 16:07

yeah. But I loved, I loved the gun reveal. I just loved the way she, like, revealed little things to us in, like, a sentence here or a moment there. And I was like, This is so like, she really, I felt like, Raven Leilani thought that her readers were intelligent.

Justine Kay 16:22

Oh yeah, definitely a lot of respect for the

Traci Thomas 16:26

reader here, yeah. Okay, so let's talk about so the first half of the book is really like Edie at her job fucking Eric,

Justine Kay 16:37

open up, weird roommate,

Traci Thomas 16:40

weird apart roommate,

Eric, weird, sex stuff. Weird, weird,

Justine Kay 16:45

calling back to childhood. Every last one of these kinks.

Traci Thomas 16:49

Very weird. Yeah, won't have sex with her for a really long, long time. I'm assuming that's because he feels weird about it, because he's been married for a long time, and like, yeah, he still feels guilty about the whole thing, and maybe, like, doesn't want to go there when she brings him to her filthy

Justine Kay 17:07

Oh, my God, her party ass apartment. You know why I thought he was holding out too. They had their black adopted daughter for two years, right? This is probably the first black woman he's been around in a sexual manner ever in his life, and he's like, 50, so he's, like, kind of treading lately. Doesn't really know what to do. There's a lot of emphasis on Rebecca's body versus Edie's body, right? And him exploring those two bodies. I think he was very nervous.

Traci Thomas 17:37

But we don't get, we actually don't get a great sense of Edie's body.

Justine Kay 17:41

No, just the bra scene with her nikila shopping for bras. She said boobs. She said she talked about her boobs, I think twice during that scene. And there was one more, yeah. But then we know,

Traci Thomas 17:52

we know that she's bigger than Rebecca, but not that much bigger, because she does fit in the dress, but the dress is tight, so they're like, the same size, maybe, maybe one size bigger, but, but that is there this idea of, like, these different bodies, I mean, and the way that, the way that Edie describes Rebecca's body, lets us know that it is different than hers, because she's, Like, so fascinated by the shape of the thing, yeah,

Justine Kay 18:22

yeah. And her narrowness and her angular body, all that stuff, yes. And

Traci Thomas 18:27

her very small boobs. Yeah, she talks about our small boobs a lot, yep, something I noticed, because I too have small boobs. And I was like, You know what? Edie, leave us alone. Some of us have flat chescas Did that you have big boobs you would have, but that was the thing people used to say. They used to call us flat chescas. Flat chest goes instead of Francesca

flatchesca.

Justine Kay 18:50

Oh, my God, come on, guys, elementary

Traci Thomas 18:54

school, I guess middle school, because I don't, yeah, I think most kids are flat chested in

Justine Kay 19:01

elementary school? Yeah, yeah, that's crazy. Oh, my God.

Traci Thomas 19:05

We love it. We love this for me. Um, not complaining. Very happy. Yeah, flat chescas. Um, sorry, what were you talking oh, we're talking about Eric, yes. Okay, so, so it takes a while for them to, like, have sex, yeah, can't do it till he takes her back to his literal home, which is rule number five,

Justine Kay 19:26

yes, that Rebecca wrote down in pen, yeah, paper, which I thought was

Traci Thomas 19:31

she's not

Justine Kay 19:34

this could have been an iPhone shared note, yeah, I mean,

Traci Thomas 19:37

but she fucking knew she probably wrote it down because she knew this dude is not shit and he was gonna break them. They promptly broke every rule. The rules were no unprotected sex, even though he's quote, unquote sterile. Two, if she if Rebecca calls, he has to go. Three, Rebecca can change the rules at any time. Yep.

Justine Kay 20:02

I love how it's a worry also, and not number one, yes,

Traci Thomas 20:05

yes. She's like, Oh, this other thing, rule number four is, this is a new rule. It was a late edition. He can only see her on

Justine Kay 20:12

the week, the weekend and the week. Yeah, I haven't Yeah, only on

Traci Thomas 20:17

the weekends. Yeah. And then Rule five is she's not allowed in the house,

Justine Kay 20:21

in the house, yeah, they break all those rules, every last one of them. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 20:27

I love it. I love it. You knew they were gone. I mean, I think she sets it up by saying, like, here's how we broke all the rules. Yeah, yes, which was great too. But okay, so the power dynamic in this book between these characters, I mean, I think that's something we'll probably spend a lot we'll probably spend a lot of time on, because there's so much in here between the power dynamic. But from the beginning, Eric is in control of this situation between himself and Evie. Yep. He doesn't share very much information about her, about Rebecca. Yeah. He picks where they go. He orders the food, the drinks, everything. He decides when they're gonna have sex or not. Yep, he he after he goes to her room, he recognizes how poor she is, yeah, yeah. And he basically is just, like, feeding her, yeah, right. Like taking, like, it's basically he's exchanging food for sex, even if they're not necessarily having sex right away. Yeah, I just don't know any. I mean, it sounds so fucked up to me now as like a 38 year old, but I'm just thinking, like, Are there 23 year old young women in New York City who are saying no to

Justine Kay 21:41

this, oh, my God, I wouldn't I actually married, married, I would, yeah, but open relationship, open.

Traci Thomas 21:50

But you've got rules from the wife. So you know, the wife, at least, is like consenting to the thing, yeah, and it means that you don't have to be tied down with this old man. That's

Justine Kay 21:59

true. That's true. The only rule that would give me pause is that number three, that she can change the rules at any time. That tells me she's not comfortable with this

Traci Thomas 22:08

at all, sure, but you're 23 Yeah,

Justine Kay 22:12

right, so I actually don't know that. Yeah, yeah. So at 23

Traci Thomas 22:15

that rule just says, like, to me, like, she just like, wants to be in she wants to have control over the situation and, like, but again, I'm 23 and I'm getting to go out to nice restaurants and have, like, nice drinks and nice food. And I know this guy's married, so it's not like, I'm like, getting my hopes up and like, there's even a part where he's like, I'll leave my wife for you. And she's

Justine Kay 22:38

sort of like, God, and she's like, she's like, please don't do that.

Traci Thomas 22:43

Like, so I do feel like she has a good I feel like she has a good grasp of

Justine Kay 22:47

the relationship with Eric, yeah, yeah. I don't think

Traci Thomas 22:53

the Rebecca part, she's fully got a good

Justine Kay 22:56

grasp, no, like the marriage part of this, yeah, no, not at all, but she is. She can't wield her power until he said, I Love You by accident. And then she was like, oh, okay, I can. I gotta pull this car over.

Traci Thomas 23:12

She does say earlier that him having been off the market for so long, makes him vulnerable, and wonders if it's unethical for her to exploit that. And I think that's really interesting, because to me, she has so little power in this situation, even before, Rebecca is part of it, isn't she always part of it. I mean, even before she knows Rebecca, like, Rebecca enters the relationship, you know what? I mean, like, but just between the two of them. That's true, interesting, that she thinks like, Oh, I'm gonna exploit him, because I just didn't. I mean, maybe, I guess maybe she is exploiting him for these nice dinners, yeah, for

Justine Kay 23:51

nice dinners, for companionship, for validation that he's attractive. I think that's why a lot of men go out with, like, younger women, to make sure they, like, still got it, especially ones that aren't like formal sugar daddies. They want a lot of validation in their manhood and their masculinity when they're dealing with younger women, I think too, even the way that Raven portrays Rebecca's name and how regular it is and how she cannot find this woman, she can't find her online, and the frustration of her not being able to find her online, yeah, really, that's when Edie realizes that her power is diminishing. She's like, Wait, I don't have a handle on the situation at all.

Traci Thomas 24:35

Yeah, interesting, interesting. I don't think that Edie ever realizes her power. I don't really. She never acknowledges that to us. She never acknowledges like, she never says, like, this thing is out of control. Oh, yeah, no. Like. She never really has a moment of like, reflection on like she's just living her life.

Speaker 2 24:59

Life, yep, day by day, yeah. And I think, like,

Traci Thomas 25:04

I think what's really, really smart about this book is that, and I've heard from some people, this is one of the complaints with the book, is that the book starts in one place and sort of ends up in a totally different place. And, like, the relationship with Eric sort of just like, fizzles out and disappears. But I thought that was, like, really true to life, because I, I mean, just like, when I think of friends, like, there's people that I meet for one reason, and then I go to a party with them, and then I meet someone else, and I'm like, Oh, you're actually my friend, and I don't ever talk to that other person anymore. Or like, like, I sort of didn't, I didn't mind that, because it felt, it felt like Rebecca sort of took control of the situation and, like, Rule three, the wife can change the rules. Yeah,

Justine Kay 25:43

she very much does. And she does, yeah, all the time. Informally, changes the rules pretty right, frequently,

Traci Thomas 25:51

right? And, like, pretty drastically, I mean, the first time. So let's get to the scene where Rebecca and Edie first interact, because that is the best scene in the book. You think, I mean that in the party, yeah, the party, like, I think of that whole thing as one scene, because she never leaves the house. So in my head, that's all one scene. But after Edie goes to the house with Eric, and they have sex, finally, and Eric says he loves her after she calls him daddy. Oh, yikes. Oh, my God, it's such good writing. It's so smart. Oh, my God, it's so good. Edie unhinged, Edie decides to go back to the house. Like, just cause, is she going for a reason? No, she's just going

Justine Kay 26:46

to me. She just filled in the woman who goes to go through the clothes of the wife, yeah? But

Traci Thomas 26:53

there's no, she's not going, like, oh, I left my shoe, or snowing. Like she's just going,

Justine Kay 26:56

No, she left her dignity. Girl,

she's looking for it.

Traci Thomas 27:03

So she goes to the House. The door is conveniently open. No one's home. She thinks. She goes inside, straight to the bedroom, straight to the closet. Pause all over Rebecca's clothes, just a little sifting through, yep, dun, dun, dun. She turns around. Guess who's there? Rebecca. They stare at each other for a second, yep. Then Edie runs out of the house, yeah. Rebecca chases her out of the house, yeah, and falls down outside in public, in front of her neighbors on the cul de sac. Oh,

Justine Kay 27:44

my God, the drama mortifying. Yeah, that's fucking that's crazy.

Traci Thomas 27:52

I would argue that outside of this one moment in the entire book, Rebecca is in control of power, but this first initial interaction just fucking embarrassing as shit. It's

Justine Kay 28:09

so embarrassing even Becca thinking about Rebecca's obsession with fitness and obsession with her body, to think that she could not get her when she got outside that house. Oh So metaphorical to her marriage, to her marriages. Run wild. Girl, yeah, get

Traci Thomas 28:25

a divorce. Sweetheart, get a divorce. Get a divorce. Edie turns back around because

Justine Kay 28:34

now she feels bad. Now she engages. Yeah, biggest mistake of the book I know, keep

Traci Thomas 28:40

running. Get your ass to New Jersey Transit. Girl, yep, get on a train. Yep, get yourself on Penn Station, yep, Rebecca's like, I just, I just, I'm not gonna hurt you. I just wanted to get a better look at you

Justine Kay 28:55

and why he would choose you. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 28:58

there's some subtext, uh huh.

Justine Kay 29:04

She's like, Oh, this is what he really wants. Okay, yep.

Traci Thomas 29:08

Okay, if you are Rebecca, you're you, but you're Rebecca, uh huh, and you're in an open relationship, right? And your partner chooses someone who physically looks totally different from you. Yeah, different race, different body type, younger or much older. What are you thinking

Justine Kay 29:29

that I have to leave the marriage? I gotta go. I don't even think this about, like, celebrity crushes. I get, like, annoyed if it's What do you mean the opposite, like, I can list all of my sister wives of my fiance, you know what? I mean, his like, hall passes and everything. Yeah, they're all black girls with big asses, like, and that is also me, so it's fine, huh? Yeah. So

Traci Thomas 29:54

you're let you'd be more upset if they were different from you than if they were the same, for sure.

Justine Kay 29:59

Sure, yeah. Why? Um,

because I'm really insecure. I have a lot of body insecurity. So I would be like, Damn, he really does like this better. Oh, I see, I see, yeah,

Traci Thomas 30:12

I see, yeah, I think I'm I think I would be okay with it, yeah, because I'm like, Oh, well, I can never be that. Yeah. He's trying out a different flavor. Like, if someone, like, would look like me, I would be like, Oh, she's the hotter version of me. So it's like, a different kind of I would be like, Oh, it's, it's like, a fetish or something. And like, just into like, girls that look like me, but, like, I'm not as pretty as Tessa Thompson or whatever. You know, like, I don't know why she popped into my head.

Justine Kay 30:41

I think because she's after this, and she sort of was my type, yes, yeah,

Traci Thomas 30:45

yeah. So I feel like I would I. So I feel like, if I'm Rebecca, while I might be like, surprised, yeah, I would probably be like, well, that's fine. I'm not gonna be that, yeah. But I think it's also different, if you're a white woman, and he's picked a younger black woman, but, you know, I can't relate to that,

Justine Kay 31:07

and you just adopted a black daughter who you don't know how to do her hair by choice, that would

Traci Thomas 31:11

be, see, that would be weird, because when the daughter comes up, I think the note that I took is Eric's a creep, yeah?

Justine Kay 31:18

Freaking out. He's a freak, yeah, yeah. It's, it's,

Traci Thomas 31:22

it's creepy, yep. And there's clearly some weird daddy thing, because a he comes after she says, Daddy, this daughter. He's picked the someone who's like the daughter. But there's also a scene where Rebecca in an ED are doing the cadaver thing the first time, when she drops the food off and has lobster bisque in her shoe. Oh my gosh. He says something about her dad being dead. And Rebecca's like, does Eric know about that? Yeah. She's like, No. And she's like, Oh, okay, that's good. He doesn't need to know. Yeah.

Justine Kay 31:50

He doesn't need to know. Yeah. Keep it for yourself. She said,

Traci Thomas 31:53

Yeah. So he clearly has daddy things, yes,

Justine Kay 31:57

uh, Savior things, perhaps, maybe I don't know exactly they don't go into Eric's past, which I'm very thankful for. I don't need to know any more about Eric than I already do.

Traci Thomas 32:08

Yeah? I feel like I know what I know. Yeah, yeah. We know. Do we know about Rebecca's dad? No, no, no, we don't know a lot about the whites back stories. No,

Justine Kay 32:19

we don't. We don't. She fits into such a type of human being that I'm so familiar with, so I'd never bothered to even be curious about her. Yeah, wait, we're

Traci Thomas 32:28

gonna take a quick break, and then we're gonna talk about this type of human being. Okay, we're back. We're here to talk about the specific kind of white ladies, like Rebecca, middle name, Moon,

Justine Kay 32:45

Moon, Becky moon.

Traci Thomas 32:49

It's unfathomable. It is, but it is a specific kind of white lady. So it

Justine Kay 32:54

is, yeah, yeah. I know this white lady. I went to private school for a very long time. I'm from fifth grade to 12th grade. I know that this lady uses the tennis courts to like keep an eye on her kids. She has eyes in the back of her head. She has eyes everywhere. But she also does whatever the F she wants to do, whenever she wants to do it. She has a staff of people who feel so guilty for dropping any ball on her dime, that she is so controlling of every situation that she's in, but appears as if she is like welcoming a hostess a team mother will make the pulled pork sandwiches for the night before the game. Like that type of woman. I know this woman,

Speaker 2 33:42

not a pulled pork sandwich. I thought it was like an orange slice. I've been momming Wrong. Fuck. I've been bringing orange Oh, no, girl, you gotta

Justine Kay 33:50

make the whole pasta dinner before the

Traci Thomas 33:53

game for a night for a 9am soccer match.

Justine Kay 33:56

Uh huh, yeah. They

Traci Thomas 33:57

need the Oh, the night cards before. Oh, I was thinking, like, snack at the game. Oh, it's like, I've been bringing pirates booty and oranges. I'm okay now Thank you. She is also so petty,

Speaker 2 34:18

petty Spanish, so cruel, yeah, yeah, deeply cruel. Rebecca,

Traci Thomas 34:25

I mean, obviously the first bit of cruelty is her inviting

Justine Kay 34:30

her to stay for dinner, I know, and giving her the dress, and

Traci Thomas 34:34

then giving her the dress, yeah, dress that's too tight restricts her body, yep. But she invited her to stay for dinner. That is extremely different than inviting her to stay for your

Justine Kay 34:45

anniversary party with your friends, yeah, yeah,

Traci Thomas 34:50

where you're gonna sing an acapella version of in the air at night. Michael Collins,

Justine Kay 34:54

oh, why Becky? No,

Traci Thomas 34:57

you've seen how to lose a guy in 10 days. Yeah, I have Yeah. It reminds me of the scene where, like, Andy starts singing, you're so vain, yes,

Justine Kay 35:06

oh my god. And then she does all those ad libs,

Traci Thomas 35:11

yeah, oh yeah.

It is, like, it would be a scene in something where people are wasted, and it happens, but as far as I can tell, she's stone cold sober because they're not serving alcohol at the party, which right notices, yeah, because Eric, because Eric doesn't, because Eric doesn't drink, Eric's sober. Big Air quotes. That's that dinner party, that anniversary party.

Justine Kay 35:39

I also love how petty Edie can be in her descriptions. I will say, Yeah, my favorite is she is, I suppose, sexy in the way a triangle can be sexy.

Traci Thomas 35:59

I guess a triangle. I mean, I guess, I think a triangle with three different sides, like one

really long one and one sort of short one. Yeah. She says, isosceles, yeah, yeah. There's

Justine Kay 36:12

different types of triangles. Maybe, maybe I

Traci Thomas 36:15

only know two. I know there's a third, but I can't think of the name. There's equilateral isosceles. Oh, scalene, Whoa, did I pull that out? I didn't even Google that people. I gotta double check though, see,

Justine Kay 36:27

I was trying this podcast girl, scalene pocket.

Traci Thomas 36:30

Oh, okay. Scalene is the kind I like. Scalenes got three different I saw solely has two, yeah, two different legs, yeah. Okay. I did have to go without Google that part, but I did come up with scalene, yeah, nope. Yeah, I know people at home were probably in their car, whatever, like, listening, being like, scaling, you dumb bitch, scaling. And then I said it, and they were like, because sometimes I get DMS when people are listening to the show, or they'll answer something I eventually get to but I can't figure like I got a message. Someone was like, it's a little princess from our last conversation. Yeah. And then they were like, Oh, you figured it out. It's like I did, yeah, but scaling guys, I got that without googling. Yes, no, saying someone is sexy in the way that a triangle can be sexy, that

Justine Kay 37:12

is shade. I love it.

Traci Thomas 37:15

But is a is triangle the sexiest shape?

Justine Kay 37:19

Definitely not. No, what is the sexiest shape in my head? A circle? Oh, no.

Why? What do you say? Circle

Traci Thomas 37:30

is a happy shape. Circle just, I'm perfect. Look at me. I'm a

Justine Kay 37:38

circle. Yeah, mold it can move. What do you think, though? Uh,

Traci Thomas 37:42

no, a circle cannot a circle is a circle. It cannot mold and move. It has to be equal distant from the center all the way around. It can bounce, it can roll, but it cannot change. Then it becomes like an oval or something. Oh, okay, okay, okay, um, I maybe triangle is the sexiest maybe, maybe a trapezoid.

Justine Kay 38:03

Yeah, a trapezoid is a good one. A Traci,

Traci Thomas 38:06

definitely not a square, definitely not a rectangle. No, I think when you start getting into like, hexagons, pentagons, there's too many sides for me. I think too much shape.

Justine Kay 38:15

I was gonna say rhombus, too much.

Traci Thomas 38:17

Yeah, well, rhombus is a trapezoid. Technically, rhombus is any four sided shape. And then there's different rules. So, like, a square is a rhombus, right? A rectangle is a rhombus, trapezoid is a rhombus. A diamond is, like a four sided that's, you know? Anyways, I think I'm gonna go with Triangle, triangle specifically, scaling really one long side, on top, a short height and then a medium width. I don't know, I'm sort of into it

Justine Kay 38:48

nice, such a Rebecca triangle.

Traci Thomas 38:50

I guess I'm into Rebecca. Rebecca is sort of my type. I guess, I don't know, sort of love this triangular woman.

Justine Kay 38:59

This is not where I thought today's episode would go, um,

Traci Thomas 39:05

okay, on the flips on the Okay. Wait, we I have to keep telling the story of this book, because I keep getting distracted. Someone talk more about these people so Rebecca cruel. She goes to his party, whatever. Eric takes Edie home the night of the anniversary. And Rebecca's like, what? It's our anniversary? And he's like, Yeah, bitch, you did this. I'm gonna drive her home. I'm

Justine Kay 39:29

gonna drive her home. You sang Phil Collins in front of anybody? Yeah? Gotta go acapella.

Traci Thomas 39:33

Yeah, that song needs the drums. It's crucial. You can't just fucking do in the air. At

Justine Kay 39:44

night, you need the air and we need the drum down, okay?

And girl, you have a saying any other time in this book, I know you're not a singer. Oh, yeah,

Traci Thomas 39:55

we know she's not a singer. So he takes her home. They hook up AGGRESSIVELY IN THE. Hard because he says, I want to hit you. And she says, do it. He hits her twice, hard as fuck. This is really the twist of the entire This is where the book you thought so. Not that like, I feel like this is the turning point in the book. After this scene, the whole shit shifts, yeah, up until this scene, the book is one thing, yeah, he hits her hard. She goes to work the next day and gets fired. Like, this is the scene in between, like that delineates, for me, the beginning of the book and the rest of the book. Okay, I don't mean it's a surprise, like, I didn't see it coming. Obviously, we knew there's a lot of physical violence. And, yeah, yeah, yeah, a lot of physical violence. And just, like, not even just, like, hitting and pushing, but also Rebecca's job, she, she does autopsies on on veterans. Like, that's a really violent you have to use a sign. You have to cut, like, it's like, it's a lot of like, really intimate, physical, yeah, and gruesome stuff going on throughout this book, yeah? Um, after that, Edie gets fired. She starts to do like, a delivery app to deliver food. She delivers some lobster bisque and a saw to, you guessed it, Rebecca at work, and then Rebecca's, like, takes her back to the house. Yeah. Well, Eric's out of town for like, a week, yep. And

Justine Kay 41:35

Edie moves in. Edie moves in, yeah, yeah. I think what interested me so much about that exact delineation you were talking about is that Edie is constantly looking for physical affirmations that she is on this earth. I feel like she's constantly, kind of like floating around, and that's why her decisions are so bad, because she doesn't really like live here, she really is like a figment of an imagination or an idea that she thinks she's she was a bad idea right between her parents, and so she's trying to constantly figure out, am I here or not? And Eric gave her the validation that she is here, so much so that she moves in to his house and raises his daughter well, and

Traci Thomas 42:21

Rebecca gives her that validation too. I mean, Rebecca's like, meanness towards her and curiosity about her, but also the thing that's so interesting about Rebecca, and I think, like, especially in light of the election, and, like, some of the conversations I'm seeing online around white women, in addition to her cruelty, she is generous. Yes,

Justine Kay 42:48

yeah,

Traci Thomas 42:51

it is. It is generous, even if it is manipulative. Generosity, right? Like, I don't think it's Generosity without strings, but she is, we think giving Edie an allowance money. She does let her live in her house. Yeah,

Justine Kay 43:08

she gives her soap and toothbrushes and clothes.

Traci Thomas 43:11

And I think, like my, my read of it is like she's trying to assuage some sort of white guilt.

Justine Kay 43:19

Yeah, white guilt came up a lot. White girl,

Traci Thomas 43:22

I also think she's, to me, she feels like one of those people that when she does something mean, she just has to overcorrect and, like, fix it, yep, yep, yep. Like, the cruelty is tied to the generosity in a lot of

Justine Kay 43:35

ways. For sure, yeah, because she doesn't want karma, real karma, to come back and get her. Yeah.

Traci Thomas 43:39

It's like, transactional, like she gets off on being mean, and she also gets off on like, being the savior, like doing the right thing, you know, being a good white person. And I mean, this will surprise nobody. Unfortunately, Rebecca is my favorite character in the book. What

Justine Kay 43:58

are you serious?

Traci Thomas 44:00

I'm not saying I like her. Yeah, I'm the most interested in her every time she is on the page. I was excited, like, I loved reading this really fucked up lady. Like, I just Eric was meant to me, and I liked Edie a lot, but I felt like E like, I think because, also because the book is in first person, we get to see Rebecca more clearly than we get to see Edie, because Edie's not always reflecting on herself. So like, just like in, in the way that the book works, Rebecca is who we're seeing. And I'm only talking about the main three. I'm not talking about a key because I don't think it's really fair to make her like a favorite character, because she's so peripheral, she's in everything, but she's so peripheral to the book.

Justine Kay 44:47

Yeah, okay, okay, because I was gonna say she's my favorite. Um, that's

Traci Thomas 44:51

nice, because you're nice. And I like a crazy bitch. I love a I love a crazy woman. I like, yeah, I. We're not supposed to call women crazy. But,

Justine Kay 45:01

well, no, these

Speaker 2 45:02

are crazy. Call Rebecca. Yeah, these people are crazy, for sure. There's no other words for her. Yeah.

Justine Kay 45:07

I was really interested in Rebecca's mom's story. Like, who was that person raised by? Especially a person who would adopt a child without wanting to be a mother in their heart of hearts, and like

Traci Thomas 45:19

an older child. They adopt an older, 10 year old, or almost 11 year old,

Justine Kay 45:24

and she's doing all the things, taking her karate class, she's taking on a Comic Con. She's like, doing all the things, but she's also low key, abusing her, trying to go on a run to her and count her calories,

Traci Thomas 45:36

and not doing her hair,

Justine Kay 45:38

not doing her hair, which is the first cardinal sin. Rebecca, no, this

Traci Thomas 45:44

is a this. Listen, I'm a mixed child. Uh huh. I have a white mother, right? I am lucky, because my white mother has curly hair. Oh, okay. And also, my hair is not I have, like, mixed hair, yeah? So it is similar to my mother's hair, right? Yeah, but I know a lot of kids with Caucasian mothers who a lot of black kids with Caucasian mothers who in that hair problem. Well, I mean, in my day, back in my day, that's different.

Justine Kay 46:20

When I see people. I mean, I we all right as black women whose hair grows up, whose hair grows in different crawl patterns, whose hair grows into the we all learn on the internet. Girl, get on the internet and learn how to do somebody's hair. What's wrong with you? Yeah. Oh god. It makes me, yeah, angry.

Traci Thomas 46:37

It is a very clear indication to me if a white woman has or or a white I guess white men have have black children and their hair looks bad. Those white parents don't know black people. They don't have black friends? Nope, they have none. Because they might know a black person, but that person is not their friend, because if that person was their friend, they would protect that child's hair.

Justine Kay 47:09

Yes, yes. And they don't think that child deserves to look beautiful. They don't know how it's even possible. They don't know the road to beauty for that child's hair.

Traci Thomas 47:20

But then again, on the flip side, I do see white people whose kids hair looks bad. Just they have white kids, and I'm just like, well, what's your excuse here?

Justine Kay 47:30

Yeah, well, they just don't care, I guess.

Traci Thomas 47:33

I guess they don't care about hair, about looking presentable. I don't know. Yeah, as my dad used to call children who looked like that. They used to, used to call them ragamuffins. Yeah, that's accurate. Yeah, a little ragamuffin. And they gotta kill out here looking like a ragamuffin. God,

Justine Kay 47:51

like a ragamuffin with

Traci Thomas 47:54

falling out.

Justine Kay 47:56

Her hair is falling out. She did a relaxer by accident, which is a lot of and I love how she did the relaxer by accident, and Edie then goes immediately into her I did a relaxer by accident story. So many black women have that story.

Traci Thomas 48:12

I mean, I really did love the relationship between Akila and and Edie, especially by the end, because I do think that, like it does,

it gives Edie

a sympathetic, yes, a sympathetic relationship, because she doesn't have any

Justine Kay 48:32

in the book, right? Maybe that's why I like Aquila so much, because she makes Edie likable.

Traci Thomas 48:37

Yeah, she does. She helps. She helps Edie in the eyes of the viewer or reader, but also I like it, because I feel like, I feel like Edie is while I like her, she she is so self absorbed, and it's like the one time she sees outside of herself is like this child,

Justine Kay 49:03

yes, that's true. That's true. And even in that she has to see herself in the child so many times in order to get to that level of generosity and gratitude for her. Yeah.

Traci Thomas 49:15

How about the first fucking time we see that kid? Oh, my God, she was I was like, because I we don't know that he has kids, but I just assumed he has kids, and it was gonna be like, these, like, two little bitchy ass white kids, and they're like, there's a black child here. I was like, the nanny brought their child to the party. Like, I was like, Who's this who's this black child? Who's

Justine Kay 49:38

this child? I just knew it was ghost. Yeah, it was in. It

Traci Thomas 49:42

was haunting her.

Justine Kay 49:43

It was haunting her. It

Traci Thomas 49:44

was the ghost of Edie past. Yeah. Okay, so after Edie moves in, Eric comes home a day early, oh, oh, and we discover that Rebecca into like, mosh pits again, more violent. Yes, yeah, physical violence every there's a violence kink in this book for everybody, for sure,

Justine Kay 50:06

and it also makes her feel present. I think that, yeah, like we're

Traci Thomas 50:10

talking about that same I mean, I think that Edie and Rebecca have a lot, a lot in common. There are very similar in their what, what they like, what they need. I think that's why they end up having this, like, weirdly intimate relationship, very

Justine Kay 50:24

comfortable.

Traci Thomas 50:26

Did okay? Did I read this wrong? Why did I think that Edie and Rebecca hooked up? Is it their scene? Not at the end with the painting, but no scene where they're like, in the kitchen, and it's like, yep, they like, run her fingers through her hair, and then it sort of like ends the chapter or the section, yeah? And I thought they were fucking Yeah, but maybe not. I thought so

Justine Kay 50:47

too. I thought there's no way that the writer would not go into what Rebecca finds pleasurable. There's no way she would deny us of that Raven, you wouldn't do that to us, right? That's why I would think so. So I think maybe she almost got there, but again, the physical touch, just reminding everybody that they're here on this earth and not in their own head, making these decisions for the plot, thinking that, right, the Broadway play of their life, right?

Traci Thomas 51:15

Right? People are doing

Justine Kay 51:19

but I thought so too. I know exactly what you're

Traci Thomas 51:20

talking about. I You're right. I would have loved to see a scene where Rebecca is like,

Justine Kay 51:24

Oh, my God, with another woman King, another woman. I would love, yeah,

Traci Thomas 51:28

yeah. Or even, like, when she sees into Rebecca and Eric having sex, ooh, if, like, that was actually a pleasurable scene for one of them, specifically Rebecca, like that would have been interesting. Edie sneaking around, painting everything I

Justine Kay 51:46

know, thinking she's creeped too, thanks.

Traci Thomas 51:49

In a different way, she's like, creepy. It's giving Creepy Crawlers. So yes, Eric comes back. He does a full, full silent treatment for like, a lot of pages, for, like, let's see, for like, 25 pages, um, then they start hooking up again. Yeah, wait, what? What was, what prompts them to start hooking up again, looking again. She

Justine Kay 52:14

walks into the bathroom, and he's in there shaving and listening to the Oh,

Traci Thomas 52:18

right downstairs, and his, like, man's lair. That's right, that's right. He's listening to his, like, weird records that he thinks he's saving, but they're all warmed anyways, right? Yeah, you're such a loser.

Justine Kay 52:27

I know he's such a loser. He thinks he's so cool because he likes disco.

Traci Thomas 52:31

Do you know who? You know who he sort of reminds me of. This is, like, a very this is my favorite loser. I hate him. Oh, he sort of is giving Drake. He's sort of giving

white, yes, giving abreast.

That's correct. Like he thinks he's like, so cool and so hot and like, can handle his liquor so good. Not that, not that Drake. I don't know anything about Drake, but just like, the whole thing, he thinks he's so fucking such hot shit. Yeah. And meanwhile, your little girlfriend and your wife are, like, weirdly, besties, and like, your records are warped. You can't get it up, yeah? Like, there's just like, so it's just like, it's giving loser. And when I think loser. I think Drake. Yeah, that's accurate. I

Justine Kay 53:22

love that. He's your favorite loser. That's such a good

Traci Thomas 53:24

he's my, maybe not favorite. I mean, he's like, my like, when he's like, if I open the dictionary to loser, that's what I see as Drake. And I just want to go on record again, because I've been calling a Drake a loser long before. Ken Drake. Oh, I, I was on, I was on Sam Sanders Show last fall screaming about what a loser Drake is. Like, this guy's such a dork, what a loser. Because I also think calling someone a loser is like, such an extremely like, pointed insult. It is like calling someone an asshole. Like, sure, everyone's an asshole, loser.

You're a loser.

You're a virgin who can't drive. It's very that, um, okay, so they start hooking up again. Then then Rebecca, like, maybe catches them a little bit, or, like, sort of knows. So then they start going like hotels and stuff dangerous.

And then this bitch gets pregnant. She

Justine Kay 54:25

sure does. She's reckless.

Traci Thomas 54:28

He told her he was sterile. Oh, yeah, that's true. He said, I'm sterile. That's why they adopted the kid, because I couldn't get pregnant. Yeah, yeah. I don't know if that's a lie or it's just, you know, it act like sometimes people think they can't get pregnant and they can. I don't, I don't know. I didn't read it necessarily as like a malicious lie, but also I didn't read it as an actual accident. So somewhere in between, yeah,

Justine Kay 54:53

yeah. Then

Traci Thomas 54:54

they're fucking, and then it almost dies. He comes in spots at the hotel, and that's really the end of things for Eric. He does. He is revived. But Eric, it is over. It's over. We never really see Eric again for the last 35 pages, we see him puking at Comic Con because he's done shrooms, yeah, but he becomes a nothing after this scene. Oh, I found the note on page 190 is where I thought that Rebecca and Eric Eddie Edie have sex because I wrote, I've been waiting for this. Edie and Rebecca Bucha and finally, my notes are so crazy. Okay, here's what it is. I look at her face and see her irritation, but underneath it something curious and more fixed, and I wrap my arms around her and regret it, until she reciprocates, which she takes her time to do her body shockingly hard as she pulls me in and runs her fingers through my hair, all of her ingredients, the formalin and ash and under eye cream clarified at close range. Blackout the next day is when she goes to the days in with Eric. He passed out at a days in, a days in, and then I and then also after this is when Rebecca is like, you need to go, yeah, because I guess maybe they don't, maybe her Rebecca don't hook up, but clearly Rebecca wants to, and she thinks that she's, like, won the battle, because clearly there's a battle between Rebecca and Eric for Edie, yeah, yeah. And so I think she thinks, Oh, I did it. And then they're having sex at days in and he merely dies. And she realizes that no, no. And then this is where maybe Edie has the power the most control playing them,

Justine Kay 56:48

yeah, especially the influence that she has at this point over their daughter. Yeah, because officially, now she knows more about their daughter than they do, right?

Traci Thomas 56:57

And she's connected with her, okay, yeah, that's good. So I guess there's, like, one way to read this where it's like Edie has all the power, and then there's another way to read it where she has none, yeah, like, she doesn't have a home, she doesn't have a job. She's living with these people. She is sort of at the whims of these people, but as we find out later, once Rebecca kicks her out, she is able to find a home and a job. So it's not like she's unemployable or un home houseable.

Justine Kay 57:21

Homelessness

bothers her and I don't think unemployment bothers her that much.

Traci Thomas 57:27

No, well, she clearly found she found a job in a house pretty easily, working for these white people, yep, as their babysitter, sex object and companion. Yeah, she's a sex worker, babysitter and like, best friend, all one, yeah, she gets a unspecified allowance. Uh huh, artist, too. Why the fuck does Rebecca shoot the dog? Oh,

Justine Kay 57:51

my God, I think the dog, I guess, is a reminder that, like, there's stuff going on around her that's out of her control, because she's always saying that damn dog, I can't stand the dog. The dog's always barking. No one else hears a dog barking, but she hears his dog barking, but the dog also is this old lady who's like peeking through the windows, always staring at them. So maybe she hates that old lady. Okay, I

Traci Thomas 58:19

have a metaphor.

Justine Kay 58:20

Oh,

Traci Thomas 58:21

tell me what if Edie is the dog and Rebecca is the old lady.

Justine Kay 58:30

Oh, my God, probably looking at Eric across the way.

Traci Thomas 58:35

Rebecca's always peeking around, poking her head in, looking around. It's like grown up. Rebecca is this old lady, and Edie is the dog, and Rebecca fucking hates Edie kills the dog.

Justine Kay 58:51

Oh, my God, that is so accurate. That is so good.

Traci Thomas 58:56

I mean, that's how I see it. There might be a better answer. But I sort of also like the idea that, no, I love it, that the neighbor is just another version of Rebecca.

Justine Kay 59:06

Yeah, she fully that's exactly where Becca is gonna turn into and then

Traci Thomas 59:10

they fucking call the police for like, a week on the street over a dead dog. Because what are they doing here?

Justine Kay 59:16

Because the police have nothing to do,

Traci Thomas 59:18

nothing to do. You live in New Jersey. I

Justine Kay 59:22

sure do. I know your neighborhood, exactly what they're talking about, too. It is exactly what it's like. We had a domestic violence situation. I lived in Essex County too, but a domestic violence situation upstairs from our apartment one apartment ago, me and my family and the police would come in, like, 30 seconds, yeah, because they had nothing to do not New York. No, in New York, you got to call 311, they don't come to the next day, right? You got to log in online. It's the whole thing.

Traci Thomas 59:52

Gotta get in line, yeah? Gotta call Eric Adams the

Justine Kay 59:58

lounge. Yeah. I.

Traci Thomas 1:00:00

Yeah, okay, so the dog is killed. We don't know who did it, but we know who did it. We know he did it. Goes, Rebecca, yeah. We know it was gun girl, but then the police come and harass the two black girls and the doorstep of the home, yep. And I, what I think is interesting about this book is it came out in 2020, and so it came into a world that was very interested in this scene, but it was written before, yeah, and like, I don't know to me that part of the book felt the most contrived and like, the least interesting. Yes, definitely. I think she'd already said all of that, yeah, without having to actually give us the scene. Yes,

Justine Kay 1:00:45

I thought so too. There was a moment right after she got fired on page 84 where she says that she thinks of her parents, not because she misses them, but because sometimes you see a black person above the age of 50 walking down the street, and you just know, they've been through some shit, you know, they said thank you as they bled, and that despite the roaches and instant oatmeal, you are still luckier than they have ever been. I thought that was more than enough for me.

Traci Thomas 1:01:15

Yeah, well, and that that section is in contrast to what she says later about Eric when they're like, out to dinner or whatever, and she's like, she hates him. I gotta find it, because it's one of my it's one of my favorite bits in the whole one of my favorite little bits in the whole book about, like, older men. Oh, oh, it's on two eight, um, she's talking about Eric, and she says, So sure, an older man is a wonder because he has paid 38 years of Con Ed bills and suffered food poisoning and seen the climate reports and still not killed himself. But somehow, after being a woman for 23 years, after the ovarian torsion and student loans and newfangled Nazis and button downs. I too, am still alive, and actually, this is the more remarkable feat. Instead, I let myself be awed by his middling command of the wine list. Yep. I just loved that read, yeah? Like,

Justine Kay 1:02:13

I know. Yeah. I love that read too. Yeah. Of him just being so average,

Traci Thomas 1:02:18

yeah. Okay, so we have to do the end of the book, because we're like so out of time, okay, right? Like the day before she's supposed to get case out of the house, this scene with the cops happen. They physically assault both the women, or the girl and the woman the next day, or that night, Rebecca sleeps in her room. She wakes up, she's miscarrying this baby, they go to the hospital. Rebecca pays for everything. Knows her birthday, like, knows everything about her, about her, yeah, and it is this real moment of like, white woman in action. Then Edie wears a diaper for a while because she's bleeding a lot, but

Justine Kay 1:03:04

she wants to cover this up, this Rebecca beauty.

Traci Thomas 1:03:07

She she goes up, she gets out, Yep, she's done. She gets a job. She gets an apartment. Yep, the end, yeah. What do you make of the ending?

Justine Kay 1:03:18

Oh, my God, I, I, oh, well. And she also paints

Traci Thomas 1:03:22

Rebecca. Oh, right, right. Rebecca gets nude, and she nude her Yeah, in the new apartment

Justine Kay 1:03:28

that Rebecca helped her move into, which is also wild. I loved the ending. I loved that Eric had nothing to do with it, as you said. And I love that it got back to her being an artist, because that also gives her the permission to be unhinged. I thought, you know, she was at the very last moment before she got put down for this procedure. She said, No, I'm an artist. And she finally, like, lived in her truth. She was living her truth in Newark or wherever the hell she was living. That was great.

What about you?

Traci Thomas 1:03:59

I like the ending. I think like, because the book built up so much, I was sort of hoping for a more explosive ending and a less, sort of like, fizzle ending. But I also think it feels right, because that's how life is, like, you live this crazy story, and then it's like, yeah, I got a new apartment, and I never saw those people again. Yes, yes. And like, and like, in 10 years, it'll be like, oh. And then Akilah, like, friended me on Facebook, which was so weird, because I'm not even on Facebook anymore. Yeah, right. Like, it's like, yep. So I did sort of like that part, because it does end up feeling like a story you would tell, like at brunch to your friends. Like, did I ever tell you guys about the white people I lived with for a month?

So it started with

phone sex with dad, and it ended with me miscarrying his baby, his baby in bed with the mom. Yeah. Like, what a story, or with the wife. So I did. I did sort of like that. I mean, I think, like, the thing that this book does that's really cool is it is. Satire. It is sort of a domestic thriller. It is, you know, sort of like a psychological thriller. Like there's like, a lot of genre happening within the book that I think that, like Raven Leilani is playing with that I really liked, and it leaves you sort of feeling a little bit like disheveled, in a way which I would assume is, like, you're sort of like, what did I just read? Which is how I assume that all of those characters would feel that night, that first night a month that, yeah, 80 is gone, out of the house, or whatever. Like, what the fuck? And you know, Rebecca is like, are you done with your little open marriage thing? Or, yeah, right, like she comes home and she's like, Okay, I dropped her off like, Uh huh. Are you done? Uh huh? Are we done? Did we do? We do your experiment? Or what? Yep, yep. So I guess, I guess I did. Like, the ending. The last thing we have to talk about, what we always talk about, is the title and the cover. The book is called luster. The title is sort of this, like, side close up of a woman's shoulder back and then a black woman with curly hair like a fro, kind of shiny.

Justine Kay 1:06:11

What do you think I love it, because there's no specific defined curl pattern either. Yeah, this could be a lot of different people's hair, and it also seems to be not as manipulated. The curls look very, very natural, which, by the end of the book, I understood why? Yeah, look

Traci Thomas 1:06:35

like this. Yeah, yeah. So I thought luster was a word that meant, like, sex. Oh

Justine Kay 1:06:43

no, because I thought of lust. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 1:06:47

I had no idea. Oh yeah. I so I a friend of mine who didn't like the book asked me what I thought of the title soul. And I was like, I don't know. I hadn't thought about it. And she was like, Oh, I she thought the same thing as me, is that luster, like had to do with the word lust. Oh, but really it is a glow of reflected light. Yeah, I'm just reading the definitions a glow of light from within a superficial attractiveness or appearance of excellence, a glass pendant used especially to ornament a candlestick or chandelier, and a fabric with cotton warp and the filling of wool, mohair or alpaca. That's, I guess, a British definition, okay, yeah, sorry, we through tea in the harbors. We don't. But I mean, it's, it's a brilliant title, given what the word actually means, I thought it was sort of a weird title, given mine being like, Oh, it's a book about lust. Like, okay. Because I remember thinking halfway through I was like, I was hoping for more lust, but now that I understand, I mean, I think the like, superficial attractiveness or appearance, yeah, excellence is such a good, like, alternate definition. So I ended up really liking it. Also, the cover is shiny, lusturious, yeah, I don't know what the correct word is for that, but it definitely has that sort of shiny. It's almost

Justine Kay 1:08:09

iridescent on the cover as well. Yeah, it reflects

Traci Thomas 1:08:12

light. It has a sheen. So I I liked it. I overall, I think this was a really fun book. I was hoping you would hate it so that we could fight about it. So people at home, you'll have to fight with me and Justine about it in the DMS, I guess, or come to book club. Yeah, join the Patreon and come to book

Justine Kay 1:08:31

club, yeah. And if you want to see us fight, we could fight, we fight about the bachelor. Yeah, yeah,

Traci Thomas 1:08:35

right, because you always take the side of the worst humans. Shows, yep, like you fucking liked Hannah, sure, from Love is blind. I'm

Justine Kay 1:08:43

a Hannah apologist. I'm not team Hannah, but I was a Hannah apologist. For sure, I'll wear this. I'm

Traci Thomas 1:08:48

not even, I'm not even want to saying her name. Say her name. That's how much I hate it most people. Yeah, awful, yeah. Anyways, you all can catch Justine wherever you get your reality TV podcast, aka two black girls, one rose, and I'll link to everything in the show notes and make sure you listen to the end of today's episode to find out what our December book club pick will be. Yeah, Justine, thank you for doing this with me. This

Justine Kay 1:09:14

was so much fun. Oh, thanks for having me.

Traci Thomas 1:09:16

Everybody else. We will see you in The Stacks. All right, y'all that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening, and thank you again to Justine Kay for joining the show. All right, drum roll please. Now it's what you've all been waiting for. The announcement of our December book club pick. We are going to be reading tacky by rax King. This is an essay collection. It's funny, it's heartfelt, it's a celebration of pop culture and guilty pleasures that shape who we are. It's all about tackiness, nostalgia, things like the Cheesecake Factory. And I can't wait to read it with you. We'll be discussing the book on Wednesday, December 25 Yes, Christmas. Tune in next Wednesday to find out who our guest will be for this episode. If you love this podcast and you want to support the work that I do, if you want inside access and really fun perks, head to patreon.com/thestacks and join the stacks pack and check out my substack at tracithomas.substack.com. make sure you're subscribed to the stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, be sure to leave us a rating and a review for more from the stacks. Follow us on social media@thestackspod on Instagram, threads and Tiktok, and @thestackspod_ on Twitter, and you can check out our website at thestackspodcast.com. This episode of the stacks was edited by Christian Dueñas, with production assistance from Megan Caballero. Our graphic designer is Robin McCreight, and our theme music is from Tagirijus. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

]]>Ep. 347 Luster by Raven Leilani — The Stacks Book Club (Justine Kay)Ep. 346 Curating Climate Conversations with Ayana Elizabeth JohnsonStacks AssistantWed, 20 Nov 2024 08:00:00 +0000https://www.thestackspodcast.com/2024/11/20/ep-346-ayana-elizabeth-johnson65d2b7a49de6215855aa3aaa:66084694f1e135566828a41a:6737c524a2c3d2482a5403f9

This week, we’re joined by marine biologist and author Ayana Elizabeth Johnson to discuss her new book, What If We Get It Right? Visions of Climate Futurism. Ayana shares her approach to curating a wide range of ideas and solutions for climate action, including her climate action Venn diagram. We also explore why profit hasn’t been enough to drive progress and how American culture creates unique obstacles to tackling the climate crisis.

The Stacks Book Club pick for November is Luster by Raven Leilani. We will discuss the book on November 27th with Justine Kay returning as our guest.

LISTEN NOW

Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Google Podcasts | Overcast | Stitcher | Transcript

  

Everything we talk about on today’s episode can be found below in the show notes and on Bookshop.org and Amazon.

To support The Stacks and find out more from this week’s sponsors, click here.

Connect with Ayana: Twitter | Instagram | Website | Substack
Connect with The Stacks: Instagram | Twitter | Shop | Patreon | Goodreads | Substack | Subscribe

To contribute to The Stacks, join The Stacks Pack, and get exclusive perks, check out our Patreon page. If you prefer to support the show with a one time contribution go to paypal.me/thestackspod.

The Stacks participates in affiliate programs. We receive a small commission when products are purchased through links on this website.

TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Traci Thomas 0:08

Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Traci Thomas, and today I am thrilled to welcome to the show. Dr Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson. Ayanna is a marine biologist, policy expert and writer known for her work on climate solutions that center equity and community. Her latest book, what if we get it right? Visions on climate futures is an inspiring look at how we can tackle the climate crisis through hope and actionable change. This book is fantastic, and it fundamentally changed what I think could be possible, not only in climate work, but across many fields as we build a more equitable world today, Ayana and I talk about the importance of details to her work, the power of possibility and how folks can get involved in the ways that will be most impactful and meaningful. Don't forget, our book club pick for November is luster by Raven Leilani. We will be discussing that book on Wednesday, November 27 with Justine Kay. Quick reminder, everything we talk about on each episode of the stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. If you love the stacks and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/the stacks and join the stacks. Pack it is just $5 a month, and you get to be part of the best bookish community that has ever existed in the history of the written word. That is a fact google it. In addition to the yearly perks we always have, like our Discord, our monthly virtual book club meetups of bonus episodes, we also have some really exciting seasonal perks we are gearing up for the stackies, which is the stacks pack, official Best Book Award, voted on by the best people in books. We also have my intense reading tracker spreadsheet that is available from the first of December to the 31st of January. And we have the mega challenge, which will also be rolling out in December. So now is the time to get to the stacks. Pack and get your exclusive perks. Head to patreon.com/the stacks and join now there's another way you can support the show. Stay plugged into what I'm up to, what I'm into, what I'm reading, what I'm watching, my hot takes, my enemies. That's by subscribing to my newsletter unstacked by going to Traci thomas.substack.com, okay, now it's time for my conversation with Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson.

All right, everybody, I am just beyond thrilled to welcome today's guest. I read her newest book called What if we get it right, visions of climate futures. And was immediately smitten. I just fell in love with this book. I fell in love with the idea I've been raving about it. So to get to bring Dr Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson on the podcast today is my great honor. Welcome to the stacks.

Ayana Elizabeth Johnson 2:58

Hello. Thank you for having me. What an intro. Well,

Traci Thomas 3:01

I just, I'm upset. I've been telling people. I'm like, Oh well, I'm unfortunately obsessed with her, and this is just my new personality. You've like, I'm I am such an indoor person. Like, I really do not feel like the nature thing. It's just not my brain outside, I know, but I don't even like to I like to be inside, but I'm telling you now I'm like, oh, sorry, I'm a nature girly. Sorry that my only personality is the outdoors and saving the environment. Like, really busy

Ayana Elizabeth Johnson 3:29

hugging trees. Like, yes, I have coffee with you. It

Traci Thomas 3:31

changed my whole chemistry I feel. But before we even get to that, can you just in 30 seconds or so, which I know is impossible, can you kind of tell folks what? What if we get it right? Is about

Speaker 1 3:41

Sure. Um, the subtitle kind of says. It all visions of climate futures. It's it's largely conversations, 20 transcribed interviews, with people who have helped me see the way forward. It's all about solutions and possibilities and the many answers to that big what if we get it right question? So I talked to our buddy Franklin Leonard about what it would look like to get it right in Hollywood. I talked to farmers and architects and museum curators and policy makers and community organizers, all these different people who are actually in the process of getting it right right now. Who can, like, you know, who are doing that bush walking for us, I guess, to show us the way to make the path?

Traci Thomas 4:31

Yes, and I should tell folks, because I read some of the book off the page, but I mostly listened because the audio book has all of the interviews with the people. And I was saying it's like, sort of like, you get 20 mini podcasts. Totally

Speaker 1 4:45

the Penguin Random House audio team. Was like, I'm sorry, what's your plan? I was like, here's all the audio I have recorded in the last year. Please make this into a book. But

Traci Thomas 4:56

it's so great because I really did feel like I was in. Inside these conversations with you. And I was like, as I'm listening, I'm thinking, like, Okay, how could I be a part of that? Like, how does that How is that exciting to me? How is that confusing to me? What is community, solar, Google search? Like I was, I really felt like, interactive with it, because I felt like I was in this conversation, which I love. So for audiobook, people, this gets my, like, super duper, gold star of audiobook approval.

Speaker 1 5:24

Thank you. I also, like, obsessively micromanaged well as many things as I was allowed near. I'm Art Director for the book, and I also, like, approved all of the interstitial music for the audiobook. Oh

Traci Thomas 5:39

my gosh. I love is this, is this who you are? Yeah, Are you always this? I

Speaker 1 5:45

have, actually, this is, in a way, this is one manifestation of my desire to, like, do a project that has all these angles and like, really get to make it like, what is the full manifestation of a book about climate solutions that brings the energy of like a girl who grew up in 80s and 90s Brooklyn? What is the book that only I could create? But it's, of course, not just a book. It's an audio book. There's art in it, there's poetry in it. There's the anti Apocalypse mixtape inside the back cover, right? There's a website, there's a reading guide, there's there's a whole like voter engagement piece around getting people to vote in line with what makes sense for our planet. And as you ask me, like, is that just my vibe? I mean, the short answer is yes, but the bigger answer actually reminds me of in this small town in the south of France. Bear with me. Matisse designed a chapel when he was sick, the nurse who took care of him was a nun, and after he got better, he was like, How can I help you? And she's like, well, the sisters are looking for a new place for us to worship. And he was like, I'm on it. And he not only designed the architectural plans for the building, he designed the stained glass. He designed the robes for the priests, which are like fully Technicolor dream code, like collages, it's amazing. He designed the candle holders. He designed the pews. He painted the murals the Stations of the Cross inside the chapel like and so I was at a very fragile state in my emotional life when I was there, feeling like very delicate and so I was looking in the museum attached to it, at these little dioramas of these different versions of it that he'd had in his head. And I was looking at the robes, and I was looking at the furniture and the light that came in through like the stained glass windows that turned the light in the confessional pink. And I'm not Catholic at all. And I was crying looking at these dioramas like I don't, I didn't think that was a thing. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 8:03

yeah, yeah. The

Speaker 1 8:05

idea that you could have the luxury, and in modern life, right, it would be such a luxury to have seven years of your life to spend on nothing but making the perfect version right of this thing for people that you really care about. And this book has been the closest I've been able to come to, not I micromanaging as, like, the negative way to put it, but like, really, sort of like curating and directing all these different aspects of the project, which are all important to making sure it lands with the reader or listener in as close to the way, as I hope it would, as it can. How

Traci Thomas 8:43

were you thinking about audience? How were you thinking about who you are making this for? Because part of curation is not just what you want to put out, but making sure that it's the right thing for the people you envision to be receiving

Speaker 1 8:54

it. Yeah, I know that piece of advice, like write for one specific person, and then, of course, anyone can read it. And as I was thinking about like, who was the reader, I had in mind, it was a specific person. It's that person doesn't make sense now, so I won't name them, okay, they they're like, public persona has shifted dramatically in the four years since I started this project. But like, what would it look like for like, someone who's deeply in love with culture, especially black culture, a young black woman who lives in a city, who cares about justice, who cares about the environment, but like, it's not her thing, but like, wants to do right by the Planet, cares about the future of life on Earth. Like, would love to have thriving Ecosystems and Biodiversity, but like, she just, like, I don't know. Are

Traci Thomas 9:48

you talking about me? Are you saying this? A book was written for me. Well, apparently it was like, I literally all of these things you're saying are me? Yeah, I must have been that figure. But

Speaker 1 9:58

there you go. We. Hadn't met yet. Now it would be you. And I was writing for someone I know how old you are. I'm 44 so I was writing for someone in there, like, like, a decade or so younger than me. Well, I'm 38 so close. Okay, close. So, like, who's coming up professionally and trying to find, like, figure out how the dots connect, how they want to use their power and influence as it's growing, because there aren't books for us on the environment in this way. There are like, memoirs of environmental and climate justice leaders who are people of color who paved the way in these beautiful ways. But there's not like a welcome, we need you. Like, here's the landscape and here's some hints at where we could go from here. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 10:47

okay, you're definitely talking to me. This makes sense why this book resonated so much with me. Because I feel like, literally, I mean my climate book, yeah. Like, this is just like, hey, Traci, I wrote this for you. And thank you, Ayanna, so much, I actually came to your work a few years ago because of your piece in black futures. That was, I read that book. I'm such a fan of Jay Wertham and Kimberly and I flagged a few different that was an inspiration for me. Sure that book is, yeah, I mean, another book that just like, blew my socks off. But I flagged a few people who had written in that book as, like, people I would love to have on the show one day. And it was you and Donovan X Ramsey, who's also been on the show, because his piece in there. I was like, I don't know what this person's writing next, but this is it. So it's sort of fun to think about, like, how these things, like, come into our lives, right? Like, it wasn't like, I was like, Oh, I'm gonna go out and find a climate book. It was like, oh, this person wrote this other book, and I really liked that thing they wrote. And like, I want to check it out, but I want to talk for a second about, I think, like, the sort of call to action in the book, which is this Venn diagram of like, what can we do?

Speaker 1 12:03

Can I say something about that? Yes, yes, of course. So that was the kind of invitation that I got to contribute to black futures. I mean, that was a book created in the heart of COVID. All the writing deadlines were during then I had, you know, a million other things going on, right? I was launching a podcast of my own. I was working on my first anthology. I was a surrogate for Elizabeth Warren's campaign. I was doing, like, all of it at once, from my bedroom at my mom's farm, being like, interrupted by roosters in the background, very hard to get clean audio on a farm. And writing that piece called what I know about the ocean I mean, the point was about ocean justice. And that was actually the first book I wanted to write. I wanted to write a book. I pitched this to my editor, who was my editor, then Chris Jackson from one world, and I was like, I want to connect the dots between ocean conservation and social justice. I've worked in the Caribbean for almost a decade. I have all these stories to tell. I want to, like, bring people along on this journey of what it would look like to get it right on oceans for coastal communities. And he was like, great, but like, I don't think anyone wants to read ocean justice the book. I was like, I I see that this is not like a mass market appeal kind of thing. This is like a University Press maybe, yeah, it was sort of academic. The way writing it, I was a little bit textbooky, so I didn't write that book. And that book became that book concept became that article in black futures got it. And my, my position, unpopular though it may be, is that most books could actually be articles. Yes,

Traci Thomas 14:02

that is a very popular opinion around this podcast, all right,

Speaker 1 14:07

and so that was my chance to, yeah, to sort of tell that there weren't a lot of anecdotes in there, but it was sort of a lot of my lessons learned there.

Traci Thomas 14:18

I love that. I want to talk. We're going to come, come back to the ocean, because I want to talk a little bit. I know that's, I know that's your your place, and I have some questions about the ocean, but I want to start sort of with this Venn diagram, and, you know, sort of like this invitation to folks, and it's got three pieces. One is when people are looking to sort of get involved in in their place, in fighting climate change. Find something that you love, find something you're good at, and find something that is needed and insert yourself in that Venn diagram, whatever that looks like for you. And I thought a lot about that, obviously, as I was reading the book and thinking about the different spheres of influence that I have, like, you know, my kids and I. We started growing our own food in our backyard, just like, five things, because we live in LA and, you know, I was like, Oh, I didn't really think of that as, like, being climate just to see, but, like, and it's also not something I'm good at, but I'm really into it. But I'm like, that's really small, right? Like, we're, my hope is to have enough lettuce to make a salad for Thanksgiving, right? Like, it's, like, a very small picture, but I was also thinking about, like, what can I do that's bigger? And I started to feel sort of like stuck, a little bit of like, well, I don't know what fits. I don't know what fits for me. And I think my guess is that other people who read this book probably feel like they don't know what is even possible. So I'm wondering if you can share some things that you've heard that people are doing regular people who aren't necessarily climate people who aren't necessarily people who feel like they can really change the world, or know enough about what's going on, like some of those ideas that you've heard or that you think of,

Speaker 1 15:54

yeah. I mean, I think actually, the of those three circles, the what are you good at? One seems to be the hardest for people. We're very harsh critics of ourselves often and so mean the prompt there is like your skills, your resources, your networks, like really thinking broadly about what you can bring to the table. Because when people think about climate stuff, they're usually thinking about solar panels and electric cars and, like, policy, right? So they're like, I'm not an engineer. I don't have a bunch of money, and I don't write the laws. So how could I possibly help? Right? When, in reality, as you just said, like we do all have these spheres of influence. So some of my favorite anecdotes that I've heard are parents who, like, join the PTA, set up a garden at their kids school. Do a green roof, or solar panels on the roof. Advocate for electric school busses in their district, which is a transition that's slowly happening, which also is, of course, great for your kids health if they're not breathing in exhaust from school busses. So that's one that I really like. There's also, I mean, I tend to hear the more dramatic stories about how people have implemented this, and so I feel compelled to say, like this just absolutely does not mean quit your job. It does not mean go start a nonprofit, right? Often like, where we're most influential is within our current roles, right? So can you ask a climate question to every guest? Does that intersect with their work? Are they connecting those dots in their professional or personal lives? Because I feel like I was actually a little bit concerned that the book might have this effect on people that's like, Great, all these interviews with amazing people who are doing big stuff are interesting, but like, I'm not like them. I don't have those particular skills, right? I'm not the head of Earth justice or a Hollywood executive or a climate reporter or a farmer. And so I was worried it would be a little bit too grand in some way unapproachable, but I've heard on this book tour lots of amazing stories. One, um was this young person who used to listen to my old podcast, how to save a planet where I first talked about this Venn diagram. And they said, um, they were listening to it and like, oh, well, I can do more. I want to do more. What would that look like? And ended up working at the Environmental Protection Agency. They're a great like project manager. We need project managers to make this clean energy transition, let me tell you. And what they did was figure out how to help disadvantaged communities access federal funds for clean energy and climate adaptation. Super practical, absolutely critical, navigating the federal funding and grant process and matching funds and like what is available to who On what grounds and with what paperwork is a pain in the butt, but we need it. And now they're doing that same thing for indigenous tribes in the Midwest, helping tribes access federal funds for climate adaptation. And so I think we need to, like, when we when I say, like, what skills can you bring to the table? It can truly be like, I'm a great project manager, I'm a designer. I build good websites. I'm a great event planner, like all of that stuff, we actually need to it's not just technical and political by a long shot. Yeah.

Traci Thomas 19:30

And I think one of the things you get to towards the end of the book is like, join up, join in. You don't have to start a thing. You can just go to probably, shouldn't. Probably shouldn't. And I think people like, I think, you know, when I think back to like, summer 2020 and the Black Lives Matter movement and people wanting to get involved, and there was this push like, Well, I'm gonna start like, white moms doing shit. And it was like, well, actually, there's all these other moms already doing shit. Like, maybe just call those moms and see what's up. And I think. People are starting to finally understand that, like, there are people in place already who could use your help and your resources and your skills join. And I just love that you said that, like, so explicitly in the book, because I do find that people are like, Oh, okay, great, I'm gonna, like, start a nonprofit about gardening. And it's like, guess what? It exists. Like people probably down the street from you are doing it already. Yeah,

Speaker 1 20:24

I feel like this. So this book isn't, in one way, like an example of collective wisdom that we need for this moment, but the theme that came through this book, which I wasn't expecting, because I interviewed so many different types of people, was community, that we really are all in this together. And it really is when we think about your neighbors down the street like you just said, like, those are the first responders in an emergency. Yeah, right, when we're dealing with these floods and fires, etc, we actually need each other in these, like, very fundamental ways, and so figuring out, like, what your neighborhood association is going to do? Are you going to advocate for municipal composting together, for better bike lanes, for more money, for public transit, for those electric school busses, for kids, etc? I there's a way to think about it that's like, what are you doing in your personal life, right at home, with your own decisions, how your family spends your money and time, etc, how you can be influential on pushing Climate Solutions forward in your professional life and then also in your civic life. Like we think it's it's so much more than voting y'all like, it's a big array of ways that we can be involved in improving our communities and interacting with our elected representatives to get them doing the right stuff faster. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 21:46

one of the things that comes up in the book is that it's pretty early on. I can't remember exactly who said it, but people are less willing to take risks in climate change spaces like, there's sort of this like, maybe this fear of like, maybe the stakes are too high to take of the wrong risk or something. Do you Do you understand why that is? Does it make sense to you? Do you feel like, like, that approach that is is wrong? Do you think being more conservative with climate is the right, the right move, or, do you think it's not?

Speaker 1 22:23

I mean, it depends what we're talking about when it comes to, like, geo engineering, like, should we block the sun to cool the planet? Like, we should be careful with that nonsense. Yes, but there's other stuff where we should just try it. And this, the stakes aren't really that high. Like, if you, you know, join the PTA and try to do some stuff in your kid's school, it doesn't work. You just try again next year, right, right? But, I mean, I think there's this very human fear of failure and like hesitancy to try new things, and that's why the join something. Piece of this is so important because I mean the cliche of power in numbers, yes, but like, it's also that complimentary areas of expertise, approaches, personalities. You need your strategist. You need your like hype person. You need all of these different you need your spreadsheet? Guru, yes,

Traci Thomas 23:22

yes. I'm the one with a spreadsheet. I love a spreadsheet. How did you decide? Okay, wait, this is a very human question from me. I'm ready. Do you understand all of the stuff, like, when you're talking to the banking person and they're explaining the banking as you're interviewing them. Are you? Do you feel like you understand what they're talking about? Because so much of this felt like over my head, in a way, like I'm like, I don't even know what a bond is like. I mean, I do, but there were so many, because you're interviewing so many different kinds of people. Like, how were you sort of synthesizing? Does this make sense for me? Is this new information to me? Like, was I already thinking that? Like, because I know what it's like to interview and there's so much information, and you're trying to make sense of it for your audience and yourself, and to like, connect the dots so that you can then turn this book into a thing. So how much of the information is new to was new to you as you were making this certainly some

Speaker 1 24:23

I mean, it's important to say, perhaps for context, that I knew all these people, right? Of course, personally, knew everybody a bunch of years, yeah, before interviewing for the book, a lot in a lot of situations, I had collaborated with them before, so I had some familiarity with their work, apart from just reading about it, right? That said, yeah, there's a lot of technical stuff that actually got cut from the book. Because I was like, Okay, this is, like, the deep cut on the types of hydrogen for right energy. Like, no one needs to know about all this. And the interviews were also, you know, an hour or a. To two hours long, and then they got cut down to like, 15 pages, right? So we're talking about, like, at least a 50% cut. So a lot, a lot of the jargon and details got cut. I also asked that a lot of clarifying questions in the interviews. These are highly edited on the page. Of course, the audio is the audio, so it's edited. It's doesn't match one to one, the written book I wanted. I didn't want to cut out the complexity of each experts field. I wanted to make them explain themselves as well as possible. And then also know that every single conversation is not for every single reader, yeah? And that's okay, like, if you do not want to talk about, like, investing in clean energy, yeah, startups, like, you could skim that chapter and like, that is totally fine with me. But for some people, they'd be like, ooh, I'd never thought about it this way, yeah, yeah. And so my hope is that you can everyone can get something out of every chapter, but also not every chapter is going to be equally as enticing and applicable to everyone, and that's sort of okay, just to give us all, like a little bit of a smorgasbord of yeah, what's out there?

Traci Thomas 26:21

Yeah. And how did you decide? I mean, I'm sure you know a lot more people doing this work than the 20 people, or, I guess, 20 plus, because some of them are two people in the interview, yeah, doing like, how did you decide which people you wanted to include or which, I guess, more. Also, like, which fields, which, which banking or, like the seeds was one of my favorite. Oh, my God, the seeds. Leah

Speaker 1 26:45

Penniman, I mean, she's a dream. She speaks like a poet. It's phenomenal. Yeah. I mean, how food sovereignty can be part of all of this is super interesting. And the you know, her work in the black diaspora. How did I decide there was a spreadsheet? We love it, of like, different topics. I wanted to cover different people who could fit the bill for different topics. Part of it was like, Are they good at explaining this stuff? Can they welcome people into this in a way? Do they want to explain themselves, or are they just not that kind of person, which is fine, they're just like, I'm doing the work. Someone else can explain it. I wanted it to be people who were approaching this in a more interesting, maybe even a little surprising, way. And I also didn't want to cover stuff that's been really covered a lot. So I didn't actually interview anyone who works on transportation. I feel like we talk about that a lot. I didn't interview someone who works specifically on the clean energy itself, like I didn't talk to a solar or wind power engineer or installer, so I kind of cut some stuff that way. But there is other conversations I wish I could have added to the book. I What would you have added? I would and I started a podcast, a newsletter. What if we get it right? Same title, to keep having these conversations because of this. One was on politics. There's a lot on policy here, but there's not really a lot of politics in the book, in particular, like voting and the importance of like, the role of citizens in pushing for climate solutions. So, yeah, that was the first conversation that I recorded on my book tour. Was with the founders of environmental voter project and lead locally that supports down ballot climate candidates. I also really wanted to include a conversation on fashion, which has a significant carbon footprint. Fast fashion has totally bonkers for many reasons, but one of which is it has a terrible environmental impact on water quality, on greenhouse gas emissions, not to mention workers rights and consumer culture. But there's also, of course, ways to do fashion better. So I wanted to talk to some people who are showing us what that looks like to get it right. Those were the two big ones that I wished I had been able to sneak in before my editor was like, you're done, and it's also very long stop.

Traci Thomas 29:36

Okay, we're gonna take a quick break and we'll be right back. You. Okay, we are back, and I want to talk a little bit about money Ching. Ching, one of the things that comes up throughout the book, many times it comes up in the Hollywood section with Franklin Leonard. It comes up in the sort of like new technologies stuff. It comes. Up in the investor section is that a lot of this climate justice work, activism work, can and would be profitable, that there is money in it to be made by people. And you know, we live in a capitalistic society. And what I found really interesting is that Mike or the question that comes to me is like, then, why aren't we doing it? If it's good for the environment and somebody could become a billionaire off of it, what's the hold up?

Speaker 1 30:35

Well, I mean, people don't like trying new things. Is one. The other is like, I think a lot of these markets are, are new. They're not investable. In the same way, a lot of the companies doing interesting stuff and growing clean energy solutions, for example, are they're not on the stock market. They're startups, right? So you have to, it's for a different kind of investor. In some ways, there's more risk involved, right? And you need just a different level of technical understanding for those smaller companies. Of course, just like in any sector, it does honestly shock me, for some reason that the big banks are still investing so so much in fossil fuel companies, and not just like doing their banking like everyone needs a bank account, like actually helping them expand infrastructure to increase extraction and drilling of fossil fuels. One of the things that really surprised me in researching this book was the stat that since 2015 which is when the UN climate agreement, the Paris Agreement, was signed, that we should, all, you know, reduce our greenhouse gas emissions. Since then, the four big banks in America, JP, Morgan, Chase, Citibank, Wells, Fargo Bank of America, have provided one and a half trillion dollars to fossil fuel companies, and they're, you know, not as profitable as they used to be. They got a lot of competition. There are other ways for these banks to make money. They represent a small part of their overall portfolio, and so it actually wouldn't be that big a deal for the banks to divest from fossil fuels. If I were the head of JP Morgan Chase, or if I were Jamie Dimon, I would be like, this is actually a no brainer. It's great PR, and I'm not really losing any money. I could just move that part of my portfolio investments to something else. So that's been really troubling that we don't have that kind of leadership. But of course, that requires public pressure. So the conversation in this book with Bill McKibben about the fossil fuel divestment movement, which has, you know, they're now like 1600 institutions have divested over $40 trillion which sounds like a lot, but there's so much money in the world, there's a lot more to be done. But I think just to bring this down to like, what we can do as individuals, one of the things that I find really promising is that when it comes to our household decisions, it can feel like they're really small, like the lettuce you are growing for your Thanksgiving dinner is not going to save the planet. It could be very delicious. I hope it's at least delicious sweetest family activity with your kiddos. Yeah. But the thing that we can do as households that makes the biggest difference actually, is making sure we are not investing in fossil fuel corporations that we are not supporting the further build out in the wrong direction, away from the clean energy future that we need. There's this analysis that's like, if you have $50,000 saved for your retirement, and that money is not in a clean fund, a fossil free fund, then your money is doing more harm than any amount of good that you could be doing, riding your bike, composting my lettuce, planting your lettuce, etc, because that money is being lent back out right in some portion of it to fossil fuel companies. And that was actually a real eye opener for me, because as much as people are like, I don't know where to start, I'm like, this will take you one day of research and paperwork, and then you're done. And I remember feeling so relieved when I did that to literally not be investing in the problem anymore. So there's two websites that I would recommend people check out. One is bank for good.org, and the other is green portfolio.com, so you can. They have, like, a list of all sorts of different options that for, yeah, for better places to keep your money, and

Traci Thomas 35:06

we'll link to that and everything else in the show notes. So first and find it super easily. Okay, you know, we talked about hope at the end of the book. You talk about hope as, like, this thing that's, like, it's great. If you have it, that's great, but, like, you don't need it. You don't need it. You don't have to be hopeful. You don't have optional hope and joy separate them. In your mind, you can experience joy without being hopeful. You can experience hope without being joyful. I guess I have one sort of downer question. I mean, I have more than one, but this is the one I'm most interested in, am I? Am I wrong to be worried that the thing that needs to be changed, about the approach to the climate or the things that need to be changed feels so fundamental to American identity, like white supremacy, individualism, capitalism, obsession with ownership, that even though we have all the tools, which so many of your people even say, barbecues and big trucks, yes, just like all of these things, it just feels like I'm reading it, and I'm like, Yes, I can do that. I would. I would be a part of this. Like, I'm down with this. We have the tools. I don't even know what the tools are, but we have them. Like, but also it's gonna take divesting from this idea that being individual is the greatest thing in the world. And, like, that's what freaks me out.

Speaker 1 36:37

Yeah. Well, I mean, I think is being individual the greatest thing

Traci Thomas 36:42

in the world? No, no, I don't think so. But I feel like that's American culture. I

Speaker 1 36:46

know. I mean, I think I say it that way, because I feel like once we start to name these barriers, we're like, right? Okay, maybe that is a little bit ridiculous, you know, and that, that's my hope. Anyway, I was actually surprised how many people mentioned private property as a problem. The way that we have ownership in America. Certainly, our consumer culture is problematic, and I worry, actually, I think you may be getting at this as as well, this psychology of it, our identities are wrapped up in a certain way of doing things. One of the things that really blew my mind was a study a bunch of years ago now that men didn't want to carry reusable bags because it was too feminine. And I was like, Oh, we are

Traci Thomas 37:45

screwed. Men are not okay.

Speaker 1 37:48

Like, if a reusable bag is threatening your manhood, A, that's on you and B, how are we ever going to get anywhere, right? Yeah, and it's the same thing with the cars we choose. It's the same thing with our diets. So there really has to be underlying all of this, a cultural shift. And so for people who are listening, who have any sort of cultural influence, who are helping to shape what is the status quo, what is aspirational, we need to change what that looks like. It is not, you know, an enormous closet with more outfits than any one person could ever wear. It is not a truck that gets nine miles to the gallon, right, right? There are other ways to live that are just as delightful and fulfilling, if not more. And I feel like my concern is that we are so fragile and many of us unhealthy, emotionally psychologically, that we're attempting to fill those gaps of being needed or wanted or feeling safe and secure with these lifestyle choices that make no sense, like the videos that I see on Tiktok of people with their disposable everything, yeah, and the refilling videos and the like 50 Stanley Cups in different colors. I'm like, Do you guys remember that we invented reusable cups so we could just have one and keep reusable have

Traci Thomas 39:22

one? Keep reusable, have one reusable cup. Yeah, yeah. So

Speaker 1 39:26

I do very much worry that the cultural barrier is the big one, and that's why I've designed the book to try to reach people in a cultural context. Why I've designed the book tour to be a series of cultural moments, you know, with some some celebrities, with different people in every city, really trying to, like, meet the moment and the vibe that we need. And say, like you. Yes, this is serious. Like, we can take climate change seriously, but we should not be taking ourselves seriously. Like, let that shit go.

Traci Thomas 40:07

Yeah, yeah. What's so fun, funny to me is, like, I think what is easy for me to think of for myself is, like, these little, small things that I do in the household, because I feel like, that's what we've been told matters, right? It's like you have to recycle. And when I read the book, you know, I turned to my husband and I was like, Why have I never thought of reduce and reuse? There you go. And I have, in some ways, right? Like I carry my one reusable water bottle, not made of plastic, though it has a little plastic on the top. But, you know, I It needs a top. It needs a lid. The single use thing, that's the single use. Yes, exactly. But like, I feel like I get so stuck in the What can I do as like, the head of my household? And I think that, I think that it's easy to forget, and maybe it's by design that we're not thinking of these solutions like bigger or some of us, me, not you, obviously you are. But like, as part of a bigger community, or like a bigger sphere of influence, that's just really helpful to hear you say some of that, it

Speaker 1 41:17

is so American, right? Yeah, to get caught up in what's happening in your personal life and in your home, and that becomes so all consuming. Yeah, we don't have the time or energy to be a larger part of the societal changes that are needed if you do a slightly less good job at recycling, but that means you are out in your community advocating for better building codes, for example, something extremely dorky, but necessary. Yeah, that's great. I don't care, you know, I feel like there's a limited amount of energy we each have, and if we're all obsessing over the small stuff at home. We're not going to get there. I mean, do that stuff, but as you sort of were getting at, I think this is a major failing of the environmental movement, that it's pushed us towards this, not only individual but generic list of things that we should do, we should vote, we should protest, we should donate, we should spread the word, we should lower our carbon footprint. But it's all, none of that is like, join with your neighbors and like, figure out your role in the broader systems changes that we need to see. I get very worried about that, especially given that California just sued Exxon because recycling is basically a lie. Yeah? Like those three arrows with the number on the bottom of your plastic containers, those don't actually mean it's recyclable. That is just a number signifying what type of plastic it is, which is the most infuriating green washing example I could think of. And now they're getting sued for, like, lying to all of us. We could just keep buying all this stuff and just put it in the bin, and it would be fine. Like, best case scenario, you can recycle a piece of plastic, like, twice before it degrades beyond usability, whereas, like, aluminum cans, paper, like, those are the things we should be using and recycling. So I feel like we don't even have a basic knowledge of, yeah, that kind of stuff, because fossil fuel companies are the ones making plastics. Like, plastic is made from fossil fuels, and as we switch to clean energy and EVs, they're just building more plastic factories, right, right?

Traci Thomas 43:35

I mean, this is like, this is why people myself feel so like, it's so frustrating. It's just feels like frustrating. It's like, I'm like, buying these, like, reusable bags for my kids lunches. And Exxon is like, fuck you. We've been lying for 20 years. And it's like, but what about my little reusable bag?

Ayana Elizabeth Johnson 43:54

Yeah,

Traci Thomas 43:55

so like, the scope just feels automatic. It's like, it's like, when you think about a regular, like, working class person who makes, like, however much money a year, and then you think of Elon Musk, you're just, like, these two things, how are these on the same spectrum, right? Like, they have seeds, and you have billions of dollars of fucking over the planet, like, and we're supposed to be working together on this. Like, yeah, just it's so it's so hard to

Speaker 1 44:24

like things that I that motivate me to keep going, yeah, really the community level stuff, yeah? Like, there's so much good that is happening. I mean, it was absolutely horrifying to see the hurricanes come through the South, right? Just a few weeks ago, and it was so heartwarming to see how neighbors stepped up and helped each other. And I feel like in this moment where climate change is causing these types of extreme weather that are we're not used to. Do in these places, right? You're not supposed to have hurricanes that far inland. No. Like, what does that mean for how we need to show up and take care of each other and plan for the future? And I don't know. I feel like this. There's a very fundamental piece of getting it right on climate change, that's just like, what does it mean to be a good human, yeah, what does it mean to be a good neighbor? What does it mean to do your part? What does it mean to not take more than your share? What does it mean to share? Yeah, one of the things that I like dream about is each community having its own repair shop. I feel like we throw away so many things. We're like, I don't know to fix this. I don't know there's like, not an easy place to get replacement parts. Forget it. Like, take your toaster down to the community repair shop, your blender, your roller skates, whatever. And like, get a new gasket or washer or like, whatever you need, right? Have someone fix that little motor. And the same with one another thing I love is, like tool sharing, like it was ever every neighborhood had a spreadsheet that's like, here's all the stuff in my garage. We actually don't all need our own versions of all of these tools. Yeah, no one's using them, 24/7, like losing them. Can I borrow your Sledgehammer for an hour instead of buying one? Yes, of course. You know, that's

Traci Thomas 46:28

such a great idea. I mean, that's, that's something that someone could do, and they're totally doable. Like, knock on the door and be like, I'm putting together this spreadsheet. Here's the Google link. Like, come through your tools, if you're a spreadsheet or person, I want to ask you a little bit about your process. First and foremost, how do you like to write, how many hours a day, how often music or No, haphazard snacks and beverages? Tell me about it. Now

Speaker 1 46:57

we're really getting into it. Yeah, I learned about myself probably a decade ago that I have to just write when inspiration strikes, which is very frustrating, because it's super inconvenient. I'm like, and apparently it's now I gotta go by Yeah, and drop everything and just write it down, because I the thoughts just come and go out of my head. And it's also those, not just inspiration strikes, but when motivation strikes, you know, and as a person who doesn't have her own children, who, like, has a lot of flexibility, I don't have a nine to five job, I can take advantage of that much more so than other people, which is very lucky, and also, sort of by design. So always beverages, usually like a tea and a water. What kind of tea I don't have a whole tea drawer, it really depends. Okay, dandelion root tea was very high, almost for a while. There something a little bit like savory and intense music. I need complete silence when I'm editing. I can write with a little music, but I can't edit with I need just absolutely to be like in zero stimulation, just and I edit by hand. So you print out pages. Print it out. Yeah, I have to see the words on the page in relation to each other, and I it's sort of insane, like so yes, I did all these interviews, but I also wrote a bunch of essays of my own in the book. I probably edited each chapter five to 10 times by hand, wow. And then transcribed those edits and to the listeners who are like, you're wasting trees. Like, I also printed 10s of 1000s of copies of this book, so, yeah,

Traci Thomas 48:53

some point we got it. Paper is recyclable.

Speaker 1 48:56

I didn't even recycle it. I kept it all for my archive, which is not something that I'm, like, really obsessed with, but I was actually going back to look at previous drafts in hard copy as I was writing. But for the interviews, I physically cut and pasted pieces together because I have, like, 40 pages got to become like 14. What does that look like, what are the different chunks that I need? How do they, like, physically fit together as I move them around, like, spread them all out on my living room floor and, like, remix.

Traci Thomas 49:30

Have you ever posted those? Any of those on social media? There's some

Speaker 1 49:33

photos of okay, I want to see that, so I'll share those with you. But yeah, I mean, I am an obsessive editor. Okay, I write slowly, end quickly, but the editing is relentless, like you really have to rip it out of my hands, because I'm always like, is there a more clear way to say this? Is there a more compelling or elegant way to say this? I. Um, is there more concise way to say this? And so, yeah, up until the very end, I was just like, cutting, cutting, cutting. It's a long book because it's transcribed interviews, but yeah, I really, I don't feel like there's a lot that's extra actually in there. No, I

Traci Thomas 50:18

mean, I was like, I could do more. I could I could have spent, I could spend, like, days and days and days on this book. I just think, I think it's perfect. Oh, this is, like, such a weird question, but I love your voice so much. Do you like your voice, or do you hate the sound of your voice, like every other person on the face of the earth?

Speaker 1 50:39

I was raised as a jazz singer, okay, and so I'm very much tuned into not just the tone of the voice, but sort of the melody of how we speak. And I am a person who watches the game tapes. So when I was hosting a podcast, I was the only person on our team of producers and reporters who would listen to it after it was aired, to try to experience it as our listeners were experiencing it, and say, oh, that didn't really land because of this intonation, this pause, this that sounds sort of annoying and like nasally, like I really do critique that stuff, because I want people to not be distracted, yeah, by my voice. And also, this is a weird detail to share, but I was so concerned with not having a high pitched, girly, unserious voice. I like, love a low voice. Across genders. I'm like, Give me that. Yes, you know, rich, deep tone, and I have a very low singing voice, but when I'm speaking, it's not very low. And I tried to make my voice lower when I was podcasting, and I actually damaged my voice, wow. And I was in voice therapy for like, a year to regain my normal speaking voice. I had like, nodes growing on my vocal cords. I had, like, all this, or all my tension in my throat. So I was, like, trying so, so you learned your lesson. I learned my lesson perfect, just the way you are. It is the way it is. But I'm obsessive about editing likes out of audio. So I don't know who edits your audio, but I hope they will delete some of those.

Traci Thomas 52:30

I say, like so much. People hate it. I know it's just, I'm a valley grown from California. That's just who I am. I'm a liker. And, you know, I think a lot about this, because I think like, like, I think about the ways that women are trivialized for our voices and and are made, made to be, made to seem un important because we say like, or we have a high pitched Voice, or whatever it is. And I refute this. I refute this idea that I should have to change how I speak, because it makes you think that I'm stupid when I'm not stupid. You should just be able to listen to people. I mean, there's this great book called word slut. Have you heard of this? No, I want to hear about it. It's all about language and the way and feminism and the ways that women's voices are critiqued, whether it's vocal fry or high pitched or saying like. And she talks about the Linguistics of the word like, and what women are actually doing with the word like. And she talks about like, what you're doing, where you're saying to me, how a lot of men hate this they hate this idea. They think that you're interrupting it. I think, whatever, but it's actually a way for women to show that they're paying attention. And it's like this whole cultural study of the way that women use language, and she even talks about words, how words about men are always positive, whereas like, like Sir is always positive, but madam can also be a sex worker, right? Or a princess and a prince. A princess can be a total bitch, she can be spoiled, she can be that, but a prince is just a prince or a king and a queen, right? And so she gets into this whole thing about language. And that really changed how I because I used to be very insecure about saying like. I used to be very insecure about talking like a valley girl, and people still sometimes say things to me about it, but I feel more confident in it, because I feel like it doesn't make me any less smart. And if that's if that's your problem with me, maybe that's your problem and not my problem. Yeah, you know, that's my chesty rant about it, but I think there's

Speaker 1 54:34

something about really having been brought up in jazz music that I have a very particular relationship with my voice, which is not to critique other people's, but to say, and I think it's also because of the things that I'm talking about. Yeah, like, I don't want to annoy people when I'm talking about climate solutions, I'm desperately trying to welcome them in. So there's already. Bit of that strategic like, if I can sound soothing or melodic, or, you know, approachable or cool or whatever, then maybe more people will roll up their sleeves and

Traci Thomas 55:13

have, yeah, I think that's so funny, because I think about this too with this show, because books are often so people have such a hard time having an entry point because it feels so stiff. People are so smart, it's so pretentious. And so one of the things that I always try to do is welcome people in by saying, you know, I'm just as stupid as you like. You know, this is a safe space to talk about books, whether you have a master's degree in fiction or whether you're me and you just like to read. And so it's similar to, sort of what you're talking about, stupid, or you stupid, no, but I think sometimes people feel like they're not enough. They're not like so many people like, I'm not a reader and I'm like, you read 100 books a year. What do you mean? You're not a reader, you read books a year. Yeah. So I think I do think about, you know, how I speak, sort of similarly to you, but also different, because I think I'm inviting people in in a different to a different space, in a different way. And I think for you, it's interesting to think about how you how you think of your voice as a tool to get your message across and to invite people in. It's

Speaker 1 56:22

all of it. It's your voice. It's your like. I've thought a lot about what I wear, yeah, for and honestly, speaking to teenagers is the most intimidating, of course, right? How do I get these kids that again, cool and want in climate jobs? Yeah? I mean, I think about all of these things about how I am a messenger, and I really do see my role in the climate movement as one of welcomer. And so what would it mean to make more people feel welcome, to help more people find their roles? And I don't think it's superficial at all to think about the way we talk, the way we present ourselves, the way we write, the way we do a book tour, the way we design our books, the way we create websites and other things around our books as part of signaling to people that they are welcome that this is for them, right? Okay, I

Traci Thomas 57:23

just have two more questions for you all right. One is, what is the least sexy, nerdiest, esoteric thing you have learned on this journey with this book?

Speaker 1 57:35

Yeah. So this is a question I ask everyone I interview about their least sexy, nerdiest, most esoteric climate solution. Got some very good answers the journey of making this book. I mean, I don't know if I guess I re learned it. It's okay to sweat the small stuff. The details really matter, and they add up. I don't work at any minute spent on a detail of this project.

Traci Thomas 58:02

Yeah, I love that. Okay, if you could have one person dead or alive read this book, who would you want it to be?

Speaker 1 58:09

Ooh, would they so the question is, would they read it and then would it influence them? Or would they just turn the pages?

Traci Thomas 58:18

You know what? I'm gonna let you pick whichever one of those is more exciting to you.

Speaker 1 58:23

I mean, I cringe to say this, but I feel like American politics is such a shit show, like if I could get Donald Trump or Elon Musk to not just turn the pages but actually read and absorb this book about the problems, about the possibilities, about who's getting screwed, about all the solutions we have that would be the game changer, because these are people who have so much power and influence over like half this country, yeah, who are absolutely not leading us down the path to climate solutions and a safe future. But could, I mean, one of the things that really stands out to me is it's Iowa and Texas that have the most wind energy in the United States. You know, it's not because there's a bunch of hippies that move there. It's because it makes economic sense and they're good jobs, and the battery manufacturing for EVs is in the South and the Midwest, right, all of these places that desperately need climate solutions, that are being underserved by conservative climate science denying politicians like, cut that out, like there are honest conversations to be had about which policies would be most effective, or cost effective, or just etc. But we're not even having those conversations. We're having a like, is science real state of the debate still, which is like? Not a debate. It's just like you're rejecting reality. And I find that to be so terrifying about our country is we don't actually have agreement on a basic set of facts anymore. Yeah, yeah. And so yeah, I would love and even more deeply frustrating is a lot of the politicians are just pretending to be climate deniers. They know full well that it's right, but it's become politicized and makes it impossible to get reelected in some places, if you just acknowledge the truth of what we're all experiencing. So yeah, that's that would be great. But, you know, I don't know that Trump reads books, so, no, a long shot.

Traci Thomas 1:00:42

Yeah, no, that would be great. That is what we need. Everyone at home. You can get your copy of, what if we get it right, visions of climate futures. Wherever you get your books. You could also get it from the library. If you wanted to reuse, you could request it at your library. You should see, make sure it's there, make sure it's at your local library. And I the audiobook reveals in your audiobooks and Ayana. Thank you so much, first for writing this book, but also for coming on the show. This was such a pleasure, an

Speaker 1 1:01:11

honor and a pleasure, and your review that you posted on Instagram is my favorite review of the book. It is so glorious and generous and welcoming and like, specific enough that I know you actually read the whole thing.

Traci Thomas 1:01:26

Oh, I read the whole thing. I did. I read it. I listened to it every single moment. I just, I just love this book. I don't, I don't even, I didn't think I was going to and so I wrote it for you. Apparently, it turns out. But like, you know, sometimes you go into a book like, Oh, I'm curious about this thing, but, like, it's probably like, it's probably, you know, whatever, I probably won't care. And it was when I got to the, like, the logging, farming guy, like, very early I was in the airport, and I was like, Oh, this is this book is for me. Like, I was like, like, I was liking it, but it was that interview. And then I think that one closely goes into seeds. I think seeds is next. And I was like, oh, okay, I'm actually exactly where I'm supposed to be with this book. Like, this was this book entered my life for a reason. Like, I'm so glad I'm here. And I just like, was so, yeah,

Speaker 1 1:02:16

wait to see what you do next. What is in the heart of your comment?

Traci Thomas 1:02:19

I will. I'm gonna keep you I'm also gonna keep you posted on the lettuce I need. I need constant lettuce update. Set up a live cam.

Speaker 1 1:02:29

We also, we grew some carrots from seed. Okay, they are sprouting from seed. By myself. Harvesting carrots is one of my favorite things in the world. It feels like pure magic to pull a carrot out of the soil is just like, I'm sorry, what is this delicious, bright orange.

Traci Thomas 1:02:48

That's okay. That's okay. Some of the seeds didn't work. But anyways, I'm so excited about this. I will keep you posted. I It's I think about you in this book. Like, so far, every day since I finished it, I think about it. I'm like, wow. What would that look like? What is this like, you know, and even like small shit, like talking to my kids about just like, you know, I know that's again, really small, really little. But like having new ways of thinking about or like of how to communicate to them what they're doing and how it's connected to other people, especially

Speaker 1 1:03:14

for young people who are who know that we're doing it wrong on COVID right now who are worried about their futures. The question is, how can we show them that we have the solutions, that they can be part of them? And actually, my next book project, I think, is going to be a children's book or my series, mostly to help parents talk about with their kids, and to help kids think about ways that they can, yeah, well, I've

Traci Thomas 1:03:41

got twin, almost five year olds, and so they will be right fast. Yeah, right for them. Your for your adult book was for me, your kid books will be for the minimal perfect you got it well. Thank you so much. And everyone get the book, and everyone else will see you in the stacks.

All right, y'all that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening, and thank you again to Ayana Elizabeth Johnson for joining the show. And I'd also like to say a huge thank you to Carla, Bruce Eddings and Janissa Shrestha for helping to make this conversation possible. Don't forget the stacks book club pick for November is luster by Raven Leilani, and we will be discussing that book on Wednesday, November 27 with Justine Kay. If you love this podcast and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/thestacks and join the stacks pack and check out my substack at tracithomas.substack.com. make sure you're subscribed to the stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, be sure to leave us a rating and a review for more from the stacks. Follow us on social media@thestackspod on Instagram, threads and Tiktok, and @thestackspod_ on Twitter, and you can check out our website at thestackspodcast.com.this episode of the stats was edited by Christian Dueñas, with production assistance from Megan Caballero. Our graphic designer is Robin McCreight, and our theme music is from Tagirijus. The Stacks is created and produced by me Traci Thomas.

]]>Ep. 346 Curating Climate Conversations with Ayana Elizabeth JohnsonEp. 345 The Fear of Vulnerability with Jason ReynoldsStacks AssistantWed, 13 Nov 2024 08:00:00 +0000https://www.thestackspodcast.com/2024/11/13/ep-345-jason-reynolds65d2b7a49de6215855aa3aaa:66084694f1e135566828a41a:6731d7d857482f2643fc264f

This week, #1 New York Times bestselling author Jason Reynolds joins us to discuss his latest book, Twenty-Four Seconds from Now . . .: A Love Story. Jason shares why he chose to tell the story of a young Black boy on the brink of a life-changing moment and reflects on vulnerability, intimacy, and the power of connecting with audiences. We also explore Jason’s unique approach to storytelling and what it means to see yourself within the literary canon.

The Stacks Book Club pick for November is Luster by Raven Leilani. We will discuss the book on November 27th with Justine Kay returning as our guest.

LISTEN NOW

Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Google Podcasts | Overcast | Stitcher | Transcript

  

Everything we talk about on today’s episode can be found below in the show notes and on Bookshop.org and Amazon.

To support The Stacks and find out more from this week’s sponsors, click here.

Connect with Jason: Twitter | Instagram | Website
Connect with The Stacks: Instagram | Twitter | Shop | Patreon | Goodreads | Substack | Subscribe

To contribute to The Stacks, join The Stacks Pack, and get exclusive perks, check out our Patreon page. If you prefer to support the show with a one time contribution go to paypal.me/thestackspod.

The Stacks participates in affiliate programs. We receive a small commission when products are purchased through links on this website.

TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Traci Thomas 0:09

Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Traci Thomas, and today I am thrilled to welcome back to the stacks. Friend of the pod, MacArthur Genius and number one New York Times best selling author Jason Reynolds, his latest book is called 24 seconds from now, and it is a heartfelt exploration of young love and the complexities of teenage relationships. The book has a unique reverse timeline through which Jason captures the nuances of intimacy, family dynamics and personal growth. Today, Jason and I talk about the fallacy of masculinity, the risks and rewards of powerful storytelling, and how Jason feels about being a part of the quote, unquote, literary canon. Don't forget, our book club pick for November is luster by Raven Leilani, and we will be discussing that book on Wednesday, November 27 with Justine Kay. Quick reminder, everything we talk about on each episode of the stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. Listen up if you love the stacks and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/the stacks and join now. It is just $5 a month, and when you join, you get to be a part of our incredible discord community. You get to join our monthly virtual book club meetups, and you get bonus episodes each month. And during this time of year, you also get access to the mega challenge. You also get to vote on the stackies, which are the stacks pack exclusive literary awards. And you get your very own reading tracker. So if you've been considering joining the stacks pack, now is the time to do it by going to patreon.com/the stacks. And in addition to all those perks, you also get to know that your support makes it possible for me to make this black woman run independent book podcast. Another fun perk of joining the stacks back is that you get a shout out on this very show. So thank you to Brioni, nuosu, Kalia, Burke, yasina, Sotelo and Sarah Zettel. If you're less interested in community, but you still want to support the work of the show and keep up with all of my hot takes, bookish opinions, pop culture, plus whatever else I'm up to go to Traci, thomas.substack.com subscribe to my newsletter. It goes directly to your email inbox, and it also helps the show be made every single week. Okay, that's it. Thank you all now it's time for my conversation with Jason Reynolds.

All right, everybody. I am, of course, so excited to bring to you friends of the pod, one of my favorite people in the book world, but maybe period, just the greatest, Jason Reynolds. He's here today for his newest book. It's called 24 seconds from now, I'm gonna let him tell you about it. But Jason, welcome back

Jason Reynolds 2:58

to the stacks. Thanks. Traci, always good to see you. Always good to

Traci Thomas 3:01

see you. I feel like I was like, There's Jason. Okay, tell the people in about 24 seconds or less, what the book is about,

Jason Reynolds 3:10

nice, 24 seconds from now is, is a love story from the perspective of a kid named neon Benton, who's in love with his girlfriend, Aria, and they've been together for two years and have decided that they're ready to have sex. And so this is the story of his interior workings as he navigates and connects to that part of himself and trying to figure out how to manage that part of his relationship with his other half. Okay,

Traci Thomas 3:38

so what's great for me is that I remember talking about this book with you on tour. This is, I think, I think at the time, you said it was the first time you were really talking about the book publicly, and you sort of told us about it, and everyone in the audience was like, Ooh, it's gonna be, like, so intense, like, whatever, people are gonna freak out. Have the people freaked out about it? Are you getting pushback at all about writing this book about young kids and sex?

Jason Reynolds 4:01

No. So strangely enough, so far I haven't really gotten not that. Here's the thing, I don't really look for it, so maybe it might be sort of going through the gauntlet of censorship, but I haven't heard anything yet. Yeah, it's weird. I usually there's always such a fuss, but no, not yet. But this also means that, like, there are probably libraries that never got it, there are probably schools that never got it right. It just never entered in, let alone be taken out,

Traci Thomas 4:29

right, right, right. I want to Okay. I want to know why you wanted to write this book. I've heard you talk about, like, sort of how you wrote it, that you like, you know, thought of you talk to your brother, you talk to your friends. But I just want to know, like, where this idea even came from, from you, and why it was one that stuck, like, why it was one that was worth actually writing a book about for you.

Jason Reynolds 4:47

Yeah, I think, to be honest with you, I think there are lots of things that are never quite spoken about as it pertains to boyhood, right as. It pertains to childhood in general, right? But I think boyhood is such a cabinet of secrets for all sorts of reasons, right, the fear of vulnerability, the fear of one's own emotions, right? I think boys have been raised to be afraid of themselves. I think there's all sorts of implications of what it might mean to have a healthy sexual relationship with yourself and your partner, because the boy is supposed to be a walking penis, right? He's supposed to sort of be some strange, rabid animal who is on the hunt and on the prowl and all. You know, all the ways that we talk about what it is to be a teenage boy. And I just, I just don't know if that's the full story, right? Are hormones raging? Absolutely. Hormones are raging. Testosterone is at a high and and curiosity is even higher, right? Those things are true, but it does not suddenly dehumanize, right? Boy, right? Those things don't override the boy's sort of personality and it's humanity. Now social pressures might do that sometimes. But who we but who we really are, or who I was and who most of my friends were, were like, sweethearts, right? Right? We were, we were, we were gentlemen and we were knuckleheads, both, right? Like, I missed the days of the gentleman gangster. Yeah, we need to talk about the gentleman gangster, right? Where they were, these guys who were, like, you knew they were kind of bad guys, but they but they were sweet, and they were kind and they were gentle, right? And I, and I, and though I'm no gangster, I think there is something about the balance of, like, yes, this boy is the sort of stereotypical, rambunctious boy. And also, and also a cupcake, because that's closer to the truth,

Traci Thomas 6:42

right? Do you feel like in writing about this stuff, like, is it a challenge for you because you're an adult and like, this is such, when I think about, like, writing about kids and sex, I'm sort of like, isn't that weird for an adult to do that? But then I'm also like, well, your job is to write about things for kids. So, but do you feel like you struggle to, like, find that balance of like, I don't want to be creepy or like, pervy or whatever, like, I don't want people to think that. Like, do you hear what I'm getting at?

Jason Reynolds 7:12

Yeah, of course, of course. I mean, it's the reason why there's no actual sex scene in the book, sure. Right? Like, I don't, I don't write a sex scene because I just couldn't do it, right? That's too much for me, right? Like, and I know people are like, No, you got to be an artist. Just make your art. I'm like, yeah, there's some level of responsibility that that one has to move with, especially when you're writing for this population. So there's no actual sex scene. And as you know, the book moves backwards, so we have this sort of interesting scene in the beginning of the book where it's sort of, you know, It's as hot and bothered as it gets, and then it moves in the opposite direction, right? So that we actually don't see the sex scene. The sex scene would be in the future, but we're going into the past, right? So, so, of course, but the other thing is, is that I understand what it is to be a man, to be a heterosexual, cisgender male, right? And be in the energy that comes with that, right? And so it was so, so there was no way for me to remove or or to pretend like whatever that energy is would show itself in the language and in the work, even if I got it right, right, my argument is that, like Judy Blume, could have written the sex scene 10 times over, right? Some of my, some of my contemporaries, right, could have written the sex scene 10 times over. Some of them have written many, many sex scenes and write books, but because they are women or because they are queer, it doesn't necessarily read with the same tone that it perhaps would had it been me writing about two teenagers having sex. It's a weird sort of thing that I really had to think about and make some tough decisions. And it's that very thing, by the way, Traci, that I'm also in the subtext trying to address in the book. Right, right? Like, do young boys understand what it is to be in that body? Do they understand the energy that they that they bring into a room? Do they understand how temperature can change if they aren't aware or intentional about who they are and how they are around their counterparts,

Traci Thomas 9:05

okay, so, but do you have like, I guess my question is, how come there are so many YA books that involve sex, that are written by women and like queer people like romance? It's like there's so many, I feel like there's so many queer ya romances in a way that, like, I just don't even it doesn't feel I mean, obviously I'm not a huge ya reader, so this is what I see. But I just like, there's so many stories about like queer children in romantic relationships, and not as many that I feel like are, especially like with black kids or brown kids that are heterosexual relationships or healthy heterosexual relationships, like, you have some where it's like, like, it's like, abusive or like the like, the girl, like, but I feel like these, like healthy heterosexual relationships in YA books I just do not see, and I'm wondering, like, if you have a sense for as to why? Yeah.

Jason Reynolds 10:00

Oh, because I don't think, I think that people believe that a healthy black heterosexual, ya, fantasy. I mean, why a romance? I think the assumption is they wouldn't sell. I think on one side of it, from a business model, I think people feel like a healthy Black couple is painting, is painting white paint on a white wall, right? And that and that there's and that there's nothing sort of interesting about it. Now, we know this isn't true, right, obviously, but I but I think the assumption is there has to be drama. There has to be conflict. You know, there's no real conflict in the story. No, there's no, there's and it somebody said this is a departure for most of your stories, but it's really not right. Most of my stories are about, sort of, how do we explore the interior lives of young people? That's it, right? Sometimes there are moments that are that are really complicated. Yes, that happens. But if you look at a lot of my stories, if you look at, sort of look both ways. If you look at the rest of the track series, not ghosts, but even in ghosts, the first three pages are traumatic, but the rest of the book has nothing to do with it, right, right? And most of my stories are really about like, what would it be like if we were to able to, if we were able to cut a slice out of the black pie and say, Here is just a moment. What would it be like if we were Steve McQueen making small acts, right? Making those, making those movies, right? And this was, and this was lovers rock, where we're going to have two hours of a dance party, where black people are just going to enjoy themselves, and there's not going to be any big blow up. Nothing's going to happen,

Traci Thomas 11:34

right? Well, that's kind of the central question of erasure, right? Have you read that for Everett? It's like, of course, of course, yeah, like that. I mean, I think, like, that's actually a central question, I think for a lot of black artists, just in their work, is like, How can I tell a story about blackness that isn't the kind of story about blackness, or not even about blackness, but that is centering black people, that isn't the kind of story that white people want or like, which is,

Jason Reynolds 12:04

which is, which is a complicated thing, because so much of what white people want we have ingested and have learned, or at least believe that it is what we want, right, right? And so and so now the white gaze becomes something that is a lot more it's a lot more ethereal than I think we give credit to, right? And because of that, and because of that, becomes a lot more insidious. So, so a prime example would be people saying, like, yo. So like, he really is sweet, and like, he's not, like, super sexy, he's not all over her, he's not this, that, and the third, and it's like, yeah, because black boys get to be late bloomers, right? Why does that seem so strange to so many people that a 17 year old might be inexperienced, right, right? But only in the black world. Nobody cares if a white boy is inexperienced at 17, right,

Traci Thomas 12:55

right, right, right. How sweet? How much were you thinking about that as you're crafting the characters, like, are you is, does this character come to you and you're like, Oh, this is just like, this sweet boy. Or are you thinking like, I want to push back against this stuff as I'm writing this character or writing a story,

Jason Reynolds 13:13

uh, both, little bit of both, you know, I mean, I think just inherently, I'm always trying to push back. I'm always trying to, I'm always trying to, sort of, you know, be subversive in subtle ways, right? Where it's like, Look The truth is, is that a black boy gets to be a late bloomer, a black, this particular black boy, it's the same thing I did in like, you look at All American Boys making the choice to make sure that he's not the basketball player, he's not right? He's just a regular kid on ROTC who wants to be an artist, right? Because those kids exist, right? And so it's really about sort of scanning the black landscape, or the landscape of all young people, and saying, like, what do I get to pluck out and say, like, let's explore what this kid might be like, the kid who loves manga, the kid who loves the anime, the kid who wants to put on a costume and go to a con, but also loves listening to, like, super hardcore 90s hip hop, the kid who Right? Like, because those kids are all over the place, right, right, right, right. So, so, so what? So it's really about, like, what makes sense to me and feels right for me, for the story I want to tell, what would sort of, what would sort of invigorate me in the telling of a story, while also being subversive about the images in which we see, the limited images in which we see black children, let alone black boys, to be I've

Traci Thomas 14:25

always wanted to ask you about this, and it's just ever come up, but I think now's a good time. I know we have talked about audience, you and I many times about that you write for children. You write for young black children, right? And you and you put these stories into the world. But I also know that you're an extremely smart, thoughtful human who is very aware of your work and how it enters the world. So I know that you know that plenty of white women, adults and teachers and administrators and parents are reading your work. How much are you thinking about them in your writing, knowing that oftentimes they are the gatekeepers who. For the books getting to your target audience, right? That, like not every kid can go to the store and just buy a book like that. They have to get it through their school library. So how much is that sort of secondary, but very, you know, large part of your audience in your mind as you're writing stories,

Jason Reynolds 15:17

none, none. I don't think about it. No, no, no, no, no, I don't think about them. You know, I have a theory. I have a have this theory that the biggest misconception about being a black artist is that you have to sway toward the white the white audience. Yeah, and the reason why, and the reason why is because white people have never had a problem with engaging with whatever they want to engage with, specifically as it pertains to things outside of themselves. Why people have always loved black art? There's no reason for you to go and chase them. They've been chasing you forever. All you have to do is do your thing and do it well, and they will show up. It's no different than if I was years ago, me and my buddy was like, we'll open a coffee shop in the neighborhood, and we'll make sure people know it's black owned. And my buddy was like, but if it's black owned, like, what? How like, what if like, it limits our it limits our demographic of people who go and buy coffee. No, it won't right, because White, because white folk go where they want to go, right. It's black folk who feel a little more trepidation with walking into an establishment that they feel like they're unwanted in, but white folk go wherever they want to go, right. And so that's the way so, so like, when it comes to me writing the books, I'm not thinking about them, not because I'm not I'm not grateful that they are buying and reading and passing these books to their kids. It's not that at all. It's that they're not my target, and I know they're going to come right? I know that they're already baked in, because they don't have the fear and trepidation because they are teaching our kids and looking after these young folk, because they are librarians, because they are trying to some of them are trying to connect, right? So, like, I Nah, it's not a concern,

Traci Thomas 16:54

right? I didn't mean it as a concern, but just more of like, is it in your head at all? And as you create? But no, nah. Okay. I This is, I think this is a good segue, because this so you and I are recording for people who are listening. We're recording two days after the election, which is like a crazy time to record anything I feel like, and I maybe only would ever do this with you. So thank you for agreeing. But I also knew this episode was going to go up after the election, and I sort of didn't want the first episode after the election to act election to act like we had no idea what happened, and like we recorded this six months ago, because that's a crazy feeling when you're listening to a thing. But one of the things I've been thinking a lot about before, in the lead up to and now, certainly afterwards, is men and boys. I think a friend of the show, Sarah Hildreth, she's got an Instagram called fiction matters and a sub stack, and she wrote this great piece. She was a former English teacher about boy books and girl books, and how in school there is this push to teach certain books to all kids, but when other books that maybe center a female protagonist or are about like women things, for example, she uses Jane Austen and she uses like beloved as an example. There's this pushback, like, oh, well, boys won't be able to relate to these books. And it's a little bit of what you were just talking about, about, like, white folks go wherever they want. They'll take whatever they'll engage with, whatever art they want, go to whatever coffee shop they want. And I'm wondering if, if this, like catering to boys, is part of our problem right now, that, like young boys and adult boys, who are also known as men, cannot empathize and relate and read into the experiences of other people, because we've never asked them to do that work.

Jason Reynolds 18:45

That's a very, very good point. And I would agree, and also I would say that there is a danger in catering. There is no danger in connecting. So to cater right? Argues that we're placating boys, yeah. And what I'm trying to do, what I've been trying to do for so long, is to connect with them so that I can bring them along into the conversations about all the other things that we need them to know, to be whole human beings in the world, and to engage with the stories of women and girls and and queer folk and everyone else in this world. But I think that, I think, I think that by the time they get to the age in which we start having these conversations, they've already been socialized a particular way we we act as though they just become right. But the truth of the matter is this begins very, very, very, very young, right when it comes to what a boy can play with, when it comes to sort of how a boy can can feel or not feel right, boys are told to get up and not to cry. Boys are told to brush it off and walk it off. Boys are told to be tough. Boys are told to do right. We learn even, even those of us who were raised, I'm from, I'm from a. Know, you know, got southern parents right. Were raised to be to be chivalrous at like five, right? Right? At like five. And some might argue that, like, Oh yeah, it's gentlemanly. But others might argue that, like, immediately you infantilize women, right? You've been taught to infantilize women, right? And from from a subconscious level, and so, I think by the time they get to me, I'm trying to connect for some undoing. I'm trying to connect so that I can soften the palette and say, Hey, there's actually a big world out here that you actually will not survive in, not in a healthy way, if you can't understand how to be more whole and broaden your sort of view about what is important in this world, and who, who else is important in this world? But I, but I agree that the boy book, girl book thing, the the who can play what sport and right? It's everywhere,

Traci Thomas 20:53

right? How do you make sure you're connecting and not catering? How do you approach it in that way?

Jason Reynolds 20:59

Well, I think that the for me, the key to connection is, I always say this is humility, intimacy and gratitude, and what that means, in the context of a book, is stepping into the space knowing that I don't know everything, and therefore sort of doing the extra work to write a kid who was put, who's put in spaces to be made humble, or to be humble, or to exercise a level of humility. And I mean humble in a very particular context here. I know we have all these sort of these days people are like, humility is not a thing. It's not a good thing. And what I mean is, I think that there, when I when I'm saying humility, I mean openness, right? I mean openness. And I think once, once we they can see themselves, because that's the other thing, right? All I'm trying to do is tell their secrets back to them, and once you and one, and once they know that you know, then there's no reason to keep up the mask, right? That's the other thing that we forget, is that you got all these boys living in like, in high school or in middle school, who are pretending, it's all posturing, right? And so what happens if somebody says, you know, I know you got on a mask, right? Right? It's like, it's like Tyler. It's like Tyler, the creator's new rollout, right, where he's wearing a mask of himself, a mask of his own face, right? Right? That's, that's literally what it is for so many of these young men. It's not that they're tough guys, it's not that they're look, they like this. It's like, it's like, chauvinistic seedlings. It's like, but there's still time. There's still time to like prune, there's still time to change the course of a particular pollination, right? We have time, but that would require us to sort of let them know that we know that, like, I can see you, I know you a cupcake. It's the same thing. Traci, I always talk about this. It's like every, everybody in a heterosexual relationship knows that their man loves to be the little spoon, right? But nobody outside of that relationship would know that, right, right? And the reason why is because they all wear masks. We all, we all sort of walk around grabbing ourselves and sort of like posturing and all this nonsense Dick swinging that does not help us. At least as a matter of fact, I'd even go as far as to say, and I don't know if we've had this conversation yet, I know me and Darnell have talked about this. I'd even go as far as to say that I want in my books and in my life, to dismantle masculinity on the whole, even if only for me, right, to completely take it apart. And people are always like, but you don't feel like you need any of it. No one can tell me what part of it has actually served my life, right? They're like, what about the protective aspect? Protection is inherent in human beings. It's a part of our sympathetic nervous systems. You protect them boys just as fast as Mr. Stacks would, right? Of

Traci Thomas 23:47

course, of course, of course. And it's so interesting, because I feel like protectiveness is a thing that's associated with women because of maternal whatever instincts. As you were talking I was like, hmm, what part of masculinity and I thought of protection. And then, of course, as soon as soon as you said that, I'm like, right, but I'm the most protective person I know. Like, of course, I'm right. But also that masculinity and femininity are not isolated to male or female bodies, right? Like, the idea of masculinity is just like a categorization. But like that, I, as a per as a cis woman, have a lot of masculine features, and if we consider protection to be one like that, I could have that even though I would argue like you're saying that it's maternal. I mean, I think none of it really serves any of us.

Jason Reynolds 24:31

I don't think any of it actually exists, right? And so I think, I think these are things that we sort of subscribe to, right? Because even the traits of you that you claim to be masculine are probably things that are probably good, things that are strong, and it's that, but there's nothing to do with masculinity. I can't like, like, I can't do nothing about my maleness, right? My maleness, right? My body is a real thing in the world. It's a tangible, concrete thing, my my mass and matter. I can't do anything about my physical strength. That is. Is, you see what I'm saying, all of those things, but that's male but that's maleness. Masculinity is nonsense that no one can Can, can convince me. Is helpful. And if femininity, if we were to argue, if we were to argue, sort of a bifurcated, sort of like, well, if this, then that right? And somebody says, Well, what about somebody? People say to me all the time, what about femininity? Is that? What about femininity? Is that real? And my answer is always the same. I don't know what if it is, but if it is, it hasn't harmed me,

Traci Thomas 25:29

right? But it also can't be real. If masculinity is not real, femininity can't be real. Masculinity exists because femininity exists, right? It's the same as race, right? Like, I mean, I think what's really interesting, like, now my brain's really churning. Jason, um, I think what I'm thinking about right now is like, as you're saying this, like, masculinity doesn't exist. I'm thinking, of course, about race, a thing that we, you know, know doesn't doesn't exist in in the world. We know that race exists as a construct, so it is impactful, but we know that it doesn't actually exist, like genetically, or whatever the fuck. But I'm thinking about like Trump, and I'm thinking about all the ways that he successfully, like has ignited people or terrorized people around these things that don't exist, right? Like his whole thing is he's like the boogeyman of of of identity politics, but the parts that don't really exist, right? Like, he's not like, he's like his whole shit is like racism, but like, that's not even real, like, we've allowed this person to haunt and incite or excite people around things that that aren't even real, and that's really scary to me. I

Jason Reynolds 26:49

mean, he's a, I mean, as far as I'm concerned, he's a, he's a master Imagineer, yes, right? But, but that's and that's frightening, but that's what the best storytellers are right, of course, right? He's a, right, he's a he's a master Imagineer. He understands that the key is narrative and imagination, right? The key is to tap into an is to create narrative and to tap into the the imagination of fearful people, people who are struggling, people so much so that they can't see that he's actually nothing like them, that he has a completely different story. You know, who you know, I was always laugh, and this is the polar opposite of Donald Trump, obviously. But I think about Bruce Springsteen all the time when I think about this, because, and I grew up, my dad was a, was a Bruce fan. My little brother is, like, he wants to be the boss so bad, right? So, like, so I came up on all this Bruce stuff, and then when Bruce was on Broadway, he was telling his story. It was brilliant, and he was, he was telling his story. And there's a part in it where he says, You know, I was writing about all of my father's friends in the bar and working in the factories, but I've never had a job. He's never had a job. This is a person who has he's worn plaid and denim and boots and bandanas. He's one. He's he's put on the costume. He's talked the talk. His skin even looks weathered, as if he's been, as if he's been under a car, right? As if he's been like in an auto body shop for 200 years, and he's never, he's literally been in an ivory Castle since. He was like 2324 Born to Run came out. He was like 25 he's never had a job, right? But he's got an entire popular we talk about millions of people who believe that he knows what the working man's plight is and has been able to put it in the song because he's lived it, but he hasn't, but he hasn't. Now, on the other side of that, you get a guy like Donald Trump. He hasn't lived it either, but he understands the same melody, the same rhythm, the same he understands that song, right, right? And that's scary. So my question to you, right as we talk about somebody like Trump or somebody like Bruce, is, what happens, if not just me but a bunch of us figure out ways to talk, to tell a new story about what it might mean for a boy to be human first, right? Before we attach all of the the masculinity and this and that and what if he could, if he could just be himself first, right,

Traci Thomas 29:29

right? I mean, I think like to the storytelling part of it. I think Bruce Trump, you, Barack Obama, Michelle Obama, all great storytellers, and I think that is the most important part. You have to be able to tell a story. You have to be able to create a narrative. Because, as you know, here on this show, we talk a lot about abolition, because that's a journey that I'm currently on. And I think about how sometimes it's really unsatisfying. Because the answer back to you is like, well, we don't know. You have to imagine a better future. You have to come up with this possibility. And while I think I have learned to be excited by that answer, it is not a story. There is no narrative there. It is not inherently exciting or motivating, because it requires you to do the work. And what's great about a story is that someone else does the work for you, and you just get to enjoy it, right? You just get to show up, be entertained. Be, you know, excited, be inspired to believe it. You get to believe you get to believe in something. And so I guess to answer your question is like, yes, if you are telling me this story, I am excited about it, because you are a good storyteller. But how do we get, how do we get more good storytellers, and how do we get more good stories like, how it can't just be Jason Reynolds has to write all these books to save, to save boys like you'll kill you. And I don't want that to happen.

Jason Reynolds 31:04

It will, but, but so one, let me say this, as I, as I, as I search for my modesty. One, let me say this, there are and will be others. Yes,

Traci Thomas 31:16

of course, of course. I don't want to. I've talked to many people. There are many other good storytellers. I shouldn't who

Jason Reynolds 31:23

are good storytellers, but what I will say is it, it also, I hope it is not just me, because it is not already, but, but, but I don't, I also don't underestimate the value of what a person, what one single person, could do, right? So like so like, a prime example is all of us talk about Toni Morrison, all of us, all of us talk about Octavia Butler, all of us quote Lucille Clifton, right. All of us quote, right. And the truth is, I could probably pull 1010, black women writers that have literally shaped the way many of us move through the world, right? Like that's it, right? So I won't be able to perhaps change the next 100 years, but I damn sure might be able to change the next 20. I damn sure might be able to shift the generation in the same way we were shifted the first time that we read beloved or Song of Solomon or whatever it was, or the first time that, you know, we read Audrey Lord and now had new rules about how we should attack or protest or think about political systems right or or the first time somebody quoted to us, or we read, you know, Lucille Clifton, right? You know, once you won't you celebrate with me, right? We all know it, right? It's it like lives in our bodies, right? And it's a thing. I mean, look after the election you saw, the Internet was full of Toni Morrison, Toni Morrison, Toni Morrison everywhere, right? So, I think so. So for me, in the same way that we're watching Donald Trump incite an entire generation of madness, it very well could be a book or two of my catalog, a book or two of this person's catalog and this person's cataloging and a key essay, a key essay, Layman and a Darnell Moore. I mean, we have but, but it very well might be that section of people in this particular time that changes, perhaps the way men feel about themselves, specifically black men in this particular generation. And if that were to be the case, what a gift, what a responsibility, but what a gift. Yeah, and if we do it right, and if we do it right, then there will be a trail of others coming behind us, in the same way that we are coming behind a bunch of folks who laid that foundation for us to begin with. Okay,

Traci Thomas 33:50

I want to take a quick break, and then I want to come back to this. Okay, we're back. And as you're talking about, you know, sort of, I guess, the legacy right of Toni Morrison and and Lucille Clifton and COVID Butler and, you know, whoever it is, for you dear listener, I'm thinking about, I'm thinking, I'm going back to this idea of, like, what's being taught in the classroom, right? And what books are, you know, quote, unquote, Canon, whatever we can have, that conversation is boring to me, but yes, and I'm thinking about, do you Jason, because the other thing about you that I know and we've talked about is that you think about your legacy and your place in in the literary world. And we've talked about, you know, your chip on your shoulder, about being a person who writes for young people and feeling like you kind of don't get the same. I mean, you not kind of that you don't, that people don't treat young adult books or children's books the same way, though, congratulations on being a genius whatever. I mean, I already knew it, but I'm glad my cards are COVID. But do you. You think about your work in relationship to something like The Great Gatsby, or in relationship to something like Catcher in the Rye, because you are taught in classrooms, and you have made it to the place where, like it's not just like the book is in the library, but like your books are taught alongside these canonical texts? Yeah,

Jason Reynolds 35:27

sometimes, some that's a good question, because I I'm trying to be honest as honest as possible. I appreciate it, because my knee jerk reaction is, no, I don't be thinking about them white folk, right? I don't think about those books, even though I've read all those books. And some of them I love, funny enough, but um, or not funny enough, some of them are good. From which

Traci Thomas 35:47

ones do you love? Uh,

Jason Reynolds 35:50

I really, really loved Of Mice and Men. And then it's weird, right? It's like one of these books. I mean, there are even remnants of that story, of the other relationship in that story, and some of my books, my man, Lenny, you know, I don't know if it's because I grew up around somebody like Lenny, who was also named Lenny, that did it, that did it for me, or what, but that book, it resonated. I also really did love To Kill a Mockingbird, even though I know, I know it's an unpopular opinion now, but the but the thing is, is that? But the thing is, is that? And I totally get the critique, and also share in that critique, but I try, but I try to, I try to keep it in context and in the time in which it was written, me personally, I take my hat off to Harper Lee in the same way, in the same way that I take my hat off to Judy Blume when she wrote Iggy's house in 1968 1969 just after Dr King was was killed, her first novel is called Iggy's house, and no one has read it, even though I think it's the best thing she ever wrote. And it's all about white flight and about a white family, and about a white family who has a there's a daughter in a white household who goes and introduces herself to the new black family on the block who moves into Iggy's house because Iggy's moved to China, and they moved in from Detroit after the King riots. I think it's a masterwork of a book, but Judy, but Judy hates it, because she feels like she got it wrong. But for me, but for me keeping it in the context of which it was written, which was 1968 1969 it was published, I think in 70 Right, right? I have a certain kind of respect and appreciation for those books. I do. I do. And there are others. I mean, look, I didn't look. I read The Great Gatsby probably 10 times. And there are parts of that book that I find intriguing. You know, I read, what's the other one? The short one was it this out of paradise, another F Scott Fitzgerald book that I also loved when I read it years and years and years ago. I mean, look, there's a lot of I mean, I think Flannery. Flannery O'Connor was the most racist person ever. A good man is hard to find. Was a good collection.

Traci Thomas 38:24

Listen, you know, my problematic favorite book is gone with the way, exactly. This is also the point about storytelling, good storytelling. Listen, you can convince me that anything about antebellum slavery if you are giving me Scarlet O'Hara and Rhett Butler, okay,

Jason Reynolds 38:41

I hate, I hate the catcher in the ride, which, by the way, the catcher in arise. Another book that, like spawned the generation of of behavioral characteristics, right? Which is a fascinating thing to think about. That book literally created clones, right?

Traci Thomas 38:55

It created a whole type of man, a type of man. Just look at that

Jason Reynolds 38:58

book like the Bible, right? And but what I will say is, though I didn't necessarily like the story, I can't pretend like when I was in my 20s to early 20s, and I opened that book up that I wasn't intrigued by the language, by the way, by the looseness of the language, right? The way that I was like, Huh? That's an interesting thing to do. That's an interesting way. I hadn't read a book specifically by a white person that felt like that, right? I read books about black people that felt kind of colloquial and loose in that way. But there was something about the language. I was like, that's interesting. This story sucks. This kid is a I hate this kid, but also, yeah, but I do you know who else I feel that way about? I feel about Sally Rooney. I've never read it as you know, like intermezzo, I was like, I bought intermezzo. I've never read any of her work, because I know that, because everybody's like, she's like, the person everybody loves to hate for some strange reason, and I don't know what she's done or who she is, you know, I

Traci Thomas 39:52

don't you think people love to hate her. I think people love to love her. People love her. She's like, and

Jason Reynolds 39:57

that's why people love to hate her. You see your face. Right for the audience. You can't see Traci space, she rolled their eyes.

Traci Thomas 40:03

But the thing about me is also I know I know if I'm gonna like something, sure, sure, sure. And I don't like to read things that I think I'm gonna dislike, because then I have to talk about it, and then everybody thinks I'm mean. And I don't like people to think I mean. So I try to avoid reading books I don't think I'm gonna like, because I don't want everyone to think I'm a book bully because everyone's up my ass.

Jason Reynolds 40:25

I think that's fair. And I think for me, I avoided Sally Rooney because of all the hype, and then I picked up intermezzo, and I read the first couple of pages, and I really liked the writing, and I haven't finished the book, but I just really liked the writing, right? And I think for me as a writer, my reading process, and the reasons I read are very can sometimes be a little different from a casual reader. Just because I'm looking for craft, I'm looking for style, I'm looking for sort of like, what is like if I had to, sort of, if I had to, sort of turn this flat, if I had to flatten it all out and look at it as a diagram, what does the storytelling like? What's the sequencing of this story? You know, like, I'm thinking about all of those things. So, like, the story might be, that's the reason why I love Ali Smith. I don't know what Ali Smith be talking about, but I just like, I just like the language. I just like to live in the language. And so, yeah, so your point, yeah, some of them white books. The big point is, do I think of my books up against those, those, sorry, there's a long digression. I'm sorry. No, it's okay. That was fun, but it was like a nerd out time. But I wanted to say no, but I think something sometimes is the honest answer. I think sometimes, I think All American Boys has been used in classrooms as either comparative lit with Tequila Mockingbird or as a replacement to the killer Mockingbird, and all over the country, and that has been interesting. And, you know, and I think there are, I love the way people talk about Long Way Down, up against Dickens. Oh, interesting. Yeah. So I so I never think about it. But when people do it and tell me about it, then I sort of think about it. What

Traci Thomas 42:05

do you think about it?

Jason Reynolds 42:08

That it just has a place there, and there isn't like, like, there's not a there, there, by the way, like, there isn't like a right, right, but that there's a place for it. In the minds of the people who felt like the Canon was unshakable. So it's not so it so it isn't that I think like, Oh, I get to sort of finally be with F, Scott Fitzgerald. I could care less about standing next to F, Scott Fitzgerald, I'm trying to stand next to Zora Neale Hurston anyway, right? But sure. But it does matter to me that I that I can sort of rest in the mind of the person who thinks that F Scott Fitzgerald is my is a monument, and that somebody might erect my monument there, sometimes in his in his stead, right? Because those same people are teaching my children,

Traci Thomas 42:53

right? Well, because I think that's the thing that I'm so interested in, is like the Canon is not interested. Interesting to me. As far as like adults go, it is interesting to me that the canon is really built for people in their English classes as children. Yeah. So, like to me, Dickens is not in my Canon because I never was taught Dickens. I was taught F Scott Fitzgerald, so that is I was taught Harper Lee. So, like, in my mind, those are the books, because those are the books that I was told were books before I knew that I could decide what a book was right, like, before I started doing this, and I got to say, like this is my Canon right, or like that these other books are part of the canon that I didn't even know about. I was never assigned Toni Morrison in high school. I did know about Toni Morrison, but I was an AP English.

Jason Reynolds 43:49

Spoiler alert, English teachers now look at me,

Traci Thomas 43:53

but like that, that what is meaning, what is important and interesting and worthy of discussion when it comes to like canonical text is that most of that is defined for people at an age before they can define it for themselves. And so that's why I'm so interested in you becoming part of these canons, these classroom canons, because that means that you become part of adult versions of these kids canons, right? That like they say, like I wasn't taught anything contemporary that I can remember in English. We did read, like, joy, Luck Club in a lit and film class I took, and that was sort of contemporary ish, right? That that would have been in like 2004

Jason Reynolds 44:35

1990 it

Traci Thomas 44:39

was still old, but like, I can't think of reading any books in the 2000s that came out in the 2000s but I got sidetracked, but like that, you will be carried forth with these people, these students, these young people now into their future. Book podcast like into their future, bookstagrams and into their future. Whatever it is the books that they will like. I'm reading Charlotte's Web chapter by chapter right now to the minis, because that was a book I read as a kid. They're a little young for it, but they like they're liking being read aloud chapter books. It's like they're we listen to like Charlie and the Chocolate Factory on audio, and they're paying attention. And I'm like, you are. I'm like, what happened? And they're like, Oh, he didn't get the ticket. They bought another bar, and there's no ticket. And I'm like, Whoa, good job. So yeah, so that's why I'm interested to know what it's like for you, knowing that your books are being taught in these rooms where also these other things are being taught.

Jason Reynolds 45:41

It's amazing. I mean, I'm also in that part of my career where I've been around long enough for the kids who started reading my books in fifth and sixth grade to be out of college and so and so. What Happens all the time like Bailey, is I'm in the post office, and I turn around and there's some lovely woman with a camera out who says, Can I show you a picture? And she'll show me a picture of her very small children reading ghosts and as brave as you, and so forth and so on. And then she'll swipe to the right, and it'll be her grown sons holding the same books and being like they all have made it to college. They're all readers. They all this. They are that. And they still come home every summer and get their friends together for book club, and they still all just read your books, right? Like that happens? Yeah, and what does that mean? And recently, I was in the UPS. This happened three weeks ago. I was in UPS Store, and the lady came and said, Hey, can I take a picture with you to show my kids? And the lady behind the register said, Jason, you come in all the time. Why does lady taking a picture of you, right? And she's like and she said, because he's changed the way 1000s and 1000s of black boys see themselves in the world. Now my children are grown, but they move differently because they had those books when they were young. Now this is something that I think about when I'm making something. Yes, it is 100%

Traci Thomas 46:58

100% How? How are you thinking about it? How is it informing the work that you do? It

Jason Reynolds 47:02

only informs the work in turn. It doesn't pull from my entertainment elements. It doesn't pull from any of the storytelling at all. It's just about my intention. It's just about knowing that like and I'm not trying to teach them anything. It's not that. It's just making sure that these books are made with a particular kind of intention and a particular kind of love and respect for their humanity, so that they know somebody in the world knows they're here and knows that they are just people, right? Just, it's amazing how many, how many black boys don't feel like people, right? Right? They feel like this other thing. They feel like, they feel like, you know, I met a bunch of black kids who went to this wealthy private school, and they all knew that they were just there for sports. They were aware that they were the side show they were they were to be carted around when it was time to show perspective, perspective parents, that they were the diversity, that it was a diverse school. They were fully aware of those things at 1415, years old, my job is to say you are more than a basketball you're more than a rodeo, right? That's it,

Traci Thomas 48:06

right, right? Okay, this is like such a hard shift. There's a few things in the book that I want to talk about. Specifically. One is that neons mother has an extremely intense bath and shower routine, and that's your bath and shower

Jason Reynolds 48:22

I forgot that. I forgot, you know that, first of all,

I was reading the book in the bath, literally, like,

she doesn't have this, yeah, she doesn't have the mini broom, yeah?

Traci Thomas 48:36

But she showers, baths, showers, which is like, how long approximately, does that take you? The whole thing? Yeah. Shower, bath, shower, sweep comes later, dry, yeah.

Jason Reynolds 48:48

So for people who don't know what we're talking about, the sweeping people like, what does it mean by sweep? So I'm a person who has a really intense bath regimen. I really enjoy the bathtub. I take a bath every day, sometimes twice a day. And I use all of the bad salts and flowers and all kinds. I really spoil myself. I gotta love on me, you know what I mean? Okay? But, but in order to clean the bathtub, you got to let all those flowers and pieces of sandalwood, they all have to dry, and then you have to, then I sweep them up with a broom. But yes, all of this takes the shower bath. Shower takes, I don't know, 45 an hour, that's all, oh yeah, because I'm taking a quick

Traci Thomas 49:27

shower bath for like, 90 minutes. Occasion, because I turn the water so hot when I start that I can barely even get in. And I kind of, like, squat, and I'm like, reading my squatty, and then I'll like, Get up and, like, stand up, and then, like, take my legs out, because I wanted to stay hot enough for me to read. Because usually when I have to, I mean, I love taking a bath, but usually if I'm reading in the bath, it's because I am on a deadline and I cannot focus anywhere else. So I'm like, phones away, book in the bath. Bath. And I'm like, I will stay here for as long as possible. But I'm also such a slow reader that that usually gets me, like, maybe 60 pages, maybe. And so I need, I need an extended bath period. But I do not shower, bath, shower. Yeah,

Jason Reynolds 50:13

yeah. I gotta shower bash. First of all, I read in the bath suit. That's where I read as well, just so you know, that's like, my team. It's the only place I can really focus and concentrate. I have to show a bad shower just because, because I just feel gross. So, like, I had to, like, shower first, then get in the bath, clean and then, but, but I've still been sitting in myself, and I've got flowers all over me, and so I have to shower again. I

Traci Thomas 50:36

hate the flowers I can't get. I don't like all the I like an Epsom salt. I like about I like, a I'm okay with a bubble, and I like the, like, bath bombs, that. But I don't like when there's like animal,

Jason Reynolds 50:47

like produce in it. Everything has to go in. Me roses,

Speaker 1 50:52

I'm in the bath. I'm not in the wilderness. Okay? I don't need vegetation. Sometimes

Jason Reynolds 50:55

you sometimes you need to feel exotic. It feels like you're in like, some amazing Island, amen to each their own. I

Traci Thomas 51:02

love I love this for you. I love that we share the bath. But of course, differently. And then the other thing that comes up in the book is this conversation. It's very short, but of course, it got my imagination going about Denzel Washington needing to do romance movies, yeah, yeah, or rom coms, yeah.

Jason Reynolds 51:18

I mean, he really, he really. He has Mississippi masala, okay? And he has one other, yeah, and he has one other, like, just true love I can't remember what it is at the moment, but one other, like true love story, but is in Washington on I'm like, everybody love Denzel Washington. Denzel Washington. Don't love

Traci Thomas 51:38

nobody. That's true. Do you think that doing a like? Do you think that you cannot be like one of the greats without doing it like? Do you think that that's part of, yeah, it's got to be part of be top tier.

Jason Reynolds 51:53

No, because then, first of all, Denzel is, is, come on, like, I can't be like Denzel Washington. I'm never going to disrespect Denzel Washington. That being said, that being said, there is something in a really good love story, specifically in a movie, there is something about the subtlety of acting, yeah, that requires such a such a deft hand that I know he's capable of, probably better than most that I would love. I just would have loved to have seen him in that space. Like, yeah, what does Denzel Washington look like courting a woman,

Traci Thomas 52:31

right? But

Jason Reynolds 52:32

like in a way that feels true and like feels honest, but also feels, what does he look like in a quiet film period,

Traci Thomas 52:41

right? Well, I think you know, this is sort of to our bigger conversation about, like masculinity and black boys, but also masculinity, masculinity broadly is he came up as an actor in a time where you were either like a serious actor or you were like a love story actor, right? Like Al Pacino, you know, Scent of a Woman is as close as we get, like Robert De Niro, like they're not doing those kinds of movies because, like, that's not what serious men do. And Denzel sort of comes up after that, before there's this transition to like the Matthew McConaughey, where you can be like a serious actor, but also you can do How to Lose a Guy in 10 days, right? Like that. We've had a cultural transition and what is possible for men to do, and Denzel sort of the end of that era, because Will Smith comes up, you know, in that next generation, and he does love stories, and like he does hitch, and he's more of a comedic actor, and he's sort of pushing up back against that, trying to become a serious actor. But there is a shift culturally and like what a real actor does versus what, like casual actors do,

Jason Reynolds 53:46

I don't disagree. What about Tom Hanks? He's done everything. What about Tom Hanks and everything? He's done everything, but

Traci Thomas 53:52

he is the anomaly, right? Don't you think maybe,

Jason Reynolds 53:55

but I bet if I thought there's probably a few more than, though, like

Traci Thomas 54:00

Richard Gere, maybe Richard Gere, Richard beer, I don't think of him as being, he

Jason Reynolds 54:06

was never, he was never a movie Yeah, he was never like that kind of movie star, uh, Did Brad? Ever did Brad and Tom, I mean, Clooneys done it, Clooneys done it. Clooney. Clooney has done it. He he's done oceans, 11 and all of those films. Then he's done the one where he those are love stories, no? But then he's done like the one where he's the flight attendant, oh,

Traci Thomas 54:27

the he's not the flight attendant, he's the frequent flyer. Yeah,

Jason Reynolds 54:31

the frequent flyer, yeah. I

Traci Thomas 54:33

feel like Denzel hasn't been zeal, done movies like that. No, I'm trying to think of him in like any smaller I guess he never does. He doesn't

Jason Reynolds 54:43

do quiet films. Neither does Sam. I mean, yeah, I would love to see Sam Jackson try his best to basically be in a quiet film where he is trying to love someone. That's it, yes,

Traci Thomas 54:57

like, what was that movie with um Alex? Like Baldwin and Meryl Streep, something's got to give. We need we need black. Something's got to give. This is

Jason Reynolds 55:08

my argument that we never get those movies. We don't get the notebook. We don't get, I mean, and I could argue, we could argue the photograph was sort of in that space, right? That's Easter, that's Easter's joint. So, like, but, but but like, we don't really get and everybody I know people gonna listen be like, What about loving basketball and love Jones? I feel like those movies, though they were very important to us, and I'm never gonna I never like they were very important to us. They still required the trope of, like, something real bad has to happen. There has to be this moment of like, Travis, right? And then we'll, then we'll find our way back to each other, right? But there's never just a story where it's like, yeah, this is an exploration of love. That's it. What

Traci Thomas 55:48

about like, the best man?

Jason Reynolds 55:50

He cheated he I know I

Traci Thomas 55:53

don't remember these movies well, because I just remembered, like, the happy ending kind of thing, and then I loved them. He slept

Jason Reynolds 55:58

with his man's girl. Like,

Traci Thomas 56:01

that's true.

Jason Reynolds 56:03

It's always less. He

Traci Thomas 56:05

wasn't the best man. Maybe he was an okay guy,

Jason Reynolds 56:10

right? But we never get like, a film that feels like, I mean, like, where is our, even, even just, you can even think about titles like, where's our When Harry Met Sally?

Traci Thomas 56:23

Sure, sure. Like, where I hate that movie? Fair now that I hate that movie fair,

Jason Reynolds 56:28

but fair, but where is that film? Like to think that we don't, first of all, to think that we don't have, I don't know I have same with like Annie John, you know, I know we can't talk about old boy anymore. What's his name? Woody, Woody Allen. But, oh, yeah. But same with like, Annie John, which I love. The first time I saw because I think Annie Hall, Annie Hall, Annie Hall. I think Annie John is what? Oh, that's Gwendolyn Brooks. I was like, What is Annie John? Annie Hall, where, what's her name? Who wear the suit jackets?

Traci Thomas 56:59

Meg, Ryan, Diane Keaton Oh, my God, I love her. That's

Jason Reynolds 57:03

what I'm saying. And I know we have Diane Keatons in the black communities. Okay, so

Traci Thomas 57:07

do you want to hear a funny story about this when I was an actor? So one of the things you have to do when you go to acting school is, like, you have to learn how to be an actor, which I was terrible at. But you also have to learn how to sell yourself as an actor. And I always you have to give like, comps, like how you doing books, like, when you go to an audition or whatever, you know you are, like a casting director, you might tell them, like, I want to have this career. Like, this is where I see myself. And I always use Diane Keaton because I think that I am Diane Keaton esque. But I would always get pushback from my teachers, being like, well, you need to have, like, a black comp too, but I'm like, but I might just be the black I just that is me, like, I'm not sexy, but I'm like, quirky, and I'm funny, and I'm like, you know, I'm a little goofy, but also, like, smart and, like, whatever, all of these things that I feel like are So Diane Keaton and my body is weird, like her, like, all of those things, but we don't have a diet black thing. This is what I quit the industry so you'll never see

Jason Reynolds 58:00

like, what is the love what is like is, is when it is IO or debris turn for love story. Will the will the other person across from her be a black man? Right? And if not, then my question is, why not? Why can't? Why can't a woman like Iowa debris, who is quirky? She could be our black Diane. Yeah, she's quirky. She's, I actually find her to be hot, you know, I mean, like, she's got an interesting, she's got, it's like a thing there, and what, and why can't she be across the table from some, some black man who, and it's just a beautiful love story about their their thing,

Traci Thomas 58:37

right? Write it, I might. But

Jason Reynolds 58:40

then the Hollywood was gonna say, okay, but at some point somebody's gotta get shot, right?

Traci Thomas 58:47

Comes in and cheats on.

Jason Reynolds 58:48

Somebody gotta get shot in this movie.

Traci Thomas 58:52

Right, right, right, right. Um, okay, we're still, of course, out of time. You've done this so many times. I don't have to ask you about snacks, unless you have a new snack that

Jason Reynolds 58:59

you eat. No, you know, I

Traci Thomas 59:01

know snacks. I know such bullshit. You're the only person who think gets away with that answer. Now someone's like, I don't need snacks. I'm like, think harder, dig a little deeper. No waste of my time when it comes to snacks. Just like, such a waste. It's so embarrassing for you, because you're basically perfect. And then there's just this one part of you that is such a failure to me.

Jason Reynolds 59:22

I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. I told you my theory I love snacks. That's why I don't have them.

Traci Thomas 59:30

Okay, just because we need some joy in our life. If you were to go on a just Jason does snacks, yeah, like, you like, not because I know you're not going to, but if you were gonna give into your basis, snack feelings, yeah, what would you eat? What would be the perfect snack lineup for you? Barbecue

Jason Reynolds 59:51

potato chips. What brand any doesn't it doesn't even matter. I just love whatever that flavor is. Is, I love it. I love it regular and mesquite and honey. And honey, regular, Mesquite, okay, sweet, sweetish fish. I love Swedish.

Speaker 2 1:00:16

I just have my Swedish fish here, and then I also have a clean bag here without it. See,

Jason Reynolds 1:00:24

we're actually more alike than you even think. Well,

Traci Thomas 1:00:27

this is my problem, though, is that I don't deprive myself of my greatest joy in life, which is a Swedish Fish. Literally, on election night, Mr. Sax came home with a box of candies, all my favorites, and I couldn't even eat them because I was so depressed. I've

Jason Reynolds 1:00:44

also, I also, I also really like cakes and donuts. Birthday cake is the greatest thing ever invented, as far as and wedding

Traci Thomas 1:00:51

cake, like a store bought like a Safeway cake. Yeah, the

Jason Reynolds 1:00:55

absolute best. I love ice cream, every kind of ice cream I've had my nights at Jenny's, where I have Jenny's deliver all kind of crazy stuff over here. You know, I like, solid, okay,

Traci Thomas 1:01:06

if you, if you give in and you, like, have your night at Jenny's the next day. Are you one of those people that, like, throws it all away, or do you just, like, can you have it

Jason Reynolds 1:01:14

doesn't make it through the night? It doesn't make it through I eat the pint in a single sitting. Okay? It's like, what I'm saying, yeah? Like, I can't, I can't regulate very well. So and those you know, Trader Joe's makes those peanut butter pretzel bites.

Traci Thomas 1:01:27

Whoa, oh, yeah, yeah, I get those from Costco.

Jason Reynolds 1:01:34

First of all, shout out to you. Being a Costco Mom, that's wild, of course,

Speaker 2 1:01:37

okay, but I was also a Costco mom before I ever had kids. Costco is one of my favorite places, because

Jason Reynolds 1:01:42

you love gallon of mayonnaise, you need a gallon of kitchen.

Traci Thomas 1:01:46

Because I'm, I am, like, one of those people that loves to, like, organize things. So it's like, I need all these things so that I can then open it and then, like, put it in a smaller container. And once we redid the garage, half of the garage is like, all my books, like my office. Then the other part that you never see on Instagram is the cabinets, which are full of Costco related products and, like, Christmas decorations. It's

Jason Reynolds 1:02:07

ridiculous. Yeah, it's

Traci Thomas 1:02:09

very it's very intense. But as I am a Costco mom, I

go, we buy, like, the steaks, I individually wrap them, put them, because we now have a bonus freezer, because I'm, like, one of those

Jason Reynolds 1:02:16

people. You're really one of those people with a deep freezer. That's

Traci Thomas 1:02:19

amazing. I'm a bonus freezer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That, to me, is really a sign of, like, becoming a mom was, like, the bonus freezer. You're

Jason Reynolds 1:02:28

ridiculous, but I'm so happy for you

living the dream. Okay,

Traci Thomas 1:02:34

at least if I, oh, I guess I just have, I have two more questions, really. One is for people who, like, 24 seconds from now? Are there other things you would recommend to them that are in the same vein? No,

Jason Reynolds 1:02:48

great. Okay,

Traci Thomas 1:02:51

I'll let you off the hook with that one too. But the last one is, if you could require one person dead or alive to read the book, who would you want it to be?

Jason Reynolds 1:02:57

Oh, my father. I think, I think my father would read this book and be so proud because he was, because he was such an evolved man in so many in so many ways. He was so thoughtful, he was so affectionate, he was so honest about his about his fears and shortcomings. He was so confident in the things he was confident in, he made space for people. He loved his wife. He loved my mother, his ex wife as well. I think my father would read this book. I think he would have laughed because he right. He would recognize some of my own antics as a child. I think he would laugh. I think he would laugh, and I also think he would feel like he did all right, yeah, I love that. Yeah, that's

Traci Thomas 1:03:45

so good. Um, okay, everybody, you can get 24 seconds from now out in the world, wherever you get your books. Jason, thank you, as always, for coming here and talking to me, and thank you for writing the books, and also thanks for letting me just trash your snack takes at any anytime I want, brings me joy,

Jason Reynolds 1:04:02

anytime, buddy and I'm glad we got to do this, even though it comes after a tough time. At least. At least we got each other. It was nice to kind of laugh and joke with you about in this moment. At least.

Traci Thomas 1:04:13

Yeah, I agree. And everyone else we will see you in the stacks.

All right, y'all that does it for us today. Thank you again. So much to Jason Reynolds for joining the show and a huge thank you to Lisa more later for helping to make this conversation possible. Don't forget this next book club pick for November is luster by Raven Leilani, and we will be discussing that book on Wednesday, November 27 with Justine Kay.If you love this podcast and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/thestacks and join the stacks pack and check out my substack at tracithomas.substack.com. make sure you're subscribed to the stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, be sure to leave us a rating and a review for more from the stacks. Follow us on social media@thestackspod on Instagram, threads and Tiktok, and @thestackspod_ on Twitter, and you can check out our website at thestackspodcast.com.this episode of the stats was edited by Christian Dueñas, with production assistance from Megan Caballero. Our graphic designer is Robin McCreight, and our theme music is from Tagirijus. The Stacks is created and produced by me Traci Thomas.

]]>Ep. 345 The Fear of Vulnerability with Jason ReynoldsEp. 344 Unstable Attachment to Realism with Justine KayStacks AssistantWed, 06 Nov 2024 08:00:00 +0000https://www.thestackspodcast.com/2024/11/06/ep-344-justine-kay65d2b7a49de6215855aa3aaa:66084694f1e135566828a41a:67281efac594e327f8589b4d

This week, we’re joined by Justine Kay, one of the hosts of the reality TV show podcast, 2 Black Girls, 1 Rose. We talk about our thoughts and feelings around optimism in the face of political anxieties and how reading has shaped our thinking about what is possible. We also dive into Justine’s newfound love of romance novels and revisit some of our favorite reality TV memories.

The Stacks Book Club pick for November is Luster by Raven Leilani. We will discuss the book on November 27th with Justine Kay returning as our guest.

LISTEN NOW

Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Google Podcasts | Overcast | Stitcher | Transcript

  

Everything we talk about on today’s episode can be found below in the show notes and on Bookshop.org and Amazon.

To support The Stacks and find out more from this week’s sponsors, click here.

Connect with Justine: Instagram | Twitter | Website
Connect with The Stacks: Instagram | Twitter | Shop | Patreon | Goodreads | Substack | Subscribe

To contribute to The Stacks, join The Stacks Pack, and get exclusive perks, check out our Patreon page. If you prefer to support the show with a one time contribution go to paypal.me/thestackspod.

The Stacks participates in affiliate programs. We receive a small commission when products are purchased through links on this website.

TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Traci Thomas 0:09

Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Traci Thomas, and today I am thrilled to welcome Justine Kay to the show. Justine is my pal, but more than that, she is the co host of the very popular podcast two black girls, one rose, where she and her co host Natasha, share hilarious and unfiltered takes on reality TV culture and relationships. I invited Justine on today, not only because she is brilliant, but because I wanted to talk to the right person the day after the 2024 election. Justine and I talk a little bit about our state of mind going into the election, the power and possibility of optimism. And we also, of course, talk about the chaos of reality TV and some of the books that Justine loves. In case you missed the announcement, our book club pick for November is luster by Raven Leilani Justine will be back on Wednesday, November 27 to discuss the book with me, so be sure to read along and tune in. Quick reminder, everything we talk about on each episode of the stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. If you love this podcast and you want inside access to it, head over to patreon.com/the stacks and join the stacks. Pack for just $5 a month. You get to be part of the best bookish community. You get to be on our Discord. You get to come to our monthly virtual book club meetups. You get a bonus episode every month, and you get to know that by joining, you make it possible for me to make this show every single week. Also, as we come to the end of the year, we have some really exciting Patreon exclusive things like our mega challenge and stacky awards that are both coming your way. Another fun perk of the stacks pack is that you get a shout out on this very show. So shout out to our newest members, Sonia, Chrissy, Theresa, Debbie, Mitchell and Sarah. Thank you all so much. And for those of you who love the show, still want to support it, but maybe don't want to be part of a bookish community and have to go to virtual book to go to virtual book club meetups. I've got something for you. It's my newsletter. It's called unstacked, and you can find it at Traci thomas.substack.com it'll keep you up to date on what I've got going on my hot takes on books and pop culture, and it goes directly to your inbox. So subscribe to that by going to Traci thomas.substack.com All right, now it is time for my conversation with Justine Kay.

All right, everybody, welcome to the stacks. It is the day after the 2024 election, and we have no idea what's going on, because we're recording this on october 28 Monday, October 28 I brought to you a guest that I wanted to talk to on the day after the election. Because I wanted to bring someone that I felt like, no matter what happened last night or maybe is still happening right now, we can have a good time we can. We can just vibe out and maybe for the next hour, not feel the stress and anxiety of whatever the fuck is going on in this moment. So I brought you one of my favorite podcasters, one of my favorite people, just in general, my friend, one of the CO hosts of the two black girls, one rose podcast, the incomparable Justine. Kay. Justine, welcome to the sax.

Justine Kay 3:26

Oh my god, thanks, Traci. I'm so happy to be here. You guys talk about smart things over here.

Yeah, no, I'm excited.

Traci Thomas 3:33

No, we talk about the same dumb shit as everybody else. We just pretend we're smart because it's books. It's like you talk about reality TV. So it's hard. You have to, like people, like, assume it's like, low low brow. Low brow. I feel like you guys are pretty high brow for reality TV. Oh, thanks.

Justine Kay 3:49

We try, we try, but we also try to have, like, a lot of fun, because how could you not? Because

Traci Thomas 3:54

it's reality TV. I mean, I feel like we try to have a lot of fun here with books. And I can tell you that a lot of people cannot have fun around books. Yeah, yeah. I feel like I'm trying to be as lowbrow as humanly possible in the book space. Okay? For So, before we dive in, for people who don't know you, can you give them just like a little, a little backstory. Where are you from? How did you get to where you are currently? Yeah, give us a little Sure.

Justine Kay 4:22

So I yeah, I'm Justine. I am the co host of two black girls, one rose. I co host it with my best friend Natasha. We have been doing it for coming up on seven years this December, and we started the podcast because we watched Rachel Lindsay season of The Bachelorette, and we just didn't hear any of the other podcasters watching the shame the same show we were watching. It was really wild to listen to these white people recap podcasts and nothing happened. They just picked up on no signs and none of the nuances that we picked up on either. And then also, it didn't really sound like. Many of them were like friends. They really all gave co worker and but pretending to be friends, right? In which a lot of duos have that same energy, but we don't have that. We are actually friends. You guys went to high school together. You did went to high school together. We've known each other. We're coming up on now 20 years. And I was just telling her this weekend when I saw her, she is my life partner in a way that's so unique. Not a whole lot of people get a life partner like this. So it's exciting, it's nice, it's really nice. I'm

Traci Thomas 5:33

so jealous of you guys. I do this by myself. You guys, I mean, there's definitely parts about being a solo podcaster that I love, and I think work to my strengths as a control freak and, okay, terrible delegator. But sometimes, like, I just want to bounce an idea off of someone who's as invested in the thing as I am. Yeah, you know, like I come to you with things sometimes, like, Justine, what do you think of this? But and like, You are great, a great friend, and you help. But also, like, it's not the same. This is a war

Justine Kay 6:05

thing, right, right, right, yeah,

Traci Thomas 6:09

okay, let's talk to our future selves. Oh, okay. So today is Monday, October 28 it is like, eight days until the election, nine days till everyone is going to be hearing us talk right now. Yeah, yeah. What do we think? What are you feeling?

Justine Kay 6:25

Oh, my God. I am trying so hard to not think about it, because I don't want to be pessimistic, right? Okay, I also am fully expecting an insurrection

Traci Thomas 6:40

either way, either way, no matter what.

Justine Kay 6:42

Yeah, yeah. So it doesn't feel like this day, the November 6 day, is nearly as final as it usually has been my whole life growing up with elections.

Traci Thomas 6:55

Yeah, that's true. That's true, right?

Justine Kay 6:58

I am like,

Traci Thomas 6:59

I just, I can't stop thinking about everyone listening to this episode first thing, or at some point, you know, in the first few days, I just, it's been on this episode has been heavy on my mind. I want to say since August, since I realized when I was, like, booking the show, I was like, Oh, shit. This is gonna because, you know, my episodes drop at midnight, um, California time, so it's like, we're not gonna know. Oh, most people, like, we probably won't know. Yeah. I mean, I hope we know. I hope everyone listening to this, we're having celebratory mimosas at midnight or whatever, right? Like, I hope, I guess, not mimosas at midnight. But when you'd wake up in the morning and listen episode, I hope that you are episode, I hope that you are toasting to something wonderful. But I just am so. So anybody who's like, at home right now listening to this, who's like, feeling anxious, I'm, I'm preemptively anxious for us, yeah, but also, like, I wouldn't knock doors this weekend with my kids, all with your kids, yeah, I'm a, I'm an avid door knocker. I am a phone caller and a door knocker. It eases the anxiety for me. It does. It does, okay. It really does. Yeah. I mean, you get to talk to people. You get to meet people and be like, yeah. I mean, and like, at this late stage in the game, you're only talking to people who support, who you support. So it's real easy, but I, too, have fears of violence. Okay, let me ask you a little bit about optimism, because one of the things I've noticed in the last eight years, I guess, since 2016 since people were surprised by Hillary's loss in 2016 is this urge to preemptively be pessimistic, like, well, she's gonna lose or and in in this preemptive pessimism, it's sort of like I am saying that the bad thing is gonna happen, so that I'm not surprised. And then you live your whole life like feeling like, Well, I wasn't surprised, but you're like, living in a downer for everything. And I just feel like I just want to be optimistic. It's gonna hurt just as bad whether I'm right or I'm wrong. I would rather be wrong and, like, have a nice time believing in something good, being possible, then that like I was right, I I was right. I knew it's gonna happen, and so I'm not gonna, like, believe that anything else is possible. I don't know. Have you? Have you been thinking about this at all so

Justine Kay 9:30

so deeply, you actually touched on something that my therapist and I have been going really deeply into, which is my pessimistic side and my very, very like unstable attachment to realism. I have this attachment to realism, not in the ego way of saying that I was right, but in the way of I won't let myself down. Yes, and I'm doing this because I'm planning a wedding and I have a. Really hard time being celebrated, and it's getting it's it's just it's getting hard for me every single step of the way. And a lot of really great things are happening for me and Natasha right now, she just bought a house. I'm getting married, so we just have a lot of great stuff. We had a great live show recently, and I still am like waiting for this other shoe to drop in a way that I can protect myself,

Traci Thomas 10:26

do you? Can you not enjoy the good things while they're happening to you? I

Justine Kay 10:29

have a really hard time with it, really thinking that I deserve it. I have a really hard time with

Traci Thomas 10:34

that. Oh yes, I think I deserve nothing that that I can really feel, I don't see, I don't consider myself an optimist, really at all, but I think that I am more optimistic than I think that I am. I think so too. I just really enjoy enjoying things. I like to feel good, and so I'm gonna, like, lean into any opportunity to, like, have a nice time. Yeah, I mean, so I'll say this in 2016 and everyone's going to be like, everybody says this. I really did know that Donald Trump was going to win. I was the only person I think that it was like me and like Donald Trump, we were the two people who knew, because, like, I called my brother that day, and I was like, you know Brady. And he was like, Traci, you're being ridiculous. And I was like, ah, and like, I knew, and it still fucking sucked big donkey dick, okay? Like it didn't protect protect me in any way, shape or form, from the pain and the suffering of the revelation that I was right. I did not. Usually, when I'm right, it feels great. I love, I love, and I told you so moment, this one did not. And so this time around, well, I'm not sure what will happen, and I don't think it's useful to prognosticate at this point, since everyone will know more than we know at this time, I'm just leaning into it. I mean, we got a black girl running for office, and not only a black girl, but in my case, she's mixed. She's from where I'm from, you know, I mean, I don't agree with her on a lot of stuff, but, like, she's out here, she's looking good every day. The

Justine Kay 12:13

face is beat the glam team. I want the interview. So team,

Traci Thomas 12:19

I want the hookup I need. I need some eyeliner. Sometimes I need a nice glittery eye, bright, bright, lifted, yeah, she

Justine Kay 12:29

always does look. She

Traci Thomas 12:30

looks great. The monochromatic suits she is, you know, we talk about representation matters. If this is mattering to me, yeah,

Justine Kay 12:38

I agree with you. I think the one question I would have for her, if I got a chance to sit down with her, is her access to her eternal joy and optimism, because I've seen this race of black girl running against mid to low white man, low level white, low level white, and the white is Usually just comes out. I thought, just because he's relatable, you know, just because he's like, life better, you know, like, I've seen that race so many times, and if I've seen it so many times, I can't imagine how many times she's seen it, yeah, and she still is like, No, I'm gonna win. Yeah, here's beyond. You're welcome. Like, she's

Traci Thomas 13:18

maybe because she has won, right, she has won her political races. She is the fucking vice president. Like, I always die when people like, she's not qualified. I'm like, bitch. What is qualified, if not the person who has a literal job as next in line? Like, what other qualifications are there for president, besides having been President, I don't know. Vice President, like, what, like, what is a qualification at this point? But maybe because she has one, I don't know. I think, like, we're both black women, we both have had to compete against the most mid, low level white ever. And like, there is joy for me in the competition. There is joy for me in the going out and being like, I know I look good right now. Like, I know I'm doing this. And like, you know I can only I can know everything I know about systemic racism. I can know everything I know about, like, white mediocrity, but at a certain point you just have to go out there and like, do your thing. Yeah,

Justine Kay 14:23

that's so true. Your Podcast obviously has helped me so much with reading about white supremacy, patriarchy, I just dove into a fat phobia reading list this morning from your post this morning, and knowing the root of all of those secondary feelings that I have, anger, jealousy, pessimism. Knowing the root of those is really, really important to my root to optimism.

Traci Thomas 14:48

I think you know what? I actually think you're really right. Because I think that I've become more optimistic the more I've started reading about like abolition, whether it's like prison abolition or like environmental justice, like all of. These things are all sort of like under this big abolition category. And I think this idea of like, what is possible, what our imaginations can, like lead us toward, is really exciting to me. And like makes me feel hopeful, like that there is a different way that we could be doing this, even if we're not doing the different way, like we could be, it exists, it's possible. And I think that helps.

Justine Kay 15:24

I think, no, I think so too. I think so. I'll

Traci Thomas 15:27

tell you a crazy story. Last night, after I knocked doors with my kids, I went to my god sisters house, and she's got a 13 year old daughter, and her daughter has these two super cute 13 year old identical twin girls. They're Latina. Obviously, we all live in California. And I was talking to my niece, and I was like, What do you think of the election? And she's like, I like Kamala. And I was like, Well, why? You know, like, trying to, like, be like, a teacher, like, why? And my niece was like, because she's gonna help women's rights. And I was like, Wow, incredible answer. You got it right. Congratulations. Yeah. So then I turned to the twins, and I'm like, what about you guys? And they're like, you're not gonna like our answer. And I said, What? And he said, we like Trump, okay, and our parents like Trump, okay? And I was like, Okay, well, why? And they were like, the economy. They were like, interest rates were lower. I'm like, you're 13. What do you mean? I'm

Justine Kay 16:23

like, What do you mean a Connie,

Traci Thomas 16:24

what do you mean interest rates? So we get into this whole conversation and like, they start telling me about, you know, people who get handouts and want to work at McDonald's, and how they need to work harder, and all this stuff. And I was like, Listen. I was like, You guys are 13. You don't know a lot. You haven't even learned about the Supreme Court and government class yet. Like, you don't even know how this shit works, right? And, like, I certainly didn't, and the fact that they knew anything about interest rates at 13, I was like, You guys are gonna be fine. I said to them. I said, I know you two are smart. I know you're gonna be fine. I know that you don't know a lot, and that's okay. I said I'm not worried about you, but what I really hope that you two will do is start to think about what you would like for yourself and the world and the country that you will one day be in charge of. I was like me and my sister. We're old, we're done, we're washed. We're just trying to do the best we can to make sure you guys and our kids are gonna be okay. But like, you guys can shape whatever this thing is. And I was talking about possibility in all of this, and I was like, really, you know, doing my thing, sermonizing to these poor girls. And they were like, Yeah, but none of that can happen. It's not like everybody can just, like, make a million dollars. And I was like, Sure, but like, there are other versions where people have what they need. That doesn't mean that it's like, I was just like, everything's not about money, right? Like, right? I was like, maybe you don't need a million dollars if all your health care is taken care of, right? And the one girl was like, Well, do you really think that things would be better under Kamala Harris? And I was like, yeah, yeah. I

Justine Kay 18:03

really, I really do. And then she was like, Are you a communist? No. And I was like, I mean, no, but I'm not, not a communist.

Traci Thomas 18:19

I mean, it was just, like, such a crazy conversation, but it was just a good reminder to me that, like, all of this stuff, all of this, like politics stuff, it certainly matters. But also, like, if we're not teaching our kids how to dream bigger and like, visualize a world that they can create and like, have that optimism because they can see something that is better than what they have. Like, that was the part that was scary to me. When they were like, well, that none of that can happen. I was like, No, it can. I was like, it can. Things change all the time, yeah, like in our lifetimes. Yeah, right. Like, my dad was born in 1935 Wow. Okay, he's not obviously, he's no longer alive, but he lived till 2012 so he lived from he his family left Jim Crow Louisiana, moved to California. Yep, he my dad saw the murder of Emmett Till Yeah. He saw voting rights, the Vietnam War. He saw World War Two. He saw all of these things. He saw the first black president. Like that was all within one person's lifetime, right? Yeah, so I'm just like, I want the kids to believe there's something better I

Justine Kay 19:27

know. I want them to and I want them to know also. Well, they don't know because they're 13, but the four years 2016, to 2020, was rough. We were hearing that man talk every single day. Okay? I know I can't either, and for four years later, I don't hear Joe talk at all. Never really listen to him that often, and it's been wonderful, and I feel very taken care of. There are a bunch of very small. Things that have helped not only me, but I always say I also vote for Justine, who was like working at the host to stand at the restaurant in Manhattan, like I vote for her right more than me, because she's trying harder than I am, right, better,

Traci Thomas 20:14

right? You know,

Justine Kay 20:15

I vote for my co host, who just bought a house. You know, I'm I'm voting for not just me, right? I would love for them to feel like that.

Speaker 1 20:24

That's what I told them. I said there's more than just money and just you. Yeah. I'm like, there's more than your money, than your wallet. Also, you're 13, you don't even have money. That was what was crazy to me. That is crazy. I was like, Don't you care about like, birds in the environment, like something that you actually deal with every day. They were like, no interest rates. Oh my God, it was filed. I love that you're like the president you never hear from. I'm just thinking presidents, like children should be seen and not heard

Justine Kay 20:52

and not heard.

Traci Thomas 20:56

Okay, speaking of people who should be seen and not heard, we're gonna totally transition the people on reality television.

Justine Kay 21:03

Oh, man,

Speaker 2 21:07

okay, I want you guys started doing the Bachelor and The Bachelorette, but now you do. Love is blind, yep, Married at First Sight. Sometimes, sometimes housewife stuff. Sometimes, housewives,

Justine Kay 21:21

yeah, definitely.

Traci Thomas 21:22

What is the most enjoyable show for you all to cover

Justine Kay 21:26

absolutely love is blind.

Traci Thomas 21:28

And what about the bachelor? Where does that rank on your

Justine Kay 21:31

so here's the thing with the bachelor. Now for me, right, as like a grown about to be 35 year old woman, oh, my God, you're so young. To me, it's an exercise in improv and comedy, because at this point I have to look at it from a comedic lens, yes, because otherwise, if I take it too seriously, I can get too bogged down in it, and I can get too worried about stuff, and I got to and that's not fun. And we like to, like keep it fun over here. You know, God bless the game of roses, who are like coaching people. And yes, they have their own language, and they take it like, really serious, right, which is admirable, in a way. We don't do that over here. No, I can do that. So it's a really great improv class.

Traci Thomas 22:16

Was there a season for you where it went from being like, more earnest, taking it seriously, to it becoming more of like camp comedy for you.

Justine Kay 22:26

Oh my gosh. I think the season. Oh my gosh. When did that happen? Uh, after, honestly, after Matt James. Because Matt James was the most serious one? Oh, my

Traci Thomas 22:42

god, yeah, I think that season broke the bachelor. It really did. It did because we had Rachel KKK canal

Speaker 2 22:51

still together. Remember

Speaker 1 22:55

the season started with that sit down with Matt James and Chris Harrison, where he was like, Chris, I'm worried I like white girls. And Chris was like, It's okay, my brother, yeah. And I was like, this is not, not the how we want to start. I feel

Justine Kay 23:12

like he looked dead in the camera to my face. And was like, I'm not picking no black girl, yeah. So give up that dream now, yeah,

Traci Thomas 23:18

for sure. Yeah. Yeah. That season that, that was a hard one, yeah. And that had the fallout with Rachel Lindsay and Chris Harrison. That was just like, so dramatic. The whole thing, the most dramatic season ever, ever. And then, oh my god. And then we got a manual ocho out of that.

Justine Kay 23:37

The worst, the worst of all times, emotional Butler. Emotional Butler. Out of it, which

Speaker 1 23:43

is probably the best thing ever. Yeah, yes, that's what Van leaf and called him on van and Rachel's show. I'm gonna, I'm definitely linking to this episode of this fight between them on in the show notes, because if you have not listened to this conversation, I go back and listen sometimes, just, just for fun. Oh, yeah, once a year, yeah, it's, it's like a it's like an annual tradition. You know, Mariah Carey says, after Halloween, it's time, yeah? I said, after Thanksgiving, it's time. Let us be thankful to Emmanuel acho stupidity. Um, love is blind. Is great, yeah? Except I hate the weddings.

Justine Kay 24:20

Oh my god, the weddings are it's the

Traci Thomas 24:23

worst episode. The show starts off so good, and by the time you get to the weddings, they used to actually have the weddings, and you didn't know what people were gonna say, but now they all break up before the wedding. I'm like, Um, hello. Just do it at the altar, you assholes.

Justine Kay 24:37

I know. I know, because I loved the the absolute gaggery of like, deep, deep, breaking up with shake at the altar. Yes, that was so fabulous. Yeah, breaking up with

Traci Thomas 24:51

call my enemy in the

Justine Kay 24:53

end, oh, my God,

Traci Thomas 24:56

I hated call so much. And people would be like, up in my shit. Yeah. Oh yeah. Like, cold. I'm like, You guys are blinded by the baby blues. Okay? He's a fucking emotional terrorist. He's mean. He's nasty. She was mean too, but he was manipulative. Yep, he was fucked up and he was fat shaming her all over the place,

Justine Kay 25:15

all over the place, called her a nine out of 10, called the other girl, Colleen a 10 out of 10. That shit was absolutely crazy.

Speaker 1 25:22

That was crazy. Imagine your fiance being like you're a nine out of 10, and then actually saying someone else is a 10 out of 10 to you.

Justine Kay 25:34

Ugh. Boots, wearing leggings, old Lulu Lemon leggings, wearing girl like

Traci Thomas 25:40

she was a professional ballerina, though she was. Yeah, she was so props to Colleen for making the dream work, because only, like seven girls in the history of the world have ever been ballerinas. I know because I would have liked to be one of those. No, I was never going to be a ballerina. Way too intense that you did. What was the dance I started as in ballet, as most children do, but I, I had a very intense ballet teacher as a child, and she made it clear that I'm not, might not need to have that particular dream.

Justine Kay 26:11

Wait me too. Yeah. Wow. But

Traci Thomas 26:15

my, my ballet teacher was a passing black woman, oh, so it was, like, deep self loathing, yeah,

Justine Kay 26:25

yeah,

Traci Thomas 26:26

she was, she wasn't like, Oh, I'm not black. But like, she did not talk about being black, and people, I think, didn't know what she was, uh huh,

Justine Kay 26:35

and she'd like to sit in, I'm sure, in that spot, yeah.

Traci Thomas 26:41

Okay, you told me to ask you what you read pre show. Yes, I didn't. What do you pre live show or pre show in general?

Justine Kay 26:51

Pre live show, and then pre show in general? Okay,

Traci Thomas 26:54

tell me about it.

Justine Kay 26:55

I'll start with the live show. With the live show. I only listen to music with no words. It's really important for me to listen to stuff with no words. Okay,

Traci Thomas 27:04

what kind of music with no words? Like what I listened to?

Justine Kay 27:07

A lot of, oh my gosh, I don't know how to pronounce his name. Arturo, the something he makes a classic Italian like, classical album. A lot of like Miles Davis, a lot of like, Bill Davis trio, like, a lot just classic jazz music, wow, yeah. And then I was reading the message coats on the way to the on the way to the show, and that was important, because it was just important for me to, like, see the world bigger,

Traci Thomas 27:42

right? So we really got there to, like, talk about love is blind. Were you? Like, also the role of a journalist the Palestinian people and I booked banning in South Carolina.

Justine Kay 27:57

Like, Oh, I got to page 19, but I was just thinking, because in the first couple of pages, he talked so much about, like, the artistry of storytelling, I just felt really prepared to stand up there and talk about little low, Crazy Love is blind.

Traci Thomas 28:15

You know, I'm sure ta nehisi Coates would be so thrilled to know that his book has changed how you approach Love is blind.

I'm sure when he wrote that he had you, when he said comrades in the book, that's what he had in mind. You doing Love is blind. Live show. What about before, just

the regular shows? Do you do? Like, do you have, like, a pre show warm up that you do we do? Well, we

Justine Kay 28:40

have a warm up where we just Kiki in the beginning. It's usually like a solid 20 minutes that we're just sitting there laughing about our weekend. But I have been reading so many romance novels. I know I went through these romance novels. Thanks to you for starting off this train. Well, everyone listening

Traci Thomas 28:56

is gonna laugh because they know I don't really read no romance, but I have to shout out my friend Jess, because she is part of the stacks pack. She's like the romance girly. I go to Jess anytime I need a romance recommendation for myself or for others. And so Jess, she's at literary intersections on Instagram for folks who are looking for romance recommendations. So she has helped. I can't really take credit. I've just been the sort of conduit between the two,

Justine Kay 29:21

but I've been reading those, and we've been doing them for our pre show. My like review of them, because some of them are fantastic. Herbert girl summer was, like, amazing. I felt like I jumped into the characters, skin and bones. And then some of them are awful, yeah, yeah. Like, so bad. Yeah, yeah. One of them most recently that I got the best laugh out of Natasha. I was so happy. It was about primal play. Have

Traci Thomas 29:45

you heard of this before? No, but I think you talked about this on the show, right? Sure did.

Justine Kay 29:49

Yeah. It's when people bark like a dog and meow like a cat running around barefoot, and that's like their foreplay. And it. Goes on for a very long time. There's nicknames, there's like, all kinds of things. And there was no indication that this book was going to be about that

Traci Thomas 30:07

I see. So it was a surprise. Primal play, like in the book had been called, like, primal play, you would have been like, okay,

Justine Kay 30:14

even a little, a little forward, yeah, a little something like, Hey, this is what we're going to be discussing. Nope, cold, cold, open. What

Traci Thomas 30:21

was the book about?

Justine Kay 30:23

Oh, my God. It was so many storylines. It was about a turn in the air, okay?

Traci Thomas 30:29

Because it was also that dance, okay, we love it. We love a Jate in the air. My god, oh,

Justine Kay 30:36

they said it so many times. So it was about this Jamaican ballet dancer, okay? Who needed immigration? Okay, to so and needed, like, papers to stay in the US, because his brother was in jail, drug dealer, right? Okay, okay, wow. So

Traci Thomas 30:52

overwhelmed. Okay.

Justine Kay 30:55

So while he's staying there, obviously he makes friends with the local dance studio. So they're like a quadruple friends, right? And then the girl who he marries is also a young lady who designs video games in her spare time from designing the video games, she gets women out of domestic violence situations,

Traci Thomas 31:17

oh my gosh. So she's creative and an activist, yeah? Yep, yep, okay,

Justine Kay 31:22

someone starts stalking her from one of the domestic violence situations. Oh, yeah. And it just happens to be that one of the husband's brother's friends is the owner of a sex club that the owner of the dance studio also goes to. Wow, we have a whole all these storylines, all these separate story lines going on. This book was only 234 pages.

Traci Thomas 31:46

Wow. That author had all of that up in the air,

Justine Kay 31:51

just up there. Wow, incredible. Okay, we're

Traci Thomas 31:55

gonna take a quick break, and then we're gonna come back and talk a lot more about books. I'm thanks. All right, we're back before we get into your reading life, we do this thing on the show called Ask the stacks, where someone emails me for book recommendations. They email ask the stacks at the stacks podcast.com so person listening at home, you should definitely do that so you can get your recommendations on air. This one is from someone named Ashley. Ashley says, I am writing to you on behalf of my mother in law, Martha. She has advanced Parkinson's and spends a lot of time reading as it is, in an activity she not only enjoys, but one she can enjoy safely. She enjoys fiction, especially historical fiction, but she reads non fiction also. I'm sure you cannot relate, but two authors that come to mind that she loves are Kristen, Hannah and Elena Ferrante. She loves all things British and Australian. Enjoys Family Sagas. I would be so curious to see these interests of hers translate into a non fiction recommendation. So I obviously prepared. I have three recommendations for Martha, but you should think, if you can come up with any, you only have to do one. Okay, I can go first, if you'd like, okay, Ashley, you're correct. I cannot relate to loving Kristen Hannah and Elena Ferrante, in fact, I've never read either, so I have no clue what that means, except for I have a general sense. I don't know that your mother in law will like these, but I'm gonna try. So the first one I'm gonna give you is a book that I recommended to my own mother in law, which is called the Anthropocene, reviewed by John Green. It's a collection of essays where John Green goes through different things from the Anthropocene, our current geological age, and he reviews them things like sunsets and Canada geese and queerty from the keyboard. Oh, he reviews them on a scale from one to five stars, and it is so lovely and heartwarming and funny and smart and well written, and it is just such a joy. I loved it. My mother in law loved it, and I don't know that Martha will particularly love it, but it does have so many different facets and things to be interested in and curious about, and because they're like these little sweet essays, it's just like a really enjoyable read. I definitely think it's like a comfort read for a moment, like right now. So that's my first one. My second one is probably, I would guess, gonna be the most successful of my three recommendations, which is called all the frequent trouble of our days by Rebecca donner. The book is about this woman who was part of the resistance against the Nazis in Germany. She was American, and it's just this really interesting story, sort of of like spies and like obviously, resistance. Sting fascism, and it's really cool and has lots of twists and turns. And it is, it feels like historical fiction in a lot of ways, though, it is actually just real life history. They have a plot to like assassinate Hitler in there. It's a famous plot. People will be familiar with it if you if you read the book. Also, in this vein, I would say, like Eric Larson's in the garden of beasts is sort of a similar kind of book. And then my final, my third and final, which actually maybe this will be my most successful because this is actually just historical fiction, which is, if you leave me by Crystal Hana Kim. It's about a young woman during in Korea during the time of the Korean War, who is in a love triangle, and it's really sweet. And I love this book, and we did it on book club the first year of this podcast. And I still think about the book all the time. I just loved it. It's like, really, I was surprised how much I loved it. I loved the characters. The writing is really beautiful. The story was unlike anything I'd read before. And so I think, I think Martha is going to be happy with all three of those, but I don't think they're exactly what you asked for, Ashley. But you know what? When have I ever followed a direction? You're not the boss of me. Okay, Justine, what do you have? Anything? Yes,

Justine Kay 36:13

I do. Okay, I have one of my favorite historical non fiction. Want to say this is considered a biography, okay, called Once upon a secret by Mimi Alford. I don't know this. This is about her affair with JFK. Oh, 18 years old and intern. We

Traci Thomas 36:31

love a mess.

Justine Kay 36:33

I love it. Love it. I think that's my favorite part about historical anything is all the stuff that was covered up and then all the people who wrote all of these nasty details after these books, but Mimi writes about how three days into going to the White House, she was like, pulled into his office and pulled into the press office and had this long affair with JFK, very emotionally involved with him. And it is really intense, but in a way that you're like, Damn Mimi, you're not involved at all. You're not putting yourself in anything, anybody's shoes. It's just you observing from the outside. So it can be very escapist in the same way. Okay,

Traci Thomas 37:13

I love this, Ashley. Please let us know if your mother in law reads any of these books. Let us know what she thinks. And for folks at home, if you want to get a recommendation, on air, email, ask the stacks at the stacks podcast.com, okay, Justine, first and foremost, let's start where we always start. What is two books you love and one book you hate? Ooh,

Justine Kay 37:37

I can't wait to talk about the one I hate. Oh, my

Traci Thomas 37:40

God, I love you. This is why we're friends. Everybody's always like, I don't hate any books. And I'm like, what I listen that's my reaction every time I try to be respectful. But on the inside, I'm literally just like, fuck you. Yes, you do. They're like, I don't finish books I hate. I'm like, fuck you. You know you finished it, and you know you want to talk about it, but your friend probably wrote it. Yeah, yeah,

Justine Kay 38:01

oh, please. Well, okay, I'm gonna do two of my favorite books. One is a long time, one is a short time. Long time has to be dessert. Person by Claire saffitz, I

Traci Thomas 38:15

don't know this. I don't

Justine Kay 38:19

know it. Okay. Claire saffitz, one of my all time favorite chefs. She was big on the Bon Appetit YouTube channel, yes, yes,

Traci Thomas 38:27

yes. This is a cookbook. Okay, yes, okay. I know this. I know this, yeah.

Justine Kay 38:31

She was one of my all time favorites from Bon Appetit, which was my Roman Empire for years old Bon Appetit, right after that she came out with this genius book called dessert person. And Claire is a very, very smart lady, and so she has, like, a diagram of all the recipes. All of the recipes now have, like, very sentimental value to me, because I've made them in very sentimental moments in my life. And I just, she has a lot of video too. She does a lot of, like, just really great demonstration. There's beautiful images in the book. It's just a great, all around great cookbook. And then the other book that I love this summer was Curvy Girl summer, which I already mentioned, yeah, best romance novel I've ever read, I want to say, and yeah, just puts you into this, like, really lovely, empowering moment that this Kirby woman has for her summer, and great sex scenes too. So if you're into that, we love a good I love a good sex scene. Yeah, definitely. I hate is the guest by Emma Klein. Oh,

Traci Thomas 39:44

you okay.

There's listeners at home from the stacks who are obsessed with this answer, because I know a lot of people hate this book. Talk about it, but a lot of people love it.

Justine Kay 39:54

A lot of people love it, which is why I read it. One of the people who love it, I love Quinn. To Brunson, oh, she said that she wanted to make it into a TV show. And I said, Oh, my God. Well, I have to read it now if Quinton wants to make it into a TV show. So I read it, and I was horrified by the end at how despicable Emma was to to to these characters, to the reader. It was so there was no character development, no you he had nobody to root for, either. So it felt kind of hard to like keep going. But you want to keep going because you want to see what happened the end and then

Traci Thomas 40:31

the end was plateau, flat. Emma, you bitch.

How dare you? Emma, the plateau. Okay, I didn't ask you this before. What kind of reader Are you? How did you get into reading? Have you always read? Have you always loved books? Cues give us sort of a sense of like, what do you like to read more broadly? Yeah,

Justine Kay 40:54

I have always loved reading. I started reading pretty early. That's a really like, high value for my family and my mom. My niece right now is 17 months old, and we're already like, okay, what are we doing with these letters? She's recognizing the letters and stuff. So we are like, how

Traci Thomas 41:10

old were you when you started reading? My

Justine Kay 41:13

mother claims, two and a half.

Traci Thomas 41:16

Your Mom, come teach my little badass almost five year olds to read. It's

Justine Kay 41:20

different with boys. I don't know how it was my brother, but yeah, so it really reading, really young. My like, emotional support. A lot of people have an emotional support stuff animal. I had emotional support book that I would carry around. Which one was it? Oh, my God. It was something I don't know. Like she fell down. It was like, a sentence. It was a full sentence, so I used to carry that around with me. And then when I was, I want to say a teenager, my family and I were going through some really wild socioeconomic things. I was going to a really elite private school. It was really intense. So I would read a lot of either Nicholas, sparks so like real romance ease or hood, urban novels, okay, okay, favorite genres still to this day, um, so a lot of sister soldier um, and she has

Traci Thomas 42:13

a new book out this year. What? Yeah, I think there's, I think there's a new sister soldier book that can't that comes out this year. I cannot wait. I can't wait. It's called Love after midnight. Perfect. I think it came out. It came out this month. It came out in or came out in October. Yeah, yes. Go to the store, go to your local indie, get it. Okay, so you loved reading. You were reading Nicholas. You were reading Caucasian romance and then black shit, yeah, yep, yep. And then, now, where are we? What kind of read Are you now? You still like romance. You like cookbooks. We share this. We love Yeah,

Justine Kay 42:50

I love a cookbook. I absolutely adore your cookbook episodes. They are my ultimate favorites. Thank you. And yeah, I love reading a cookbook as if it's a textbook.

Traci Thomas 43:00

Me too. Me too. Solas is like, the gold standard of, like, if you just want to, like, learn about cooking.

Justine Kay 43:06

Yeah, she's a

great teacher too. She's another one great teacher. Great, great teacher. And, yeah, so I love reading cookbooks, and then I love reading romance novels. But I really do at any time when I'm feeling enraged or like trapped in my feelings of any type love reading about history and abolitionism, yeah, it's just the easiest way to curb those feelings. Internally.

Traci Thomas 43:33

I feel like you and I really connected after I did your show, when we started talking about books, and I recommended thick to you, and then you ended up loving it. And I was like, okay, we can be friends.

Justine Kay 43:43

Yes, yep.

Someone just asked me, What's the book that, like, changes your life, or what's the book every woman should read? I was like, thick by trustee McMillan got him. She's the best, she's the

Traci Thomas 43:51

best. She's the hero to me. She is the gold standard of, like, public intellectual.

Justine Kay 43:59

Yeah, oh yeah, definitely.

Traci Thomas 44:01

Okay. What are you reading right now?

Justine Kay 44:03

So right now? Oh, my God. I just finished a romance book called the wedding date.

Traci Thomas 44:08

Oh, Jasmine Guillory, uh huh. What did you think of it? Yeah, that's the red one. That's the first one, right? The red one, I've read that one.

Justine Kay 44:17

Yeah, right.

People talk like that.

Traci Thomas 44:22

People love her books.

Justine Kay 44:24

I understand why I

Traci Thomas 44:26

read the first one. I started the second one, and I just couldn't, yeah, it's a little too tidy for me. Yeah, right, yeah, yeah. It just it didn't do it for me. Um, what are some books you're looking forward to reading? Oh

Justine Kay 44:41

my gosh. Well, I'm really looking forward to reading this new sister soldier book Matt made my own. And I'm looking forward to finishing the message. And I usually buy romance books three at a time. Okay, so right now I am. To start, take a hint. Danny Brown, oh

Traci Thomas 45:02

yeah. Okay, that's part of a series, right? That's the Yeah.

Justine Kay 45:07

And then I gotta move into the Oh my gosh. What is her name? I can't think of her name right now, but one of the famed authors I have like you a hard page limit, okay? Of 303 50. If it's great, I'm gonna extend it 400 okay? I

Traci Thomas 45:25

think I have to for all books, or specifically romance, romance, romance, yeah, four. I read a 400 or something page romance book this year, and I just don't know that you can sustain 400 pages if you're just talking about one couple's romance. But I feel this way about all fiction. I'm just like, I don't know that I need to be here with you for 400 pages, if it's just one person thinking about doing something like, if they're doing shit, like, if you've got a character who's out in the world, moving shaking fucking shit up, I'll go with you 700 but if it's just one storyline, I don't need it.

Justine Kay 46:13

No. But most of those books are series, and so they move into the friend groups, and they move all the way out. I'm gonna try it. I'm gonna say,

Traci Thomas 46:20

okay, and you and I are gonna be reading luster very soon by Raven Leilani for Book Club, which I'm very excited about. Very excited. I only know that it is about a young black woman in New York, I think, who meets a white dude who's like, middle aged, married, has kids, I think, lives in the suburbs, and is it an open or has a wife that's open to an open marriage?

Justine Kay 46:49

Marriage, it is.

Traci Thomas 46:51

I don't know anything, but what I do know, what I'm smelling a mile away, is racial politics.

Justine Kay 46:57

Oh yeah, oh yeah. That wife is gonna be like, hard. I can't wait. I

Speaker 1 47:02

can't I can't wait till the wife touches her hair. Oh, my. I can't wait till the wife asks why she always puts lotion after they shower. I cannot wait to see two Americas together on a page, and it's a short one. So everyone, you're welcome by on purpose, we wanted to do short for November, because we don't know where our heads are going to be at

Justine Kay 47:27

No, My God, it's a holiday month. It's a lot. The burrs are a lot. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 47:30

the burrs are so much. Wow. September is the only one that's acceptable, yeah. And your kids go back to school in September, right? Yeah. So that's a dream for me. That is, My God, they went back in August. It was like nice shit, yeah, but they don't be in school at all in December, right? These holidays be stacking up. I get it. Teachers don't want to be with my kids either. They shouldn't have to be. But is there somewhere that kids can be away from all adults, but also safe and taken care of. Winter camp. There is winter camp there is but because of the holidays, it's weird, because it's like, two days here and one day here, it's just like, unless, like, I guess I have to see my kids on like, Christmas and Christmas Eve, all, yeah, but yeah, yeah. Anyways, this is not a talk shit about your kids podcast, necessarily. It is, but it isn't okay. What? How okay? How do you decide what your next book is going to be? How do you decide what to

Justine Kay 48:34

read next? Oh, my God, that's such a good question. I okay for the message, right? I didn't want to necessarily dive into what Mr. Coates, Professor Coates, had to say right now, because right now is a really stiff time. And then he got up on NPR and he said, All this racist shit just makes me sell more books. So whatever you want, like, it doesn't matter. Yeah, I'm I'm good either way, right? And I was like, Wait, that's my same attitude about everything. Like, whenever we just got a one star review on Apple podcast, it was like too much political talk. And I was like, that's a five star review to

me, yeah, yeah.

I didn't realize me and Professor Coates had that in common. Yeah? I like that

Traci Thomas 49:23

thanks to the haters, I also have this in common, yeah, always, always, my favorite version of myself is, what when I get to be the villain on your show, when I come on and talk about race, and then people are mad at me because I just let them know that someone maybe is black and they don't like that. But you know what? I'm never wrong. No, someone is always maybe black. Example, primo numero uno, fucking Steven from Love is blind. Is blind, blind.

Justine Kay 49:56

Oh, my God, that black man that that i. African American,

Traci Thomas 50:00

okay, the Ghanaian, Nigerian.

Speaker 1 50:07

What is so fucking crazy? I know we've talked about this at length, because I can't not talk about it, but that man, that light skinned black man, said I found out I was three fifths black, which is so crazy. To say crazy, like, just so crazy. It's like, accidentally amazing, unless he knows, I can't tell if he knew the history and said it on purpose, or if it was an act. Was it just like a perfect accident? Was it just like in the ether? Anyways, he says he's three fifths black, and then he's like, so I went to the library and I checked out books on Ghana and Nigeria. I'm like, my guy, your blackness is so uniquely American at this point, the fact that you're not reading like passing by nella Larson,

Traci Thomas 50:54

I was like, why didn't you watch Imitation of Life?

Yes, why did you go and read like a fucking book about Accra. You need to be reading a book about Mobile, Alabama. My guy

Speaker 3 51:04

shapes Baldwin, reading about how to knit a dashiki. You can read that,

Traci Thomas 51:12

yes, you are so far removed from the homeland at this point, do not start there. Do not, do not, at least, start at the transatlantic slave trade, my guy

Justine Kay 51:21

east, at least, because you don't then get up on international, worldwide television and say to your wife, to be wife, I like your black girl headband. That is a bonnet, sir.

Traci Thomas 51:37

He also called her a mutt. He sure did. She

Speaker 1 51:40

calls herself, but still, you just got black my guy, you don't get to be saying my yeah at the library checking out Nigerian culture for dummies. Okay, how dare you? He said, I'm gonna take I'm gonna learn how to make Jollof rice. Okay, yeah,

Traci Thomas 51:59

yeah, that's what's most important right now. Yep,

Justine Kay 52:01

I don't even know how we got here.

Traci Thomas 52:04

Okay, what is, what's a book you like to recommend

to people

Justine Kay 52:11

I really love recommending

thick, obviously, is one that I like to recommend to all women but white rage, by Dr Carol Anderson, that's another gem that you recommended for me that explains so many things. And what it does too is knowledge. What knowledge always does for me, as I've said now four times, is that knowledge like quells anger, right? So when I go to Pennsylvania to the pumpkin patch with my mixed niece and I see Trump hats and Trump signs all over the place. I kind of know where those people are coming from, right, historically and internally, and knowing that I know and they don't is enough for me to not get nearly as angry.

Traci Thomas 52:58

That's a great point. Is everyone in your family registered to vote in Pennsylvania?

Justine Kay 53:02

Oh my God, no, just my brother. He, Oh no, he's not even him. He because he's lived there for however long. But I don't know if he's registered or not.

Traci Thomas 53:10

Oh my God, I hope so. Everyone listening, we got the brother to register. Okay, don't worry, it's taken care of. Don't worry,

Justine Kay 53:18

he's a vet for taking baby on the way right now. So

Traci Thomas 53:21

for the future, my God, okay, how do you organize your books? Do you organize your books?

Justine Kay 53:26

Oh, great question. I just got this bookshelf because we needed the second one. Okay, I really need to get a library card so that I can start returning these back. Because I buy these romance books, three, three at a time. And it's not, it's, I don't have enough room for this.

Traci Thomas 53:41

Library is amazing. The library is the best. Do you listen to audio books

Justine Kay 53:46

at all? No, I'm not into it. They've always put me to sleep. That's okay. I

Traci Thomas 53:52

was just gonna say, Do you have a Kindle or, like, an e reader?

Justine Kay 53:55

I don't. I am so attached to the paper.

Traci Thomas 53:59

Okay. Well, I thought the reason I'm bringing this up is because with your library, you can get digital and audiobook checkouts as well. So I use that a lot sometimes, like, if I'm reading a book, I'll also check out the digital copy for my Kindle, so that at night time I can read on my Kindle and not wake up. Mr. Stacks.

Justine Kay 54:15

Oh, that okay, that I should get. Do you also

Traci Thomas 54:19

have a book light? So I can also do that too, but I just, I like it on the Kindle better at night. It's easier on my eyes.

Justine Kay 54:26

Do you you recommend the Kindle for an e reader? Well, no, I don't

Traci Thomas 54:29

recommend. I mean, that's what I have. There's a KOBO. There's other ones. I just don't have those because for my work, there's a platform that we use that sends to Kindle. So I have Kindle, but I don't necessarily recommend supporting Jeff Bezos. I recommend supporting your local bookstores and bookshop.org which supports Indies. They are, I think, working on a digital version. I don't know if it's a device or what, but they sort of were teasing it on socials. So I'm keeping my eyes extremely open for this option. Yeah. Speaking of bookstores, do you have a favorite bookstore?

Justine Kay 55:04

I do. Oh my gosh. My bookstore that I had growing up, watch on booksellers in Montclair, New Jersey. Okay, it is, what's it called, watch on booksellers, watch Avenue in Montclair, and it is owned by a lovely, lovely woman who I went to, like, camp with her daughter, like we went way back. This bookstore has been open for over 20 years. They now have a cafe that they bought next door that is like, oh and cute, and it just smell you can't. You can't even replace the smell. You cannot. You cannot.

Traci Thomas 55:41

What's the last book that made you laugh?

Justine Kay 55:44

Oh, man, who was on here talking about they don't like jokes and books? Was it Chelsea? It

Traci Thomas 55:49

was probably me. It was probably you talking to

Justine Kay 55:53

Chelsea, right? Yeah, I don't like that either. I don't and I especially don't like it when they say and then they cackled in laughter. I'm not laughing now. I

Speaker 1 56:05

feel left out. I am now laughing. Okay,

Justine Kay 56:11

what might have been, actually, though that primal playbook, oh,

I was Catholic laughter.

Traci Thomas 56:17

You are doing a hyena sound. I

Justine Kay 56:19

Yeah, okay. What

Traci Thomas 56:24

about the last book that made you cry? Oh,

Justine Kay 56:26

my God, it's been a while because that's what I've been trying to

Traci Thomas 56:29

escape. Yeah? Oh, probably

Justine Kay 56:30

thick. The first, like,

Traci Thomas 56:32

eight pages of thick. Yeah, yeah, good. What about the last book that made you feel angry?

Justine Kay 56:37

Ooh, angry. Um, oh, the guest by Emma Kline,

Traci Thomas 56:46

okay, what's a book that brings you joy?

Justine Kay 56:49

Oh, a book that brings me joy. I'm trying to think, trying to think. Here, my niece is obsessed with this book where this little boy turns into a walrus.

Traci Thomas 57:02

What's it called?

Justine Kay 57:03

I forget what it's called. I think it's Peter turns into a walrus, or some shenanigans like that. It's just so much fun because she breezes right through it, but she kind of makes the noises. Is it called Johnny

Traci Thomas 57:15

the walrus?

Justine Kay 57:17

Johnny the walrus? Maybe, yeah, probably, yeah. And she's at the point now where she's, like, imitating animals. What does a penguin do? What does a cow do? And so that brings me a lot of joy.

Traci Thomas 57:28

I love that. Okay, is there any book that you're like, embarrassed that you've never read, or just as like, the one book you're like, I need to read that thing.

Justine Kay 57:37

God, I have so many me too. I have so many Well, first of all, I can admit this. Now it's towards the end of the show, so I can admit this now I have not finished our baby by Toni Morrison, Oh,

Traci Thomas 57:48

it's okay, is it? Yeah.

Justine Kay 57:52

Oh, I started so long, going about halfway through, and I just until after I was gonna say the Election Day. I'm gonna say Inauguration Day. Okay, I just can't do any more.

Traci Thomas 58:03

Yeah. How do you know how far you are? Have you gotten to the dinner scene?

Justine Kay 58:07

I'm about halfway through. Okay, there's,

Traci Thomas 58:09

I think it's chapter six. There's a scene in chapter six that is so fucking good,

Justine Kay 58:16

unreal.

Oh my god, I gotta go back and see if I've already passed. I think it's, I

Traci Thomas 58:21

think it's slightly past halfway, okay, okay, okay, but I can't quite remember. I think there's one in four and one in six, if I'm remembering, or six and eight, there's like, one, there's one, and then there's a chapter, and then there's another scene that's even better. And I was like, gagged and couped. Okay. Do you have a problematic favorite book?

Justine Kay 58:42

I don't think so. I don't think I'm at that level yet. The coldest winter ever is one of my faves, yeah, and that's, you know, not exactly scholarly,

Traci Thomas 58:50

yeah, yeah,

Justine Kay 58:52

um, what

Traci Thomas 58:54

about a favorite book from childhood?

Justine Kay 58:56

Oh,

trying to think, I don't know. I'm one of those people. I don't remember a whole lot from childhood.

Traci Thomas 59:04

Me neither. I mean, that's true, but I don't remember a lot of things I read. And then something will someone will mention I'm like, Oh, I did read that. I like that when I was a kid or something. What about a favorite book that was assigned to you in school? Do you remember any?

Justine Kay 59:18

Oh, my God, I too. I want to say this might be a favorite book from childhood, or it was assigned. I can't remember which one it is, but the secret garden is one of my favorites.

Traci Thomas 59:29

Oh, I never read that. Oh, I feel like I saw the movie. Okay, yeah, I don't think I was moved by that story for some reason.

Justine Kay 59:37

Oh, I was living Yeah, me and Natasha are both entranced by a secret garden experience. We are both very obsessed with Vanessa Hudgens ad house store, because she has three secret gardens in her house. Oh,

Traci Thomas 59:50

three. She's three.

That's what I said. She also have un secret gardens, just like regular gardens. I

Justine Kay 59:57

think she has one in the front. Okay. It, wow. The

Traci Thomas 1:00:01

ratio is one to three on secret gardens. Okay, okay, cool. I guess, wait. I can't I can never remember if I get these two movies confused. I think is there a little black girl in the secret garden? Whoa. No, I don't remember that. There is a movie with a little white girl who, like, lives in an attic and there's like, a black girl named Sarah, or something that's like her friend. Oh my god, I can't remember what it's called. Someone who's listening, you will know what I'm talking about. This is so embarrassing because I can't think of it. I'll try to google it and find it and put in the show notes, but it's like, I feel like it's like the secret garden, but I liked it more.

Justine Kay 1:00:40

Oh, my God, because she had her black friend wear, yeah,

Traci Thomas 1:00:44

like, like a something Princess, maybe, like, secret princess or something. Oh, maybe, yeah, the fuck, secret princess

Justine Kay 1:00:51

movie, black

Traci Thomas 1:00:54

girl, it

is black girl, a little princess, a little princess. A Little Princess, I think that's what it's called. A Little Princess. Sarah is sent to a strict board. Yes, this is it. Sarah is sent to a strict boarding school up to her father and listened World War One when she is when he is presumed dead. The head of mistress, knowing she will not receive any more money, forces the girl to become a servant. Then she meets a black girl, other, other Sarah, or whatever. Yeah, okay, yeah. I loved a little princess, and I always wanted Secret Garden to be a little princess, and Secret Garden was never a little princess. Secret Garden can never do the race play that is happening in a little princess.

Justine Kay 1:01:35

Never

Traci Thomas 1:01:39

okay, if you were a high school teacher. What's a book you would assign to your students?

Justine Kay 1:01:43

I would assign anything. Colson Whitehead, okay, okay, I think he's great. That's the last book that gave me a nightmare. Was underground.

Traci Thomas 1:01:53

Oh, okay,

Justine Kay 1:01:56

so anything by him, and then absolutely. Dr, Carol Anderson, oh yeah. She makes you appreciate education to a degree that I after going to school, still paying for this goddamn school, I never appreciated education as much as I did. Could you imagine if

Traci Thomas 1:02:10

she was your teacher, just like I know those kids at Emory, lucky kids, you know, she came on the show and it was like one of my favorite, yeah, episodes ever. I think about it, she was so great. Okay, last one feels extra timely, but we're gonna stick with the current president. If you could require the current president, Joe Beezy, to read one book? What would it be?

Justine Kay 1:02:32

Oh my gosh. Something about student loans, exactly what? But oh, and Joe, I still remember how he treated Anita, too. I never forget that. I know he set up cam, but I'll never forget and I'm a nickname person. Guys don't be like offended. I'm just going through my nicknames. I call Barack Berry. It just is what it is. Um, so maybe, maybe something else about and by black women maybe. Wait, who is cam? Oh, Kamala Harris,

Traci Thomas 1:03:04

Oh, I see, I see, I see, wow, Cam, that's not what I would call her. I don't know what her nickname should be, though. Yeah, because cam isn't short for calm, old commie, old commie clause not gonna work. We'll workshop nicknames. Hopefully by the time you all are finishing listening to this episode, she will be our president elect, and we'll have plenty of time to come up with nicknames. We will have we did it, Kamala memes. We will have all the things we need. It'll be walls, old coach walls, saying

We did it. Cam, please. Please. From my lips, to whoever you believe in. Ears,

Speaker 3 1:03:46

oh, my God, to everyone that everyone believes in, yes, just

Traci Thomas 1:03:50

to anything. At worst, we're going to Elmo, whoever it is you need to believe in right now, Elmo save us, whether it's Elmo or LeVar Burton, whoever your God is, please, please. We want to like this episode in the future, and if things go bad, no one will ever listen to this episode. No. The truth of a podcaster. Okay, everyone serious now we have a book club coming up. Justine will be back on Wednesday, November 27 to discuss luster by Raven Leilani. You can get that book for 10% off through reparations Club, which is a black queer women owned bookstore here in Los Angeles. If you go to their website, rep dot club, search for luster and use the code stacks 10 and get 10% off. You're supporting a black owned business. It's a great thing. We will link to Justine's everything in the show notes, Justine, thank you so much for being here.

Justine Kay 1:04:52

Thanks for having me. This is so much fun. Everyone

Traci Thomas 1:04:56

else. We will see you in the stacks. You.

All right, y'all that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening, and thank you again to Justine Kay for joining the show. Don't forget the stacks book club pick for November is luster by Raven Leilani, and we will be discussing the book on Wednesday, November 27 with Justine Kay. If you love the show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/thestacks and join the stacks pack and check out my substack at tracithomas.substack.com. make sure you're subscribed to the stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, be sure to leave us a rating and a review for more from the stacks. Follow us on social media@thestackspod on Instagram, threads and Tiktok, and @thestackspod_ on Twitter, and you can check out our website at thestackspodcast.com. This episode of the stacks was edited by Christian Dueñas, with production assistance from Megan Caballero. Our graphic designer is Robin McCreight, and our theme music is from Tagirijus. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

]]>Ep. 344 Unstable Attachment to Realism with Justine KayEp. 343 The Nickel Boys by Colson Whitehead — The Stacks Book Club (Franklin Leonard)Stacks AssistantWed, 30 Oct 2024 07:00:00 +0000https://www.thestackspodcast.com/2024/10/30/ep-343-the-nickel-boys65d2b7a49de6215855aa3aaa:66084694f1e135566828a41a:671f0ac2a6cb155f1ac22244

It’s The Stacks Book Club Day, and we’re diving into The Nickel Boys by Colson Whitehead. Franklin Leonard returns as our guest to examine this powerful novel set in a brutal Jim Crow-era reform school. In today’s conversation, we discuss the ways Nickel Academy serves as a metaphor for America, exploring themes of good versus evil and the resilience required to confront systemic injustice.

There are spoilers on today's episode.

Be sure to listen to the end of today’s episode to find out what our November book club pick will be.

LISTEN NOW

Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Google Podcasts | Overcast | Stitcher | Transcript

  

Everything we talk about on today’s episode can be found below in the show notes and on Bookshop.org and Amazon.

To support The Stacks and find out more from this week’s sponsors, click here.

Connect with Franklin: Instagram | Twitter | Website
Connect with The Stacks: Instagram | Twitter | Shop | Patreon | Goodreads | Substack | Subscribe

To contribute to The Stacks, join The Stacks Pack, and get exclusive perks, check out our Patreon page. If you prefer to support the show with a one time contribution go to paypal.me/thestackspod.

The Stacks participates in affiliate programs. We receive a small commission when products are purchased through links on this website.

TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Traci Thomas 0:08

Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Traci Thomas, and today is the stacks book club day. We are joined once again, by Hollywood producer and creator of the blacklist, Franklin Leonard. Franklin is here to help me discuss the nickel boys by Colson Whitehead. This book is a Pulitzer Prize and national book, award winning novel. It is set in the Jim Crow South and follows the story of Elwood Curtis, a young black boy sent to a brutal reform school today. Franklin and I dig into this novel discussing which parts worked for us, what didn't, and how the novel stacks up to the forthcoming film that will be out later this year, there are spoilers in today's episode. Be sure to listen through to the end of today's episode to find out what our November book club pick will be. And quick reminder everything we talk about on each episode of the stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. If you love the stacks and you want inside access to it, head over to patreon.com/the stacks and join the stacks. Pack for just $5 a month, you get to be part of the best bookish community that has ever existed in the history of books. This has definitely been fact checked. I promise you can get access to our Discord, join our monthly virtual book club meetups and get a bonus episode each month. You also get to know that by being part of the stacks pack, you make it possible for me to make this show every single week. So if you like what you hear, please go to patreon.com/the stacks and join another fun perk of the stacks pack is that you get a shout out on this very podcast. So thank you to our newest members, Melanie Madden, Katie Cara and Lisa Lucero crier. Also, if you love the show, you want to support the work that I'm doing, but maybe don't want to be part of a bookish community. I have a newsletter just for you. It is called unstacked. You can access that by going to Traci thomas.substack.com you can get my hot takes on books, pop culture, find out what I'm going to be up to next, and all of that goes right to your email inbox. Again. That's Traci, thomas.substack.com Okay, enough of that time for my conversation about the nickel boys with Franklin Leonard. And reminder, there are spoilers.

All right, everybody, I am joined again today with Franklin Leonard, the creator of the blacklist, Mr. Hollywood himself, Franklin, welcome back to the stacks. Thank

Franklin Leonard 2:38

you for having me. I'm anxious about this. I mentioned this before, but I'm anxious about this conversation. I don't think I've had a conversation about a text in years, at least in public. I

Traci Thomas 2:49

have a feeling that you're, we're gonna get to the end of this conversation, and you're gonna be like, that was so much fun. Every time I do book club episode, when people feel anxious about it, they end up really having a good time. So I'm just gonna put that into the universe. And to be

Franklin Leonard 3:04

clear, I think I'll have fun. I think there will be a cycle of oh my god, I sounded like an idiot immediately after the conversation's over. That's my bigger fear. Well,

Traci Thomas 3:13

let me tell folks what we're talking about today is the Stax book club day. We're talking about the Pulitzer Prize and national book award winning novel, the nickel boys by Colson Whitehead, which is also being turned into a major motion picture, which you and I have both seen. So we can talk about it briefly, though, originally, it was coming out at the end of October, and now it's not coming out until December. So people at home, you'll have to wait a little bit longer. Wait.

Franklin Leonard 3:39

I'm going to interrupt you for one second because I want to point out that then moving it to December is a mark of distinction of how strong the movie is. You do that when you know that your movie is in the hunt for Academy Awards, as this one is, and that is why it was moved. So for those unfamiliar with the goings on in Hollywood, the move is an indication even more that you should see the film, not less

Traci Thomas 4:05

Yes, yes, yes, yes. But you'll just have to be more patient for folks who are listening, who haven't read the book, please know we are going to spoil this book, and this is one of those books that you do want to read before it gets spoiled for you so you can turn us off and read the book. It's very short, and come back and everybody else, I'm going to give you a quick rundown of what what the book is about. It is about a young man named Elwood in the 1960s living in Florida who gets in trouble with the law and sent to a reform school for boys called the Nick called nickel. Nickel Academy, called the nickel called nickel Academy. It is for both white and black children, though it is segregated, and he meets another boy there named Turner, and they become besties. And the place is really fucked up and abusive. And they treat the kids terrible, and it is based on a true true story, true history. So that's sort of the quick rundown. We always start here Franklin, which is like, just generally, what did you think of the book, and was this your first time reading it? This

Franklin Leonard 5:16

was my first time reading it. And it's funny because this conversation, like deciding to have this conversation coincided with the movie coming out, and I was asked to moderate the Q and A's for it at the Telluride Film Festival. And so I was reading it in sort of double capacity, which, you know, if you value efficiency in your life, like I do, it was like, this is a win. I have to read a book that I've wanted to read for a while, and it has two purposes. I was flattened by this book and absolutely heartbroken by it. I think, look, there's no secret that I'm a fan of Colson Whitehead. There's a reason why a lot of people were fans of Colson Whitehead as a writer. But this book in particular, yeah, it just it obliterated me in so many ways, and I think has forced a lot of introspection about what I believe about the world as a consequence.

Traci Thomas 6:01

Okay, we're gonna talk about that. Did you read it? You read it before you saw the movie? Yes,

Franklin Leonard 6:08

I read it before I saw the movie. Okay, same.

Traci Thomas 6:10

So this was my second time reading the book, and I the first time I read the book, felt the same as you. I was like gutted by the ending. I did not see the sort of twist which we can talk about coming even though it is literally on the cover of the book. I somehow missed. I missed that. You're not the only one, but on this, yeah, I don't think so. I think a lot of people missed it, but on this second read, I have to be honest with you, I didn't like it as much, really. I to me the ending was so important, I think, for my love of the book like that, I was so blown away by this twist and that that was so much of the emotional resonance that, because I knew that was coming. I think I just read the whole book this time, looking for clues to see how he did it, and kind of being disappointed, because I felt like he didn't really, there were no tricks. He just did it. He just was like, Nope, this is another kid. He does leave clues throughout, including the first sentence of the book and the cover and all of that. But I didn't. I don't I don't know why I didn't feel as tied to the book in the same way that I did the first time. I mean, don't get me wrong, I think it's really good. I think the writing is really good, but I didn't have any emotional response even to some of the earlier stuff, some of the abuses and things. And I maybe attribute that to the fact that I read a lot of dark non fiction about this kind of stuff, and so I sort of wasn't feeling like as sad about it. I don't know I did like the stories of all the boy the other boys like in the at Nickel more this time, I was paying more attention to, sort of those, like, and I guess, like, sort of like, little short stories about all the ways those other kids were fucked up. But yeah, those are sort of my general, general thoughts. It's

Franklin Leonard 8:11

interesting. I haven't read it for a second time, and I wonder if I would feel the same way. My instinct is, is that I wouldn't, but that's only because for me, I think, like you, I do a fair amount of reading and non fiction in this space. And so the trauma and the violence against these kids was not actually something I was terribly enraptured by when I was reading the book. For me, it was about these sort of competing ideas about how to navigate life as a young black man in America, that this idea that, you know, Elwood fundamentally believes that there's good in the world, that people are, by nature good, and that if you give them all the information that they need to do the right thing, they'll do the right thing. And Turner's intentional distance from everybody and resistance to emotional connection, and then the flip, obviously, that happens. And what Whitehead is saying about the consequences of naivete, about the extent to which speaking out results in tragedy and maintaining distance results in you being broken. And so for me, I think as I think back through the book again, not just not reading it for a second time, but as I think back through it, and having seen the movie now on multiple occasions, I'm more fascinated, and I feel like I'm trying to interrogate more what what is the twist trying to say about who these people are and what they think about the world In the context of the events of the book as I think through it, like the second reading, or imagined second reading? Yeah,

Traci Thomas 9:48

no, I think I think that you're right. I think some of it is that I went into it thinking about the ending, and I read it right when it came out, like my copy is a signed first edition, like I. Read it. Want to save that? Yeah, I've, yeah, I've got it here. Any of the stickers

Franklin Leonard 10:05

pass that down through generations? Yeah?

Traci Thomas 10:08

But I think, like, what has stuck with me over the years since I've read it, you know, hundreds of books later, was that ending, was that twist, and so I think going back to it. That's what I remembered most, and that's what I was the most curious about. I definitely think, like, the writing is great. I think those questions you're talking about, which we're going to talk about today, are also great and really beautiful and and those did, like I did think about those things, but I think mostly I was just reading to get to the end this time in a way that like didn't, I don't think it served the book, but I also, you know, one of the things that I think about a lot is like, what makes a book an award winning book? What makes a book especially like a Pulitzer, a National Book Award, which this book won? What makes something worthy of those kinds of honors? And one of the things that I often think about with books, which is different than how I feel about maybe like an Oscar winning movie, is that, to me, a book like that should be able to be read multiple times, and each time you read it, you get something new and different, and it changes with you, whereas, like sometimes an Oscar movie, I'm just, like, I saw it. I'm never going back to Oppenheimer. Okay? I'm never doing that again. I'm glad I saw it. I liked it. I was impressed, but like, That ship has sailed. And I was a little shocked by how much I didn't feel like this book had changed for me. And so that made me sort of question, like, I don't and I again, I think maybe I was just like, went into it with the wrong energy, I don't know, but it was, it was a little disappointing for me this time, though I still, when I got to the end, was still like, that's such a fucking good twist. Yeah, yeah. And I guess since we are spoiling it, we should tell people, if you haven't read the book and you don't care, the twist is that Elwood ends up dead by the end of the book, and Turner takes on elwood's identity. So we're we see el we see an adult Elwood throughout the entire book, and then we find out on page 202 of 213 that adult Elwood is actually Turner, all grown up, but taking on Elwood after elwood's death, which is just the tent so tender,

Franklin Leonard 12:23

yeah, I mean, it's, there's so many layers to it. There's just so so many layers to it.

Traci Thomas 12:30

Well, let's go. Let's start with Elwood and his sort of early, early in the book, we meet Elwood. He is a teenage boy. He is, by all intents and purposes, a goody two shoes. He is a rule follower. His like great, his great object of his affection is a record of Martin Luther King speeches. I mean, he is like the most stereotypical Good boy. He, he's his parents have run off to California. He lives with his grandmother. He, you know, takes a job at a candy shop, and he, he tells on the kids who are stealing candy, you know, like he is so gullible, he loses this encyclopedia, like he does this whole contest, and it's all they scam him out of these or into These encyclopedias. But he is always so morally clear, good do the right thing. Smart, going to take classes at a college on his way to the college. He is gets he hitchhikes so he can be on time to his class, because he's our good boy. Gets in the car with this man who, of course, is not as good as Elwood is legally in the criminal eyes of the criminal justice system. He has stolen a vehicle. They're pulled over. The cop has a great little racist line to end the section, and he ends up at Nickel. What do you make of this main character being so squeaky clean.

Franklin Leonard 14:01

You know, I think, I think that his squeaky cleanness comes from a belief that, through good works, there's salvation in America, even if you're black, right?

Traci Thomas 14:13

Especially maybe if you're black, yeah, that you that

Franklin Leonard 14:17

by being good, you can participate in the American dream. You can have all the things that we are told that we want, even in the face of the white supremacy of sort of early 1960s Florida, specifically Tallahassee. You know, it's funny. I think there's a little bit of like King X sort of happening here between wood and Turner and, yeah, I think that's where it comes from. And I think that even in the early days of, you know, pre nickel Elwood, you know, he gets involved in this dish washing competition, and he thinks that by winning the dishwashing competition, by being the best, he'll have access to knowledge, he'll get, he'll win these encyclopedias. And he takes these inside. Encyclopedias home, and most of the volumes are blank, which, again, I think, is a metaphor for the the black experience in America. You can be the best, but the the prize is, is a is a fake. You know, you can, you can do well in school. You can be the gifted student who's invited to go to to this, to this, this college, and take extra classes, but you won't even get there, because something that you did so that you could be a part of that will be intentionally misread by the justice system and instead put you in this reform school. And you know, I'll be honest, I identified a lot with that I was the squeaky clean kid in west central Georgia. My parents were not unaware of the world. Were not unaware of the realities of being black in the Deep South, my father grew up there as well, but they, I think, tried to protect me from participating in a lot of the resistance around that, because there was a longer view. We got to keep you safe. You're special. If we can just navigate you through this difficult period. You can go off into the world, and maybe you can participate then, but at least then you'll be prepared to do so, you know. And it was hard the more I read the book, and definitely when I saw the movie, there's a moment where they show Turner's driver's license as Elwood right in the film is, it's a brief shot towards the very end of the film. And, you know, he's born in the late 1940s My father was born in the late 1940s in a place not far from, from where this story takes place. You know, my father was the squeaky clean kid who did really well academically. He was the, I believe, the third black graduate of the Medical College of Georgia, like he was Ellwood. And I think thinking about it in that context was, I think that was the beginning of the process of flattening me.

Traci Thomas 16:54

Yeah, I think it's really interesting. I do think like what you're saying, because I too, relate to an Elwood as a younger person. I think I have more turn. I think I'm more a little more Turner side.

Franklin Leonard 17:10

I think that's what happens. I think I suspect, and I haven't been able to have this conversation with Colson, but I suspect that he was also an Elwood in his youth and became a turner, which I think is also sort of part of the central metaphor of of what, the, what the, what the book is saying is that many of us start as elwoods, but the only way to survive is as a turner, because being Elwood gets you killed,

Traci Thomas 17:35

right? But okay, let's, let's carry this, yeah, the only way to survive is to be a turner. However, in the book, Turner is the one who dies metaphorically right turn, there's no continuance of the Turner line. The Turner becomes the Elwood. And it's an interesting sort of inversion, because the argument that I feel like is being made throughout the youth of the book is like Elwood is too naive. He's too simple. He doesn't see what's happening. He doesn't see the danger, you know, he's Little Red Riding Hood. He doesn't see the fox waiting for him, and all of these things. Turner sees it. Turner says, I'm gonna write my own story. I'm I'm gonna do this on my terms. That's his line throughout the book. That's like one of the clues that Colson gives us throughout the book, is, I'm gonna do this my own way, my own way, and but in the end, he chooses to wear the costume or the embody that good, that good boy, right? Like he chooses to take on that name. And so when we as we're reading it, before we know what happens, we think that Elwood has really matured into this other person, that it's possible to go from being an Elwood to being more like Turner. But really, Elwood is killed, and Turner has put it on. Does that make sense? Like what the question is, it

Franklin Leonard 19:01

does. It's interesting. When I was reading the book, you know, it would flat, it would flip back between sort of the 2010s and the 1960s and one of the things that I really struggled with was, how does Ellwood, the Ellwood we know in the early sections, end up running a moving company like it just never, it never struck me as consistent. It was like he was, was he so broken by this thing that was all he was capable of, and it was, and so that was actually one of my early clues that something was up. Like I didn't know what it was so interesting, you know, and I clocked the ace that the moving company is called ACE, which is obviously the highest level at Nickel. That is supposed to be your salvation. And then there's, you know, the there's the Epilog, which, if I'm I made these notes sort of while I was reading. But it's, you know, it's not enough to survive. You have to live. And. Yes, Turner is taking on the mantle of the name, but he's the one who lives. And that, I think, is the big takeaway. And I don't know that he's actually living either. I think that he is surviving, you know, and he's surviving better than Chicky Pete did. He's definitely surviving better than Elwood did. I think that's my takeaway. Like I actually hadn't thought about the fact that he's bearing elwood's name, and what does that mean? Because I guess he probably could have just chosen any name, right? But I think it's also as I think about it now, I think all of us who have evolved into Turner's in one form or another know that there is nobility in being Elwood, and that being being Elwood, in the face of the consequences of it, is something worthy of acknowledgement, reverence, praise, but it's not a rest. It's not a recipe for for surviving, and it's certainly not a recipe. I'm not sure I want to think about I'm

Traci Thomas 21:03

not sure that there is something, I think we're told there's something noble about being in Elwood, but I don't, I don't know that that's true. I think that that's like, a nice idea, that, like, we have been taught, that is like, internalized into us, that we want, that we should be like like, that we should be idealistic, and that we should see the good in everybody. But I just don't know that. I don't know that that's not like white supremacy itself, telling us that right like, I think doing the thing to survive, I think doing the thing to blaze your own trail is noble to me, because it is easy to it is easy to be, to become a person who does things for the recognition or the approval of others, which I think is also like, sort of the flip side of who Elwood is like. He's a goody two shoes because he wants to be seen as he wants to be seen by another outside force, whether it's his grandmother, whether it's white people, whether it's even the people at the Nichols Academy. And I'm just like, I don't, I don't know if I believe that, that that is the right and noble way. Well,

Franklin Leonard 22:19

it's interesting. So I read Elwood a little bit differently. I read Elwood as having an incredibly righteous sense of right and wrong, and a belief and a belief that by being right, you can win the argument with anyone right, that by being good, it is therefore undeniable that people have to recognize your humanity and have to treat you as a human being. I think he knows, for example, that you know, writing a record of everything that he's seen at Nickel and sharing it with people. He knows that there are potential consequences for that, but he's willing to do it, even if it attracts the disapproval of his best friend of the teachers and may cause him severe harm. I think that he sort of represents this belief that, like, there is right and there is wrong, and you do the right thing, and in doing the right thing, you make the best argument for for your humanity and for for goodness. I mean, there's, there's a lie in the book. If everyone looked the other way, then everybody was in on it. If he looked the other way, he was as implicated as the rest. That's how he saw it, how he'd always seen things. And for me, that that's, that's the part that I think that we all, on some level, have reference for, reverence for we we do have reverence for, and I think should have reverence for the people who are willing to stand up and say, Listen, this comes with great potential costs for me, but we gotta be real. This is how it is, and the rest of us because we need to survive, because we want to live, because we gotta pay our rent. May not be as vocal about the way things are by necessity. And I think that both of those strategies are what we as black people in America, but I think more broadly, as people facing injustice have to deploy in order to navigate the world and try to make it better.

Traci Thomas 24:16

Okay, I am realizing and talking to you about this, that perhaps I am more cynical than I knew.

Franklin Leonard 24:26

Well, hi, I'm probably with you. Well,

Traci Thomas 24:29

I'm just thinking like I'm hearing you. I agree. I think Elwood has this very strong moral compass, but to me, his lack of understanding about the world is not admirable to me. It is a sign of, like, his incompetence and like that youthful sort of bravado where he thinks, just because he's seen an injustice, if he talks about it, that this is like, you know, we talk about like a lot of times in the. Justice circles, like dealing with, you know, injustice, whatever is, like, There are tactics to doing the thing that you want to do. And I think that Elwood is like, a little bit of a like dummy, because he, like, thinks, like, oh, I wrote all these notes, and I'm just gonna hand it to these people, and that's the best way to do this thing. Or, like, I think that, like, that part of him worse, maybe we're supposed to think is good, that he has the strong wall compass and he's gonna stand up and he's gonna do the right thing. But I read that a little bit more like it was sort of like, I was sort of like, disgusted by him in some ways, of just like, it's too pathetic, like it's too naive, it's too pure, it's too good, and I'm sorry, but like, you're done, like it just it doesn't work for me. But, yeah, go ahead.

Franklin Leonard 25:54

No, I think that's fair. I think that. I mean, I play that out though I agree. I mean, look, he's sort of guileless. Yeah, he doesn't have tactics. He does end up dead, and Turner ends up broken. And the school continued for years, and the the other dead boys weren't discovered until 50 years later, and and in many ways, the novel was about, is Turner going to say anything? Is he going to go back? Is he going to raise his voice and say, This is what happened 50 years ago? And the question is, I think the question for us all, on some level, is, if we don't want things like the Dozier school for boys to happen, and that's what the nickel Academy is based on, yeah, how do we speak up? How do we? How do we navigate a world that that is like nickel, where the rules are arbitrary, where there's no amount of merit, there's no amount of distance that prevents you from being either murdered by it or flattened by it? How do we? How do we fight back and and I think what's interesting to me about the book is that it doesn't provide easy answers. It says, Look, here are two strategies, and here are the consequences of them. What are you going to do? And I think that's really the thing that is in a moment like the one that we're in now, I think has forced me to have conversations with myself about, who am I going to be in the world? Am I going to take a verbatim sort of journal of what I know about the world and share it with the world that possible great consequences to myself? Am I going to maintain an emotional distance and just try to survive and keep my head under the radar so it doesn't get clipped and to what end any of it? And I don't know that I have the answers, and I don't know that anybody has the answers. And I think on some level, we are all set with the task of making, you know, a series of choices about how we want to live in the world and what those things

Traci Thomas 27:51

mean, yeah. And I think, like, from a literary standpoint, having these two characters that do feel like so polar opposite sort of arguments in this conversation about, how do we show up in the world and how do we invoke change? Like, there's sort of these stand ins, as you said, perhaps for Martin Luther King and Malcolm X, or just like, different ways of agitating and activating. I do think that it's interesting that Colson White had chose to go so so, like, obviously polar opposite, right? Like, he's really using these characters as sort of this stand in for this bigger conversation. And I think, like in the real world, you need some Elwood and you need some Turner, and you need some Chicky Pete. You need, like, you need all of these people because they to to make change, to force change, even though, for these kids, you know, it was a time, a long time coming, right? Which is also part of the problem about changing the world. It's not something you can really do overnight, yeah?

Franklin Leonard 28:55

Well, look, it's not, it's not for nothing. You know, it is Elwood that writes the journal, but ultimately it's Turner who share who shares it?

Traci Thomas 29:06

Why do you think Turner shares it when he knows better? Because

Franklin Leonard 29:10

I think he he knows that Elwood is right.

Traci Thomas 29:13

So you think he's swayed by Elwood argument versus sort of like maybe being a little vindictive because he's annoyed by his friend.

Franklin Leonard 29:20

I don't think so. I don't I find it hard to imagine a scenario where in Turner shares the notebook with with the sort of you know, state authorities who are coming in to investigate JFK. Look

Traci Thomas 29:35

alike. Yeah, exactly.

Franklin Leonard 29:36

I find it very hard to believe that he shares it with the intent to get Elwood murdered, which is exactly which he knows would happen if he did. I think if he wanted to be vindictive, he would just take the journal and destroy it, right and then it's like you better learn. But I think it's ultimately Turner who shares it. I think he is, I think that. And I think again, we all share this tension. We know the truth needs to be. Said. We know the truth. We know that that somebody's got to stand up and say it. We also know that it comes with consequences. And so it's Turner, who's like, All right, well, this is what you're committed to. I'm going to do it. And then when he realizes just that, that his friend is going to die, it's like, we got to get out of here. We get this is, this is the one chance that we have to go. We got to go now. And I may be misread, I may be misreading it, but I think for and again, I think it's I'm so close emotionally to this content that I'm probably imputing my own personal struggle with how to be in the world into some of the their behaviors. But I think that, I mean, Turner knows it's fucked up, you know, yeah. And so he and he most certainly wants to do something with it. Part of doing it his own way probably is standing up. But there are consequences that come with that. So, yeah,

Traci Thomas 30:50

yeah. I mean, I just struggled with why Turner did it. I guess I hadn't really considered that he might have just been swayed by elwood's argument. Of like this, this version of events that turns out good for them.

Franklin Leonard 31:07

I don't think he's fully like hope. I think that's what I mean. I think that there's, yeah, hope is the thing that kills you. I think that, like, ultimately, you know, the story of their relationship is they begin very, very differently. Elwood is ramrod straight back, whatever. And you see Elwood beginning to drift and make these compromises and understand how the world works. And he's able to bite his tongue a little bit. But as things get worse and worse, and then once Griff happens, that's the point that sets it off. And I think the grit the Grif situation is the thing that puts Turner over the top two is that he knows that Griff didn't understand that which which round he was in that explain the

Traci Thomas 31:50

do you want to explain the? I'll give it to you. Okay, so Griff is one of the boys at the school, one of the black boys. They have an annual boxing competition between the black kids and the white kids and all the teachers, like, bet on it or whatever. And the principal, Headmaster, guy, he pulls Griff aside and says, You gotta do what's right. And griff's like, I don't know what that means. And he's like, you gotta swing for the fences and miss. And Griff is like, I'm so sorry, I can't understand. And then the headmaster says, You gotta lose. You gotta throw the match. And griff's like, in the third round, and he says something along the lines of, like, but you'll always know that you could have beaten him, and that's just gonna have to be enough Blackie. And Griff is like, okay, okay. And Griff, as I sort of alluded to, is maybe a little slower. That's how he's presented to us. He's not the smartest, sharpest crayon in the box, Elwood or Turner overhears this communicates it to the other one, though, in the movie, they both hear it. So now I can't remember who heard it. I can't either. Yeah, in the fight, Griff wins by accident. He thought it was still the second round. It is just one of the most heartbreaking moments of the entire book. Just and they kill him. They take him to where they out back, or the White House or whatever, and they kill him, and he's gone. And none of the other kids know about the what happened. They don't know about he was supposed to throw it, but both Elwood and Turner do, and it is really a pivotal moment in in the book, in the story, in their both of their evolutions. And I think kind of to the earlier conversation. I do think maybe it resolves Elwood more that's sort of when Elwood I mean, it doesn't happen exactly then, but Elwood gets the idea that the only one of the the fifth way to leave nickel. Well, we're told there's four ways to leave nickel. You can serve your time. The court can change their mind, you can die, or you can run away. And at some point, Elwood decides, or you you could burn it all down. You could destroy the institution that is the nickel Academy. I think that event sort of seals elwood's thinking about, you know, he's got to do the thing that's going to burn it all down. And I think, to your point, it maybe seals and Turner's mind that he's got to run away like that. He's got to get out of here. This is not a place he can be. Yeah,

Franklin Leonard 34:28

that's that's my take on it. Is that that moment is what makes Turner say, yeah, he's probably wrong, but maybe elwood's Right. Maybe there is some version of a path out here, and when that path fails, the only other path available to them is an attempted escape, right? Yeah, that that's how that's how I read it.

Traci Thomas 34:53

Okay, let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. Okay, we're. Back. What do you think of the escape plan? Of of Turner's escape plan? He shares it with us earlier in the book. He tells us his plan is to go south, go away from the swamp, because they're going to be looking for you. Going north, near the swamp, change your clothes. Eventually, head back up when no one's looking for you disappear.

Franklin Leonard 35:23

I mean, I feel like Turner has probably thought about it more than most, and he's a smart kid. I think it's the best escape plan available to them.

Traci Thomas 35:33

I mean, it works, yeah, like, for one of them, for

Franklin Leonard 35:36

one of them, and I think, and I think part of the reason why it only worked for one of them is because, you know, Elwood had been so depleted by his imprisonment that it was like, physically, he wasn't as able to escape as Turner was at that point.

Traci Thomas 35:49

Yeah. So what happens for Elwood? So they turn in the papers, the notes about all the we because Elwood and Turner have been working off campus for their little work study, air quotes, their internship, and they've been doing these favors for employees and board members and stuff like painting their deck, and also like taking the food rations from the black kids food court, and like selling them for more money.

Franklin Leonard 36:21

It's slave labor. It's another metaphor for just sort of how America treats the black community, right? It's like two black kids slave labor. It's plunder sold out to local white businesses for essentially free or heavily discounted labor. That where the financial upside accrues to the the managers of nickel, and they're taking all of the the bounty, the harvest, the food, the the materials that are intended for these kids, and giving it to these, these, these white businesses who are already doing quite well, exactly. Sounds, sounds terribly familiar?

Traci Thomas 36:58

Yes, I believe I've read this one. Yeah. And so Elwood takes notes, every assignment, every loaf of bread he's got it, who it went to, who paid for it? How much he gives it to Turner. Turner gives it to the inspectors who come to the campus, because there's rumblings that maybe something's going on at the campus. They're just checking in, gets back to the school, Elwood ends up being taken to the White House. Well, I guess technically not. He's like, ends

Franklin Leonard 37:27

up, yeah, there's like, there's a, there's essentially an attic, like a hot box, yeah, sort of in the roof, in the roof of the building, and basically just locked in there, no windows. It's incredibly hot, no food, no water. So he's just, he's just physically depleted.

Traci Thomas 37:43

Yeah. And then Turner and the other boys, one of the boys works at the office. He gets word that they're gonna, they're gonna kill him, that they're gonna take him out back, I think is what they call it, yeah. And so Turner's like, well, now got to enact my brilliant plan. Swoops them up, takes them out. They go. They steal bikes from a family that they had done work for. They knew they were out of town. They steal the bikes that are outside. They ride down south. They're going somewhere. The whites come, the nickel people come, they shoot, they kill. Elwood Turner gets away.

Franklin Leonard 38:27

So sad it is. I also think it's notable that Harper is the one who shoots out wood, right? Harper is who they

Traci Thomas 38:33

were working for, who was like their overseer.

Franklin Leonard 38:36

He's their overseer, but, but, but throughout the book and in the movie, he's presented as, like, one of the good ones, right? He's, he's, he's a guy his secret. Yeah, they know his secret. He's, he's, you know, he's driving them around. It's like three, like they're all sitting in the front of the truck together. You know, they're talking about things that young men would talk about, and in many ways, he has acted as their protector on some level, because he's like, Hey, man. Like, look, you could be hanging out here with me. We're gonna go out into the world. You get a little bit of freedom, or you could be back at at the academy, like, doing heavy labor. Surely, this is better. Like, Listen, guys, let's hang out, but at the end, but at the end of the day, he's the one he takes the gun and shoots out with dead, ostensibly, the man who's presented himself as a friend,

Traci Thomas 39:28

right? I mean, and I think I mean, clearly, that's on purpose. Like, the idea is that there is no such thing as, like, good good whiteness, right? Like, it's all in service to to the bigger thing, to the or the you know, that's not to say that they're such thing as good white people, but like, if you work in this system, even if you are nice, you still work in this system. You are still you are this. As Miriam Kaba told us on this show a few years ago, the purpose of a system is what it does. Purpose of nickel Academy is to abuse and harm these children. And if you work in that system, you are part of that system, even if you hang out with the boys and eat a chocolate bar or whatever the fuck Harper was doing,

Franklin Leonard 40:11

yeah. And when push comes to shove and a choice has to be made, he's gonna choose the system. He's gonna choose the preservation in a broader sense of white supremacy,

Traci Thomas 40:22

the power, you know, and also they made him look bad. So I'm sure there's some vengeance on his side too. They put he took notes on all the shit they were doing, and this Harper guy was fooled. He didn't know that they were scheming and scamming. And for all he knows, it was both of them together, because Turner's the one who hands over the paper, yeah, in cahoots.

Franklin Leonard 40:46

That's That's exactly right. I also think that, like the other sort of implication here, is that Elwood not just taking notes on what the bad people at Nickel Academy are doing, he's taking notes on the system as a whole, who is received, who in town, who's the businessman is receiving that stuff, who's, who is benefiting? You know, it is a, it is a litany of who is, of how the system functions, and how widely the benefits of that system are being distributed. And so, you know, one could imagine a scenario where he was more narrowly tailored in the in what he transcribed, and he pointed the finger at just the person who's running nickel. This is the bad guy. You need to replace him. Where it might not have gotten back to the administrators of nickel. But the the real danger, the real threat, is to to, you know, describe the system as it is, and who benefits from it, and that's the thing that gets that's the thing that is most likely to get you killed, and

Traci Thomas 41:47

that because that is the most dangerous thing. Yeah, any one person could be expendable if he had just fingered one person for one for one beating, or one person for one dealing. You know, even if it was the person at the tip top, you fire them. You someone else gets hired, someone takes over. But when you show the whole system is corrupt, and here's all the ways, there's really no coming back from that, you either deal with it or you kill the child who did it and move on. Like if it gets out, if it has to be dealt with, than it has to be dealt with. But if you can suppress that which nickel could and did and continue to do for another 50 years, I want to talk a little bit about adult Elwood Turner. I find that character really, really compelling. I think, you know, on my first read, that was the person I was the most connected to, the most interested in, the most rooting for. I liked the boys, but I think I was just like, wow, he got out, like, he's got a business, you know, you you can survive and move on. And I think again, I read that the book in 2019 and I was I had not done, or thought a lot about incarceration and punishment, and, like a lot of these things that I think now I have and on this read, you know, my big question ended up being like, Who the fuck is taking care of our kids? Like, what are are we? We're not doing right by our kids. And that the book takes place in 1960 in the 1960s but like it could be now, just as easily and and, you know, I wrote this just hasn't changed as much as as we would like to think, the punishment of black children, the outsized punishment, the Over the top punishment, whether it's, you know, maybe it's not the Dozier school for boys anymore, but I would, I would argue that some juvenile systems are probably pretty bad.

Franklin Leonard 43:51

Yeah, the school, the school to prison pipeline alone, right? The way, the way. Yeah, your average kid in school, black kids are punished more than than white kids. That is true in 2024 even if it's not as extreme as it was in 1962

Traci Thomas 44:06

right? Even if the physical violence isn't as pronounced or as obvious as it is in this story, the way that it happens, the way that the kid who accidentally is hitchhiking with the wrong person ends up in trouble, or the way that even just like a kid who wears a hairstyle or doesn't

Franklin Leonard 44:28

like, we got kids getting kicked out of school for their hair right now, so, like, yeah, 100% totally,

Traci Thomas 44:33

for not putting their phone away, all of these things. I think, like, I just, I don't know, I think I've just become really obsessed with this idea that, like we're just not taking care of the kids, and it's really devastating.

Franklin Leonard 44:47

Yeah? I mean, because we're not, I think, you know, there's probably arguments that we're doing a better job than we were years ago, but certainly they deserve more than what we've been capable of to now. Yeah, one of the other funny. Things that I did really enjoy about the book was how the one Mexican American kid kept

Traci Thomas 45:05

getting Jamie, Jamie, back

Franklin Leonard 45:08

and forth between being like, like, in living, like, living with and socializing with the black kids. And then it got, I think it was literally he's like, and then he got when he was tan, he was with the black kids, and then, like in the winter months, as his as his complexion got lighter, someone was like, Ah, it's not, it's not really appropriate to put the Latino kid with the black kids. We got to move him over to the white kids. And how he gets shuttled back and forth between these two communities was, I thought, just an incredible comic beat that lays bare how the nickel Academy generally is just a metaphor for America,

Traci Thomas 45:44

right? And how race is just completely arbitrary, yeah, right? Like it's like, just, you're Dan, you're not. I also love that. That also Jamie sort of becomes this spy. He's the one who's he's like, Oh yeah, I saw that teacher over there doing this. Now he's over here doing that, and I love that. Like, in a lot of ways, Jamie is one of our sort of unsung heroes of the book, right? Yeah, I

Franklin Leonard 46:09

would have, I would have loved a little bit more insight into his psychology. I mean, I know I thought that's not the intent of the book, and, like, one could always say that about any interesting character, but I would have loved, like, one could write an entire novel, yes, Jamie fanfic, yeah, about, about that character in that context, and I would read it. Yeah, happily,

Traci Thomas 46:30

I would read it too. I would, I would spend a lot of time with Jamie. There's a part towards the end of the book where Elwood comes into language from a Martin Luther King speech about the capacity to suffer, or his writing about the capacity to suffer, yeah, the Cornell College Speech, yeah. And I'm just going to read this section because I thought it was pretty it's pretty good pull pull for this book. So it says, throw us in jail and we will still love you. Bomb our homes and threaten our children. And as difficult as it is, we will still love you, send your hooded perpetrators of violence into our communities after midnight hours and drag us out onto some Wayside road and beat us and leave us half dead, and we will still love you, but be assured that we will wear you down by our capacity to suffer, and one day we will win our freedom. What do you make of that?

Franklin Leonard 47:35

I think it's um, I think it's sort of an ex that's that's a Woods worldview, right? Is like, I we, I will win my dignity. I will win my freedom by being good.

Traci Thomas 47:48

Yeah, I think hate it so much. Yeah,

Franklin Leonard 47:52

I, I, and they killed King for it, and they killed it for it, yeah?

Traci Thomas 47:57

I mean, I think, like, it's hard to even, it's hard to be a person in 2024 who has received have has been granted rights that, you know, we always should have had because of those kinds of conversations, to to think about some of the things that King was saying, like that and and Not like, and it's hard for me, because I'm like, I hate it so much, but also, I guess I'm grateful for it in ways, but it's hard. It's hard to have to, like, hear someone essentially groveling to be like, to be seen as human. It's just like, so,

Franklin Leonard 48:42

Oh, interesting. So I read that differently than as as groveling. I maybe groveling

Traci Thomas 48:48

is not the right word, but I do want to hear how you read it. I

Franklin Leonard 48:52

read it as a threat, right? I read it as so my attitude about this is, and I think about this a lot my my father's grandfather was born enslaved in west central Georgia, right? Like that. Is very proud, yeah, my great grandfather, I it is the arc of the black experience from enslavement to present day for me, just is always felt very present. I think it's because of where I grew up. It's because I think about these things a lot, and I you see the ripple effects of that dynamic in American society and globally. For me, what I read King as saying here is there is not shit you can do to us that we will not be able to endure. Do whatever you want, do whatever you want, threaten our children, send hooded perpetrators of violence into our communities after midnight, beat us and leave us half dead. We will continue to be on the moral high ground. We will continue to live our lives as we see fit and in time because we are so strong because we do. Have a capacity to endure that you in your violence, perpetrating, in your fear, our endurance will win the day, right? And I understand that pose. I think that what trips people up is the we will still love you part people still love you, you know. And I read the we will love you as because we are, because our humanity demands that we love other humans, because that is the moral expectation that we have for everyone on this earth. And we have already reached that, and you have failed to that's how I read that. It is, it is from a position of great strength of do whatever you want. You're gonna, you're gonna, you're gonna, you're gonna engage in your, you know, your mediocre little violence. You're gonna come at us with enslavement. You're gonna come at us with with Jim Crow. We will still be here. And eventually you're gonna have to get it together. You're gonna have to recognize that we are as human as you are, and have been forever. And when that day comes, we will win. That's how I read it. And again, I will admit I am a pessimist and a cynic by nature and an optimist by practice. And so it is entirely possible that that reading of that falls into the optimist by practice thing, but yeah, my attitude is, yeah, we're better than you, and you can keep doing whatever you want to do, but in time, eventually you're gonna have to get your shit together and you're gonna realize how terrible you've been. And that's, that's how we win. But we're not gonna read. We're not gonna engage in the same nonsense that you guys are engaged in, because frankly, it's beneath us.

Traci Thomas 51:34

I do. I do like your reading. I think you're probably right that that's like the spirit and the intention of the thing. I think for me more what is like difficult is just thinking about that being the approach. Oh, yeah, you know, like that. That's what that's what's really hard for me. It's like thinking about how, not so long ago, that was the only way we could even approach these conversations was like, kill us, harm us like we're we'll still love you, and eventually we will get there. And I know that that, you know, that was the play in the 60s, but it's hard to really like, it's hard for me to hear that and think that, because I think now of like, how, how, I guess much things have changed because of that, but also how much things are the same and that that is still sort of expected of marginalized communities this like we will suffer for what we know is right, because we know that's the only way, instead of just like, Fuck you, burn it down. I don't love you, I hate you. I'm gonna kill you.

Franklin Leonard 52:39

I Yeah. Look, there's a human part of me that is like, okay, yeah, but fuck that. Like, how dare you right? I, it's funny. I People talk a lot about, like, you know, the arc of history bends towards justice and a long and a long and long enough timeline, we'll get there. And I think the thing that you know, we hear you believe that I mean a long and long enough timeline, yes, but, but here's the catch, right? Is that it does not that calculus that you know, over time there is salvation, it ignores the crushing, debilitating, murderous consequences of the action in the immediate term, not all of us are going to get there, right? Not all of us are going to survive. Not all of us are not going to be broken or killed by the system. And it's funny because I have two, like, sort of quotes that I had pulled from the book. The first one was literally the King quote that you just mentioned. And the second one, I believe, is Turner talking about his interaction with Chicky Pete, the boys could have been many things had they not been ruined by that place doctors who cured disease or performed brain surgery, inventing shit that saved lives run for president. All those lost geniuses, sure, not all of them were geniuses. Chicky Pete, for example, was not solving special relativity, but they had been denied even the simple pleasure of being ordinary, hobbled and handicapped before the race even began, never figuring out how to be normal. And I think that, you know, I That, for me, is sort of at the core of what this book is, is that, yeah, sure, some of us, some of us, survive, many of us who do survive. And I think you and I both fall in that category. Have a profound sense of survivor's guilt, because we know what the consequences of getting into the wrong car on the way to our special, special college could have been. We become Elwood. I know that my father, you know, there are a lot of ways his life could have gone very differently, and he managed to walk on the rock right the walk on the right rocks, you know, across the river. But how much have we lost in the interim? Who have we lost in the interim? And I don't just mean who, as black people, have we lost? What? What diseases could have been cured? I. By by the young men who were killed or maimed or broken during the 60s because they were just trying to speak up for the right to sit at a diner. And that's everybody that's not black people, that's not just white people, that's not just Americans. What has the world lost as a consequence? Yeah, and I think, again, I think that's that's at the central that is the central tension that I think Whitehead is investigating here is, what are the consequences of an America that is as arbitrary and as cruel and as designed and punitive and as does as designed to be so, not just for the individuals who had to suffer through it and maybe survived, but for all of us who are denied the things that were taken from them. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 55:51

I think you're right. I think you're right. You know, thinking about who, who get, who gets a chance to survive, right? Who gets to survive, and that just by virtue of being alive, we have survived, because survivors survived before us, right? Yeah, at least long enough to make it possible for us to be in the world. And I think, I think that is what's so gutting to me and like so what makes me hate that quote so much is like we didn't have to suffer. Yes, we did survive. Yes, we have the capacity to suffer. We didn't have to. Like, this is, I

Franklin Leonard 56:26

don't think, yeah, I don't think that King is saying that. I think he is saying no, no. I

Traci Thomas 56:30

don't think he is either. I guess what, like, I'm saying, like, my reading, what I think makes me, like, hate it so much, is like, Yeah, we love you and we will survive, but like, we will suffer and we will win our freedom, but, like, we didn't have to fucking go through any of this. If you people had just had a spot, you know, like, yeah, to your point. Like, who else could have been here? We're totally running out of time. But I do really quickly want to say, talk about the movie, if we have a second, yeah, what I want to talk about with the movie is, did you feel that the movie pulled off the book? Because one of the things that I think I actually never would have said that this should be a movie, because the thing that Colson Whitehead does so well in the book is show you what you need to see when he shows you what he wants you to see. Sorry, not what you need to see, what he wants you to see when he wants you to see it, yeah, in the movie, the big difficult challenge is that, how do you show that Elwood old is not Elwood because they look different in the movie. And the movie Turner is light skinned, and Elwood is darker, yeah,

Franklin Leonard 57:36

and it's described that way in the book too, as I recall, right? I

Traci Thomas 57:39

see, I see, I don't remember it being described that way, but I wasn't reading for that. When I read, I wasn't thinking about the casting. I think I

Franklin Leonard 57:46

was probably already thinking about the casting when I read the book. Maybe I'm wrong, but for whatever reason, I remember, you know what it is i This may be fictive memory, because I know that when I read the book, I was thinking about those two young actors as Elwood and Turner. And so I might it's very possible that I just like injected them into my visual imagining of the book, and it's not actually on the page,

Traci Thomas 58:05

okay, I don't remember. I didn't see it. I didn't clock it, but it is possible. But so in the movie, you it's visual medium. You have to see things. And so they make a choice where the whole film is filmed through the point of view of the two boys, what they see, literally, the camera is their eyes in the beginning. It's really cool and a little bit jarring. Eventually you settle into it, and it makes a lot more sense. But why couldn't they have just cast two boys that looked more similar to each other, like they didn't have to make it so hard on themselves?

Franklin Leonard 58:40

It's an interesting question, and it's one that I'd love to actually talk to and Rubel about. And the producers, I think they just got two actors who, like, yeah, and they have those two have a really good rhythm together. I was able to spend some time with them at Telluride. It was funny because I asked them, like, how long have you guys known each other? And like, oh, we met during the chemistry, and you're just like, wow. It literally seems like you two have been friends since you were children and and so I'm sure on some level, it was just like, Oh, my God, these two are amazing. And then they had to solve the problem of the of, sort of the sleight of hand of it all. And I think what's interesting about it for me is at least, I think if you're black, I think you clock it a lot earlier than if you're not watching that movie because of the

Traci Thomas 59:25

spontaneous and you and I both clock you, and I think about color a lot. Yeah,

Franklin Leonard 59:29

I'm look, but I think that I do. I think that there's, I think that there's something in that I don't I think that if you're not being relatively vigilant about it, or not necessarily predisposed to that kind of thinking, you're not necessarily going to clock it as easily. And I talked to a number of people who saw it who didn't clock that that issue, but I also think that the POV issue solves a lot of the problems, because you're not you're not seeing the actor. You're seeing through the actors eyes. And then there is the reveal at the end, which I thought was. Actually very, very beautifully done. You know, I Ramel Ross is a really exciting filmmaker. I think that, you know, when I, when I read the book, knowing that I was seeing the movie, I was like, I don't know how you adapt this. Like, I really this, I I'm worried for him. No, I already had a great deal of admiration, respect for him, but I was like, I don't know how you do this. And this is why I'm probably not a director. But I think that, I think that, I think Ramel is just an incredibly exciting filmmaker, and it's one of those films that you know you you find yourself asking yourself questions about the choices that he made as a storyteller that lead you to understanding better the story that he was trying to tell, which I just think is exciting. Did

Traci Thomas 1:00:36

you talk to people who hadn't read the book, who saw the movie? Yeah, yeah. Did the ending work for them? Because for me, I read the book twice by the time I saw the movie, so I was like, just literally watching the movie to be like, how are they gonna do this? It didn't really have that emotional resonance at all for me. But also I was literally just like, how will this moment unfold, right? Yeah, and I'm really curious to people who have no clue what's coming, if they felt at the end when you see the driver's license and they sort of expose the ruse, if it worked for them?

Franklin Leonard 1:01:11

Yeah, I, you know, I moderated 2q and A's try to tell you ride. And I think in both cases, you know, the audience is just sort of sitting there dumbstruck at the end. It's not, it's not even like, look, this is not a film that you when the film ends, you stand up, you leap to your feet and start applauding, right? This is a film where you are like I said, I was flattened by the book. I was flattened by the movie in the same way. So I yeah, I think it lands. I think it lands pretty effectively. But I also think, again. It's not. It's not one of those things where you're like, standing ovation, etc. It is, yeah, I need to sit with my feelings in a dark room by myself for several hours, kind of thing, by the way, parentheses compliment I want. I don't want people to think they shouldn't see the movie like, this is a movie that will just see the movie like I don't. I don't. People

Traci Thomas 1:02:03

should definitely see the movie, especially people who have listened to us talk about the book and have read the book. I'm so curious to know how people will think, like in this community of intense readers will think of the adaptation, and how they will think about it like to the source material. There

Franklin Leonard 1:02:18

will be those probably, possibly, understandably, depending on the argument they want to make, who will not love this adaptation for whatever reason? Yeah, and it's challenging adaptation. I think Rome did a phenomenal job with it, but it is, it's it's challenging in a way that I want more films to be challenging, but it's not. It's not easy.

Traci Thomas 1:02:37

Yeah, I agree with that. I think there are parts of it that I struggled with, for sure. And again, I was so interested in in what the cinematography was doing, and how, how they were framing the shots, and how they were doing that point of view. I thought that was, like, just so smart and interesting, and it's really beautiful.

Franklin Leonard 1:02:56

Yeah, I'm just actually checking shout out to Jomo Frey.

Traci Thomas 1:02:59

Jomo friend who shot my friend's husband. That's, I

Franklin Leonard 1:03:03

mean, this dude, man. Like, really, there's another. He has another. I mean, yeah, he shot, he shot all roads lead to salt, or all roads, all dirt roads taste of salt. Like, Jomo is a special, special cinematography.

Traci Thomas 1:03:19

He's gonna be a star, I think. Yeah, so talented. Okay, we usually talk about the title and the cover. The title is great. Whatever the cover is, a genius cover. That fucking shadow coming together. It's a one person. I'll never forgive the cover artist who is Oliver Monday, a genius in the cover industry. Yeah, cover god. Is there anything else you want to say about the book before we get out of here?

Franklin Leonard 1:03:50

Yeah, I think that the main thing that I just want to flag is that this was inspired by Ben Montgomery's reporting at the Tampa Bay Times. And if you go to official White House boys.com you can learn more about the Dozier School for Boys in Marianna, Florida, that inspired it. You know, I was also taken with the that Elwood. You know, one of the first, really issues that he has at Nickel is when he's like, this is not a school. Can I get some books here? And I think this idea that you know, that you can you you get punished for acting above your station. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 1:04:30

I think also, Colson so brilliant with some of that stuff, because he knows as reading it now, reading it in 2019 and on that, we're going to see he doesn't have to do a lot of work. He just has to make a sentence or two, and we're gonna get it because we understand the cult, the historical context of the thing. I think in a less talented writer's hands, there would be a lot more. Elwood was so mad they wouldn't give him the books, blah, blah, blah. But all we really need is for Elwood to ask the question, and we already know,

Franklin Leonard 1:04:59

yeah. Yeah, no. I mean, I think there's literally, he's like, you know, in the hospital, Elwood wondered if the business, the viciousness of his beating, owed something to his request for harder classes. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 1:05:10

yeah. Don't get that's all you need. Don't

Franklin Leonard 1:05:12

get too uppity. Don't, don't imply that you are better than than what you have been offered, or that you deserve more than you have been given, especially

Traci Thomas 1:05:20

when you stole a car. Yeah, the truth of it is that you are a car thief. You're not a smart boy. You are a car thief. So don't pretend right to be something better, as when you are the worst, exactly,

Franklin Leonard 1:05:34

as though a car thief can't be smart, which is my favorite part. Yeah, no, it's

Traci Thomas 1:05:40

um, but like, even when he he's driving to the school and with the two white boys, and they're like, oh, and then the guy in the front seats, like, well, you're sitting with a real live car. Like, as if that is, like the thing, even though we know he's clearly not, oh, one

Franklin Leonard 1:05:55

thing that does need to be said on the new Ellis, oh, the performance

Traci Thomas 1:06:00

I

Franklin Leonard 1:06:01

I mean, look, it's oversight Exactly. She does not miss, you know, it's as as Elwood grandmother. It is not a principal role. She's a supporting character here. And it's note perfect. Note perfect. I just would like to see her in as many things as possible and in roles that are as rich with depth and breadth as her frankly ridiculous talent.

Traci Thomas 1:06:33

Okay. Well, on that note, we will end today. Folks, you can listen to the end of today's episode to find out what our November book club pick will be. And Franklin, thank you so much for doing this. Thank you for being here. This was such a treat. It's

Franklin Leonard 1:06:47

a real pleasure. I hope it didn't sound too dumb.

Traci Thomas 1:06:49

Did you have fun?

Franklin Leonard 1:06:50

I knew I'd have fun again. It's more just I hope that as people hear this, they're not like, wow, that guy's a dummy.

Traci Thomas 1:06:56

No, never You're smart. Don't worry. I think they hurt, smartness, everyone else, we will see you in the stacks.

All right, y'all that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening, and thank you again to Franklin Leonard for being our guest. I'd also like to say a huge thank you to Eliza Suarez and Randy Winston for helping to make this conversation possible. All right, now what you've been waiting for our November book club pick is the novel luster by Raven Leilani. This novel is about a young black woman who gets involved with a white middle aged married man whose wife is down for an open relationship. It is raw, it is provocative, it is messy and it is darkly funny. Our episode on luster will be out on Wednesday, November 27 Tune in next week to find out who our guest will be. If you love this show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/the stacks and join the stacks pack, and you can check out my sub stack at Traci Thomas, dot sub stack.com. Make sure you're subscribed to the stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, be sure to leave us a rating and a review for more from the stacks. Follow us on social media, at the stacks pod on Instagram, threads and Tiktok and at the stacks pod underscore on Twitter, and you can check out our website at the stackspodcast.com this episode of the stacks was edited by Christian Dueñas, with production assistance from Megan Caballero. Our graphic designer is Robin mccright, and our theme music is from teguragis. The stacks is created and produced by me Traci Thomas.

]]>Ep. 343 The Nickel Boys by Colson Whitehead — The Stacks Book Club (Franklin Leonard)Ep. 342 Evangelizing Abortion Rights with Jessica ValentiStacks AssistantWed, 23 Oct 2024 07:00:00 +0000https://www.thestackspodcast.com/2024/10/23/ep-342-jessica-valenti65d2b7a49de6215855aa3aaa:66084694f1e135566828a41a:671681df2445520767903e9a

Author and activist Jessica Valenti joins The Stacks to discuss her latest book, Abortion: Our Bodies, Their Lies, and the Truths We Use to Win. In today’s conversation, we explore why the left struggles to effectively talk about abortion and the impact of abortion bans on maternal healthcare. Jessica explains the significance of “states' rights” in this debate, why she believes compromise around abortion is impossible, and how her  Abortion, Every Day newsletter differs from the book.

The Stacks Book Club pick for October is The Nickel Boys by Colson Whitehead. We will discuss the book on October 30th with Franklin Leonard returning as our guest.

LISTEN NOW

Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Google Podcasts | Overcast | Stitcher | Transcript

  

Everything we talk about on today’s episode can be found below in the show notes and on Bookshop.org and Amazon.

To support The Stacks and find out more from this week’s sponsors, click here.

Connect with Jessica: Instagram | Twitter | Website
Connect with The Stacks: Instagram | Twitter | Shop | Patreon | Goodreads | Substack | Subscribe

To contribute to The Stacks, join The Stacks Pack, and get exclusive perks, check out our Patreon page. If you prefer to support the show with a one time contribution go to paypal.me/thestackspod.

The Stacks participates in affiliate programs. We receive a small commission when products are purchased through links on this website.

TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Traci Thomas 0:08

Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Traci Thomas, and today I am so excited to welcome Jessica Valenti to the show. Jessica is a journalist, feminist author and activist known for her influential work on gender politics and reproductive rights, her latest book, abortion, our bodies, their lies and the truths we use to win, offers a powerful exploration of the fight for reproductive freedom. Today, Jessica and I talk about why she wanted to write this book and how it was influenced by her sub stack. We talk about what tools people can take into the real world when having conversations about abortion, and we talk about what all this new anti abortion legislation is really about. Don't forget, our book club pick for October is the nickel boys by Colson Whitehead, and we will be discussing that book on Wednesday, October 30 with Franklin Leonard. Quick reminder, everything we talk about on each episode of the stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. If you love this show and you want inside access to it, please head over to patreon.com/the stacks and join the stacks. Pack for just $5 a month. You get to be part of the best bookish community. You get to join our Discord. Come to our monthly virtual book club meetups. You get bonus episodes, and you get to know by joining the stacks pack. You make it possible for me to make this show every single week. Another perk is that you get a shout out on this very show. So here's a special shout out to some of our newest members of the stacks pack, Jean Kawahara, Sadiq, vofana, Courtney, Johnson and Julie Sally. Thank you all so much. And listeners, if you're sitting there and you're thinking, I want to support the stacks, but I don't really want to be on a discord, whatever that is, well, you can subscribe to my newsletter. It's called unstacked at Traci thomas.substack.com you can get updates with what I've got going on. You can hear my hot takes on books and pop culture. And by doing that, you also get to support the stacks. So head to Traci thomas.substack.com and subscribe. Okay, now it is time for my conversation with Jessica Valenti.

All right, everybody. I'm so excited today I am joined by Jessica Valenti. Her new book is called abortion, our bodies, their lies and the truths we use to win. I have to just say it is exactly the book that you want when you're going to those conversations with those people, and you know exactly who those and they are. But Jessica, welcome to the stacks. Thank

Jessica Valenti 2:46

you for having me, and I'm so glad to hear you say that that was exactly the hope. So that means a lot. Yes.

Traci Thomas 2:51

I mean, let's like, we can start with just like, a little bit about the book, but I want to talk about audience desperately, so let's just start with, like, 30 seconds or so will you tell folks about abortion? Sure,

Jessica Valenti 3:03

the book is based on the last two plus years of reporting I've done on abortion for a daily newsletter that I keep called abortion every day, where I'm really tracking every single thing that's happening with abortion rights, whether it's, you know, bans and policy or anti abortion strategy, or the really terrible horror stories that we're hearing come out of anti choice states. And there's so much there. And the hope with the newsletter was to really provide a little bit of order to the chaos. And so with the book, I wanted to do the same thing, but sort of exactly as you said, give folks a tool for these conversations and sort of give them the information, the context, the language that they need to go out and evangelize for abortion rights. Because I hear from so many people, young women, especially, that they care so much about this issue that they really want to be out doing something, but that they feel not as confident as they would like to be. And so the hope with the book is that it will arm them with all of all of that stuff, all of the information, all of the confidence that they need to go out and and have the conversations that they want to be having. Yeah?

Traci Thomas 4:22

I mean, I think it does exactly that. One of the reasons that I wanted to have you on this month is, obviously, there's this election coming up, not just a little one, but, yeah, just a small little thing, like just a few things are on the ballot. I don't know, but so on this show, we've sort of focused the last three weeks on election issues. And I, you know, there's so many, right? And I was like, I'm not sure what what I wanted to do. So I've been reading a lot of books that are sort of in it, and as soon as I started your book, I was like, okay, Jessica has to come on the show, because, like, this is exactly the thing. And so my question for you is, like you mentioned early in the book, you know, there's like, are you preaching to the choir? And. You say, No, I'm not preaching to the choir. I'm arming the choir. And I want to know if you can talk a little bit about this idea of, like, echo chamber, and how people are sort of use that pejoratively, and why you think it's actually powerful to sort of speak in an echo chamber. Yeah,

Jessica Valenti 5:15

no. I mean, listen, that's my entire job. And this is something I think about a lot as an opinion writer, or someone who's been, you know, writing columns and feminist books for a really long time, I'm really well aware that there's not going to be like some magical moment with a conservative who reads a column of mine, who reads my book, and they change their mind automatically, right? Sometimes it happens. It you know, it can right? But that's not really what tends to happen. What tends to happen is that someone who is already on board reads something I've written, and it articulates for them. It gives them the language that they need to go out and to change that person's mind, that uncle, that father in law, that roommate, whoever it is, because that's how people's minds get changed, right? It's through their personal connections, through their family, through their friends, through those sort of ongoing conversations. And so that is who I am trying to reach. I am trying to arm the choir and give them everything that they need so that they can go out and change people's hearts and minds. And so to me, it's really incredibly important. And the other thing is, especially in a moment like this one, I think, is having that commiseration and feeling like you're not alone in this, you know? I think it's really easy when you're reading these horror stories, right, to feel, am I crazy? Am I the only one who is so furious about this, or am I the only one who sees what's happening? And I hear this from readers all the time, and so I think to channel some of that anger, to just be able to be in community with people who are feeling the same way that you do, is incredibly important, incredibly powerful, and helps people care about this issue another day. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 7:03

we were going to talk about this later, but since you brought it up, do you find that there's any like, particularly effective strategies for talking about this, talking about abortion with your conservative uncle, or your anti choice mom or whatever, like, what actually works?

Jessica Valenti 7:22

Yeah, I think the thing I say most is ask questions, right? I think that we it's so easy to go into this defensive mode where you're like, that's not right, that's totally wrong. What are you talking about? That's horrible. And of course, that immediately shuts people down. And of course, I want to preface this by saying, you know, I don't think that we should talk to brick walls, right. Like I do believe that your activist energy is a precious resource and that you should use it carefully. But of course, there are people who we care about and there's people whose minds that we do want to change, or who we think are reachable. And so I think when someone says something to you that just seems totally out of pocket. Like, ridiculous about abortion, the ability to say, Huh? What makes you say that? Like, where did you hear that? Like, tell me more about that and making people feel heard. And oftentimes, you'll the entry point for conversation for all of these facts and stats and arguments, hopefully that you've read in my book or at the newsletter, you'll find an entry point for that. And I also often find there's so much misinformation, there's so much misinformation, that the ability to combat that misinformation and disinformation and tell people the truth is really powerful. And I think the other thing that really works is personal stories, is sharing personal stories, right? Everyone? Renee braci Sherman, who's an amazing writer you know, has said many times, everyone loves someone who's had an abortion, right? Like we all know someone who's had an abortion, and the ability to talk about those personal stories, talk about, like, the real lives behind this issue that works. Like there is a reason that Republican politicians anti abortion groups are so obsessed with talking about abortion, you know, in terms of six weeks versus 12 weeks versus 20 weeks, or they want people to forget the real lives behind these policies. And I think bringing it back to those real lives as much as possible is, is what works. And I

Traci Thomas 9:26

think, I think, I mean, you talk about this in the book, but I think that's what's so, sort of, like me, like nefarious about the criminalization of abortion, is it's like, well, I would love to tell you my story about abortion, but I live in Texas, and, like, I don't want to have someone be able to call and have me arrested, and it's so it makes it so that one of the most powerful tools, it becomes questioned. And I think, like, that is very scary. It's

Jessica Valenti 9:55

so important to talk about, and I'm so glad that you brought it up, because. That is a huge strategy, right? Like that. Chilling effect is it's a huge part of the strategy in anti abortion states, where you're making people too afraid to go to each other for support, to to help each other, to have these conversations. And that's one of the things that makes me so frustrated about anti abortion groups and anti abortion, politicians calling themselves like the party of family values, or saying that they care about family and community, when you are breaking communities up, you are incentivizing people turning each other in, like, family members turning each other in like there could not be anything less family values than that. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 10:39

you talked about misinformation a little bit. And one of the things that I still don't fully understand, and I would love for you to explain, because I know that I'm not alone in this, which is why this talking point that we keep seeing JD Vance and Donald Trump do about, we want to give it to the states to choose. Why is that? Like, particularly bad? I think, like literally yesterday, we were at a five year old's birthday party, and one of the other kids grandmas was telling my husband, who's an OB, GYN, how she thinks states should choose and and my husband was like this. He's like, I just got about the craziest conversation with this old anti abortion lady. Was like, what happened? And he's like, she keeps talking about states right, states rights. And so I want you to explain for me, but also for everyone else, why it's not a state's right issue, or why it's dangerous if it becomes one, sure.

Jessica Valenti 11:32

I mean, from an ethical, moral point of view, right? Like we're talking about people's freedom and bodily integrity, like this, this should shift from state to state. Like your ability to access healthcare should not change depending on your geographic location. That is absurd. You know, ridiculous. The other thing that I think is so telling about this talking point, there's a reason that they are using this idea of back to the States or the will of the people, the votes of the people. They are using language like that because they know that Americans overwhelmingly want abortion to be legal, right. We are taught abortion bans are laws that a small group of extremist legislators are passing against the wishes of the vast majority of voters, and they do not want people to remember that, and so that is why they use language that makes it sound like people have a choice, like you are going to get to decide. They are giving a false illusion of control and choice, which is especially important for Republican women and white women voters who are leaning Republican, they want to believe that this won't impact them, that they will have a choice, right? The truth is that you don't even this idea of we're giving it back to the States states are voting. What they don't like to mention is that in every single state where abortion has been on the ballot, Republicans have done every single thing they possibly can to keep that issue off the ballot. They do not want voters to have a direct say on this issue, because they know that when voters have a direct say, abortion rights wins, and that's why you're seeing, you know, Ohio, they won the lead up to that was absurd. They had, you know, they were using the power of the state to influence this campaign, where they had the Secretary of State writing bias ballot summaries. In Missouri, they were sending out text messages warning people not to sign a pro choice petition because activists were trying to steal your identity, like they're pulling out all of these really bananas sort of dirty tricks to stop people from from having a say. And then, of course, that doesn't even get into gerrymandering, voter suppression, right? The fact that in a lot of these states, people just do not have a say at all, that their legislators are not representing them, right? And so it just again, is giving this false illusion of choice where there is none like abortion really, truly is an issue that voters have moved past. Voters want abortion to be legal. Yeah? Period,

Traci Thomas 14:09

yeah period. It's

Jessica Valenti 14:10

done like, you know, I think there's this. I think anti abortion groups and politicians really, really want to make it seem like this is an issue the country is polarized over. They're not this is not an issue. The country is split on people want abortion to be legal. And I think the more that we talk about that too, the more helpful it is.

Traci Thomas 14:29

Yeah, I mean, why do you feel that the left, the Democrats, who people who are pro, you know, abortion rights. Why are they ceding that point? Why are they taking that for granted? It just to me, it. I know that we always talk about, like, how Democrats always fumble the bag and like, they can, you know, they can fuck up just about anything. But this, to me, is so it's baffling. And I'm sure you feel the same way, because you spend all day thinking about this, but like, Why can't, why can't they get the messaging on this right? Not only do people want it, it's also like a net positive for all Americans, right? Like, it's a good thing, as you say in the book. I think the first or second chapter is, like, abortion is good. Why can't they talk about it? Why can't they even, even if they don't want to go that far and say abortion is good, fine, I get it, whatever. Yeah, be a Puritan. But like, why can't they say abortion is pop like, women's health care is popular and we support the will of the people. Like, I just it. I'm like, shaking because it makes me so what

Jessica Valenti 15:41

is angry, too, what

Traci Thomas 15:42

the fight is this? I wish

Jessica Valenti 15:43

I could answer that question about that specifically about, like the votes, and this is an issue that voters support. I don't know, because to me, that is such a powerful message to remind voters they are doing this against your will. They are passing these laws that no one wants. They know. They know in these states that voters want abortion to be legal, and they're passing these laws anyway. I don't know what you know, messaging firm is telling Democrats, you know, listen, their messaging has gotten better. I will say that right, like they have gotten better on this issue, it used to be that the only thing they said about abortion was safe, legal and rare. They were afraid to use the word abortion, they just said choice, right? And so we have made a lot of progress. We have, but not enough. I really do wish that there was that conversation in particular. I will say one thing that does give me hope, though, when I wrote about this a little bit in the newsletter, is the way that Kamala Harris has started to talk about abortion as it relates to the deaths of candy Miller and Amber Nicole Thurman in Georgia. And, you know, she gave a speech in Georgia where she talked about abortion as a normal part of someone's life, something normal that they chose right like when politicians talk about abortion, pro choice politicians, it is often the most tragic circumstances, the most tragic stories, right? Like they are often talking about wanted pregnancies gone wrong, people who are sexually assaulted, who can't get care. She talked about Amber Nicole Thurman, you know, I don't want to butcher exactly what she said, but she was talking about, you know, this is a woman. She had her life planned out. She had her son, she was going to nursing school, she had just gotten this apartment, she had a plan for her life, and it was her plan. And so when she got pregnant, she decided to have an abortion, like she had made it a part of like this was not part of her plan, and that's fine. It's fine to have an abortion, not because, you know, some horrible thing happened, but because it wasn't what you wanted for your life. And to me, that's one of the most powerful things that we can be talking about. Because this isn't for, you know, 95% of people of abortions. This isn't a wanted pregnancy gone wrong. This isn't, you know, something that happened because of a sexual attack. It's because you didn't want to be pregnant. And that is just as moral and good and important as any other abortion. And they want to take it's like they're not just taking our health care away, they're taking our right to determine the course of our own lives away. And what could be more important than that? Yeah,

Traci Thomas 18:17

and you talk about, there's no such thing as compromise around abortion, and you talk about sort of like these, a thing that the right uses is like, oh, there's an exception for this. But you talk about how there's really no exceptions. Can you explain that a little bit to folks? Because I don't. I think there are people who are pro choice, but feel that a person who gets an abortion for any reason that isn't an extreme or dire circumstance is somehow morally compromised. So I'd love to hear you talk a little bit about why you don't think there's such thing as compromise around abortion, and what is actually happening with these quote, unquote exceptions, and why they aren't real sure.

Jessica Valenti 19:01

I mean, again, it gets back to the idea of, you're talking about someone's freedom, bodily integrity, bodily autonomy, ability to choose their own life. There cannot be compromise. You know, there just can't be compromised on that. And the minute you start to legislate pregnancy and bodies and and health, you are getting into extraordinarily dangerous territory, as we have seen, and no amount of exceptions can can change that. The truth, and I know that you know this, your husband's an OB GYN pregnancy is far too complicated to legislate. There are 1,000,001 things that can go wrong. And in this country, especially where pregnancy is dangerous, pregnancy can be deadly, you cannot morally, ethically, ask someone to take on that risk against their will, right? Like, I don't think we talk enough about this. Is not like. Oh, abortion is legal. You are forcing people to carry a pregnancy, to risk their health and lives against their will. That, to me, is just extraordinary, and with exceptions, in particular, this idea, you know, Republicans have really focused on this a lot in the last few months, because they think it's a way to, sort of, like soften their image with voters. But exceptions don't work. Exceptions are deliberately crafted not to be used, right? Like when this is not something where politicians got in a room and they're like, Okay, how can we make sure that people who are raped or people who are victims of incest can have access to care? They got in a room and said, How can we make it as difficult as possible for these people to get care right? Like there's a reason that in so many states, rape exceptions, for example, require a police report. It's because they know that victims don't report to nobody. So it's like they took the things that that they knew about victims and weaponized that, and it just makes it so, so incredibly cruel. And one of the things I write about in the book, I think that one of one of the cruelest exceptions are the so called exceptions for Fatal fetal abnormalities, right? Yeah, no. Americans don't want to force people to carry doomed pregnancies to term. That is obscene. It is obscene, but they're writing these laws to do just that right, like when they do have exceptions and they often don't right, like the so called compromise 15 week abortion ban that Republicans are pushing on a national level that would force women to carry June pregnancies to term. Right in the states that do have an exception, they write it in such a way that, again, it's impossible to use. So they'll say things like, you can only get it if it is uniformly diagnosable. There's hardly anything that's uniformly diagnosable, right? Or they will deliberately not define or leave vague what constitutes a fatal abnormality is something fatal if a newborn would live for a few days, a few hours, or do they need to die immediately upon birth? Right? Right? They and again, that is all deliberate. They are doing that so that people cannot access care, right? And we've seen the consequences of that. We've seen in Texas, you know, someone like Samantha Castellano vomiting on the sand while talking about being forced to give birth to a baby that was never going to live, being forced to watch her daughter die. Obscene is just the word that, like, just rolls through my mind multiple times a day. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 22:39

and another point that you make in the book, and this is, I think one of the like through lines of this podcast in the last few years has been a lot about abolition. And one of the things you talk about in this book is pregnancy as punishment. That sort of the thing that is consistent is that there's this desire to punish women. I think in some cases it's very clear what for, for having unprotected sex, for not for their plan failing. But what do you think that it's for? Like, why are we punishing women who have babies, like you mentioned, a child who it never their head never forms. Like, why should that woman like, What's the punishment? Isn't the punishment already for her, that she has to know that her child is never going to be, like, able to be alive. Like, I don't understand, I guess that part of it, I understand that, like, don't have sex girls, but I don't understand like, dear married woman who has three children, like, you have to suffer.

Jessica Valenti 23:39

I mean, I think a lot of those women, I think the anti abortion movement sees them as collateral damage, that they are willing to let those people suffer in order to win politically, in order to win a right. And that's something I write about when it comes to like the forced C sections, for example, right where I know which is so

Traci Thomas 24:01

fucking insane fucking surgery. Are you crazy? Like, yeah,

Jessica Valenti 24:08

they're talking about, like, at 1415, weeks, where it's like, there's not going to be any, there's no fetal survival, right, that early. Like it's solely, solely to be able to push this talking point that abortion is never necessary to save someone's health or life, they want to be able to say, No, abortion is never necessary to save someone's health or life. You can just give them a C section. You can just force them to go into vaginal labor, and so they're willing to torture women.

Traci Thomas 24:36

Yeah, but isn't that aborting a pregnancy still, like, I know it's a different it's not a DNC or it's not a pill, but like, you're still terminating a pregnancy when you deliver a baby at 14 weeks because they're no longer pregnant, and the baby's not, like, I don't so it's just, it's just performance art,

Jessica Valenti 24:57

it's just performance art, and that's why, you know, they've. Come up with these terms. That's the reason I have, like, a glossary at the end of the book. They've come up with these terms, like maternal fetal separation. They are just so desperate, so desperate to make it appear as if abortion is not healthcare. Abortion is never necessary to save someone's health or life, even though, yeah, it's you know that that pregnancy is going to end. And what is so extraordinarily cruel about this is that they will talk about, well, we want to do that to preserve dignity for the fetus. What about this person's dignity? What like forcing someone to a major abdominal surgery rather than a 10 minute procedure, which is medically standard. There is no such thing as our dignity in these circumstances, right? And that's where they give away the game, like really and truly, where you are no longer seen as a person, not like, ethically, constitutionally, any of it,

Traci Thomas 26:00

right? And, and you talk about this in the book as well, kind of on this punishment or like, carceral side of this is like, there are situations where not only are people's families and friends turning them in, but also, like, nurses and doctors. And we've talked about this a lot on this podcast, actually, because it's really common that, you know, in schools, teachers become the police. In hospitals, doctors and nurses become the police. But the there's a flip side of that, which is that doctors and nurses are not able to get the training, to have the to be able to provide the care that they need. Like for an OB GYN, you have to know how to perform an abortion. That is standard of trading like, and so in these states now, doctors, they're having to send residents to other states to be able like, it's just,

Jessica Valenti 26:51

yeah, they're sending them to other states. They're or they're making them learn on models like, Who do you want if you have a miscarriage and you need a miscarriage if you need an abortion, who do you want doing that? Do you want someone who learned on a model, right? Do you want someone who had to travel to another state and sleep on a hotel room floor because they're paying for it themselves, right? And learned with someone who's not their regular teacher? Right? Or do you want someone who knows how to do this like the back of their hand, because they've been adequately professionally trained? Right? That it's like, it's a whole other ripple effect that we don't talk about enough, that it's not just, you know, the suffering on the ground, the lack of healthcare. We're talking about devastating, ruining a new generation of reproductive healthcare providers, losing historical knowledge. It's so incredibly dangerous. And there's a reason why we're seeing OBGYN leave. Anti abortion states, they're just leaving. You know, Idaho lost 25% of its OB gyns, I think half of its maternal fetal, fetal medicine specialists. And in turn, of course, maternity wards are closing, which in turn, of course, leads to increased maternal health deserts, which is killing people. And what is so distressing? I mean, there's a lot distressing about it, but when someone dies because of a maternal health desert, right? That's not going to be counted as a death because of an abortion ban, but it is, but it is if an abortion ban has driven all of the OBGYN out of a state, and therefore now people have to travel two hours to go give birth, and they die as a result of that. That is on anti abortion politicians hands,

Traci Thomas 28:27

right, right, and again. Another added thing is that doctors who are performing standard health care abortions are also being attacked and arrested and like so it's like, why would if you're just a regular, everyday doctor? Let me put it this way, I would tell Mr. Stacks that we are leaving and you can practice somewhere else. That's what I would say, as the wife of a physician, like, Oh, you're gonna go to jail over this. Like, we've got, we've got our own family. Like, no, no. Why would you stay? Like to be a hero, I guess, which, thank you for people who are staying and doing it, but like, I'm selfish and I don't want my husband in jail for doing his everyday job.

Jessica Valenti 29:09

It's really there is. There's been a few studies about there is a really awful mental health crisis among OB gyns because of these laws, right? Like the moral distress that they are under, where they do have to choose, do I leave or do I do I stay to try to help as many patients as I can? Am I abandoning my patients? You know, but a lot of reproductive health care providers are of reproductive age themselves. They have their own families. They have young children right to ask them to put their families in danger, to maybe have to leave their child because they go to jail. It is an impossible situation that they are putting these, these doctors and nurses and healthcare providers in.

Traci Thomas 29:57

Yeah, I can even see how, like in the moment. Even if you're not thinking about like, repercussions, knowing that there's an easy solution, and like, feeling like your hands are tied is probably like, that's probably really hard mentally too, being like, I could literally do this 10 minute thing, but instead, I have to sit here and watch you bleed until you've bled enough to be in a situation where I can save your life. But then, like, also that means I have to call in two other doctors and three other nurses and the anesthesiologist, and get blood and like all that, like I can imagine, like, careful,

Jessica Valenti 30:27

careful records and make sure I'm legally covered. Do I need to go to the hospital lawyer to to Okay? This it is and that, you know, in a lot of these states, they can't even talk about it, right? Like it's not just that they can't perform the procedure. They can't tell someone where to get an abortion somewhere else. Oh, I

Traci Thomas 30:48

see, yeah. And that is, you know, there

Jessica Valenti 30:51

have been cases where, you know women, I've spoken to women who left Texas to go to New Mexico for care, and the Texas doctors felt like they couldn't legally send their medical records to New Mexico, right? And so it puts people in danger in all sorts of of ways.

Traci Thomas 31:09

Isn't it crazy that we can't just have access to our own medical records like it's my fucking record. Why do I need you to send it, hand it to me and I will like, it's my like, that's even a whole crazy part of the puzzle. Let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. Okay, we are back. I want to talk a little this is sort of a question that I've had, that you talk about in the book, but I would love it explained more for me and everyone else is, like, a lot of I've heard a lot of people talking about how, like, the banning of abortion is, like the first step, but then it's going to be birth control, and then it's going to be IVF, and I can sort of make sense of how birth control and abortion are connected. The IVF part doesn't make sense to me as much.

Jessica Valenti 31:56

Can you help? Yeah, for sure. So I mean, really, the only way it starts to make sense to people, I think, is when you understand that this was never really about abortion, and it's not really about the connection to abortion as much as it is about control over over women's bodies in particular. And this like desperation to reinforce traditional gender roles, and of course, that the people who are dictating anti abortion policy. You're talking about a very small group of people, small, powerful group of people that are very religious, right life begins at conception, people, and for

Traci Thomas 32:33

them, is it very religious, or is it specifically Christian?

Jessica Valenti 32:37

Oh, it's, yeah, it's evangelical Christian, excuse me, yeah,

Traci Thomas 32:39

but it's not like, it's not like really religious Jewish people or really religious people. It's really, just really religious Christians. Yeah, it

Jessica Valenti 32:46

is. It is really religious Christians, very powerful, very well moneyed Christians who believe that we need to have a nation of Christians, right? Like, it is. Like, it there. There are all of these connections to, you know, white nationalism, like the birth rate, like white birth rate, there's, like, a replacement theory, or whatever placement theory. It's all connected. But with IVF, what they really, I mean, they won't say this, but they object to the whole thing. They object to like. They think it's playing God. They they don't like any of it the way that they connect it to abortion. And what they'll say is that they don't want embryos to be destroyed. Now, in in IVF, you are creating lots and lots of embryos because you don't know what's going to take you don't know what is going to have a chromosomal a chromosomal abnormality. And so there will be a lot of embryos discarded in the IVF process. They really don't want that to happen and but they also know that IVF is incredibly popular, and so what they've sort of done now is say, oh no no, we're pro IVF. We're pro family. We just want to use health and safety standards. That's sort of the new language they're using. We just want to have health and safety standards. What that actually means is they want to track the number of embryos. They want to stop people from discarding embryos. They want to take ownership of those embryos, like it's really, really chilling stuff. And so for them, IVF is, is absolutely part of it. And as you said, with birth control, this is not like some future attack. This is already happening. Like they have spent the last decade, uh, legally redefining certain kinds of birth control as abortion, right? Like they say that emergency contraception is abortion. IUDs are abortions. And so when, and that's really beneficial to Republican politicians, because they can say, No, I'm not banning birth control, I'm just banning abortion. Hint, hint, like, like, you know, it's like the Wink, wink, nudge, nudge thing, right? Where? Because they're defining IUDs and emergency contraception as abortion, they can sort of cross their fingers behind their back and say, I'm just banning abortion. Yeah.

Traci Thomas 35:00

Okay, follow up question to this on the like, white national side of this, in your book, in almost everything I've read about abortion, what I've read is that this, all dis these bans, disproportionately affect black and brown women. So why do white nationalists want to ban abortion if these are the babies that are being born, right? Like that part doesn't make sense to me, because white women are wealthy. White women are easiest to get abortions, even when they're banned. Poorer white women still kind of come in a little bit ahead of black and brown women and poor women of color. So I'm just trying to figure out, like you're just gonna end up with more babies to replace you, or whatever your whole like bullshit is, yeah. So

Jessica Valenti 35:51

it's two things. One is the criminalization piece, right? Okay, we love, we love to criminalize. Of course, guess who gets? Guess who gets arrested when it comes to abortion, miscarriage, stillbirth, and of course, like, that's what we're seeing, like they are too smart to arrest someone for breaking an abortion ban. They are arresting people for, you know, Brittany Watson, Ohio, arrested for abuse of a corpse, for flushing her miscarriage. Disgusting. Yeah, you know, arresting a woman in South Carolina for her pregnancy ending, and she didn't like behave correctly, and so now she's arrested for murder. And you you are talking about overwhelmingly low income women, black women in particular, like women of color, but black women in particular, that they are going after. And so it is very much about arresting people like, that's right, the punishment. That's the punishment part. And then the other thing that they have going on is this pipeline to Christian evangelical adoption agencies, right? Yeah, it's about taking those babies. And I sound like such a conspiracy theorist when I say that, but I I'm with you. I'm following it really, really is true. So you have, like, and the New York Times actually did, like, a really terrific piece on maternity homes, right? Like, their next big thing is they're taking all this money for crisis pregnancy centers, for what they're saying is like women and families, and they're putting it into like these old school maternity homes, where you are targeting vulnerable people who have no other place to go, who don't have homes, who are maybe young who maybe have substance abuse problems. You're saying, no worries, we have a place to stay for you. But by the way, you're going to need to hand in your phone, because we lock up the phones at night just to be safe. And also, we're going to put a tracking app on your phone. And also you can't have visitors. And also you need to go to church. And if you want baby clothes or diapers, you're going to need to earn that by going to Bible study. I mean, it's just so twisted. And all of those maternity homes have existing relationships with evangelical adoption agencies, and so they can pressure those women to giving up those those babies, sometimes using criminal criminalization as a way to intervene, to get those babies, put them in good Christian homes. And then all of a sudden, you have, you know, it's again, sometimes I feel like I sound crazy when I'm saying this, but it actually really that is what's happening. Like, it literally is what's happening.

Traci Thomas 38:14

Okay, this leads me to such an important question, which is, how the fuck are you do you stay sane doing this shit? Like, how do you do this every day? Read these stories and write about this. And like, don't you want to just, like, drink a margarita at a beach? And like, sleep.

Jessica Valenti 38:31

I do. Sleep is, like, my number one dream. You know, people ask me this question a lot, and it's like, I'm not doing well. Like, I don't think anyone who does this work is doing terrific, right? Like, it's really hard. It really sucks, but I sort of feel like the alternative would be worse. I cannot imagine, like, knowing what I know and having, like, the skills that I do and not doing something. I feel like this is absolutely like, what is required in this moment. And so you you do it. The thing that does make it a lot easier, though, is the community. Like there is this incredible community of people who care about this issue, who are working on this issue every day, people who want to help, people who want to do something. And so it does make you feel not alone in that, you know, bad mental health space. I do try to remember, though, and I think it's important for anyone who cares about this issue to remember that this is a marathon and not a sprint, right? Like this is not going to be something that is changed in November no matter what happens. It's not something that's going to be changed in the next couple of years. It's going to take years. It's going to take a long time to set this right. And you know, whatever we can do to take care of ourselves in the meantime, so that we have the, you know, that longevity and the the ability to keep going is incredibly important.

Traci Thomas 39:54

And are there any things that you do like, just to kind of help yourself? Like, because. You know, it is a marathon and not a sprint. Like, any tips or tools that you use, like hot chocolate or long runs or getting your nails done or, like, Are there any of those kind of things that help you? Yeah, I

Jessica Valenti 40:12

mean, the thing I'm trying to my sort of commitment to myself lately, is to just do one normal person thing a day, right? Like, and just need to do one normal thing a day, like, cook dinner. I love to cook. I haven't been cooking a lot lately because of everything, you know, let me cook dinner. Let me go out and get breakfast with my daughter. Like, just, if I can have one thing that feels like real and tangible and like good and part of my life every day that I can then I can do it okay,

Traci Thomas 40:43

like that. I wrote a note when I was reading the book, and now I can't remember what page I was, what page sparked it is, but I wrote, are you hopeful? But then by the end of the book, I was like, I don't know why I wrote that question down, because I don't know that I felt like the book was particularly hopeful by the end. And so I guess my question is, there is this version of november 5, 2024 where Kamala Harris is elected, the Democrats win all the houses in the House and the Senate, and it's a super majority on january 21 they sign a law that says abortion legal until viability at 24 weeks. Let's say I don't even know what viability is anymore. It's probably closer. It's not a real Yeah, it's not like it's not a real thing. But it's probably, anyways, whatever approximately,

Jessica Valenti 41:41

is it fixed? No, not, if there's not a pass restriction, yeah. To me, Roe was never enough. People were getting denied care under Roe, right? And we, and we've seen this in the horror stories that have come out after Roe was overturned, like the people who have been impacted. I don't want to say the most, but the horror stories that we are hearing are generally from people who are later on in their pregnancies, who needed care. Later in their pregnancies, that is when things tend to go wrong.

Traci Thomas 42:10

How late in the pregnancies is this that you're talking about? Approximately

Jessica Valenti 42:15

that the horror stories we've heard, yeah, yeah, anywhere from 20 plus weeks, right? I could, I mean, but it can be anytime. But it gets back to something that I was saying earlier, where, like, this is about freedom, bodily integrity, bodily autonomy. You don't stop being a person when you're 24 weeks pregnant, right? Like, you don't stop being like an ethical, moral, constitutional, legal person when you are 24 weeks pregnant. And if we have a law that says that, that is very concerning to me, especially because viability is not a real medical standard, right? And because if you want to talk about like, what voters want, 81% of Americans don't want government interference or regulation of abortion at all, like zero. Yeah, right. And so to me, the only, the only way this is done is if there is zero government intrusion into pregnancy and abortion, that there are no no one is looking no one's investigating your stillbirth, no one's investigating your miscarriage. No one's saying, Are you sick enough at 24 or 25 weeks, or 30 weeks, or 35 weeks to get the care that you need, that this is never something that you have to worry about a politician being involved in, that this that we trust people who are pregnant to make the best decisions for themselves, that we trust the doctors that they're working with to advise them and to help them like that is when this is done to me. Okay, okay.

Traci Thomas 43:45

And another talking point that we, that I've heard, is like, Kamala Harris would allow abortion at at nine months or whatever. Is that a thing? No.

Jessica Valenti 43:57

I mean, no, it's not right. Like, what

Traci Thomas 43:59

is the latest that people get an abortion, because at a certain point the child is it does become like a like, you can have a baby at 30 weeks, like, spontaneously. So, like, what, what is your delivery

Jessica Valenti 44:12

at that point? Right? Like your delivery. I mean, I always like to preface this by saying like, by trying to make people understand, like, what it means to get a third trimester abortion. To get a third trimester abortion, there are, I think there's under five clinics in the whole country that do that. Yeah, you are talking about a multi day, painful, invasive, very difficult procedure. You are talking about something that can cost 10,000 $20,000 right? Yeah, insurance is largely not covering this. This is not something that someone opts into because they just decided they didn't want to be pregnant, like when you weren't getting an abortion at that stage, when you were going through this sort of thing, traveling to another state, getting a multi day procedure, spending, you know, all of this money. Right? It is because something has gone terribly, terribly wrong. And then, of course, for people where there's no tragic circumstance, they are there because of the hurdles that Republicans put in place. They are there because they wanted to get care earlier, but there was a waiting period, or they couldn't afford it because of the Hyde Amendment, because, you know, like, right? So there's all of these hurdles and and deliberate hurdles that Republicans have put in place that create the need for abortions later in pregnancy. And then the other thing that I hate to talk about, because it's horrible, but it's true, is that the proportion, like the the demographic that is most likely to have abortions after 24 weeks are children under 14. And so you're talking about baby like, to me, that's a baby, right? Because my kids 14, yeah, you're talking about like, kids who are disproportionately victims of sexual violence, who are more likely to not know anything about their bodies, who do not don't have the ability, they don't have a credit card, they don't have their own health insurance, they don't have the ability to go get care, right? So that, and that is part of the reason I say there cannot be any government interference, because if there's no government interference, and people can just make these decisions, then you don't have some 13 year old girl, you know, who doesn't know anything about her body, who all of a sudden figure figures out she's pregnant at 25 weeks, and then needs to fucking travel like, you know, halfway across the country. It's, it's just absurd. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 46:35

I want people to read the book, and I want, I want them to pay a special attention to the chapter about children being the canaries in the coal mine. I thought that that chapter was just like you talked about the beginning, like hoping that you reach someone, and it like changes the way they are thinking about that was it for me, just like thinking about, what are we doing to these kids, these poor kids who, like, just fucking are being pawns and this whole thing. So I don't want to give too much way about it, but get the book. If you only read one chapter, which read the whole book, it's very short, but if you only read one, read that one and then come talk to me about it, because I want to talk to people about it. Is there anything I know you say this at the very beginning, you could write like, 10 books on this. But is there any one thing that's not in the book that you wish could have been Ooh,

Jessica Valenti 47:19

i Yeah. I Yeah. I think that I would have loved to have more on crisis pregnancy centers and maternity homes and that and that and that connection to the evangelical movement. There is so much there. There's like, there's so much there, there there's so many connections. There's so much like, back door secret politicking that's happening. I would love to write like a whole separate book on that.

Traci Thomas 47:45

I would read it. I would read it excellent. I want to talk about your process quickly. You write this abortion every day, sub stack, so you are writing all the time, but you also wrote this book. Do you? Does it differ how you approach writing the book versus how you write the sub stack? Like where you are, what kind of music, if you have any snacks and beverages rituals, like, how do you differentiate these kind of two different projects?

Jessica Valenti 48:09

It is very much the same in terms of, like, where I am, like what I'm doing. I will say I'm a very, like unhealthy writer. Like, I am not like a wake up in the morning and write my 500 words kind of bitch like, that's not me. I might have my diet coke in one hand and literally a bag of mini marshmallows in the other.

Traci Thomas 48:31

Yes, I love this. For us, it's the only it's the only way of what kind

of diet coke is? It a candy bottle and mini glass bottle. The

Jessica Valenti 48:40

glass bottle is glass bottle.

Traci Thomas 48:42

Okay, that's fancy as fuck. Jessica, my

Jessica Valenti 48:46

Bodega has them. Wait. The Bodega from my house has them. And to me, you can't go back once you have the glass bottle. So like that, to me, is elite. That's perfect. Um, anything to like make me feel comfortable, and like, relatively okay in that okay in that moment. But, you know, I live in a small Brooklyn apartment. My husband works from home. I have a 14 year old kid, and so I am really, like, on the couch, like, with a laptop stand, just doing what I have to do. It's, it's not pretty, but it works,

Traci Thomas 49:22

okay. And that's where you write everything, book and sub stack, book

Jessica Valenti 49:26

and sub sack. There was for the book. I did take a little bit of time to go upstate to upstate New York, and I stayed in, like, my parents house so that I could, like, get a little bit of distance and space. I took a few weeks at the end to be able to do that, because I did meet a little bit a little bit more. But the work of the newsletter is so similar to the work of the book. And, you know, I wouldn't have been able to do the book without the newsletter, and it informed it incredibly so. But for the book, I was trying to figure out how to. Capture this particular moment in time, right? Like, the thing about the newsletter is it's ephemeral, like you have it in your inbox and then it's out. And so I just wanted to to write something that was really like, Okay, this is the the compilation. This is exactly what's happening. This is the most important stuff for you to know. And obviously, because things are changing so quickly when it comes to abortion rights and the news. I tried to be as clear as I could that like this case that I write about, like may be different by the time you pick up this book, but I tried to pick stories and cases that told that bigger, broader strategy story and that that would be evergreen and stand the test of time a little bit better.

Traci Thomas 50:41

Is that hard for you? Though, even knowing, just because you do a newsletter, which, like, you can update, hey, last week I said this. Now it's this, but, like, with a book, it's like, maybe you have another edition, but like, do you have? Did you have, like, stress about it?

Jessica Valenti 50:55

It was brutal when I had to, when I recorded the audio book, and, you know, it's too late now, like, it's all, it's all in and seeing, like, Oh, fuck. Like, that changed. Or like, I wish I would have written this that way. There was, there was something that happened that would be perfect in that chapter, that is hard, that is absolutely, really, really, really challenging. But I'm just trying to, like, file it away and and keep it for next time. But, like, there is there just isn't. The newsletter is so great in in so many ways, but there isn't anything like a book like it is so important to have this, you know, like, oftentimes, physical piece of history. It is it just, I can see that it makes a difference in terms of the way that people talk about this issue and the way that they share with the people in their lives. And that, to me, is everything,

Traci Thomas 51:52

and also, like as a person who reads newsletters, and also unfortunately, writes one, I skim a newsletter, I read a newsletter really different than I read a book. Like if I read a book, I'm reading a book. If I read a newsletter, I'm reading, like some paragraphs, I'm jumping and trying to find it. Maybe I'm even doing a control fine on your particular thing. So I do feel like there's like a seriousness to a book that I'm gonna consider the work in a different way. Are there any word, or is there a word that you can never spell correctly on the first try.

Jessica Valenti 52:22

Oh, oh, my God. There's probably, there's probably a few, it's not constitutional. There was one recently that I absolutely couldn't get shit. Now I'm forgetting. There's a lot I have a lot of, like, a lot of, there's like, a lot of legal work. Okay, that'll come up that. I'm like, Oh, wait, it'll, it'll always have to do a little auto correct for me. Thank God for for auto correct. I'm getting better.

Traci Thomas 52:50

So bad that my auto correct is just like, this is just wrong. And I don't have a, I don't have a helpful word for you. I just have a red line. Like, that's it. Try again. Sorry.

Jessica Valenti 53:01

Like, what is that? What are you saying?

Traci Thomas 53:05

I feel like I'm like, in a fight with my spell check, because I just will put, like, multiple letters, and then they'll give me a red line, and I'll be like, Okay, we'll fix it. And then they're like, sorry. They're like, We quit. That's hilarious. Let's talk a little bit about some books that are in conversation with your book. I know that you've given us this, like, Great bibliography and like resources, but if you could just shout out a few books that you think are particularly helpful. I know in the book, you talk about the turn away study, which is, like, the next thing I want to read that's, like, the next book about abortion on my reading list. I it's been on my list for a long time, but then when you said it in your book, I was like, okay, just go get it. But what else would you maybe suggest to folks?

Jessica Valenti 53:49

So there's a new book, actually, that came out the same exact day that my book did, called liberating abortion by Renee braci Sherman. That is excellent, amazing. It focuses, sort of like, on the history of abortion rights and reproductive justice and the black women who built that movement. And like, where it is now. It's really like, I can't recommend it enough. It's great. There's also a book called A Handbook for post row America. I think it might be called the new handbook for post row America right now by a woman named Robin Marty who works at a reproductive health care clinic in Alabama. That is like a super useful tool to have that I think is great. Killing the black body by Dorothy Roberts is amazing. I think Dorothy Roberts just wanted MacArthur. She did. She did. Yeah, deservedly so

Traci Thomas 54:41

I was shocked she didn't have one. I was like, Wait, right? Like, really? I was like, I know, maybe it's a different Dorothy Roberts. And then I clicked, and I was like, Nope, that's the same one. Yeah,

Jessica Valenti 54:52

no, there's so many great ones. You know, Mary Zeigler is someone I read like she's a law professor who's really. Great. Like, I feel like, what I like about abortion rights, what I like reading about abortion rights is that you can go like, full activist. You can like, read like the activists on the ground. You can read sort of like the denser, you know, legal theory stuff. And it's all important, the turnaway study, you know, read about people's lived realities, like what this actually means it's all important. It all makes a difference.

Traci Thomas 55:26

Last question for you, if you could have one person dead or alive read this book, who would you want it to be?

Jessica Valenti 55:33

Oh, my God, that's really interesting. Maybe my grandma? Maybe my grandma. My grandma is no longer here. She, you know, raised five kids without money, didn't have choices, didn't have a lot of options, didn't have a lot of choices. Had a really challenging life, but it was an amazing, strong person, and I would be really and she died before I was sort of old enough to have these conversations with her. And I would be really curious to know where she stands and what she thinks, and like, what she would think about what's happening now.

Traci Thomas 56:18

Yeah, it's a great answer. All right, everybody at home, you can get abortion wherever you get your books. It is out in the world. I listened to the audiobook. You did a really fantastic job. Oh, thanks. I really liked it. And so I can give it a stamp of approval for folks be sure to get your book read it. It is that you have time to arm yourselves to have these conversations before the election. But also, as Jessica mentioned, it's gonna be happening on November, 6 and seventh and eighth, and hopefully not too much longer after but you know what? I have a sense we're gonna be doing this. Your newsletter is gonna have a future, I think so. Get your copy and Jessica, thank you so much for doing this. Thank you for coming on the show. Gosh, thank you for having me and everyone else. We will see you in the stacks.

All right, y'all that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening, and thank you to my amazing guests, Jessica Valenti, I'd also like to say a huge thank you to Anahita Padmanabahn and Stacey Stein for helping to make this conversation possible. Don't forget the stacks book club pick for October is the nickel boys by Colson Whitehead, and we will be discussing that book on Wednesday, October 30 with Franklin Leonard. If you love this podcast and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/thestacks and join the stacks pack and check out my substack at tracithomas.substack.com. make sure you're subscribed to the stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, be sure to leave us a rating and a review for more from the stacks. Follow us on social media@thestackspod on Instagram, threads and Tiktok, and @thestackspod_ on Twitter, and you can check out our website at thestackspodcast.com.this episode of the stats was edited by Christian Dueñas, with production assistance from Megan Caballero. Our graphic designer is Robin McCreight, and our theme music is from Tagirijus. The Stacks is created and produced by me Traci Thomas.

]]>Ep. 342 Evangelizing Abortion Rights with Jessica ValentiEp. 341 Am I Supposed to Be Here with Jason De LeónStacks AssistantWed, 16 Oct 2024 07:00:00 +0000https://www.thestackspodcast.com/2024/10/16/ep-341-jason-de-leon65d2b7a49de6215855aa3aaa:66084694f1e135566828a41a:670cca4b15e3530fbb336bee

This week, we’re joined by anthropologist and author Jason De León to discuss his latest book, Soldiers and Kings: Survival and Hope in the World of Human Smuggling. We explore the ethical complexities of ethnography, the distinctions between human smuggling and trafficking, and Jason’s decision to place himself as a character in his work. Jason also shares how his experiences at the U.S.-Mexico border have shaped his approach to storytelling and what he believes could help address the ongoing humanitarian crisis.

The Stacks Book Club pick for October is The Nickel Boys by Colson Whitehead. We will discuss the book on October 30th with Franklin Leonard returning as our guest.

LISTEN NOW

Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Google Podcasts | Overcast | Stitcher | Transcript

  

Everything we talk about on today’s episode can be found below in the show notes and on Bookshop.org and Amazon.

To support The Stacks and find out more from this week’s sponsors, click here.

Connect with Jason: Instagram | Twitter | Website
Connect with The Stacks: Instagram | Twitter | Shop | Patreon | Goodreads | Substack | Subscribe

To contribute to The Stacks, join The Stacks Pack, and get exclusive perks, check out our Patreon page. If you prefer to support the show with a one time contribution go to paypal.me/thestackspod.

The Stacks participates in affiliate programs. We receive a small commission when products are purchased through links on this website.

TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Traci Thomas 0:00

Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Traci Thomas, and today I am thrilled to welcome Jason De León to the show. Jason is an anthropologist and professor at UCLA, best known for his work documenting the experiences of migrants crossing the US Mexico border. His new book, soldiers and kings survival and hope in the world of human smuggling is a finalist for the National Book Award. It offers an in depth look at human smuggling, focusing on the people involved in this dangerous underground network and the resilience and survival strategies they employ. Today, Jason and I talk about the difference between trafficking and smuggling, why he wanted to write a book that focuses on smugglers and how this book has impacted him mentally and emotionally. Don't forget, our book club pick for October is the nickel boys by Colson Whitehead. We will be discussing the book on Wednesday, October 30 with Franklin Leonard. Everything we talk about on today's episode of the stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. And if you love this show and you want inside access to it, or just to show us a little support, you can go to patreon.com/the stacks, and join the stacks pack for just $5 a month. You get to be part of our amazing discord community. You get to come to our monthly virtual book club meetups. You get a bonus episode each month, and you get to know that that money is going to help make this podcast possible. Another fun perk is that you get a shout out on the podcast. So thank you to Claire E, Alexis, Bogardus, Kelly, Kane, Anna H and Karen Kavanaugh. I also have a newsletter that you can subscribe to at Traci thomas.substack.com where you will still get those bonus episodes, hot takes on books and pop culture and so much more that also goes to supporting the show and keeping you up to date with whatever I am up to. So again, go to Traci thomas.substack.com and subscribe. All right. Now it is time for my conversation with Jason De León.

All right, everybody. I am so excited. I am joined today by National Book Award long listed author Jason De Leon, whose book is called soldiers and kings survival and hope in the world of human smuggling. Jason, welcome to the stacks.

Jason De León 2:29

Thank you so much for having me real pleasure.

Traci Thomas 2:31

Congratulations. Oh, thank you. Yeah. Was that an exciting day? Or what

Jason De León 2:35

it's it's pretty unreal. I mean, this is a book about people who aren't supposed to have a voice, and who, you know, kind of live on the margins of everything, and for for it to be recognized as an important story has just been really I'm more excited for those guys, I think I am, than I am even, even for me. But complete, complete shock.

Traci Thomas 2:55

I love it. Very exciting. I guess we should actually start with What's the book about? So in about 30 seconds, will you tell folks about soldiers and kings?

Jason De León 3:03

Yeah, soldiers and kings is a long term study of what it's like to be a human smuggler moving migrants across the length of Mexico. I had been studying migration for a long time, but usually from the perspective of migrants themselves, and just knowing that there's this important component to the story that just hadn't really been told. And so I spent about seven years with Honduran smugglers who were moving their fellow country, people from from Honduras, across Mexico into the United States.

Traci Thomas 3:32

Okay, I have so many questions for you. I started the book after the long list was announced, and after about, I don't know, 50 pages, I immediately reached out to your team, and I was like, I have to talk to this person. It's one of those books that brings up so much in the content of the book. But for me, as a person who reads a lot of investigative journalism, I had a lot of questions about, sort of like, the ethics and the procedures behind ethnography and the anthropology aspect of what you do, um, on a really basic level, can you kind of share which you do share in the beginning of the book, but can you share with listeners, what is sort of the difference between journalism and anthropology or ethnography, you know as techniques? Yeah, I

Jason De León 4:18

mean, I think it's an important question, because there are definitely journalists who do ethnographic sorts of things, and there's, there's quite a bit of overlap. I think, for me, the major difference between ethnography and journalism, one of the major differences is just time. You could think about ethnography as like the most extreme form of slow journalism, where, you know, the projects take years, sometimes decades to to work on. And it's, you know, spending so much time in the field with people, doing interviews, observing, taking notes, and that just goes on for a very, very long time. And so, you know, we don't really have a deadline, right? So there's no, there's no that's why these, these things can, can take a while. I think the other thing about ethnography that differentiates it from. Some forms of journalism is that we also spend a lot of time being concerned about what it is we're actually doing. I mean, with journalism, it's like, okay, you've got to be there. You're chasing a story, and the goal is to, is to meet a deadline and to and to get the story up. In the world ethnographers, it's more like, okay, it's thinking about the process itself. Why am I here? Why am I doing this? What are the implications of the work that I'm doing? What what could happen in the long run if I publish these things, if I write about these kinds of things, and I think I say in the book, I we're sort of the, I think of us as like the Larry David of social science, and it's like, it's constantly overthinking and saying out loud all of our worries and concerns, which I think keeps the discipline a bit a bit grounded, yeah.

Traci Thomas 5:41

I mean, I think the thing that I noticed also is that you are really a part of this story. And I don't know if that's common in ethnography or if that's just this book that you've written in this story, but I guess, what is the, what is the goal with an ethnography? Why write that instead of, you know, spending time and doing a reported piece? Yeah. I mean, I know that sort of a big question, because you sort of dedicated your

Jason De León 6:06

life to this. Yeah. I think when I think about ethnography, or why do I do it, partly is because I'm just so fascinated by the world, like people just I find to be I'm the last person to leave a party. I'm the person who will, who will have a prolonged conversation with a stranger about all kinds of stuff. And for whatever reason, people like telling me all kinds of stuff about their lives. And I think part of it maybe is because I'm so deeply interested, like, I'm really like, oh man. Like, how cool is that? I think everybody has an interesting story. And so I'm drawn to ethnography, partly because of that. But you know, the goal is often to, I think the goal of anthropology, which is what ethnography sort of falls on, you know, it's a major, primary tool that we use within the discipline. The goal is to get us to think about the world in a different kind of way, and perhaps in a non expected way. One of the one of the anthropology taglines is, it's making the the familiar, strange, and the strange, familiar. And so with ethnography, it's, Oh, you think you already know the story, but have you thought about it from this perspective? And you know, for me, that's what I love about it, is that, you know, anthropologists bring this weirdness to the table that you oftentimes don't see in in journalism or in other, you know, social science kinds of approaches. I mean, we're the weirdos who look at the world in a strange way, and, you know, and try to tell a different kind of story.

Traci Thomas 7:27

I think I feel so I see a kindred spirit in the sort of curiosity and interestedness that you're talking about. Because I think I have a lot of that. I mean, I interview people for 350 episodes about their books, and like all these little, silly, tiny, tiny questions that I'm just so fascinated by the process, let's talk about this book. It's about like, as you mentioned, smugglers, and I guess I'd never really thought about it, but can you tell people sort of the difference between a smuggler and a trafficker? Because I think those words are used interchangeably a lot in popular conversation, but they're very different things 100%

Jason De León 8:04

I mean, you oftentimes. I mean, we're hearing it a lot right now because of a it's because of the election, and people want to talk about border security, and people will say, you know, our goal is to stop trafficking at the US Mexico border. What they really mean is migration. And I think that there's a reason the general public doesn't understand the difference, because we conflate those terms all the time. Terms all the time. And so it's really simple. I mean, people are trafficked against their will. People are smuggled, typically, because they want to be. And so a smuggler is someone who you could think about provides a service to a client. I need to get to this place. I'm going to pay you money, and you are going to get me to that to that place. At the end of the day, a trafficker says, I'm taking you now. You have no longer any control over your destiny, and I'm going to sell you into slavery or whatever else. I'm going to move you against your will, right? That's not to say that you can't hire a smuggler who you think is going to provide a service for you, and they can't, you know, betray you and then start to traffic you. And that happened. That does happen, but at the end of the day, they're two very distinct things. And, you know, smugglers, we could think about them as, yeah, they are the the service providers in the realm of undocumented migration. I mean, people are rating them, they're recommending them, they're writing them bad reviews, I mean, and they're literally writing reviews of them on like Facebook, Tiktok, Instagram, so it's out there. I mean, it's a service that people are actively seeking out and paying for, but it's totally demonized because, you know, you only really hear about smugglers when, when somebody dies, someone people get left in the back of a truck and they die, they walk through the desert, and then they're abandoned by their smuggler and they die. And the government loves to bring that, those points up and to say, well, you know, 1000s of migrants have died in the Arizona desert because smugglers have have abandoned them there, or have brought them to the desert. But you really people cross through the snore desert of Arizona because of border policies that purposefully funnel them there. And it got to the point people said, well, the only way I'm going to get across this desert is with if I find a smuggler to. To bring me, to bring me through this, this journey. But so we have to think about them. If they were all bad people, they only did bad things to folks. It would cease to exist as a business. But the fact that there are just enough of those smugglers who, who you know, come through at the end of the day on the agreement that the the system keeps functioning. But obviously, you know, Smugglers Run the run the spectrum from really good ones to really bad ones, and everything in between. And so a big part of this book is just about the grayness of this and how it's it's this huge economy. People rely on it every day around the globe, and yet we don't really understand what it is to be a smuggler, what it looks like on a daily basis. Yeah.

Traci Thomas 10:39

I mean, one of the choices you make in this book, again, you talk about this. I mean, you sort of lay out everything in the introduction. It's a very, very good introduction, a plus. But you sort of talk about how you're not really focused on the stories of the people being smuggled, and this is really a book about the smugglers. And I'm wondering, was that a difficult decision? Was there ever a point where you thought, I'm going to try to tell both sides of this experience? When did you know it was just going to be about the smugglers like and also, what did we what do we lose from doing that, and what do we gain from doing that?

Jason De León 11:16

You know, when I finished my first book, The Land of open graves, which really is about migrants who who are crossing the East Mexico border. It's about people who die in the desert. It's about families of the missing who go looking for their lost loved ones. When that book was done, I didn't want to think about migration at all ever again. I mean, my goal was to shift gears completely. I wanted to do a new project on something totally unrelated to migration, on what, um, at that point I, you know, I'm always thinking about things that are going to make me uncomfortable or things that are going to really challenge me. So at that point, I was going to do a whole thing on cops and and I was, I was like, going to commit five to seven years of just being with, actually, with homicide detectives. And I'd gone to Mexico. I had taken a group of students, and they wanted to, you know, interview folks. And so I took them to a migrant shelter, was kind of getting them set up. And I said, Well, I have no interest in being in the shelter anymore. The, you know, I'd been in migrant shelters for many years. I didn't want to interview migrants anymore, because I just felt like I couldn't tell a new kind of story at that point. And these nuns who ran the shelter, they were like, Whatever you do, don't go outside. There's really bad people on the train tracks. And so, of course, me being like,

Traci Thomas 12:25

oh yeah. Like, where are the train tracks?

Jason De León 12:27

Which way? So I go out there and and immediately run into all these, you know, young guys who were, who were involved in smuggling and and they were just like, wanted to talk. They, you know, I found them to be really fascinating. And the fact that they wanted me to they were like, saying to me, nobody ever asked us about our side of the story. And I said, Well, I'm totally curious, and let's, let's start chatting. And so early on, when that, you know, when that happened, I became fully committed to that story, and I knew that it would make people uncomfortable. It made me uncomfortable leaving out, you know, the migrant voices as much as I did, but I just felt like I didn't. I wanted people to understand it to be its own thing. I mean, and there's a million books about about migrants, and it's pretty it's pretty easy to write a sympathetic book about migrants. I think most people, or a lot of people, not everybody, feel empathy for those folks. And I knew that it would just be way more challenging to write about this group and focus on them. I wanted to do that both because I think that's an important story to tell, but I also wanted to get out of my own comfort zone, and I'm because I'm constantly worried that I'm going to get stale. And so it's like, okay, let's do some new whole new thing, get get uncomfortable, and hopefully that will generate, you know, new ideas and and a new excitement around the topic, but it's also, you know, this anthropological thing of, I wanted to tell a story. What happens if you tell a story about migration from this unexpected perspective? And you know that that was, that was the goal, and I think that's kind of the goal with most things that I do these days. I

Traci Thomas 13:58

mean, I think you did such a good job with that, because I have read many books about migrant experiences and stories, both reported journalism and memoir and all and sort of that whole world. And then also, I've even read some books from border patrol people really, not fun, not great, not interested. Well, there was that one book that came out a few years ago where it was like, I became a border patrol agent, and I was like, I was like, Oh, this will be interesting. And then I was like, Oh, I hate it here. And then I was like, I'm never doing this again. But your book really challenged me in a few different ways, one of which is that it really changed how I was thinking about the power dynamics in this situation. I think, you know, we're often told that the people who are migrating are powerless and they are escaping horrible things, which is true from my understanding, but that the people who are doing the smuggling are. Are these really powerful people and that they have all of this money and access and all this stuff. And I think what you show in this book is that, for the most part, at least the people you're talking to, they're equally fleeing horrible situations. They're equally pretty powerless. They might have, you know, slightly more power than the person they're smuggling in those moments. But, you know, I don't know. I thought that was really interesting. And so I'm wondering, were you surprised by that? Like, did you go into this book sort of having a sense about what it was like to be a smuggler, or, like, having a sense of how the power dynamics worked, or were you really sort of figuring it out as you were going. I know you spent time talking to migrants, so you obviously were probably more familiar with smuggling than like a regular person. But how was the power stuff for you?

Jason De León 15:52

I expected it to be more organized, and I was expecting, like these folks, to have a lot more control over stuff, and that really was a surprising thing for me. I mean, you know, even the the title so soldiers and kings, soldiers is a reference to, like the these foot soldier guys who are moving along the train tracks. And King is because number one, a lot of a lot of the guys I work with would refer to themselves in each other as king in Spanish, Mireille. But and a lot of those kind of mid level smugglers try to give off this impression that they are, in fact, the king. They this is their, this is their, you know, their domain, and yet it's completely frag. I mean, it's a house of cards. And, you know, they can be high and on, you know, top of the world one day, and then immediately the next day at the very bottom, starting over again. And that shocked me, because partly, you know, the mid level smugglers that I was working with, they're always trying to give off the impression that they are the biggest, baddest, strongest, smartest person in the room, and people who have the whole thing figured out. And if you and this is why, with ethnography, it's interesting, because you stick around long enough you see that that's that that's not true. But just to see some of these guys go from having multiple apartments to then live sleeping on a concrete floor within less than a year, was really, was? It was quite shocking. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 17:11

you, as I mentioned, our character in this book, you come up a lot, and one of the things that comes up is money. In this book, you spend money on the people that you're following and covering, which is very different from journalism, I would say, I think that was like one of the things that kind of popped out and and I have had journalists on the show who have done sort of similar ethnographies, Andrea Elliott, who wrote invisible child, where she followed a family in New York City for 12 years or something, and you know, she would help them a little bit with food, or, you know, she would take them out to lunch to interview them, but she would never like give them groceries, right? And she had this very clear idea in her head of what was allowed and what wasn't. And I'm wondering what the ethics kind of air quotes of ethnography are. Are there any How do you balance how far you're willing to go, how much you're willing to spend, how involved you're willing to be in the story, and at what point do you sort of cut yourself off? You know,

Jason De León 18:07

that's a great question, and it's something that I think we all struggle with. I will say one of the things that I try to do in this book was to be really honest about those things, because I could have left all of those details out. Yeah, it's in there. Yeah.

Traci Thomas 18:19

I mean, that's what made me think of the question. It was like,

Jason De León 18:21

is happening? I do think a lot of people leave that stuff out. They just because they worry that that's going to, like, undermine the story in some way, shape or form. And, and for me, those things keep me up at night. And so I want to take owner, you know, from taking ownership of them and putting them out into the world is a way for me to say these things happened. This is how I dealt with it, and this and, and, you know, I'm open to talking about and to being like, you know, this is like therapy for me. In a lot of ways, the writing is like putting all this stuff out there so that, you know, I never, I try not to hide anything from, from, from the reader. You know, within anthropology, there's long history of this, this reciprocal relationship. I mean, and, and, I think in a lot of ways to I, you know, I don't think about it like I'm paying someone for the story, which I think is the worry in journalism is like, if you pay someone money, then you're paying they're telling you what you want to hear, because you're paying them this kind of story, you know. But with ethnography, I mean, you're there for so long this and you're asking the same question over and over again, you're seeing the same, you know, the story get richer and richer, and the details kind of come out. And so I was never worried, like, if I give someone money today or put, you know, it was mostly like phone credit on their phone, buying them food. I'm taking up so much of their time. I mean, ethnography is a completely extractive process, one with deep colonial roots, and is a really uncomfortable, you know. And I'm going to, I'm extracting information from folks. I'm going to go write this book, I'm going to sell books. I'm going to sell books, I'm going to give talks and be paid for those talks. And so for me, and for most, I think anthropologists, we all have, we have to come up with our own idea about, how does one reciprocate those that we work with? A lot of times it happens, it's not just, oh, I bought this family groceries or I put, you know, credit on my friend's cell phone. You know, we become God. Parents to people that we write about, we create these really intense familial kinds of connections that require, you know, oftentimes, a monetary investment. And so for me, it was, every person is different. And when I was writing about migrants, migrants never asked me for money. I mean, pretty rarely. And there were folks that, you know, I have a friend who I wrote about my first book. I'm basically his health insurance now. I mean, it's 15 years later, and I'm totally fine with that, you know? I mean, that's that we we connected in a way that we're linked now for life. But he doesn't ask me that stuff. I mean, I have to call in, like, kind of probe about, how are things going? Are you going to the doctor? Can you afford it? Okay, let me figure out how I can help you with smugglers. It's a whole different ballgame. I mean, these are folks who their entire job is about extracting money from strangers, and so that ended up putting me in kind of difficult situations where I was being asked about money a lot more and had to set kind of ground rules and say, you know, I'm happy to pay for your time when you're not working, when you're losing money, you could be out on the streets doing whatever it is that you're doing. And so, you know, I don't want people to think about me as someone who is taking away from their livelihood, or they're losing money in this whole process, because money for them. I mean, they're living, they're living hand to mouth. But everybody was different. And you know the story about about Kingston in the book, who, you know, extracting as much money as he as he could from me was interesting, because at the end of the day too, I think in some ways, it helped me to understand what it might feel like to be a family member or or of a migrant who he's smuggling and he's constantly calling and asking for money, or being a migrant and being and just being nickeled and dimed at every at every corner. Yeah, but yeah, we, but every anthropologist who goes into the field has to deal with this in some in some way, shape or form. And so we, you know, there's a, there's a long discussion about about, what are the limits of this, right?

Traci Thomas 21:51

And for you, Jason, what do you I guess I think the question for me is, like, there's no such thing as objectivity. Obviously, I think we've been sold this bill of Lot goods about, like, objective, you know, whatever. And I don't believe in that, and I never have, and I think, like, as a woman of color, like, I think that's pretty clear why. But you and I both have our own moral codes, and our both have our own sense of like, ourselves, our own objectivity, when we're being objective, when we're being subjective, and I guess when you're doing this kind of work, I would imagine that those lines get really blurred, because you're constantly trying to figure out, how am I going to get this information, like you said, it's very extractive, but also, how am I going to make sure that what I'm Getting feels like something that I then would be willing to profit off of, or like, be willing to sell. So I'm, I guess I want to get more specific with you is like, how, how were you thinking about what your limits were? Like, how did you Were there times where you felt like, this is too far. I shouldn't do this next time. Or like, Were there times where you felt like, I don't know. I think, I think some of it is answered in the fact that you do disclose it in the book. I think that that part of it lends so much credence to what you've done. Is like, as a reader, I can hear what's happening, but I'm just wondering, like, in those moments, or even as you're putting the book together after the fact, like, how were you thinking of your own objectivity and moral obligations?

Jason De León 23:26

You know, it's funny. I started really thinking about this after my first book came out, because, you know, I had been really used to, like most a lot of ethnographies, the writer is pretty minimal. I mean, the narrator, the anthropologists, um, purposely, they're edited out, and it's supposed to be, we know, we're a fly on the wall, and, you know, we're looking at people through, you know, a microscope or a aquarium glass, and we're not messing up what's going on at all, which I which, when I started doing ethnography, I was like, this is total bullshit. Like we're fucking up shit all the time, like we're never a fly on the wall. You're the weird dude from some other place who's here recording stuff, taking pictures. And so I got really uncomfortable with this idea that we were somehow, you know, like, the was it like the Star Trek objective? Like, don't ever interfere, you know, I'm like, well, we interfere all the time. This is all the time and so. But I didn't realize, though, was in the when I finished the first book, I realized that my voice, in some in many parts, was very quiet. I wasn't really present. And then there were other moments where it was it was pretty loud, and the moments that it was the loudest was when I was the most conflicted about what was happening. Like, do I take this picture? Do I write about this? You know, do I ask this kind of question and and so there's a way for me to, like, take ownership of the of the difficulties and these moments where you where you're pushing up against this thing that you're like, am I going too far, or, you know, or is this born supposed to be with soldiers and kings? The entire book for me was like, am I supposed to be here? And why am I doing this? What is happening? And, you know, talking. My editor and my agent in the beginning stages, I had kind of written myself out of this whole story. I mean, I was telling it from this other perspective. And what they both said to me was, we need you there as a character, as a narrator, so you can help us understand what's going on and so we can create, we can build some trust with you so we know that you know that you're being hopefully thoughtful about this, and you're concerned about many of these issues that are, that are that are arising. And in order for that to happen, I have, I had to, like, write myself in as as this, this character, and these moments where I'm having there's, I mean, there were so many ethical quandaries and so many just really difficult moments that I don't think I could have written about them in a in a either in an ethical way or even a credible way, without being sort of present. But that was hard. I mean, I didn't, you know, I didn't necessarily want to be in the book as much as I am, but at the end of the day, it felt like, like I needed to be for because there were a lot of things too that I worked, that I had to work out during this project. I mean, this book, this work, fundamentally changed me. I mean, it like broke me in half when my friend Roberto dies, and then these guys and the work kind of glued me back together and taught me so much about empathy and about hope and about the difficult lives that people live in. And so, you know, I didn't, didn't expect to learn about empathy from a bunch of like, roughnecks who, you know, but these guys really changed me a lot. I thought that that ended up being kind of an important part of the story, too, because what does that mean for us to spend all this time in these difficult places and to try to find some beauty and some hope? You know? I think that for me, that was one of the big messages too, is that we can't write these people off. We can't, you know, we can't just think we know what's going on. I mean, there's so much there, and people are are trying to make go of it, and it's important to to see that the richness of the lives that those folks are living in. For me, it was very it was deeply impactful.

Traci Thomas 26:56

Yeah. I mean, as a reader, I think that you really do convey that to I could feel it. I can't speak for every other reader, but I certainly could feel it. And I, as I said, like it was a challenging book to read, because I think I was grappling with some of the same questions that maybe you were grappling with, that you presented, like, from your perspective, sort of like, how do you see these people? And I kept thinking, like, Am I too locked into this? Like, right, wrong binary. I feel like I am like, I feel like I kept pushing. And I'm like, is, is Jason an accomplice? Like, is. And then I'm like, does it matter? Like, why do I care? Does Jason care? But like to be thinking about the people in your book, you know, and thinking about what they're going through, but also to be thinking about how I have been taught to think about them was really, really interesting. And by the end of the book, I think I went on that same journey with you, of like, these are fucking people, like, what are we doing here? And I guess I wasn't gonna save this for after the break, but I'm gonna ask us to you now and then we'll go to break which is, do you think of this text as being maybe an abolitionist text at all? Were you trying to bring a moral ambiguity to the work?

Jason De León 28:13

You know, I have not been asked that question before, yes, but I do think in a lot of ways that it comes out like that, I mean, and it wasn't, wasn't necessarily my intention. It was just that's what I went in to look at this thing. It troubled me. It was complicated. It made me feel weird in all kinds of different ways. And I was just kind of being, you know, what I thought I knew, I didn't know. And, you know, the gray zone, just like the whole thing was, was, is a gray zone. And I started this whole thing like my friend Roberto had died. It crushed me. And so then I thought to myself, I just want to write a story about him so that, so that he can be remembered and beyond the small number of people who knew him and people who had written him off. And you know, it was deeply, it was a very sad kind of thing to think about, like, he's one of millions like that, you know. And, and there's so much suffering in the world, and these systems stay in place and stay functioning, because I think we're, we've been taught to think about them in these kind of black and white sort of terms. And, and even, I think liberal educated people still struggle with with some of these things. I mean, like, I think I talk about in the book, there's a moment where I gave a talk around some of the stuff, and one of my colleagues said I didn't like that talk because it made me feel uncomfortable. It made me start to feel sorry for these people that I don't want to feel sorry for. And you know, my response is that, like, the world is a terrible place, and it's okay to to have complicated feelings about these things, because, I mean, we have complicated feelings about about a lot of stuff, but we seem to want to put some of these political things in, in these boxes that that they don't really want to fit in that. Or when you, when you get up close to them, they they defy these kind of these, these boundaries. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 29:56

okay, I have a question about this, but we're going to take a quick break and. Right back. Okay, we're back to what we were talking about, about, sort of what we're allowed to talk about, what we're allowed to feel in these situations. In the conclusion, you talk a bit about, sort of, people ask you, like, what can be done? And you're, you're sort of like, this is not a fun answer, like, I don't have a thing, but what you do mention is the relationship between security and capitalism and how those things are super integral to smuggling. And I would love to hear you sort of explain that a little more, expound on that a little bit more.

Jason De León 30:35

Yeah. It's funny when I used to get asked about, like, policy questions and stuff early on, I wanted to give people kind of concrete things like, Oh, well, I mean, a guest worker program, or, you know, whatever, whatever wanted to

Traci Thomas 30:49

have, like your party platform, yeah. And then,

Jason De León 30:53

and I used to look at, like, a lot of, like, my more senior colleagues who would just come out and be like, You know what the problem is? The problem is fucking capitalism. And it's like, oh, you're just like, 60s, liberal leftist, you know, and, and I think I was always put off by that, because I think it was always this, like, declarative statement with no kind of context, or, you know, to say, Oh, the problem is capitalism. Let's move on, or abolish capitalism. I think that's hard for a lot of people because, I mean, our society is fundamentally built around that. But I think when you start to look at capitalism and its repercussions, what it does, how it functions and how it's related to all of these things, climate change, border security, the prison industrial complex, you know, racism, every single sec, it's all connected, you know, I think that the that's an unsatisfactory response and but also, you know, as an anthropologist, you know, I like to joke that we, we overly, we think about the stuff in so many different ways at once, which is not conducive for, like, a political slogan, you know, Right? It would be, like, it wouldn't fit on a on a pamphlet. It would be unless that pamphlet was 200 pages long,

Traci Thomas 32:06

unless the pamphlet was a book, a book, right?

Jason De León 32:10

And so, you know, with this stuff now, you know, and with both of my books, people had wanted me to, like, really, kind of dig into some policy recommendations. But I think anything you put down there that's so specific becomes immediately dated. But also, you know, I think that we're looking at like we're putting band aids on this huge on this huge thing, and these little tiny recommendations at the end of the day, I feel like they fall pretty flat, like there's so many things have to be considered at once, and some of them are bigger, and some of them are smaller, but something like capitalism, for me, I'm becoming, you know, this thing that I used to mock when I say, you know, that's the problem, but, but I want to talk about how it's the problem, but then give you some of the specifics that from from my own perspective, and how these things are all are all related. Because I think we want to keep like we're talking about border security, but then we don't want to talk about, like, displacement, political meddling, and third world, all these kind of we want to keep everything kind of separate. And I think if someone comes out and says, like, the problem is capitalism, it has to be followed with a diagram that shows you how these things are all connected, and how fixing this one little thing over here has nothing to do with the root causes that are going to keep this thing in perpetual motion,

Traci Thomas 33:24

right? I mean, I again, I feel, I feel seen by you right now. Though, I'm not an anthropologist, I am a person who thinks a lot about things, because I read so many books about things, right? Like, I'm constantly getting new people's perspective and trying to distill it and figure out, what do I think and what do I believe. And I, too, have sort of moved to the it's just capitalism's the problem, right? And I guess, like, the question is, and this is, like, way, probably bigger than either of us, but just something that I think about a lot is, like, if there is no little fix, and also just getting rid of capitalism isn't gonna happen tomorrow. What are effective things like, what, what is a big fix that could fix a thing within the system that we're in, like, outside of, be changing the entire United States Mission. You know,

Jason De León 34:17

I think for me, it's, it's a kind of multi prong approach to say, okay, like, like, if we want to deal with, like, the global migration crisis, we cannot start at borders, right? So we can, let's, let's think about what's like, you know, I say people like, how do we solve the problem, the US, Mexico border? So Well, let's think about two things, why are people leaving, and then why are they coming? And you can, you can deal with it on both ends and completely jump over this. You could, you can remove the border. If there were, if there was no jobs for people to take in the United States, right, or there was no reason for them to leave in the first place, we wouldn't have this issue. And so for me, it's like giving people to say that we have to look at it from multiple perspectives all at once. That is a big part of it, but then also making more major, substantial changes to the system. You know, when Obama passed the deferred action for child arrivals, DACA, people were super excited about this thing, right? All these kids who had been brought here when they were young to the United States, were going to be able to go to college, were going to be able to work. And that was a great kind of first step. But then we looked at it as like, oh, well, now problem is solved. And it's like, Well, that just helps a very small number of people. If we're going to start something big that's going to last beyond that, we need to make, we need to make some uncomfortable kinds of changes and and I think we're, um, we're not comfortable with with those really major kinds of we want to do small kind of things. And we and part of the reason too, is, you know, the American public does think about immigration as a problem to be solved at the US Mexico border. They don't think about it. I mean, in any with any other geography in mind, or with, oftentimes, with a lot of nuance. I mean, this is why you can say something like, oh, Haitians are eating cats in Ohio, and people are like, Oh, my God, you know, crazy, yeah, that's a so that that group, you can't say to them, let's get rid of the border wall and talk about, you know, private industry and, you know, climate change, or political corruption, these other places that's been fueled by the US interests that gets, you know, that's too complicated of a narrative for a lot of people. And same thing with with, like, capitalism, like, right? It just It turns them off quickly, and they suddenly, like, I knew you were one of those leftist, you know, like, irresponsible, whatever, you know, adjectives they want to use, right?

Traci Thomas 36:39

Do you think about audience? Because I'm thinking about, like, who is reading this book? Who are you writing to? Who are you? Who are you hoping is reading this book?

Jason De León 36:46

Um, you know, audience, definitely not anthropologists. I'm done writing for my people, right? Because I just don't care. I mean, like, I don't read I read ethnography, I read good ones that are recommended to me, or ones that are around a subject matter that's of interest to me, but there's a lot of bad we're putting on a lot of bad stuff in the world because we're writing for this academic audience, and I just think that we're shooting ourselves in the foot, and it's not doing any good for society. My audience was like, people who don't know, I think it was people who don't know anything about the story about migration, and who are going to pick it up and be like, Oh, smuggling, salacious kind of thing, and then be like, Haha, capitalism, you know, climate change, empathy, gotcha, yeah. And so, you know, part of it is, I want people to read this book that know nothing about this process, and to kind of and to be able to walk away from it thinking about, oh, did I just read a story about migration and smuggling, or did I just read a story about a bunch of people who were in difficult situations and who were trying to make it work, who just happened to be smugglers, who just happened to be from Honduras, who just happened to be involved in this global migration crisis? But I also, you know, I want to give the public a different perspective. To me, it's really hard to tell stories about the border or about migration, because we're flooded with them. So many of them, you just change the cover. It's, I mean, it's the same story with within the book. And so I think that's a real turn off for a lot of people, because they go, Oh, I already know all about that. I already read it. Yeah, you know, I read enrique's journey, or I read, you know, Devil's Highway. I already know all about this whole process. And so to add anything new to that conversation is difficult, and part of my goal is to then try to tell a different kind of story about this thing we think we already know so much about, to kind of flip the script a bit. But yeah, I mean, I think I wrote the book for any I mean, I wasn't really thinking it was like I wanted to tell a readable story, and I wanted people to get close to these people that I was close to. But I don't know if I was necessarily thinking like, oh, is this my I think some of the critiques I'm getting from some anthropologists is like, it's not anthropological enough in terms of, like, the, you know, the theoretical kinds of stuff. And I said, Well, that's okay, because that's not the goal of this book. That's a different, different audience. I really just want, I want people who don't ever think about anthropology to want to read anthropology.

Traci Thomas 39:04

Yeah, okay, I have two follow up questions. One is, what are some really good ethnographies? Good ethnographies like to you, according to you, not necessarily you know anything,

Jason De León 39:17

anything written by Lawrence Ralph. So he's got a new book out called cito that's about unfortunate about his the murder of his stepson. Oh, I've seen this, yeah. So he's got a book about gang life in Chicago that's really good. His first ethnography, Yeva husianite, she has a new book out called Exit Wounds, which I think is really good. And her book threshold on paramedics at the US Mexico border is really good. I think Philippe bourgois books righteous dope fiend and in search of respect are both really good. You know, kind of in search of respect was about crack dealing in Harlem in the 80s, and it was kind of a the beginning of a new genre. Think of writing for anthropologists. Angela Garcia, she's got a new book out on drug addiction in Mexico City. That's, that's really good. Oh,

Traci Thomas 40:07

yeah, that the ones that lead among the lost. The lead some, yes,

Jason De León 40:11

yeah. I think that that book is, I just,

Traci Thomas 40:14

I might have the some of the words wrong, but among the lost, I think, is how the title ends. Yes. I

Jason De León 40:20

think that's, that's great. Yeah, there's, there's good stuff out there. I mean, I think you just have to, you just have to kind of dig for but it does feel like, also, we're in a moment where a lot of ethnographers are getting more serious about writing for a general audience, and which is really wonderful to see happen.

Traci Thomas 40:36

I like it. I'm interested in in it as a style of writing. My other question is about the cover. One of the things you mentioned is you just changed the cover, and then it's the same story kind of inside. And one of the things I've noticed in the last five or so years is that almost every single book about migration that has come out has a cream colored, tight cover, and your book is blue with yellow, and it really stands out among those books. I mean, I can think of like, five books off the top of my head that are that same, like, sort of tan color. I'm wondering if the Blue was something that you were interested in at all, if you were thinking about this, or if this is just what the team at biking kind of brought to you, and how this cover sort of came to be, if you were at all involved

Jason De León 41:21

the first versions, you know, we, we had been looking at images, and so that photo was taken by my, my collaborator, Michael wells, because we were, we were involved in, we shot a lot of images, and there's a follow up book on the photography of the project. Oh, cool. But initially, like, so we, I had submitted a bunch of images for consideration for the cover, and, you know, and some of them were, like, people on the train tracks, or, like, groups of people walking. And then we just thought, like, do we need another migration book that just shows a bunch of people walking? Right? Like, that's like, the that's like, the go to and so that image is, so is a beautiful image. It's actually a woman. People ask if it's a, what's this guy's name? It's actually the back of a woman's head who had been in one of these safe houses and was, was hanging out with, with, with my buddy, Flacco. But that those are that was, like, we wanted something that was, you know, a little we would hope unexpected. And then Viking came with, I mean, they came with, with the color schemes. And I think we just immediately thought it was wonderful. But there was an early version that was cream tan colored. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 42:27

I'm telling you, it is the tan every book. Yeah, that I'm just like, what it what is this like? What is I'm so curious of like, the psychology behind it from the cover designers, because there's clearly a conversation happening currently about books about immigration must be light, dark, white, yeah. Is there anything that's not in this book that you wish was or could have been?

Jason De León 42:55

I wish there was more humor. I mean, there's a lot of funny moments in the book. Yeah

Traci Thomas 42:59

pants, yeah,

Jason De León 43:00

oh my god. Like, yeah, just, I mean, that guy needs his own. Kingston just needs his own. If it was, if our relationship wasn't so difficult, I would, you know,

Traci Thomas 43:11

he would have his own. Oh

Jason De León 43:12

my god, yeah. You know people, people are funny, and with all you know, the stuff that I've written, people will say things to me like, I didn't expect to, like, I expected to be sad about this book, but I also didn't, didn't expect to have moments where I was, like, laughing about some of this stuff. And it's like, well, you know, especially with like, smugglers, so many of them are so charismatic, so they can tell a good story. Oh, my God. And so I could do a whole book on just like, migrate, humor on the migrant trail, and it's just, and I think that was one of the things that that kept me going back to was that I enjoyed being with these folks, and we were always laughing and just talking shit and just, you know, the things that would come out of people's mouths are just like, holy moly, you know, why aren't you doing stand up kind of thing? And so I think that that was something that I wish I had kind of had more, more space for but there was a lot of, there's a lot going on in the book, and so, you know, some things had to get get pulled out. I think also, so much has happened since the book come out, came out. And I wish that that I'd had some space to kind of update, you know, some of those folks. I mean, especially like someone like Jasmine, who, you know, is still really struggling, and is in Honduras, and it's just a lot of a lot of stuff has happened since, since the book has come out that I think really reflect, especially through things around climate change and just the the general disaster that's happening in Central America right now. So I maybe with, if they ever do a paperback, yeah, updated version, I can include some of that stuff. Yeah. Okay,

Traci Thomas 44:41

this is a little bit about your writing process. How do you write? How many hours a day? How often music or no snacks or beverages in your house? Talk about it. You

Jason De León 44:52

know my my dear colleague at University of Michigan, Ruth Bahar, who is a beautiful writer. And actually, that's another good another good ethnography, anything that. That Ruth has written is just so amazing. But she's someone who writes every day. She's, you know, she has this whole ritual. And I'm someone like, I haven't written anything in almost a year. I mean, the book came out, and then I was busy doing other stuff. I mean, I writing a few things in there. I write in spurts and so, but when I was working on soldiers and kings, I was on sabbatical, and so I was writing every day, I would get up, usually I'd get up in the morning, I'd go for a run, I'd listen to whatever music I needed to be with for whatever what I was writing about. So if I'm writing about Kingston, there's a certain there's certain songs there. If I'm writing about luck, I've got that music. And so I don't know if that's like, my my like, OCD brain or whatever, but it's like, it'll be the same song, just, you know, Spotify. When it gives me my my yearly Roundup, they're like, you listen to this song 4 million times. You listen to six songs this year, yeah, and so. So it's sort of like, I run, I get this, I get the kind of music in my head, and then I'll sit down. I used to be able to write for a lot longer periods of time, like eight hours, and now, because of kids and everything else, and my brain is doesn't work like it used to. It's usually like eight until lunchtime, and then I'll have and then I'll eat. I try not to look at email or anything. And then if I can do a little bit more for lunch, that's great. And then I will just read for the rest of the afternoon. I would say almost 50% of my writing process is reading books like I just I read, and then I go, God, I want, I wish I could write like this person. And then that keeps me getting it gets me excited for the for the for the next day. Okay,

Traci Thomas 46:28

so I know that you were reading Jesmyn Ward while you were writing this book, because it's in the acknowledgement. But what sort of stuff are you reading? Just reading for pleasure, and also on the Jesmyn Ward front, what about her writing? Do you feel like you were using, like, what? What was useful to you about her work?

Jason De León 46:47

You know, I think about her work well, and this is why there's a character named after her in the book.

Traci Thomas 46:54

Oh, right. Because these are all nicknames, yeah, or, like, made up names, yeah,

Jason De León 46:57

you know, with with her stuff, you know, I like the kind of the brevity of the writing style, which, you know, I sort of think she's like a like the and Hemingway kind of does this to me, where it's like, I don't understand how someone can break your heart with six words. And she's really good at doing that and but also really being self aware, which a lot of like, you know, Hemingway, I think, wasn't often, you know, this is kind of heavy handed, and so I appreciate the fact that she can break your heart with five or six words, but also can write in such a sensitive, kind of nuanced way and tell the story in a in a kind of a gentle yet really powerful and kind of heartbreaking way. And, and I love all her stuff, I mean, and including, I mean, her memoir, the men we read, I think it's like, that's like, the,

Traci Thomas 47:48

I think that's her best book, yeah.

Jason De León 47:49

I mean, nobody wants to talk. I mean, that was a book that, you know, I think I read that maybe second or third after I started, and was like, Oh, my God. Why is she writing more of this amazing and it's, it's beautiful, and, you know, so, yeah, I think I'm, I'm always trying to just write shorter sentences, but pack in as much as I can, in a way that, you know, it doesn't feel heavy, but it is Wardian, yeah, exactly. But, like, but, yeah, the reading part for me that's like, I tell people, you know, I'm also a musician. I'm like, you can't make an album if you're not. You're not listening to music all the time, if you're not hearing and this is why, I think the problem with it with anthropology and ethnographers, they're reading other ethnographies, trying to write an ethnography, reproducing, you know, right, some of those bad habits. And part of it is, like, I think when you become an academic graduate school, for me, at least, killed my love of reading, because I was just reading things I didn't, you know, things for work. I was not reading any literature, things that I that I loved. And when I was writing my first book, I had to go back and rediscover my love of reading, because I hated writing, you know, part of my first book as an academic, I hated the writing process. I didn't want to do it. And it wasn't until I was forced to write a book, and then was it enforced also to rediscover my love of reading, that that I just remembered, like, oh, I used to read so much, and I read, I mean, I read mostly fiction. I don't read any non I mean, it's, it's pretty rare that I read nonfiction these days, but I find that, yeah, four or five hours of writing, three hours of reading, you know, rinse, rinse, repeat,

Traci Thomas 49:21

okay. Besides Jasmine Ward, what else are you loving right now,

Jason De León 49:24

I'm rereading a lot of old stuff. I'm teaching this class called archeology the apocalypse, which is half speculative fiction, and it's getting students think about what the archeological remnants of our future disaster could look like. And so I'm teaching Handmaid's Tale. Actually, it lines up.

Traci Thomas 49:39

I just read that for the first time. Yeah, it's a, really,

Jason De León 49:43

it's a, I'm rereading that. It's like, I'm loving rereading that. I mean, loving it also being totally mortified about Yeah. But so I'm reading that right now and really enjoying that. I just read the fact of a body that was,

Traci Thomas 49:58

Oh, yeah. I. Alex Marzano, yeah, something, yeah.

Jason De León 50:02

I really enjoy, I enjoyed that that was, you know, people reckon recommend nonfiction to me that, you know, it's usually something super dark like that. But I just, I really, that book really stuck with me for, you know, I'm still, still thinking about it a month, a month and a half, two months later, I

Traci Thomas 50:17

want to give you a recommendation based on the class you're talking about, which is one of your fellow long listed books, which is magical realism, okay, I think you'd really appreciate it talks a lot about speculative fiction and fantasy and the genres, and also like how they function due to like colonialism and race. And it's just really smart stuff, really good. Another thing you mentioned in the acknowledgements is your therapist, and how therapy is sort of a part of your process. And anytime I see that in a book, I almost always want to ask about it, because so many authors kind of act like the stuff doesn't affect them. And I'm wondering like, what do you feel like? Do you feel like there's parts of this book that you could not have written without therapy?

Jason De León 51:09

No, it was more like this book sent me to therapy, back to therapy, but it was like, as I was writing this stuff out and needing to get it out, going like, Oh, that's interesting. Still thinking about that, huh? I thought we had already resolved that, you know, because I had been, I had been in therapy as a kid, and then I had this kind of very brutal childhood, living, living with my dad that just, I'm still working that out now, but I blocked it out in a lot of different ways. And I think it manifests itself later in life in terms of, like, the kind of maniac that I was for a long time, and all of the like, the struggles that I had with, like self destructive kind of tendencies, you know, working on this book and and writing and working with all these young men who I'm seeing myself. And then was kind of eye opening to be like, oh, you know, because I kept asking myself, like, why do we get along so well with these guys who just feel like they want to die, or who are just like, headed towards self destruction? And then maybe like, oh, it's because this feels super familiar. And so the stuff started to come out, and I was feeling like one that that I was damaging myself by trying to write about this stuff. I didn't have the language to talk about some of these things. Things were were, I think, resurfacing for me, that were really troubling. And it was kind of like, I wrote this book, I put, I put a lot of stuff in there that that I had never really said out loud, or at least not not publicly. And then was like, well, now what? Now I don't like writing, writing about it was sort of therapy. But once the book was done, I was like, I'm, you know, once the book was done, it just felt like, Oh well, I don't have a that was my safety net. And so I needed to go, go back to therapy and and I feel like I went back to therapy after more than 20 years, better equipped to talk about this stuff, because I had just been talking, I just been telling it to the public, right? I just been writing it out. And now I was like, Okay, I'm here to work. I'm here to be open and honest about what, about what's happening. And, you know, my therapist, you know, she sort of came on board. I want to say, you know, I was already at the editing stage, but, you know, a complete, you know, just changed, changed so many things for me. And I just came back from a border, a border conference last week in LA with a bunch of writers and stuff, and that we, the last day, we were just all talking about, you know, how much people love being in therapy. And the people, and the people who weren't therapy were like, well, maybe I need to, you know, we're like, yeah, yeah. Come on, come with us. You know, you love it. It's great. It's a, yeah, I mean, she my therapist, Theresa, was just was so important for me to to to get through those last, last sort of hurdles, and then, more importantly, for me just to feel like I'm in a, I'm in a good place now, and I'm getting to an even better place as I, as I'm, you know, working on, on doing, doing my self work, which I never thought, I mean, when I before I started this book, or even went back to therapy, you know, I didn't, you know, person this idea of, like, personal growth would I was like, what? Who needs that? Like, I'm fine. I've been thinking this stuff, this shit. I'm like, bulletproof, you know, I might. And my first book was, was really depressing and hard. And I think people would ask me like, Well, how do you do this difficult stuff? You know, you're interviewing people who've lost a child and they can't and they're missing you. You're finding a dead body in the desert, you know, how does that? How are you getting through that stuff? And and I used to say things like, well, that's what beer is for. Or, you know, I gotta. I would say things like, I have a thick skin because, you know, I have a high tolerance for terribleness because of, you know, because of who I am, and the older I've gotten to realize that, like, I have a My I'm more sensitive now than I've ever been and, but I also needed to, like, be really honest with with the reader about, you know, this, and this is why, like, I'm not. It. I'm not the fly on the wall or and, you know, I might be in the corner, but I'm in the corner crying. I'm in the corner like people are looking at me and they're, like, adjusting their behavior based on that. And then I'm going home and being like, Wow, that really fucked me up. But I think it's, you know, part of this book, maybe one audience that's more specific, is I wanted to write something for people who are thinking about doing ethnographic work so that they could see how challenging it is and how the you know, how we mess up all the time, and that's okay. I mean, the world is messy, and I'd never wanted to hide that, because a lot of the ethnographies I'd read early on, it seemed like the writer had everything figured out. Everything was perfect. You show up, people tell you their secrets, and you write, you go home and write about it, and nothing bad ever happens. And that has never been my experience. And so I wanted that to be something upfront, so that a student could look at it and go, Oh, this is going to be challenging, but I can do it and and a way to deal with it is just to be, for me at least, is to be really open about about what I'm going through.

Traci Thomas 55:58

Okay, I have, we're, like, sort of out of time, but I have like, two and a half really quick questions. One is, what's a word you can never spell correctly on the first try?

Jason De León 56:06

It's oftentimes words with, like, ei or IE, like, yeah, like, impossible. And AI is making my life. I mean, I'm just like, yeah, what you know is it autocorrects everything. Yes,

Traci Thomas 56:18

I just leave typos. Now, I'm just like, I know it's wrong, but I can't figure it out. You get the point? It's fine. My other little mini half question, it's not really a question, it's more of a statement. You're a Dodgers fan. How dare you? Okay, next. So I'm a Giants fan, and I was reading when I was in the acknowledgments, I was like, what's happening here? Why am I taking strays right now? Like, you're like, hate you're like, to my best friend ever, a Giants fan. Oh, Jason, I liked you, but now I don't. My sister

Jason De León 56:49

is a big Giants fan, and she gives me so much shit.

Traci Thomas 56:51

She's got good taste. I

Jason De León 56:53

was born in San Francisco, but, you know, raised in LA

Traci Thomas 56:57

and I was born in Oakland, or born in Oakland, raised in Oakland, but my dad is from San Francisco, and my godfather is dusty Baker. So in my childhood, I was raised a Giants fan. Now I've become, I mean, I'm still a Giants fan, but I rooted for many teams as he's traveled around the league, but I've always, always hated the Dodgers deeply. He was a Dodger. He was a Dodger, but not in my lifetime. He was a Dodger before I was born. So it doesn't count, and I still hate the Dodgers. You know how it is. You just have to, I have to have an enemy. Last question, if you could have one person dead or alive read this book, who would you want it

Jason De León 57:37

to be? Oh, that's a good question. I'm always trying to get Jason Isbell to read my stuff, so that he'll write a song, okay, based on this. And so that's, you know, he's in the he's in the beginning of the book. He's on the soundtrack. Yeah, you know, I feel like,

Traci Thomas 57:54

did you send it to him?

Jason De León 57:55

I didn't send. I should send him. I sent him. I gave him a copy of my first book. Send a note. But I should, yeah, because I just feel like, I mean, he would, these are characters that he like, that he would write about, and probably find some, you know, some some, some kinship with. But, you know, I yeah, I mean, I, I think I use these books as, like, an attempt to, like, ingratiate myself with him, because I find him to be such a, I mean, and that was the thing too. Like the like, not just the reading as part of the writing process, but also listening to music, especially music with, you know, with lyrics like Springsteen, Jason Isbell. You know, a lot of, there's a lot of American the soundtrack on the on the for the book is really, you know, truly was what I was listening to and being kind of inspired by, as I was trying to, you know, work through it.

Traci Thomas 58:37

Did you make a Spotify playlist for all of us to listen to? It is

Jason De León 58:40

yeah. So it's Yeah. I think there's the book, I think has a QR code, but definitely, if you go to the website,

Traci Thomas 58:46

the penguin will link to it in the show in the show notes, yeah,

Jason De León 58:49

there's definitely a playlist without, with all of that stuff, I love

Traci Thomas 58:53

this, this thing that books are doing now where they're sharing their playlist for the book. I think it's so fun. I went to

Jason De León 58:59

I went to them and said, Can we do a playlist? Because my buddy Willie vlaughton, who's a who's a novelist, you know, up in the Pacific Northwest, his books, a lot of his books, have had soundtracks that he just composes, like a score. And so I got, I kind of stole that idea from him, but I was like, what if, you know, and, and I think in my first book, I referenced a little bit in acknowledgement, some of the songs, but with this one, I was like, let's just give it. Give it to you. So you can, you can kind of be, be in that space with me, because, you know, for me, sound ends up being being so crucial to to a big part of the storytelling.

Traci Thomas 59:29

Wow. Okay, this was amazing. Thank you so much. Jason, everyone you can get soldiers and kings survival and hope in the world of human smuggling, wherever you get your books, it is out in the world. Now. I read some from the page. I also listened to Jason's amazing narration of the audiobook, so I can give an A plus stamp of approval to that as well for my audiobook, people, the book is on the National Book Award long list. Congratulations, so well deserved. And thank you so much for being a guest today. Thank

Jason De León 59:57

you so much for having me. It's

Traci Thomas 59:59

been a real pleasure. And everyone else, we will see you in the stacks.

All right, y'all that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening, and thank you again to Jason De León for joining the show. I'd also like to thank Rebecca Marchand and Julia Ricard for helping to make this conversation possible. Don't forget the stacks book club pick for October is the nickel boys by Colson Whitehead. We will be discussing that book on Wednesday, October 30, with our guest, Franklin Leonard. If you love this podcast, if you want inside access to it, some bonus perks, go to patreon.com/thestacks and join the stacks pack and be sure to subscribe to my newsletter at tracithomas.substack.com. Also make sure you're subscribed to this podcast, wherever you're listening to podcasts, and if you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, please leave us a rating and a review for more from the stacks. Follow us on social media, @thestackspod on Instagram, threads and Tiktok, and @thestackspod_ on Twitter, and you can check out our website at the stacks podcast.com Today's episode of The Stacks was edited by Christian Dueñas, with production assistance from Megan Caballero. Our graphic designer is Robin McCreight, and our theme music is from Tagirijus. The Stacks is created and produced by me Traci Thomas.

]]>Ep. 341 Am I Supposed to Be Here with Jason De LeónEp. 340 Conspiracy Theories Are Not About the Truth with Jesselyn CookStacks AssistantWed, 09 Oct 2024 07:00:00 +0000https://www.thestackspodcast.com/2024/10/09/ep-340-jesselyn-cook65d2b7a49de6215855aa3aaa:66084694f1e135566828a41a:67031d3dc37ad01809bbf9c6

Journalist and author Jesselyn Cook joins The Stacks this week to discuss her new book, The Quiet Damage: QAnon and the Destruction of the American Family. In this episode, we dive into the origins of QAnon, how the conspiracy theory has evolved since its inception in 2017, and why certain individuals are more vulnerable to these beliefs. Jesselyn also breaks down how to approach conversations with loved ones who have fallen into the QAnon rabbit hole, offering insight into the far-reaching effects conspiracy theories have on our relationships and communities.

The Stacks Book Club pick for October is The Nickel Boys by Colson Whitehead. We will discuss the book on October 30th with Franklin Leonard returning as our guest.

LISTEN NOW

Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Google Podcasts | Overcast | Stitcher | Transcript

  

Everything we talk about on today’s episode can be found below in the show notes and on Bookshop.org and Amazon.

To support The Stacks and find out more from this week’s sponsors, click here.

Connect with Jesselyn: Instagram | Twitter | Website
Connect with The Stacks: Instagram | Twitter | Shop | Patreon | Goodreads | Substack | Subscribe

To contribute to The Stacks, join The Stacks Pack, and get exclusive perks, check out our Patreon page. If you prefer to support the show with a one time contribution go to paypal.me/thestackspod.

The Stacks participates in affiliate programs. We receive a small commission when products are purchased through links on this website.

TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

 

Traci Thomas 0:08

Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Traci Thomas, and today I am so excited to welcome Jessalyn cook to the show. Jessalyn is an award winning investigative journalist whose work often covers the intersection of politics, technology and extremism. Her new book is called The quiet damage qanon and the destruction of the American family. It offers a vivid and harrowing exploration of five American families whose lives have been torn apart by conspiracy theories today. Jessalyn and I talk about what exactly is qanon. How can we help our family members who are inside of it and why she wanted to focus on telling the stories of these five families. Don't forget, our book club pick for October is the nickel boys by Colson Whitehead. We will be discussing the book with Franklin Leonard on Wednesday, October 30. Everything we talk about on each episode of the stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. If you love this podcast and you want inside access to it, you can head to patreon.com/the, stacks and join the stacks pack, that is our bookish community, which is just $5 a month and gives you access to our Discord, our monthly virtual book club meetups, our bonus episodes and a lot more. Plus, you get to know that by joining the stacks pack, you are making it possible for me to make the stacks every single week. A fun perk of the stacks pack is that you get a shout out on this very podcast. So here's a huge thank you to Judy Larrabee, NWC, Laurene Westcott, UK Leonie, elle Newby and Kara Wagner. Thank you all so much for joining the stacks pack. And for those of you who love books, want to support the show, but maybe don't want to be part of a virtual book club or whatever, you can still get my hot takes, bookish opinions, find out events that I've got coming up, and support this podcast by going to Traci thomas.substack.com and subscribing to my newsletter. Again, that's Traci thomas.substack.com Okay, thank you all so much for your support, and now it's time for my conversation with Jessalyn cook.

All right, everybody, we are joined today by the author of a book that I picked up, sort of because I'm nosy, and then about, I don't know, 50 pages in was like, Well, gotta see if we can get jessely cook on the show to talk about this book, The quiet damage qanon and the destruction of the American family. It worked out. Jesslyn is here. So JESSELYN, welcome to the stacks.

Jesselyn Cook 2:33

I'm so glad to be here. Thanks for having me.

Traci Thomas 2:35

I'm so excited, I have to tell you, so you're sort of like our first kind of topical guest of the month of October, and I'm sort of focusing on, like, election related things, but, like, I'm not a political person. I mean, I am political, but I'm not, like, I'm a book person. So I'm like, I don't really want to do politics, but I really want to talk about things that are, like, on top of mind. And as I was reading your book, I was like, this is the perfect place to start. So I'm really thrilled you're here for folks who don't know. Will you just tell them a little bit like 30 seconds or so about the book?

Jesselyn Cook 3:06

Sure. So the book tells the stories of five American families from very different walks of life. It's nonfiction. It's very deeply reported. I spent years writing about these people, and each family has at least one member who has gone deep down the conspiracy theory rabbit hole all the way to qanon. And what I wanted to do in this book was document what this does on a social, human level, try to understand how even ordinary, very educated people can come to Believe the unbelievable, and show how it impacts everyone around them, their families. And I think there's been so much good reporting on the harm that mis and disinformation has done to our democracy and our public health, but less what it's done to families and everyday people. So that's what I set out to do in this book.

Traci Thomas 3:52

It's so captivating. You just mentioned something, and I'm really curious, do all conspiracy theories eventually lead to qanon, like, if you're susceptible to one, does that mean that, like, you could be susceptible to like the qanon?

Jesselyn Cook 4:06

You know, qanon is so interesting because it did turn into this catch all conspiracy theory where you're totally right, like all different threads of conspiracy theories can land you there because it is the ultimate super conspiracy theory that kind of opens its arms and it welcomes everyone who wants to question the powers that be. So, in a way, yes, I think so.

Traci Thomas 4:26

It's like it's a safe space for conspiracy theorists, for people who don't know, and even for people who think they know. Can you sort of define qanon? Because I feel like it also gets used as a catch all for anything from like a conservative to like a person who's like gone off the deep end in politics, but it actually means something specific. I

Jesselyn Cook 4:49

think if you were to talk to a qanon believer, they might give you a version that's a little more vanilla and digestible and just say like qanon represents a movement that stands against corruption and stands against. Evil and stands for the safety of children, which, you know, we can all get on board with all of those things. I hope

Traci Thomas 5:04

we love Safe Kids, right?

Jesselyn Cook 5:07

But in reality, qanon goes much deeper and much darker. The core tenet of the conspiracy theory is basically Donald Trump and this anonymous government insider known only as Q online have been waging secret war against the so called Deep State, which is all these liberal elites working from the shadows, very famous, powerful people, from billionaires to the royal family to government leaders to celebrities in Hollywood, all working together to bring about the downfall of humanity and control us all. And in the more grim parts of this conspiracy theory, we've got, you know, Democrats murdering babies and harvesting their blood and using blood as an immortality elixir. So it goes into some really weird, strange places. And you know, a lot, there's a lot of pedophilia, a lot of cannibalism, Satan worshiping, and it spirals into everything from, like, really wild anti vaccine conspiracy theories to chemtrails to, you know, a little bit of everything, depending on your interests. It's got it

Traci Thomas 6:16

all. Who's in charge here.

Jesselyn Cook 6:18

So that's what's really interesting about qanon, a lot of people have likened it to a cult, and it certainly has some cult like tendencies, because qanon is not a hobby for people. It is a full blown obsession. You don't dip your toe on it. But unlike a cult, there isn't really a leader, at least not anymore. Q the person or people at the center of this, this online shadowy figure, has gone dark for a while, and Q used to put out these little nuggets of Intel, so called intel on message boards, where Anons, the people who consider themselves to be Q non believers, would visit and try to decode Q's messages and think that they were getting some little bits of information about the coming Great Awakening, which is qanon lingo for the fall of the deep state, when prosperity is brought to all of course, right? But for a while now qanon, you don't hear as much about it anymore. The ideas have really been normalized and diluted and kind of blended into our mainstream politics. But there has not been a central leader, the ideas have just persisted on their own. Okay,

Traci Thomas 7:25

I It's funny watching you talk about this, because you're like, sort of, like, rolling your eyes a little bit, and I'm like, You must be so fucking tired of having to explain this, like nonsense to people, because you did decide to write this book, and then you write it, and then you have to, like, go on a press tour about it and like, report about it, and keep saying, like, sucking the blood of children and cannibalism. And I just, I feel for you. You know,

Jesselyn Cook 7:48

it's interesting. I definitely am happy to be taking a break from qanon stuff right now, and not, like, deep in the reporting trenches of it. But yeah, it's, um, it's pretty gruesome, and, like, on a surface level, kind of funny, but it absolutely does destroy lives. So it's like, I don't know, sometimes I roll my eyes at it. Sometimes I just feel like deeply depressed by all of it. And, you know, sometimes you just have to laugh at it,

Traci Thomas 8:07

right? I mean, I feel deeply depressed. I felt not deeply depressed, but I did feel very sad for the people in your book. For sure, you follow these five families, and like you said, it's a range, like you have one, one woman who, like, goes qanon is like, a Bernie Sanders supporter, and then you have these, like, two sisters who are black. And I was like, didn't know black people could be in qanon, which we're gonna get to, but I wanted to know sort of, why you wanted to tell this story in this way. Why not just, like, talk to a bunch of people, as opposed to focus on five people? Or, like, how were you thinking about crafting this narrative for readers?

Jesselyn Cook 8:44

I felt that this would be the most effective way to explain in the greatest depth that I could. I, you know, my editor and I initially talked about focusing on one to three families, which felt a little limited in scope. Because one thing I really wanted to make clear in which you alluded to, is there is no one type of qanon believer, despite the stereotypes, like people from all across the political spectrum, people from different races, generations, classes, can be vulnerable to conspiracy theories and kind of falling into an alternate reality. And so I wanted to be able to capture that with multiple narratives. But I didn't want to just make it a book of a bunch of little anecdotes from people, like hundreds of people, because I, you know, I think powerful storytelling can really immerse you in a narrative and make you care about the characters. And part of this was, I didn't set out to demonize conspiracy theorists or judge them. I wanted to understand them. And I think you kind of have to stick along for the ride and understand who these people are before something like qanon, and how they come to qanon and what it does to them and those around them, to really get that full picture. So five families was maybe a little ambitious, but I think we pulled it off and we, you know, we get to see that broad spectrum of types of people who. To be drawn to these ideas.

Traci Thomas 10:01

How did you decide on the five families, and at what point in their qanon journey did you get to them? Because there is, of course, an arc in the book where we sort of hear the beginnings of how people found qanon and their families and like those relationships. But in a lot of cases, like towards the end, there are some sorts of resolutions, whether that's like getting out of qanon, or like not talking to your family anymore, or whatever. So I'm wondering at what point you entered into these stories, and how you knew these were the right stories to tell.

Jesselyn Cook 10:33

In all five storylines, I started chronicling the stories once the qanon obsession had already taken hold. I start the actual book before that happens. You go back in time, and we meet people free Q anon and come to understand who they were. But I met these characters. I guess there's kind of a variety of stages. I you know, some of the people who I speak to very deeply in the book were qanon believers themselves, or were still were when I was telling the story, some come out, and some were their loved ones kind of looking into the rabbit hole, trying to pull their loved one back to reality. And so I think the common thread through all five storylines of where I met these characters was it was a very painful chapter for all of them. I didn't really meet any of them at a part where they had come to a happy place or come to an okay place. Every single person in this book who I talked to, we I met them when they were going through probably one of the darkest times of their lives. And so it was a challenge in putting this book together to kind of be able to get all those pieces. Because I think when you have someone you love so deeply, go become a stranger, effectively, a stranger to someone you can't recognize anymore. It can almost your memory gets warped a little bit, and it's hard to necessarily be able to share who this person was before they changed. And so it was, you know, had to. It took a lot of patience and careful reporting to make sure I'm getting an accurate portrayal of everyone.

Traci Thomas 12:02

What do you think most sort of left leaning, liberal type people get wrong about qanon, and what do you think most conservatives or right leaning people are getting wrong about qanon?

Jesselyn Cook 12:14

Good question. Well, on the left, I think there is a tendency to assume that conspiracy theories in general, that's a right wing problem, where, above that, we're not. You know, a lot of people on the left have pointed at Q and on and laughed and called them stupid and awful and worse. And that is just not true. You know, from writing this book, I can tell you, like, if two people encounter a conspiracy theory and one falls for it, and one doesn't it is absolutely, not necessarily the person with the lower IQ who is going to be drawn in that's really just it's not a factor, as much as you might think it's what I've come to learn through the reporting, is that it's probably the person who is less fulfilled in their life and who has a hole and is lacking some kind of deep human need that conspiracy theory fills for them. So that's one kind of assumption I think the left gets wrong, is that it's just stupid, crazy people. That is not true. And even, you know, with the assassination attempts on Donald Trump's life, we saw that it certainly was not just the right who indulges in conspiracy theories. We saw a lot of left wing ones as well. And on the right, I think it's interesting to see how the right has dealt with qanon, because at first, for a while, as qanon was really gaining popularity over the pandemic, there was a lot of the right that kind of embraced qanon, and even Donald Trump kind of tacitly welcomed them and certainly did not disavow them. And, you know, it almost seemed like the narrative was, we're all proud to be conspiracy theorists, because the left is wrong and we're, you know, we'll be proven right eventually. But now there's kind of been this shift where the right will say, like, qanon, the left is just overhyping that it wasn't a big deal. Like, this is a tiny minority pool. That's not true either. Qanon, well, again, it's not as big of a name anymore. The ideas have blended in because they have been normalized and kind of even adopted by some of our elected leaders, and so it adds a lot of legitimacy to these claims, and not maybe the most extreme ones. We're not hearing as much about baby blood anymore, which is nice, but we are seeing words like pedophile being thrown around completely baselessly, which is like a very Q anon esque thing, just being adopted as kind of like an almost normal political rhetoric these days. That's really disgusting. What happened

Traci Thomas 14:33

to make Q anon sort of not be as big of a thing because, like, you're talking about some of the politicians doing it. But another thing that I feel like I've seen, and maybe this is because I'm just extremely online, is like, influencery people, sort of like mommy bloggers, sort of adopting some of the qanon talking points. And I'm wondering, like, if that is also part part of it, but it. And if so, what else has made it like? Is it that people were making too much fun of them? So it was like, you don't want to be part of this, like, because something's clearly changed. It used to be like going on, and we were talking about that fucking pizza parlor all the time and like, all and now it's sort of like a joke. Talked about more in a joking way.

Jesselyn Cook 15:19

You're totally right. The mommy blogger thing was just so mind boggling to watch unfold over the pandemic. Is fucking crazy. Yeah, all these very, very mainstream influencers would kind of pivot from talking about like fashion and smoothie recipes to suddenly talking about like the deep state and all these evil forces. But what that did was really sanitize qanon and bring it to new audiences and spread it in ways that felt less insidious, and it kind of shed the branding. They weren't saying qanon. They were just again, bringing these ideas and making them seem a little less out there. And so that's part of it. It's just been spread by like over the pandemic, qanon really broke up from the online fringes and into other communities, and especially like wellness and natural natural wellness communities and like communities that are kind of skeptical of the medical establishment and outside of these online fringes. And so they kind of spread in their own right without this branding. But then also, before Q went dark, I think Q himself. We could talk, if you want, about who Q might have been, but posted that the best way to spread these ideas is to stop saying Q anon. So he actually instructed followers like, you know, let's not use this word anymore. Let's just carry the theories out. And so that is what a lot of his so called Digital soldiers did. And so here we are today. Who

Traci Thomas 16:46

is qanon? Who do you think I know you mentioned? I know there's one person who's named in the book.

Jesselyn Cook 16:52

So there is some pretty compelling evidence laid out in the HBO series, q into the storm, which suggests that Q. So I think the Q anon account, which is not quite the right word, but we'll call it that the Q anon account online, I think, changed hands a bit throughout its tenure, but it ended up with a father and son, Ron and Jim Watkins, who ran a chan and then Akin. And so Ron Watkins even had a congressional run here in the States. He was overseas for most of qanon years in which it was active. The Q account was active. But I think it doesn't necessarily matter who Q was, because even, you know, even when Ron Watkins name was brought forth, qanon believers did not, you know, accept that. They rarely accept evidence. They don't take anything that's up at their narrative,

Traci Thomas 17:44

right? Okay, let's talk about that. There's this great word I'd never heard before, apophenia. Is that how you say it? Yeah, yeah. Talk about what the fuck that is, how it works. It is like, when I read that in the book, I was like, Oh my gosh, my life has changed.

Jesselyn Cook 18:02

Yeah, it's really interesting, and it kind of underscores how qanon operates and how it became so successful in spreading its ideas. But apophenia is basically the human brain is hardwired to search for patterns. It's what we all do, and so sometimes we connect dots that have no business being connected, and we try to prove correlations when there are none. It's just randomness. And so what qanon does, and why it was so effective, is that instead of um laying out evidence and allowing people to come to conclusions based on evidence, it instead lays out conclusions and then impresses upon its followers that they have to go out and find evidence themselves to support that evidence. So they're like connecting all these dots to try to support conclusions that Q has laid out. And so, you know, I think some examples I give in the book is we've got all these accusations by q that Hollywood is full of pedophiles. So qanon believers would go and look at Disney movies, and they would try to find, like, phallic shaped objects and Disney movies. And there's one that's so ridiculous, it's like a side view of Minnie Mouse and her puff sleeve dress. And I guess maybe sort of looks like a penis as a silhouette. And so qanon believers will look at that and be like, see, there's a penis in this Disney movie. Obviously, Disney is trying to indoctrinate our children and, like, groom them and show them genitals. And so that's one example of many, many, many, where qanon believers will just pull together whatever little bits of so called proof they can to support a bigger narrative.

Traci Thomas 19:40

Okay, I'm not in qanon, but I am old enough to remember when us kids did this Disney thing too. There is a penis in the marriage scene at the end of Little Mermaid. And when I read that in your book, I was like, did I invent qanon? Because I remembered. Doing this, like in the 90s as a kid, where you would, like, there's, like, a line in Aladdin, like, there's all these little things. But I just think it's so interesting that, like, this thing that teenagers did, or like middle schoolers did, is now, like, oh, Deep State. I don't know, it just really hit

Jesselyn Cook 20:18

me. No, yeah, a lot of it is really childish and basic and elemental, but it's, you know, these people become so obsessive over bringing about the storm and the Great Awakening, and you know, all of qanon promises for a better world. And qanon is not just about observing conspiracy theories unfold. It's very participatory, which is what makes it almost fun and addictive like a video game, because you get to be a hero. You get to be part of this collective online movement bringing about justice as they think. And so when you're scouring the web for clues and trying to support these narratives, you get to be part of the solution, and that's exciting. And

Traci Thomas 20:58

the participatory part is just finding the clues. Is just saying, I found a penis on Minnie Mouse like and sharing it with sharing it with the boards, or whatever the message boards. Is that what you mean by participatory or there? Or is it about like recruiting other people? Or is it, is there other participatory elements?

Jesselyn Cook 21:17

There are a lot, I mean, absolutely, looking for clues and decoding. So all of the Q drops were very coded. They were never straightforward that he would put in random numbers and would put in like, little I don't know, random phrases that Q and unbelievers would sit and think like, Well, this must mean something like, let me dig around online until I find meaning in Q's words. But also, it could mean harassing journalists, trying to, like, I don't know, shut down a mainstream narrative, a mainstream media narrative, by trying to dox a journalist, you know, Q would kind of send followers out to do a lot of really engaging they would call it work, research and work. So whether it's like spreading ideas, recruiting newcomers, attacking journalists or politicians or anyone who's considered to be part of the deep state, or, Yes, doing this so called decoding.

Traci Thomas 22:11

I want to talk a little bit about the black qanon people, because, again, I had no clue I was like, for example, you have the Bernie Sanders supporter who goes into qanon. And for me, I was like, Okay, this is hard to believe. But like, I can follow this line of, like, being sort of like an outsider to the political establishment and moving in that direction. But to me as a black person, I was like, I can't, does not compute. But you talk about how in 2016 Q anon actually focused, or, like, the misinformation campaigns were focused towards black voters. Why were black voters so important in 2016 and and, like, what was because it's, I mean, we're not that big of a portion of the population. And like we overwhelmingly vote democratic. And my sense is that within qanon, regardless of what your political affiliation is, the hope is that you will vote for Donald Trump, because he is like the savior of the thing. So I'm just wondering, why black voters? Why not Asian voters or Latina voters, or what was the blackness of it all.

Jesselyn Cook 23:20

I think it felt for a while that black voters were out of the reach of the GOP and that, you know, the Russian disinformation week campaign we saw, which really, as you noted, like aggressively targeted black voters, was not meant, I think, to flip them into Democrats, or, sorry, rather, into Republicans. I think it was just to try to try to suppress that vote and keep them from showing up for Hillary Clinton. Of course, Russian disinformation campaign was trying to get Donald Trump elected. And so what I wanted to convey in that reporting was, I think there it's a really, really interesting storyline, the one you mentioned with the black pair of sisters, where one goes into qanon. And I wanted to acknowledge several factors going on there. And so it is not just black people who have ended up in qanon That's been really confounding, but also like lot of marginalized communities, which is bizarre on its surface level, because so many of these communities are also villainized by conspiracy theories. So how could they write them? And so one thing I wanted to point out is that marginalized communities so often are almost looked at as like political pawns, like a bunch of different disinformation campaigns target these communities specifically because they're either trying to suppress or activate their vote. And so these communities are dealing with an outsized level of Disinformation and Propaganda theories, and that absolutely does not mean that they believe all the stuff they're getting targeted with. I think that's probably not true. But when you're getting so much bullshit like said to you on these social platforms, it becomes harder and harder to know what to believe and who to trust at all, and so. It is probably very effective in keeping people from voting, and a lot of data would suggest that as well. And then the other reason so many marginalized folks, like kind of a surprising number of marginalized folks, will end up in movements like qanon, is because conspiracy theories really demand a sense of powerlessness. You know, people can be conditioned to feel powerless. We have some characters in the book who are very privileged, wealthy, white and even though they have no reason to feel powerless, they'll watch Fox News and they'll be fed this rhetoric over and over and over again that all these evil forces are up to get them, and they'll feel bad for themselves. But marginalized communities already, in so many cases, have very legitimate reasons to feel powerless. They may have been oppressed for decades or generations or centuries. And so this distrust that conspiracy theories thrive on is already built in because these communities have good reasons not to trust people in power. And so it really preys on that those feelings, and you know, even in qanon propaganda and some of the anti vaccine conspiracy theories we saw blow up over the pandemic were really pulling on the strings of historical trauma, and we received and are referencing some of the really horrific medical experiments that the government had waged against black communities in the past, kind of using those historical pains to spread new fears, unfounded fears, and with these sisters. So the story tells there these two black sisters, of course, one, they grew up in extreme poverty and hardship, faced so much racism. And what's fascinating is one goes on to become a Black Lives Matter activist, racial justice activist, the other goes into qanon, and it's totally confusing to the other one. There it's they're completely different paths. And, you know, I think what one sister finds in racial justice activism is a sense of purpose and a sense of belonging. And she finds her voice, and she wants to make change. And in a weird way, qanon does give that to the other sister. She grows up feeling like she's never going to have a place in the world, like the system has failed her, which it has, and this kind of like disenfranchised anger she holds onto. Qanon gives her a home for that. And in a very weird way, I think qanon almost gave her a level of hope, because when she would look at all the horrible things that had happened in her life, you know, the one kind of big factor there, of course, is systemic racism. And I don't know that she felt that could ever be conquered, it felt like huge, unbeatable problem. But qanon is really good at kind of this binary of good versus evil. The evil is the deep state. They gave you, like people to point to an enemy to hate, and they say, Yes, it can be conquered. We are going to bring down the Deep State. We are going to bring about the Great Awakening, and then your life will be better. And I think that was like a more appealing narrative to her than, let's like, solve the problem of systemic racism, you know,

Traci Thomas 28:06

right? Yeah, that's really interesting. And I think, like, the power and the purpose of it, and I think, well, actually, I'm gonna, we're gonna go to break and I'm gonna

ask you this next question,

yeah? All right, we are back, I guess where I'm going with this like power and purpose through line is sort of to the community part of it, because I think one of the things I noticed in all of the families is that each person, or people who joined qanon sort of found community there, but it was in direct like conflict with their in real life communities. And I'm wondering, like, if you have any sense of how an online community can sort of Trump, for lack of a better word, a in real life community. I mean, we have one, we have one story of an elderly couple, and they're like, living in like, a group home area, like a neighborhood, right, with like, other people. And like, they will invite them around, and it's like, I get it, but I my sense is that also, like, in not being invited around, it allowed the wife to, like, go deeper. But I'm wondering, at what point we see that people turn their backs on the people they know in person for this, like online conspiracy community, and

Jesselyn Cook 29:29

that's something that's so heartbreaking and hard to understand about conspiracy theory obsession, because yes, people throw out beautiful relationships, they disown their kids. They, you know, do a lot worse to their own lives as well, but they do push away and isolate themselves from their own communities, and it does vary based on circumstances, but in the example you gave with this elderly woman, so just some quick backstory on her, like she she's retired and. She's nearing her 80s, and her life has changed. I think with age, our lives change a lot, and there's this assumption that boomers are more prone to spreading fake news because they are so called digital immigrants. They didn't grow up with social media, so they don't understand it. And yes, that's absolutely a factor, and we get into that in the book. But a bigger part of this puzzle that I think has been left out of these conversations is that you some of these, like basic human needs, we have start to fade with age. And so in the case of Doris, this elderly woman, she was a career woman. She found a lot of pride in her career. She was very beautiful. And you know, as she got older, naturally, her looks began to fade. She left behind her job to settle down her mobility lesson so she wasn't able to get out of the house as much, and she was just finding herself spending a lot of time sitting at home alone. And she did have a community around her. She was in a community of older folks as well, but the things that kind of like draw people from bed every day for her that was starting to fade away. And so in qanon, which you know, her entry point, she had a traumatic medical misdiagnosis, which, like, fueled her distrust of doctors, and that was kind of preyed on online, and she gets pulled into the qanon territory. But qanon, for her, was not really about the information itself. It was a place where she got to feel like she mattered. Again. She showed up every day. She would rant and rave about Bill Gates trying to kill us all with so called clutch shots, seen as she like to call it, and it wasn't, you know, she felt like she was doing good. She felt like she was accepted, and these people online really rallied around her and valued her and embraced her, and it felt again, almost like she was an activist. This was a job with no barrier to entry. She just had to log on to Facebook every day. And so it fueled that purpose that had faded away with age and time. And so she does isolate herself from her real life community as going deeper into this rabbit hole. But I think for a lot of people who go down these paths, there's already an existing problem, and they don't have a super fulfilled, happy life, where they have a strong sense of belonging and an excellent community. And you know, those are the people, no matter their intelligence or IQ or whatever, those are the people who, I think are more, who are closer to being immune to these kinds of ideas.

Traci Thomas 32:20

You talk about a study in the book where folks who like watch Fox News and like, start to go down the like Fox News rabbit hole. Maybe it's not full Q Anon, but like, start to move in that conservative thinking direction, and like, open to some of those conspiracies that they share on that on that channel, that if they switch to CNN, can, like, be rescued from their from their thinking. I just want to know more about that, because I think a lot of people listening, and you do get to this towards the end of the book, like, I think a lot of people listening are like, What do I do about my mom or my uncle or my neighbor who's like, down the Fox News rabbit hole. And, you know, there's one example of, like, how people handle it in the book, which I don't know, it's not really a spoiler. We can talk about it, but, um, but like, is it simple enough of just, like, putting them on a parental lock and blocking God's news and, like, get your news somewhere else. Cousin John,

Jesselyn Cook 33:19

that study was really interesting. And yeah, like you said, some Fox News watchers were paid to switch to CNN for a while, and their views started to change, which was really fascinating. And I think does offer some hope that, you know, we're our minds are malleable, and we can change our opinions. And I think part of that speaks to this echo chamber effect, where people, you know, if they hear something repeated enough, they will start to believe that it's true, whether it is or not. And so we see that on social media, where we get algorithmically drawn into these echo chambers. But also, if you're watching Fox News like 10 hours today, as some people do, they're just these narratives are going to start to become more and more compelling to you, and vice versa, CNN and so another factor, I think that plays a role, maybe a bigger role, than has been acknowledged generally, is these parasocial dynamics, like when you are engaging with an influencer online or watching Fox News, you do start to become attached to these people on the other side of the screen, and you trust them and you Like them, and whatever they say, because it's coming from them, you're more receptive to it. And so I think it's good to consume information from a diversity of voices and not get too narrowly focused on a handful of people spouting the same ideas, no matter where on the political spectrum you fall, because again, this trust that you place in people, whether you realize that's happening or not, can become so powerful that when someone you maybe even idolize online, says conspiracy theory, it just doesn't sound like a conspiracy theory to you. It sounds like fact, right?

Traci Thomas 34:53

And what do we do with the conspiracists in our lives? Like. Like, what is the what is effective? What works besides changing the channel, like, how can we communicate? Because, I mean, that's a huge part of the book, is that the people who have joined qanon and have gone down that path are almost incapable of communicating with the people in their lives who have not, and it's very tense. It is very like we've talked about isolating. It often drives them deeper, both sides, deeper into onto their side. So I'm wondering, like, what have you found that is effective and and does saying, like, I'm not going to talk to you anymore, mom, work, or if what we're talking about about feeling like there's things missing from your life is what makes you susceptible, that feels like, maybe not the best way to do it, but also like I don't want to have dinner with my mom and talk about baby blood all night. So what? What is? What do you think you're the expert? Help us?

Jesselyn Cook 35:58

So one thing I'll say is that facts can't fix this. And I know that sounds very backwards, because the impulse, I see, a very understandable impulse for family members who watch a loved one get sucked into these really delusional belief systems, they want to, like, rescue them, and they they hear them spouting falsehood, so they want to bring them facts and just debunk and fact check and, like, shake them out of these beliefs, and that doesn't work. So so so often it doesn't work. It can actually make things worse, as we see in the book. And so I think you need to recognize, again, that conspiracy theories, for these hardcore conspiracy theorists, it's not really about finding the truth. They may call themselves truth seekers, but at the end of the day, they're not actually interested in finding the truth, they just want to feel better. And so I think trying to debunk is tackling the symptom, not the cause, and trying to get someone out of this, you need to understand how and why they got in, which is not easy. But you know, once you can recognize that they're not actually just trying to get to the bottom of all this, like so called Deep State corruption, they're just trying to heal some part of them. Once you can see, like just Q Anon, do conspiracy theories give my loved one a sense of purpose, a sense of belonging, a sense of agency, a sense of hope, whatever that is, and however hard it is to identify that that's where the progress can begin, because that's where you need to focus your love and your healing. And I also just want to acknowledge, for anyone who's listening to this thinking like, that's nice, but you know, my mom went full blown qanon, and she's horrible to me now. She calls me horrible names. She says horrible racist, anti semitic things. I hear that and I see you and I get that, because qanon can twist people and bring out a really ugly side of them. And of course, we see it in the book. And for some people, the answer is stepping away and saying, This person can't be saved. It's not worth the pain it's going to cause me to try to bring them back. But for those of you who have a love on going through this and you really are committed to trying to get them out, try to, instead of address the falsehoods they're spewing, try to address whatever need they're trying to satisfy. And so if it is, say, a sense of belonging, try to help them find community offline, away from qanon, if it's a sense of purpose, maybe get them involved in volunteering or a more fulfilling job. And I know these are, you know, easier said than done, but that is what's going to make a difference. And we do see some happier endings in the book, where once those underlying needs are fulfilled, the conspiracy theories start to fall away, because there's not needed anymore. You know, they don't need to fill that hole anymore.

Traci Thomas 38:35

Do you feel like qanon is having as big of an impact on the 2024 election, as it did in 2016 and 2020

Jesselyn Cook 38:44

not with the same name recognition, no, but certainly in terms of just the ideas and their impact. Yes, I think it has been shaping this election cycle from the very beginning and kind of pausing us to have these moral panics over issues that are being blown away out of proportion, and, you know, even all the breath and air that's been wasted by our political figures talking about like the so called Radical trans agenda, or, you know, this hysteria over pedophilia, as if there are pedophiles lurking around every corner ready to snatch your kids off the street like this is the impact of qanon being felt without the label of qanon. And you know, we've seen iterations of this throughout history, but, yeah, it's it's really almost worse to see it thriving in this insidious way without being labeled as an extreme fringe thing. It's just normalized and diluted and very effective.

Traci Thomas 39:45

How, okay? How did it start? Because I recognize that, like Trump is named as like a figurehead in this thing, but I'm just really shocked by how quickly it all took off. If it was like. Contingent on him. So were there like, seeds being planted in 2012 2014 whatever that led to the moment of his announcement that, like, made it all come together. I just, like, doesn't quite make sense to me. Like the big origins?

Jesselyn Cook 40:18

Yeah. I mean, I think there were seeds growing for even well beyond that, like this, we kind of saw how effective Trump's populist rhetoric was when he came to office, and I think that's the same kind of sentiment that really allowed qanon to flourish, but where we really started to see these high impact conspiracy theories more recently, I think it was with Pizzagate, which actually was just pre Q anon in 20 Oh,

Traci Thomas 40:41

that's not actually qanon. No, that's actually, so that was 2016 and it really, you know, it may as well blend together. But I thought that was the

Jesselyn Cook 40:49

first hue drop. Was actually october 2017 So technically, post qanon Just occurs feeding off that same kind of energy and hysteria around saving children and stuff, and so I think part of this, part of the reason qanon really took off was, again, the pandemic created perfect conditions for conspiracy theories, because we had these information voids. We were people were terrified, and qanon swept in with its own narratives and twisted facts, and really took advantage of this ideal breeding ground for fear and conspiracy theories. And then part of it is also, like, probably just Trump's ego. He in addition to, like, recognizing that qanon represented a good portion of his base, and so he wanted to pander to them a bit. You can hear in the way he's spoken about qanon, like, oh I he said, I know they like me very much. Like, you know, oh yeah, things about the man, what kind of crazy shit you're promoting. And so he really did legitimize these ideas. He breathed new life into them. And then his whole kind of ecosystem of far right and right wing influencers and the media circus just ran with it. And you know, we're still feeling the effects, and I think we will be feeling the effects for a long time.

Traci Thomas 42:06

Okay, this just came into my head. Hear me out. Qanon is fan fiction. Sci Fi fan fiction. It's like, choose your own adventure. Sci Fi fanfic. It's like, Donald Trump is the leader, and he's gonna save the world. But it's like, do you want to go with kids? Do you want to go with pedophiles like, find the clues, figure out the ending. People love that shit. Okay, this is a question about you, which is in the book, one of the sons of one of the women who goes into qanon, who was she was a lawyer. He's trying to be a lawyer. He tries to help by, like, going in after her, to like, get, like, be in the thick of it, and it's not great for him. Mental health wise, I'm wondering the same about you. You are in the fucking qanon Shit. You're researching. You're talking to people. I have to imagine, you're probably like on some of these boards, like reading what's happening, seeing what's up, how did you protect yourself? What were you doing to take care of JESSELYN as you're reporting and hearing all this? Because if all the things are true that the more that you hear a thing, the more susceptible you are. What How did you protect honestly, I

Jesselyn Cook 43:18

haven't talked about this a ton, just because I feel like the stories in this book are so devastating. I, like, didn't want to bring myself into it, because it's like, my shit is not that bad compared to what these people have gone through. But I will just say, like my mental health throughout this process was horrible, and there were, like, probably a lot of factors for that. I mean, these, these were deeply traumatized people. Some of the tragedies in the book unfolded in the period I was reporting like, you know, slight spoiler. But one of the characters I was set to interview, he died the day I was supposed to talk to him. And so I never met that man. And so, you know, it, it was very hard. And I also happened in the middle of all this, I had an extremely premature baby and ended up in the hospital for months out of the country because he was country because he was born when I was traveling. And so we got stuck there. And then we had to, like, to get him citizenship to bring him back home, and we had to get, like, our Congress person involved. It was horrible. So it was like a little bit of personal life craziness too. That was bad postpartum depression, which also just made it harder to deal with. But I think I don't have good advice for other writers recording on dark stories, because I did it horribly and did not take good care of myself. And like I also got laid off. I was at NBC when I was doing a lot of this, and then my whole team got laid off, and I got back from my extended maternity leave, so I just Oh my gosh. It was like, not a bright chapter of my life. But, you know, I am proud of how the stories came together, and I did find a lot of fulfillment and doing that. And like it was, it was kind of like a North Star, knowing that what I was doing would ultimately, hopefully be helpful to a lot of people, but I would recommend to other people, you know, get therapy, have a good support system around you. And you know. Exercise, get out of bed. I did a lot of writing. Well, a lot of it was written from the NICU where my son was in the hospital because I was just stuck in a chair all day. But yeah, I find exercise helps a lot. So hopefully you can learn from all the backwards stuff I did

Traci Thomas 45:16

that is wild. I'm so sorry that that is all tied up in this book for you. Speaking of where you wrote the book, this is a question I always ask, which is, how do you write? We found out that you wrote a lot of this in the NICU. But also, how often do you listen to music or not? Do you have snacks or beverages? I guess, in addition to where you actually wrote this book, where do you normally like to write if you're not going through a major life event.

Jesselyn Cook 45:41

So this book, I think, fortunately, I got to do a lot of the reporting, pretty intensively for like, the first year of writing this, I was just traveling over the country talking to these families, you know, and so by the time I ended up trapped in the NICU for months, I already had a lot of material to work with. So it was maybe even helpful for my productivity to be stuck in a chair force, right? So normally, though, yeah, I think I wish I was one of those people who got up really early and just sat down with a T and started writing, but like my husband will tell you, I'm a night owl. I do a lot of my writing at like, three in the morning, and I now, so I'm doing a fellowship at Harvard right now, and I'm trying to just continue writing for my own like keeping sharpened stuff, and it's such a beautiful campus. So with the weather still being nice, I'll just bring my laptop, find a spot outside the yard and do writing there. I snack a lot.

Traci Thomas 46:36

I talk about it.

Jesselyn Cook 46:39

My weakness is probably chocolate covered almonds, so I eat many of those. And, you know, i running really helps to clear my head, so that kind of balances that out, thankfully. But

Traci Thomas 46:50

do you run like distance outside? Is that your thing or your treadmill? Person outside

Jesselyn Cook 46:55

when I can? I grew up in Canada, so half the year is basically just lost to snow. So I you know, but when I can run outside, I love to do that. And I got advice from another writer, which made a lot of sense to me. He said he will sit down and write 500 to 1000 words, or the first half the day, and then the second half he will just edit that chunk. And at first that seemed like a really slow way to work, but then I look back at my own progress, and I was like, you know, there were some days I got hung up on two sentences and could not move past that. So if I forced myself to write 1000 words a day, or 500 words a day, and then gave myself the second half of the day to just agonize over those 500 words, probably still would have progressed at a good speed, right?

Traci Thomas 47:39

How do you or what's a word you can never spell correctly on the first try?

Jesselyn Cook 47:43

God, I wrote the word Adrenochrome too many times in this book, which is the baby blood thing. Hydroxychloroquine is in the book a bunch of times. Definitely screwed that one up every single time. Those are probably a couple.

Traci Thomas 48:02

They're so specific to this book. What? Where did the title come from? My

Jesselyn Cook 48:07

husband and I have a disagreement about this, because he takes credit for it, and I say, I don't think so.

Traci Thomas 48:13

We love we love a husband. Thank you, husband. I know you did it like, I'm

Jesselyn Cook 48:17

pretty sure I came up with that idea. And I'm like, I don't know, although writing the book proposal, I think we, I think I came up with the title toward the end of it, and it was a bit of a blur, but I just the quiet damage is I wanted to look at there's, there was so much noise surrounding qanon At the time, and it was like on all the late night talk shows, and like being talked about by all of our political leaders and conspiracy theories more generally, there was a lot of panic about them, and a lot of it is very do panic. But I wanted to look at the quiet damage, not what's going on to our democracy, but what's going on behind closed doors in the home.

Traci Thomas 48:51

And then what about the cover itself? Were you involved in that process? And if so, can you explain sort of what the vision is?

Jesselyn Cook 48:58

I wasn't and the way it always worked when I was, like, reporting stories at NBC or at HuffPost, is I would always get, like, some input on what the future art for the story would be. And I would always know it was coming for this. I didn't even know they were working on it. And I went by, my editor emailed me the cover, and I was like, God, I'm nervous to open this, because I don't, I don't know what it'll be. And I think they did a beautiful job. I mean, it's just, I think so, yeah, portrait of a father and son that's kind of torn and yeah, it just, it reminded me is that anybody from the book, it's not meant to be. I don't think the illustrator knew even the characters in the book, necessarily, but I it reminds me when I look at it, I think of Adam, the young aspiring lawyer, and then his father was lost to suicide. And yeah, it's really devastating. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 49:45

I just have a few more questions for you. One is that, is there anything that is not in the book that you wish could have been? Oh,

Jesselyn Cook 49:54

man, there were so many. I chose, literally from hundreds of stories, which five to future. Because I had so many people reach out to me with their stories, I've heard another reporting on this, and there were some, really, like, a lot of stuff get got left on the cutting room floor that I would have loved to have kept in but I think what this book left me with, have a lot of questions remaining from the story of the seven year old in this book who kind of follows his mother down the rabbit hole. And that's right, you know, I what I'm doing at Harvard right now. I'm working on a research project as part of my fellowship, and it's kind of picking up the baton, I think, and carrying it on about young people online like obviously, kids are getting online younger than they ever have before. The average age the Americans get a smartphone now is 11, and they're spending more time online than ever before, just hours and hours a day, and they're also traversing the most fucked up information landscape in our history, with like deep fakes and reality distorting algorithms and these very malicious influencers out to lie and profit. And if you're 11 on Facebook or Tiktok or wherever you are, probably not Facebook, so that's confusing. And even as a digital native, you aren't just born with the skills to navigate that. And so I what I want to study here is, you know what this is doing to kids, to their trust in their parents, their trust in their teachers, who are probably saying very different things from what they might be seeing on their phones, consuming and you know, as we saw with Jonah in the book, it's had a really devastating impact on his young life.

Traci Thomas 51:25

Do we have any sense of, like, what is happening to these kids who are the children of qanon? People like, I know we talk about Jonah in the book, and that's probably some of the most compelling stuff. But are you, have you seen? Are you hearing that? It's like all the kids of people who are qanon end up, like, sort of going down that path, because in the story, Jonah has a brother who seems less susceptible. So like, do we have any sense of how this like, what makes a kid susceptible? Like,

Jesselyn Cook 52:00

I don't know, we really don't. There's not, like I was almost surprised when I was doing this reporting how little data there was. And you know, Jonah is an extreme example. I don't imagine there are a ton of seven year old qanon believers out there. But right? You know, even on the less extreme version of that, like, I was looking at his Tiktok, and just like looking at his for you page, and it is crazy, like the curated bullshit being fed to this kid. And you know, it does. It's not that hard. I'm sure some people listening have gone down conspiracy theory rabbit holes on Tiktok out of entertainment. But when you don't have the critical thinking skills to discern real from false, because you're a little kid that is confusing and scary, and so many of these conspiracy theories center children as victims in really gruesome ways, and so there's not a lot that's known about what this is doing to young people. There's been research into media literacy, but I'm really interested in like, the social harms here. So I don't have the answers, but I do have a lot of questions.

Traci Thomas 52:53

I have almost five year old twins, and I have been able to indoctrinate them into supporting Kamala Harris, but it was very easy, and so I think about how like easy it is to to abuse your trust, your kids trust in you. I actually stopped doing it because it was so easy that I was like, I should explain more about who these two people are, instead of just being like, we like Kamala, you know? But I do. I did really think about that a lot of like, if I had different beliefs, how easy it would be. And I think, like, I think we know this, like, we see this with religion, how easy it is for kids to believe the stories, like, of whatever religion, because it's a well crafted narrative, right? And like, if your parents believe it, and everyone in your life, you go to temple, whatever. But I do think it's interesting when it comes like a conspiracy theory, because it is such like a fringe sort of ideology that it really is like in the home. I don't know. I was very fascinated. I hope that you will, as you do your research, continue to let us know what you're finding for people who love this book, what are some other books you might recommend that are in conversation with the quiet damage?

Jesselyn Cook 54:08

So there are a couple other great reporters who have done excellent books about qanon, if that is your specific interest, there's a book by the Washington Post reporter will summer called trust the plan, and another by Mike Rothschild, the storm is upon us. Those are two really excellent books that will help you understand where qanon came from, how it became so popular, the way it has shaped our political systems. Whereas my book is more of the human side of it and the human outcome, they really explain, like, how the fuck this all happened. So great book. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 54:43

were there any books that do sort of what you do that, like, inspired you, not necessarily about qanon, but just like, sort of the style?

Jesselyn Cook 54:51

Yes, I really enjoyed the writing in Lisa today as book three women. The end, like, oh yeah, super intimate detail and narrative. And I tried to emulate some of that by, I think my book reads almost like fiction. It's not it does, neither is Lisa's. But again, like, just really trying to, like, bring you into the scenes, and, you know, takes, like, an annoying level of deep reporting to get that so I thought she'd cut it off really well.

Traci Thomas 55:21

I actually was thinking about three women when I was reading your book. So good. Good job. Okay, last question, if you could have one person dead or alive read this book? Who would you want it to be?

Jesselyn Cook 55:30

Oh my gosh. So I have an aunt. I have not talked about this before, but I have an aunt who, she's in Canada, and she has gone into, I guess, a qanon adjacent kind of space. Qanon is absolutely present in Canada, but she has, she wouldn't call herself a qanon believer, and I don't know that she ever followed Q drops, but she's definitely started spouting a lot of really wild, baseless claims, and it has more recently and disturbingly, started to tilt toward the like anti semitic, kind of anti immigrant, really upsetting to read stuff and for her kids, they've talked to me about it. It's been really painful for them. I know she would never read my book in a million years, and I'm sure that our we don't have a ton of a relationship to begin with, but I imagine that, you know, if I were to call her now, it would be worse than it was last time, but I would love for her to read it, because I think that even people who totally disagree with me on all of these things, this book isn't really about debunking or dissuading or demonizing. It's kind of just trying to understand from multiple perspectives, and I think it would help her even understand how her kids feel about some of this stuff. So it would be interesting to have her read it and then sit down and talk with her about it.

Traci Thomas 56:53

That's a fantastic answer. All right, everybody at home, you can get the quiet damage wherever you get your books. It is out now. I listened to some of it on the audiobook, so I can recommend that to you as well. It is super engaging, like you said. It does sort of read like, I wouldn't say fiction, but like, because I like nonfiction, so I don't want to be like, Oh, it's fiction, but it's like narrative nonfiction. So you're really like, in these stories, you get to know these people. I definitely there were moments where I was like, Oh, my little heart is breaking for these people. Plus, I think I learned a lot so for folks who are who want more information on qanon and sort of what happens and how it works, and how it how it sort of infiltrates families and all of that, go check out the quiet damage. JESSELYN, thank you so much for being here.

Jesselyn Cook 57:36

Thank you so much for having me. This

Traci Thomas 57:38

was great, and everyone else, we will see you in the stacks.

All right, y'all that does it for us today. Thank you so much to jeslyn cook for joining the show, and thank you to Stacey Stein and Anahita padmanaban for helping to make this conversation possible. Don't forget the stacks book club pick for October is the nickel boys by Colson Whitehead, and we will be discussing the book on Wednesday, October 30 with Franklin Leonard. If you love the stacks and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/the stacks to join the stacks. Pack and you can check out my newsletter at Traci Thomas substack.com make sure you're subscribed to the stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, be sure to leave us a rating and a review for more from the stacks. Follow us on social media, at the stacks pod on Instagram, threads and Tiktok and at the stacks pod underscore on Twitter, and you can check out my website at the stackspodcast.com this episode of the stacks was edited by Christian Duenas, with production assistance from Megan Caballero. Our graphic designer is Robin mccright and our the music is from tegiris. The stats is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

]]>Ep. 340 Conspiracy Theories Are Not About the Truth with Jesselyn CookEp. 339 A Hype Man for the Writing Community with Franklin LeonardStacks AssistantWed, 02 Oct 2024 07:00:00 +0000https://www.thestackspodcast.com/2024/10/02/ep-339-franklin-leonard65d2b7a49de6215855aa3aaa:66084694f1e135566828a41a:66fa41fd199cb50d70c43a36

Actor and producer Franklin Leonard joins The Stacks this week to discuss his groundbreaking work with The Black List. Known for revolutionizing the way Hollywood discovers screenplays, Franklin recently expanded The Black List into the world of fiction. This new initiative gives writers a platform to showcase unpublished manuscripts and connect with key players in the publishing industry. In today’s episode, we dive into why Franklin wanted to venture into the book world, how The Black List works, and what this expansion means for emerging writers.

The Stacks Book Club pick for October is The Nickel Boys by Colson Whitehead. We will discuss the book on October 30th with Franklin Leonard returning as our guest.

LISTEN NOW

Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Google Podcasts | Overcast | Stitcher | Transcript

  

Everything we talk about on today’s episode can be found below in the show notes and on Bookshop.org and Amazon.

To support The Stacks and find out more from this week’s sponsors, click here.

Connect with Franklin: Instagram | Twitter | Website
Connect with The Stacks: Instagram | Twitter | Shop | Patreon | Goodreads | Substack | Subscribe

To contribute to The Stacks, join The Stacks Pack, and get exclusive perks, check out our Patreon page. If you prefer to support the show with a one time contribution go to paypal.me/thestackspod.

The Stacks participates in affiliate programs. We receive a small commission when products are purchased through links on this website.

TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host Traci Thomas, and today I am so excited to welcome Franklin Leonard to The Stacks. Franklin is a film and television producer and the founder of The Black List, which is a platform that has revolutionized the way Hollywood discovers and produces screenplays through use of a database for unproduced work.

The big exciting news is that Franklin has now expanded The Black List into the world of fiction, which we talk about a whole bunch today on the show. Franklin shares why he wanted to get into the book space and what anxieties he's had about making that jump, how The Black List actually works, and what success looks like for him and the team at The Black List. Remember, our book club pick for October is The Nickel Boys by Colson Whitehead.

Franklin will be back on Wednesday, October 30th to discuss the book with me. So be sure to read along and tune in. Quick reminder, everything we talk about on each episode of The Stacks can be found in the link in the show notes.

If you love this podcast, if you like what you hear today, if you want to support the work of The Stacks, go to patreon.com/thestacks and join The Stacks Pack. This is an independent podcast that I cannot make without the support of listeners like you. It is just $5 a month.

You get to be part of an incredible bookish community. You get to join our Discord, do our monthly virtual book club meetups. You get a bonus episode each month, and you get to know that by being a part of The Stacks Pack, you make the show possible.

Head to patreon.com/thestacks to sign up. Oh, and a fun perk of The Stacks Pack is that you get a shout out right here on the show. So thank you to Jordan, Chelsea Kay, Nicole Blancet-Denson, AJ Wall, Jean Nudel, and Julia Azari.

Thank you all so much. And for those of you who are like, I don't need to go to a book club, but I do want to support the show, you can subscribe to my newsletter Unstacked by going to traciethomas.substack.com. I'll be giving you book reviews.

I'll be giving you pop culture takes. I'll be giving you a lot of my really mediocre to middling opinions. So if that sounds more like your speed, head to traciethomas.substack.com and subscribe.

All right. Now it is time for my conversation with Franklin Leonard.

All right, everybody, I'm so excited. Today, I am joined by Franklin Leonard. He is the creator of The Black List, which we will talk about, but you might know about this new part of The Black List that he's endeavoring into, which is fiction for all of us book lovers.

So Franklin, welcome to The Stacks.

Thank you for having me, I am honored to be here.

I'm so excited. I wanna start not with The Black List or with books. I actually wanna start with the fact that you were a math person.

I was, I was a big math person, yeah.

So normally you wouldn't even be invited on this podcast because I am such an anti-math person. I hate math. I'm so bad at it.

That even speaking to a math person is like stressful for me. But you're here, but you're not really a math person anymore. So what happened?

I was gonna say, I've evolved. I've grown. Yeah, I was just a big math nerd as a kid.

It came easily to me and I really enjoyed it. So I was like captain of the math team in high school. And I was taking math classes at Columbus State University when I was still in high school.

I took number theory in high school at the local college just because I was like, oh, this will be exciting. Just to give you, I was Steve Urkel, while Steve Urkel was on television. And I think I have to give a lot of credit to my mother who was like, look, it's great that you're good at this one thing, but you should be good at other things and try to do the things that you're not good at.

And I was a reader as a kid. Like I was the kid with the flashlight underneath the blankets after bedtime reading. But I think by high school, I was just like, oh, the math's my thing.

That's what I want to focus on. She was like, no, you're good at that. That's easy, do the hard thing.

And so I remember forcing myself to read a lot as in high school and in my early 20s, because that was the thing that I found impenetrable. And I think I grew, I think I had a reverence for writers, but the more time I spent reading, the more that reverence grew for the notion of somebody going into a room alone and with, you know, an either free hand or on a computer, sort of willing worlds into existence. Like it's God-like to me.

And the people who do it exceptionally well are special people in my conception of the world.

What was challenging for you about reading? Why did you think that it was impenetrable?

I think it was an attention thing. I think, you know, like so many people, I have ADHD, but I was like diagnosed when I was in third grade back in like the 80s. Which I guess was relatively unusual then.

And so the idea of sitting down and engaging with something over an extended period of time was a challenge for me just like constitutionally. But I think that's also why like, you know, when the hook is set and the time disappears and you're just in this world, it became really special moments for me. And the people who were doing that to me, I was like, man, you changed my conception of time and space.

And that is not something that happens a lot. So I think that's probably what it was.

Can you think of like one or two books specifically that did that for you when you were younger?

I mean, I remember reading Invisible Man in high school. And you know, I grew up in the deep south. I grew up in Columbus, Georgia.

This was not something that was assigned in school. It was something that I picked up. I think because I knew it was important and I feel like the AP exam, there was a list of like the most referenced books on the AP exam.

And that was the number one book. And that was the type of student I was. I was like, well, then I have to read this if I wanna do well on the exam.

But that book, I remember really shaking up my world and my conception of what literature could do. And again, I was probably 15, 16 years old reading that book in Columbus, Georgia on the Alabama border. And I think I was probably having like a racial awakening at the time.

And that was a great place to start. I mean, I think literature, I'm a big believer in the fact that like politics lives downstream from culture. And so this notion of learning about the world through fiction, that felt like a brain breaking and world breaking moment for me.

I have one more math question, then we're gonna leave the subject. I feel like, so I'll tell you my story. I was a theater major, but before I was ever an actor, I was a dancer.

And when I was applying to college, I was like, I wanna go to theater school because I can take dance class anywhere. No matter where I go to school, I can get into a good dance class. But like to have good acting training, I should go to a good institution.

Obviously I do none of those things now, so what the fuck did I know? But my question is, you can read anywhere. You can be involved in writing.

You can pick up a good book no matter what. But do you miss high level math? Because you can't just be doing that just casually.

I think we should distinguish between actual high level math, which I, to be clear, was not and never did. And sort of like high level math.

Well, if you can divide, I feel like that's high level for me. So.

So this is sort of the story of my math career, right? I was very good at math in high school and early stage calculus, like the introductory college classes. And I went to Harvard for undergrad and I thought I was gonna be a math major.

And Harvard certainly admitted me thinking I was gonna be a math major. And I walked into that first math class freshman year at Harvard and I looked around. It was just very obvious to me that the people in that room were smarter than I was.

One of them had won the Westinghouse Science Competition. I think he is a math professor at Princeton now, if I'm not mistaken. There was a 15-year-old who had proven part of Fermat's Last Theorem.

It had been in the New York Times the week before we arrived on campus. Cool. So I've never done high-level math, to be clear.

The stuff that they were doing by sophomore year was out of my reach. I do miss it. And I think that it's interesting that, and we'll talk about it in the context of The Black List, a lot of the operations work around running a company like this means engagement with statistics and data sets and things like that.

And that is sort of where I get it. And I may or may not seek out the high school math competition every year and see if I still got some game.

Like do the problems.

Yeah. It may or may not happen. I'm not.

Yeah, that's why I won't be too my punishment.

I won't be too specific about just how ridiculous I am.

But yeah, okay.

I we have had coffee together and I already have a sense of your intensity, which is why I feel that I like you because you are my kind of intense person.

There's something that used to be called the American High School Math Exam that is, you can find every year's update, like new version on the internet. And yeah, it's just fun to see, like, do you still got it? It's like, if you were about, you know, as you get older, you go out and play a sport and you're like, oh yeah, yeah.

Time comes for us all.

I couldn't do the math test in high school, so I don't need to go back and see if I still got it because I never, I never had it. Okay, so fast forward, you get into Hollywood, you work like with some production companies, you decide I'm going to start this thing called The Black List, where you take the slush pile of scripts that were not turned into things. You put them in a database.

People can read them. They can decide this is actually great. We want to make this.

It has been successful, I think is a real understatement. If you've heard of Slumdog Millionaire, if you've heard of The King's Speech, if you've heard of Argo, those are just a handful of spotlight of the books or the scripts that have been made into best picture movies or whatever. So Black List was great.

And I'm sort of fast forwarding through Black List a little bit because I want to get to this new development in fiction because this is a book podcast. But before we go there, I want to know what it was like for you as a black man entering into Hollywood with this sort of like disruptory idea in a space that I think we all know, especially 20 years ago, was like really white and really not welcoming to outsiders. And I've heard you talk a lot about that for actual writers who are trying to break in, who don't have connections, who aren't from LA.

But what was that like for you? Because you weren't from LA and you were not an executive and that level, and you're black and that's hard. So I'm wondering what that part of it was like for you.

That's a really interesting question. I'd say it's probably not something that I think about a lot. You're right, Hollywood is a bit of a closed, it's a walled garden.

And the people who are in are in and the people who are out are out. And sort of going over that wall is difficult. I think I was lucky, I went to Harvard.

I got my first job as an assistant at Creative Artist Agency in the Motion Picture Lit Department, because I had a friend from Harvard who had a friend who was working there. And when I came out to Los Angeles for the first time, I had a drink with that person, and a friend of hers stopped by and said, hey, there's an agent at CAA looking for an assistant. You seem like you would do well in that job.

I'll send over your resume. So I literally sent her my resume on a Wednesday, I interviewed on a Thursday, I was offered the job on a Friday and I started on Monday. So I was able to sort of sneak over the wall because of this access that I had to that network, right?

That was only born of the college that I had gone to. There's no other way for me to get from Columbus, Georgia to Hollywood if I hadn't had that. And then I think, you know, my attitude about most things, and it's funny because we're gonna talk about Nickel Boys at some point in the future, and I feel like it was resonant for a lot of reasons this being one of them.

You have the knowledge that it's harder for you. You have the knowledge that you're a black executive and this is not a system that was built for you. But on some level, I had to put that to the side and say, okay, I understand, I'm not gonna get the calls from the referee, et cetera, whatever metaphor you wanna use, but that's the nature of the world, and I'm still going to have to figure out a strategy that's gonna allow me to succeed in this, and that will probably mean being better than my peers just so that I can be on equal playing field with them.

And that ended up manifesting itself in, okay, I will read more than everybody else. I will read more screenplays. I will be the person who just has the information.

And that's sort of how The Black List came into being. I would read 20 scripts a weekend. I would take home a banker's box full of scripts.

None of them would be things that I could slap down on my boss's desk and say, this is our priority now. And I needed a solution to find the good stuff because I wasn't finding it, and by this point I was working at Leonardo DiCaprio's company, and I was seeing all of the good stuff. So how do I build something that can solve that problem for me?

And I just took a survey of my peers, some of your 10 favorite unproduced screenplays, and that became the first Black List. It's funny, in your description of it, you give me way more credit than I deserve because it seems very intentional. But I was just like, I gotta find the good scripts.

How do I find the good scripts? And The Black List was an outgrowth of that search, and I didn't realize at the time that everybody was looking for good scripts. And so I was solving a problem not just for myself, but for everybody, and I think that's really how it took root.

Okay. You read a lot of scripts. Yeah.

Estimate, give me some math here. What percentage of your reading is books versus scripts?

For most of my Hollywood career, it's probably over 90 percent, which is terrifying when I really step back and think about it. But again, this is the level of commitment to the job. It was all consuming.

And I would take some time. There'd be a book that would come out that I was really personally excited about, and I would read it. I tend to default to non-fiction, interestingly enough.

And then there were books that you would read in consideration of turning them into film and television. So you get submitted a manuscript and you read that. I remember reading The Hunger Games in manuscript form because it was circulating in the studios and I was assigned to read it.

But yeah, for the most part, it was almost all screenplays.

It's funny, when I first started the show, or one of the reasons I didn't want to do the show is because when I moved to LA, everyone's like, nobody reads in LA. It wasn't until I started posting about what I was reading on social media, that I realized I was working in fitness, that all of my people who came to my classes, who were executives or worked in Hollywood, were reading so much. But people talk about the reading as a means to the end, as a part of making a movie as opposed to, oh, I just read five books that we might option.

But I'm like, yeah, you still read five books. I feel like LA is actually an extremely literate city. People are reading scripts, people are reading books, people are reading treatments, people are looking at content and trying to find something to make, or looking at other written content, trying to find something to make.

And I think we don't maybe get credit for that.

I think that's an incredibly astute observation. I think that LA is, yeah, a very literate city, but they're reading as a means to an end. And the end is not just having read the thing.

Yeah.

And I mean, I know this for myself. I'd be trying to decide among things that I would want to read, and you prioritize the thing that might be a movie, that might be a TV show. No matter how far fetched the idea, okay, well, this one I'll prioritize because not only will I have read something good, but then I also might want to option it.

And I also think that there are people in Hollywood, I think it's like, there are definitely some people in Hollywood that don't read, like let's just be real. But I do think that there are also a large number of people in Hollywood who came to Hollywood because they are just generally enraptured by stories and their love of movies or television comes from the same part of their brain as their love for books. And so there's, you know, it's a different form, but it's not a different thing.

Fundamentally, it is, you know, storytelling and the communication of ideas via narrative. And for writers, especially, it's just a different form. And it all starts with a writer doing their job.

All of it.

When you read a screenplay or a book or anything, are you visualizing what the thing could be? Are you casting it in your brain? Are you thinking like, this could be such a cool shot?

Or are you really reading it for more of like the story elements and sort of just like trying to figure out what the person's saying? I know it's probably a mixture of both, but there are people who don't see the thing when they read.

Yeah, I can't imagine what that's like. I think, you know, sometimes you read like these studies about like the brain and perception and you're like, wait, other people, their brain is running entirely different software than mine. Yeah, I can't really, I don't think this is a product of having worked in film.

I think I've always read as though I was watching a movie in my brain. And I don't know that I was casting, you know, I wasn't casting specific actors certainly when I was a teenager, but I was also always imagining what I was seeing, you know, via the words on the page. And I think, you know, what you hope is that when you read, the critical brain turns off on some level.

Like I know I'm reading something good when I'm not, but I don't have my Hollywood executive brain on, where I'm like, oh, that's a second act note, we want to change that or oh, you know, it would be interesting to reverse the order of these scenes if we made it into a movie. The best stuff, and this is true even when I'm reading screenplays, that part of my brain at some point just like clicks into the off side, and I'm just watching a movie, right? Like I am just enjoying the thing and enraptured by the story that I'm being told, and that's more often than not the sign that that's something that I should pay more attention to.

And then you have to go back and say, okay, well, how would this be a movie? But the, I already saw the movie part is sort of the best compliment that I can give, because I wasn't thinking about how would I make this better. How would I make this better?

Right. Okay, so, okay, we got to get to the actual fiction stuff. So you, you are, I've heard you talk about this a little bit.

A friend of yours sort of was like, Franklin, you should get into books. And you were like, eh, I don't know, like not really my thing. What did you need to see or hear or find out about the publishing space that actually led you to wanting to execute this idea of going into fiction versus just like having an idea and thinking about it?

Yeah, I mean, so by 2012, we built this website that allows screenwriters to submit their work and get feedback. And if it was good, we tell everybody in Hollywood. And it was purpose built to solve very specific systemic issues in Hollywood that prevented people who had really great material from getting that material to somebody who could do something with it.

And conversely, the people who could make things had a hard time finding good things. So how do you find all of the needles and all of the haystacks? And over time, Howie Sanders and anonymous content sort of most vocally, people would say, hey, this would work in books as well.

And I just didn't want to be presumptuous and be like, hey, I'm from Hollywood and I'm here to fix things, guy. Because that's just a terrible look on every level. But this happened more and more.

And I think at some point, I told Howie, I was like, listen, this is not my area of expertise. This works in film because I know film and I know how things work. I know how information moves.

I don't feel confident that it would be the right thing to do to just jump into this new space and assume. He was like, look, I'll set you up on like a dozen meetings with people in the publishing industry and all manner of stakeholders in the system. Tell them how you would do it.

And I'll tell them and you should tell them to just give it to you straight. Like, are you wrong? I was wrong, right?

Like what I heard sort of unanimously was the systemic problems that exist in publishing exist in film and television, also exist in publishing and this system that we had built could help solve those problems. And that's where fundamental problems are. There are a super abundance of material.

There are more people writing novels than any one person or even group of people can read. There are a limited number of people who are what's called gatekeepers who are responsible for going through all of those haystacks to find the needles. And as a result of that, people were triaging the massive inflow because you can't just drink from the fire hose and read everything.

And by nature, I think we all default to, okay, well, I'm just going to source things from the traditional paths. I'm going to go to the big agencies if I'm an editor. I'm going to go to my friends if they have access to people who they say are good writers.

I'm going to go to the universities that traditionally produce the good writers to find the stuff that's good. And that means that if you're not in one of those pipelines, if you're not already represented by an agency, if you didn't go to the quote unquote right schools, if you don't know somebody who's already in the system, it's impossible to get into the system, no matter how good your work is. And once I realized that those dynamics were at play, it seemed obvious that we probably could take what we had built, adjust it in ways that were specific to publishing and make it work, and then still, over the next 18 months, I probably took another 100 meetings with stakeholders in the space, editors, agents, writers, hey, this is what we're thinking, this is how we would do it, tell me where I'm wrong, tell me how we can make this better, tell me how this can be improved.

I brought on Randy Winston, who was the head of writer programs at the Center for Fiction at the top of this year, because I knew I also needed somebody who was of the world, rather than being a total outsider trying to figure it out. And we took a bunch of meetings together doing the same thing. And yeah, we launched it early September, and it's been really exciting and really gratifying to see how well it's been received.

Okay, and for people who aren't familiar, can you sort of loosely explain what it is and how it works?

Yeah, so I'll explain it mainly from the point of view of a writer. I'm a writer, I've written two novels, neither of them have been published. I've been querying to agents and editors and maybe I've gotten some response and some people like it, but nothing's happened yet.

First and foremost, you can go on the Black List website and create a writer profile, which is bio, information, a photo. It's your typical landing page on the internet. Think of this as your writerly IMDB page or your Wikipedia page.

I was thinking MySpace, but sure.

MySpace works, Black Planet. There's a lot of options. The early Facebook.

But as part of that, you can list all the things that you've written. So here's the title of my novel. Here's a brief description of it.

I've tagged it in any number of ways, like by location or era or various literary devices. We do that too. And then, so that's your home on the internet.

And it also means that all of that information is now in our database, because on the other side of the equation is our folks, our industry professionals and the publishing film, television and theater worlds. And all of those members have had to apply for membership. We have vetted them based on their expertise and ability to function at a high level in those spaces.

So that if, let's say hypothetically, a director wakes up tomorrow morning and says, you know what, I'd really love to do a sci-fi film with a cast from different parts of the world, hypothetically. I, as a director, can go on the Black List website and search for something like that. And if you wrote a novel by that description, even if it's just listed associated with your profile, I can find out about it.

And if the description sounds interesting to me, I can then write to you via internal messaging system and say, hey, you have this thing that sounds interesting. Can you send it to me? Or if you have your agency information listed, if you're represented, I can call your agent and say, hey, this novel sounds interesting.

I'm looking for something like that.

So the novels are not separate. They're part of the whole entire tranche of everything.

That's exactly right. And the reason for that is mainly because it never made sense to me that the book industry and the film and television industry sat separate from each other. Like I said earlier, these are two things of a kind.

And they're, I think, more and more related as movies and television can help kickstart book sales and more and more adaptations are the stock and trade of the film and television industry. If we can find things that are commercial and have a built-in audience by virtue of the fact that the book was very successful, that's very exciting for the industry. But even just finding something that isn't necessarily commercially successful but has a great idea in it, we need good ideas in film and TV.

So why not loop all of these things into a single marketplace so that people can find the things they're looking for? So that's the writer profile and that's entirely free. So if you're a writer, take the five minutes it takes to create a profile because you've literally lost nothing but those five minutes.

You can also upload your manuscript to the Black List website along with a 100 page excerpt and make it directly available. So it's fine if you're represented and people are calling out. It's fine if maybe your book has been published and it's on your writer profile and a director finds it and they can either go buy it or they can reach out to your agent.

But if you don't have either of those things, then it makes sense to make it directly available to reduce the friction on somebody who wants to read this thing, reading it. Hosting it on the website also allows you to purchase feedback on the excerpt. So we provide feedback on the roughly 100 page excerpt of your novel and we generally recommend that that be the first 100 pages, because that's what people are going to start reading.

I'm sure there are exceptions, right? Like I can imagine a scenario where you've got like a tripartite novel in the middle section for whatever reason you feel like it, but like make it the first 100 pages. And all of our readers have worked for at least a year in a professional capacity evaluating fiction in the publishing industry.

So they know the market, they are experienced readers, and then we vet them further based on

their ability to provide high quality feedback. When that feedback is really enthusiastic, when one of our readers says, oh, this is really good. People should know about this.

The site sort of goes to work in an automated way, telling everybody in our industry professional membership, hey, one of our readers really liked this excerpt and says the book is really strong, you should check it out. And that means that that information is going to right now about 5,000, probably closer to 5,500 now, industry professionals in the publishing film television and theater space. So instead of querying 30 people saying, hey, you should read my thing, I think it's good, it may have won these other awards or whatever, it's a third party saying, hey, one of our people who we trust and you trust us to choose those people, think this is worth paying attention to.

And the result of that is all of a sudden, a lot of people are reading your work, a lot of people may be calling you once they've read it because they love it to say, hey, let's talk about how we can do something together. And it doesn't make sense to me that you first go to an agent and then you go to an editor and then the thing goes to the film and television person and then a director and then an actor. Like, if something's great, let's tell everybody about it.

Right, right.

A friend of mine was like, so you're basically just like a hype man for the writing community. And I'm like, yeah, I mean, it's not the first description I'd give, but I'll take that title if someone wants to offer it. Like, I'm nothing if not a fan of things that I'm a fan of.

Okay. And I think a lot of people have this question, which is how do you make money? How does The Black List make money?

Good question. So yeah, we charge a hosting fee to host your work on the site. So it's $30 a month per thing, screenplay, play, manuscript, whatever.

We also charge for the feedback. So on the manuscript side, it's $150 for the 100 page excerpt feedback. We pay our readers 100 of that, which we sort of guess between.

There's a very nerdy way we backed into this. We did a word count on all of the screenplays that have been submitted in the previous year before we set the price. Found that screenplays are roughly 22,000 to 25,000 words.

A 100 page excerpt is roughly 30,000 words. We pay our screenplay readers is roughly $60 plus bonuses based on volume and quality of their work. So we scaled that up to the fiction and also assumed that fiction is more dense to read.

That's how we ended up at 100, which means that over the course of a year, if you're reading for us and you were reading 40 hours a week, 50 weeks a year, you'd probably pull down 60K plus bonuses. It was just important that, you know, I'm not gonna say $60,000 is like an amazing salary, but to read novels and provide feedback from anywhere on your schedule is something that I can sort of stand 10 toes down and say, yeah, this is what we're doing.

Okay, so now I know people in my audience want to know how can they become a reader?

If you have a year of experience reading professionally, in a professional capacity for the publishing industry, we will be looking for readers in the very near future. Follow us on social media, follow our, you know, sign up for the mailing list and we'll be letting people know when that opportunity is available.

Okay. How's it going? Have people been signing up?

Have novels been coming to you? What's, you know, I think we're maybe a month or so in the announcement with-

Three weeks ago.

Almost, almost a month in at the time of this recording. What's been the response? What have you seen?

What's exciting? What has you being like, Uh-oh, did we fuck this up? Like, because I'm sure there's some of both.

I'd say there's really nothing that makes me think we fucked this up, which is very exciting. Yeah. And I think-

Congratulations.

Well, I don't want to be to pat myself on the back about that too much because Lord knows by like this afternoon that might change.

Yes. Send an addendum.

But what I will say is, we spent, initially me and then me and Randy, spent a long time for reasons, talking to everyone we could and being very transparent about, this is how this is going to be organized, this is how it will function. We took on a lot of feedback and we incorporated that feedback into how we did this. I think that the fact that there hasn't been any major like, oh gods, is a good sign.

I think we've also been lucky in that there was, I had a bit of a concern that we would be overwhelmed by submissions initially, like thousands, I know how many writers are out there. And so there was a risk of everybody being like, damn, I got my novel, let's go. And fortunately, I think, you know, we've seen several hundred submitted in the first few weeks, but that means that we're gonna be able to ramp up our reader core, make sure that the feedback that we're providing is of the highest quality.

And we've already seen some things that were really exciting to start recommending to people. I think the thing that's maybe most exciting is how well it's been received on the industry side of things. The folks who have signed up to get access to the things that we have found, you know, I can't say in specific names and companies, but, you know, it's the people that you're querying, it's those people's bosses, it's those people's bosses' bosses.

And then we already had a wide variety at all levels of the film and television industry, but I think there's a particular interest there in the books that we're going to find as reflected by the fact that we have a partnership, we launched with a partnership with Simon Kenberg, the producer of The Martian, and he was like, yeah, I know you're going to find stuff that's great. I'll commit to optioning one of the manuscripts that you find for $25,000 for an 18 month option. Help me find things that look like this.

And we have also, we're doing something called The Blacklist Unpublished Novel Award. So, you know.

I'm a judge.

Yeah, no, I know. It's, and it's a murderous row of judges.

The judges are obscenely amazing.

It's pretty cool.

I was looking at the list like, you guys are such overachievers. It's disrespectful to the rest of us.

No, I think this is, but again, I think this is just sort of, I think it's reflective of sort of what we do, like the level that we work at and who we serve. But yeah, well, Vara Burton is judging sci-fi and fantasy, Roxane Gay is judging thrillers, Mike Franck.

My favorite editor, Kathy Belden, is doing Lit Fiction. She is, she's like the book whisperer.

And it's crazy, it's like every category, you're just like, come on. Come on. I can't first, so just go check out the judges, if nothing else, because I'm very proud of the group we put together.

But we're gonna give $10,000 to one writer in seven different genres. And I also, you know, I can't say specifics now, but there are more partnerships coming from the film and television space, which again, I think reflects the real interest in finding great stuff. And I think that's probably the most exciting thing.

So if you have a novel, do your research, come to the website, make sure that this is, you know, your novel's ready and that this is an infrastructure you're comfortable sharing it with. But yeah, there's, I think the next couple months are gonna be very exciting.

Let's take a quick break and we'll be right back.

All right, we are back. I have to know, because I think this becomes sort of a contentious issue when Hollywood and books are so tightly linked. Is there either you or, you know, Randy or anyone over at The Black List, is there any concern that because of your background in Hollywood and The Black List's background as a Hollywood institution at this point, that books for books sake aren't getting the attention that it's like, oh, we wanna push this towards what's being optioned or like that it's connected to Hollywood so tightly, that just like a great novel that's a great novel that will never be a movie, maybe isn't gonna get the same kind of attention in a space like this?

It's a great question. I, part of the reason why I wanted to bring Randy onto the team is that I didn't want that to happen. I think that one of the worst case scenarios for what we do is that we're so successful at sourcing material, but our sourcing is prioritizing film and TV and not books for books sake.

And all of a sudden, the process by which people are thinking about what has value is determined by film and TV and not the word on the page. So here are the things that we've done to make sure that doesn't happen. One is, Randy is very much an advocate for fiction writers, period.

And that's one of the reasons why I hired him when we were having our initial conversations. He was grilling me as a writer. Okay, well, what about this?

How are your readers assigned to individual evaluations? How are you talking, are the readers people from Hollywood? Are they people from the publishing industry?

All of these questions that were the questions that I was already trying to figure out on my own, but the fact that he was pressing me on them, I was like, this is the guy we need in this circle. No, he's incredible.

We should just say, Randy is, if you guys don't know Randy Winston, truly.

You'll know sooner or later if you don't. But that was the voice and the energy that we needed inside the tent to make sure that we were not doing that. But the second thing is, so all of the readers are not Hollywood people.

The readers are people who have experience in publishing for publishing sake, and they are not reading things, will this be a good movie adaptation? They're reading things for book sake. And that determines the visibility they get on the site.

Not, is this adaptable? And I think that sort of makes, that's one really strong guard against it. I think the other really strong guard against it, frankly, is the community itself.

You know, one thing I appreciate and seek out is constructive criticism. And so if there is ever that sense, we want to know. And if anybody has suggestions for how we can better guard against that, we want to know, but know that it is a priority of ours to make sure that that does not become an issue.

And safeguards have been put in place in that regard. Oh, two things I do want to, well, three things I want to really highlight really quickly before we jump to my book taste. The first is that when you submit a book to, like, I think there's a reasonable concern that, like, when you submit your work to something like The Black List, that, and I think that there's a concern because people have done this in the past.

It's, oh, well, if somebody comes and offers me a million dollars from my book, The Black List is going to have their hands in my pocket, like that I somehow owe The Black List. The answer is no, you owe us nothing. We would love for you to tell us about the amazing book deal that was born of an introduction that we hasten via the site.

But you don't even have to do that. But again, tell us so we can further amplify your success. But you don't even have to do that.

We're definitely not coming asking for a percentage of the sale or a check. You own the rights to your material, period, full stop. The second is the way we assign material to our readers.

Obviously, like I said, you are only being read by people that have an expertise in the format in which we're writing. So screenplay, film people are reading screenplays, TV people are reading pilots, book people are reading books. Second category is genre.

People are only reading in the genre in which they have interests. If you're a romantic person, you're not reading horror or vice versa unless you happen to be interested in both. Then the third, and this is something that I'm maybe most proud of, and I think it's pretty singular, a shout out to Kate Hagen and Shelby Covent on The Black List team who came up with this, and that is content advisory.

When our readers come on to read, and we offer them the ability to read for us, there's a checklist and they tell us the things that they don't want to read about. I may not want to read about gun violence or domestic abuse or whatever. Then when you upload your material, you indicate what's in your manuscript and your excerpt, and we negatively match based on that.

The reason for that is we want to make sure that if you're a writer, you've got the best chance for the reader to have a positive response to your work. Secondly, we want to protect our readers from reading bad executions of things that they may find unpleasant, traumatic or whatever, and may render them just by being a human being, unable to render judgment on the things that they've read in a fair way. So I'd say that's two.

Third thing is...

That was three.

Was that three?

Yeah.

Okay, all right, well then I have one more, which is... I think it could be four. Four is that once you had one evaluation on the website, all of those opportunities that I mentioned, the Unpublished Novel Award, the Simon Kinberg thing, the more to come, you can submit to those, click of a button at no additional cost.

One thing we do not want to do is create an incentive structure where once you have an inkling that what you've written is good, there's an incentive for you to pay more money, right? Like normally there's like all these opportunities and you're like, well, people keep telling me my thing is good, I should plunk down a $100 here and $50 here and whatever. If your thing is good, you shouldn't have to pay more money and you should have all the opportunities that your work merits, and we want to create that dynamic.

Not only is it you don't have to pay more to submit, but when you get a very high score, we give you more free hosting and more free feedback. If that generates another high score, you're getting more free feedback, more hosting, so on and so forth. Once you get like five, eight out of 10 scores, we're like, okay, we get it, it's good.

We'll make sure to promote it very specially and we'll host it for free for as long as you want to, but we're not gonna like give you more free evaluations for another reader to tell us, yes, it's great.

It's good, great. With The Black List on the film and TV side, there's like an actual list that comes out that's like, these are the great things. Will there be that for the books or is that the awards?

I would say stay tuned. I think the awards will reflect what has come through the website. And I think there's a bigger question about how and if we come up with an annual list that is book related.

Okay.

I mean, I think there are a lot of book lists already for published novels, I think is the other reality, right? Yes Yeah.

So I don't know that it makes sense for us to be trying to do that, but there's definitely some things I think that we can do that would be mutually beneficial to a lot of different communities. So we'll see. We'll see.

Okay. This is the last one about the book list. I'm going to go get to your books.

What does success look like for you here?

Success looks like for me here that, and this is, we'll never get there, this is sort of asymptotic to be clear.

Okay. What a word.

Another math word. It means that success will looks like, basically the gap between opportunity and you is just quality. So I think right now as the world exists, you can write something great, but if you don't know the right people, didn't go to the right school, don't live in the right city and have access to the right social networks, it is still extremely difficult to get your work in the hands of people who can do something with it.

Success for me looks like that no longer being true. Success for me looks like no matter where I live, no matter who I know, if I can write a banger, I can upload it to The Black List, confirm that it's a banger, have everybody be told about it and start getting incoming phone calls near instantaneously. The results of that, the material results of that success mean a lot of things that excite me.

It means more better books for all of us to read. It means more better movies and TV shows for all of us to watch. It means a more diverse cultural canon.

But that's again, you never actually achieve that. It's just what you're running towards.

Well, I will know that you are successful in my book when I get to feature an author on the show who came up through The Black List fiction.

That will also feel like success. Like materially speaking, 100 percent, yeah.

That's like such a cool... I mean, I met Randy right when he started. He hadn't even left his other job, but he like, you know, whatever, but he couldn't tell me anything.

And getting to watch and follow this, I think that I will personally feel like, what a win for you all when that happens, which I know that it will, I don't know, probably years out, but like, if I'm still doing the show.

No, I, yeah, someone asked me for an over under on how long it will take for a script to end up on the annual Black List that's an adaptation of a novel that was found via the website. I think I put it at 2030. But yeah, like stuff like that.

But again, for me, like, those will all feel like successes, but for me, oh, but look, here's the other big success, right? And this is probably the thing that for on the film, on the film side has always felt like moment to moment, like the biggest success is getting an email from a writer who says something on the lines of like, your reader just destroyed my script, got a really low score, but points were made. And for the first time, I feel like I understand the gap between where I'm at and what a professional screen, like the level of a professional screenwriter, and I'm really excited to go rewrite my script because of the feedback that your reader provided.

That, that, like, if we're doing that on a consistent basis, that will probably be the first indication of success. And then just closing this gap, you know, sort of removing the things other than merit that results in success for people is sort of the long-term goal. But again, it's like, that's an aspiration you never actually get there.

Yeah. Okay. We're gonna pivot.

I'm very sad because we didn't talk about soccer at all. I had a really fun movie question.

There's so much we can talk about.

I'm like, we need, we only need to get coffee, but anyways. Okay. We do a thing here called Ask The Stacks.

Someone has written in a little paragraph asking for a book recommendation. I'm gonna read it to you. You're gonna help me come up with a book recommendation.

Oh, wow. Okay. Let's do it.

So if you want a book recommendation read on air, email AskTheStacks at thestackspodcast.com. This comes from Kara. And Kara says, since becoming a mom, I don't always have big chunks of time for reading.

I would love some recommendations for propulsive reads that will keep me coming back even when I only have a few minutes. I'm open to any genre or topic, but would love some non-thriller options. I have a few that I've written down.

Do you want to have a second to think about it? Please. Kara, my first pick is a non-fiction book that I freaking love this year.

It is Challenger by Adam Higginbotham. It is about the challenger explosion. It is so propulsive because the book starts and you know where you're going.

You know what's going to happen by the end of the book. You're already locked into the story from Jump, and he does such an amazing job telling the story. That's my first one.

My second one is actually a book that Franklin mentioned earlier, which is The Hunger Games. I don't know if you've read that. I don't know if you've revisited it.

It is a banger. The whole series is so good, I don't even know how it's still so good. It shouldn't still work, but you know what?

It does. Katniss, my queen. And then my third recommendation is an adaptation of Anna Karenina, YA.

It's called Anna Kay by Jenny Lee, and it's a modern retelling of Anna Karenina, and it's giving crazy rich Asians meets gossip girl, like high schoolers being rich and doing drugs. So those would be my three recommendations. I actually read Anna Kay at the start of the pandemic, right after my twins were born.

So I know it is the perfect book for that part of your life. Franklin, what do you have propulsive reads? You can just do one.

You don't have to do-

I have a few. It's funny you mentioned The Hunger Games though, because like I said, I was assigned to read that when I was a studio executive. And I remember not being psyched that I had to read it overnight.

Because we just didn't know anything about it. Like it seemed on premise, like it wouldn't be a movie. And I remember coming back the next day and being like, listen, I am not an expert in the genre.

I don't think this is targeted at me. But I also read this without stopping. And I haven't read a book like that in a very long time.

I feel like we should option this. And I remember being told like, it's female-driven action, female-driven action doesn't work, which is like a conventional wisdom that still exists in the film industry. And most of the studios passed when they read it in a manuscript form.

That's how it ended up at now Lionsgate. But yeah, it's a hell of a read. I've not been back to it since, but I do remember reading it and just being like, yeah, it just works.

I am, start to finish. It works. Yeah, it just works.

Okay, when we say not thrower, what exactly do we mean? That's sort of my question.

You know what? It's okay if it's a little flurry.

Yeah, so the first book I'm going to mention is one that I feel like it's propulsive in part because you want to find out what happened. You want to find out what's going on. There's like a dramatic event and it sets up a world.

And so you're like, even if you're like get distracted and a month goes by, you're going to come back to it because you're like, I just kind of need to know. I need to know how this resolves, right? And that's Colson Whitehead's The Intuitionist.

I never read it.

Oh, cannot recommend this book highly enough. I'm still desperate to see it made into a film. I don't know when it will happen, but I just love it so much.

But again, it paints this world incredibly well in the opening with a character that you want to know how she's going to navigate this seemingly untenable situation. And yeah, the second, and this is maybe a cheat because I have not read the book. I've only seen the movie adaptation.

Okay. And that's a movie that's coming out later this year called Conclave, which is, and again, this is just, it probably falls in the thrower category, political thrower, but here's the thing. I personally weirdly have a fascination with papal conclaves, and this is like a book set at a papal conclave as they're choosing a new pope.

Right, right, that's enough, right? And the movie is great, the movie is propulsive. What I've heard from people who have read the book and seen the movie is that the book is the same.

And if you have a fascination also with just like beautiful detailed descriptions of like calligraphy and you know, ornate costumery of the Vatican, this is probably something for you.

Okay, I love that, that's amazing.

And then the last one is is sort of not a piece of the other two. And that's David Blythe's biography of Frederick Douglass.

I've heard that you love this book.

I did love this book. And part of the reason I love this book is because I think that Frederick Douglass's story is still underappreciated and unconsidered as part of American history. And I think that what's amazing about Blythe's book is part of it is just that it's incredibly long and thorough.

But there are, and again, reading things with an eye towards a different end than just reading them. But there are eight movies in Frederick Douglass's life.

Yes.

And I probably take the over on eight if I'm being real. And so what's amazing about this book as something that you can put down and return to is that he did so much in his life, and there's so many different sections of his life that it's totally reasonable to read one section and feel like you have read a whole thing, and then come back and read the next section. So it's almost as though you're reading eight small narrative non-fictions instead of one giant non-fiction.

I also just want more people reading about Frederick Douglass and thinking about Frederick Douglass. He was the most photographed American of the 19th century. How was a man who was born enslaved?

How did they become the first, the most photographed American of the 19th century, and probably the most photographed non-royal on earth?

Right, wow.

What does that mean? How does that happen? I'm also fascinated by the fact that Douglass died a month before the Lumiere brothers screened their first ever motion picture.

So he's obsessed with individual photos and what their potential and meaning is, but never sees a movie.

A movie, wow.

And what does that mean? That 130 years later, we're still not fully appreciating the cultural impact of movies and the way they define how we see each other.

I love it. Okay, Kara, if you read any of those books, you have to report back, tell us how we did. Everyone else, email AskTheStacks at thestackspodcast.com to get some recommendations.

Okay, Franklin, two books you love, one book you hate.

I think I already mentioned the two books I love, The Douglas Biography and The Intuitionist. One book I hate. I'm not good at this.

Oh, come on. Here's why. Here's why.

Because I will put a book down if I don't enjoy it. I think the nature of my reading professionally is that if it's not going to be a thing, I'm like, okay, moving on. So I never do enough research to hate with security.

What about in school? There's never been a book in your life where you're like, this book is my nemesis.

The Fuck Catcher in the Rye.

Yay, there it is. That's one of mine.

I just never got it. I'll be honest, that was the book that we read it in school. And the teachers just talking about how important it is and blah, blah, blah and how Holden is a a stand in for all adolescents.

And all of my classmates, particularly the literary ones were like, oh, Catcher in the Rye, Catcher in the Rye. I was just like, dude's an asshole. And I do not identify with this experience at all.

And I think with a little bit of remove, I'm like, yeah, that's not a story about a black kid. And my reality and thinking about my behavior in that context is a very different thing. So yeah, all right.

Yeah. Fuck Catcher in the Rye.

Yay. What are you reading right now?

What am I reading right now? I'm looking over at a stack of books on my side table here. I've got Priyanka Matu's Bird Milk and Mosquito Bones that I've been sort of reading essay by essay.

Sarah Lewis's The Unseen Truth, which I believe just came out this weekend. Godwin, Joseph O'Neill on the Soccer Front. That was an easy sell to me.

I just started reading a biography of Juergen Klopp, the Liverpool soccer coach. There's a lot of soccer non-fiction reading mixed into my, and that's the really dumb pleasure reading. There's another book that I bought recently called The Stadium, which is about the role of stadiums in our cultural and political life, which I'm really interested to dig into at some point.

That sounds great.

Yeah. That's just like, again, the stack that's right most visible to me right now.

What's the last really good book someone recommended to you?

Well, that's a really good book that I read that I guess is a recommendation would actually be The Nickel Boys because I read it because I was asked to moderate the panel about the movie. I guess that's a recommendation. Sure.

It was the one Colson Whitehead book that I hadn't read yet, and it was, we'll talk about it.

Yeah. That's our book club pick, so we'll dig deep. Do you set any reading goals for yourself?

I don't, but I probably should.

You don't have to. I'm a goal person, I have to, but it's also my job.

I think the closest thing I have to that is these stacks that sort of sit around reminding me that I haven't read them yet. Well, it's also judging me, but it's intentionally there to entice me. It's like, you have 15 minutes and there's this book about soccer sitting right there, or there's this book about stadiums, or Priyanka's book is just right there.

You can read an essay right now, and if it's within arm's reach, I know that I'm more likely to read more. I think if everything was put away, I would be less likely to. So it's about creating incentive structures that incentivize good behavior.

I love that. What is your ideal reading situation? Location, time of day, snacks and beverages?

Talk about it.

Coffee is probably there.

And how do you take your coffee?

Either black or with way too much sugar and milk. It's an either or proposition. I don't know that I have an idea.

I don't have a reading nook or something. I just wherever I am, I'll get it in. And I think I probably default to just lying on my couch.

Like, are you like a snuggled up reader or are you like a sitting up right kind of reader?

Oh no, I'm definitely like a lying down reader. And I'm sort of like, you know, rotating side to side as necessary as like shoulders and arms fall asleep.

Do you have a favorite bookstore?

The Strand is like, I've never managed to escape without spending more money than I should.

Yes.

So I don't know if that's favorite or least favorite, but like-

Most effective bookstore.

Yeah, I mean, it's just one of those things. I don't know that I've made a trip to New York without stopping by. And when I lived in New York, it was, again, if I passed it, I would go in and then I come out with books that I probably didn't need or wasn't going to read in the immediate future.

Skylight is not far from me here in Los Angeles. So that ends up being the default.

Yeah. What's the last book that made you laugh?

Oh, Bird, Milk and Mosquito Bones. It's really pre-alhambit to who I've known for years. She was an agent at WME when I was coming up.

It's just an absolutely delightful writer. It's just her work is infused with so much joy and pathos. It's just a delight to read.

Last book that made you cry?

Nickel Boys.

Last book where you felt like you learned a lot?

Any book? I'm reading that Juergen Klopp biography right now. I don't know if there's ever been a book that I've read that I didn't learn a lot in one way or another.

Again, I hate to keep coming back to Nickel Boys, but it's very present in my mind, having just seen the movie and then read the book for the podcast. But I learned a lot of, it's about the 1960s in the South, and I realized towards the end of reading the book, that the characters would have roughly been my father's age. So thinking about the reality of his life as a teenager and the context in which he grew up, I think it feels like I learned a lot.

Yeah. Are there any books that you are, or is there any book that you're embarrassed that you've never read before?

Way too many to mention. No, I mean, there's not one, but there are many. I've never read King Lear.

I love King Lear. I feel like, I know I've seen Succession, but yeah, I've never read King Lear. I mean, there are, I think the reality is, and this is sort of that problem of super abundance.

There are more great books. If I started now, I'm 45 years old, in red, nonstop until I died, there would still be books that I was, not even embarrassed that I haven't read, but just like sad that I didn't get to read. I think that's, I don't really have any shame around what I haven't read.

Like, I read a lot. I'm a pretty literate person. Like, I haven't got to it yet, or it just hasn't enticed me.

But there are things that I'm like, I really should make the time to read that. When am I gonna have the time to read that? I have denied myself the joy and sort of, you know, world-changing experience of reading these things, and I don't know if I'll get to.

If you were a high school teacher, what's a book you would assign to your students?

Does it have to be fiction?

No, it could be anything. It could be math.

No, I'm probably not gonna assign them a math book. I'd probably assign that Frederick Douglass biography.

Yeah.

Or actually, I'd assign this Frederick Douglass biography, and Sarah Lewis's The Unseen Truth.

Yeah. Is there a book that you would want to see turned into a film or TV show?

Yeah, I mentioned The Intuitionist already. I think that's probably the big one for me. Also, somewhere out there in the world, there's a novel about soccer that has, I have not yet encountered or hasn't yet been written that I would like to turn into a film or television show.

So if you're working on that novel, like keep going.

Load it to The Black List, tag soccer novel.

Yeah, I mean, look, I have this dream. I was watching the World Cup, the last World Cup, and, you know, Morocco went to the semifinals, which was a really big deal.

Amazing.

And there were all these images of the players with their mothers, right? And celebrating. And I remember thinking, like, someone should write either a narrative nonfiction or a fictional version of this, that each chapter is about the experience of one mother of the player, and then sort of chronicle the qualification and the World Cup itself as like this big, epic, fractured narrative about Morocco and the diaspora.

It's giving Joy Luck Club but soccer.

Oh, much bigger than that. I'm talking like, I'm talking like, like, this is, this is like, we're talking a thousand pages, like, mission or style, like, we're going big, big.

I'm not reading in a thousand pages of a prank, but.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I get it.

Give me the Joy Luck Club 288.

I'm the one, I'm the one, like, I mean, the reason this book will never exist is I'm the one person who would buy and read it. Right, but this, this image of, like, how do you tell the story of a diaspora and you do it through familial relations and sport intrigued me somehow. So, like, adapting that fictional novel would be the thing that I would like to see done.

I don't know what that, it's probably a terrible answer.

It's a great answer. What's a movie or TV show that is better than the book?

I mean, the frustrating part about this is I know there are good answers to it and nothing is occurring to me right now.

I know, it's a hard one. That always happens to me that I can't think of it. But I think part of it is because when the movie or TV show is better than the book, that is what is in our mind.

We don't even think of it as an adaptation.

That's exactly right.

Whereas when the book is better, we associate it with the book more than the movie.

That's exactly right. I'm thinking hard and I immediately go to like, okay, what are the best adaptations? I'm like, Lord of the Rings, it feels weird to say that that's better than the book.

I never read those books or see those movies.

I read some of the books and I guess the movies are better because it was more easy. I was more excited to keep watching. I'm curious, how have other people answered this question?

I don't ask a lot of people this question, actually, because I feel like a lot of people aren't as into movies. I can tell you my answer if it's helpful. My answer is Black Clansman.

I thought the book was very mid and I thought the movie actually, I didn't think the movie was great per se, but I thought it was good and I thought it had a point of view and it had a style and an artistic design in a way that the book just did not. The book was so flat and so politically kind of iccy mild and I thought the movie was like, it really brought the story to life.

This is a cheat of an answer, but The Wire.

Okay. I didn't even know that was a book.

Well, it's technically not. David Simon did a year in a homicide group and wrote a book about that and then he did The Corner, which was directly adapted into The Corner. And The Wire is essentially a synthesis of all of that work along with his reporting that he then translated into fiction.

Total cheat. But for whatever reason, but there was like underlying narrative material that became The Wire and so screw it. I'm going to take probably the best television show of all time and say it was better than the book.

That's a terrible answer. That's going to haunt me for years.

It's fine. Well, when you come back to do Nickel Boys, if you come up with a different answer, we can start. I will re-ask you at the top before we even dive into it.

Perfect.

Okay. Last, last, last, last, last one. If you could require the current president of the United States to read one book, what would it be?

Give Joe something fun at this point. Like honestly, I'm assuming that he's not reading anything until he's done with being the president. But like just give Joe something light and airy.

I feel like he's, you know, yeah, I don't, you know, if we're talking next president, former presidents, I might be able to make recommendations. But like, yeah, Joe, Joe's, I want Joe on a beach with a cocktail and Jill.

We're giving Joe Emily Henry. We're giving him Kennedy Ryan. Okay, amazing.

Yeah, or like Conclave feels like, actually Conclave is the book that I'd give Joe.

Oh, yes.

Joe is Catholic. Joe probably loves a thriller.

He loves a succession narrative.

Yeah, he loves a succession narrative. There we go. That's the answer.

I love that.

Put Joe on a beach with a cocktail, Jill reading a book beside him, maybe some ice cream on an hourly basis. Let that man reconclave and enjoy his life.

I love it. All right, everybody, this has been a conversation with Franklin Leonard. Check out everything on The Black List.

I'm linking to everything we talked about today in the show notes, including social media, all of that. And Franklin will be back on October 30th for our discussion of The Nickel Boys by Colson Whitehead, which will have spoilers. So read the book.

You guys have five weeks. Franklin, thank you so much for being here.

No, thank you so much for having me.

And everyone else, we will see you in The Stacks.

All right, y'all, that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening, and thank you again to Franklin Leonard for being my guest. And I'd also like to say a huge thank you to Elisa Suarez and Randy Winston for helping to make this conversation possible.

Don't forget, The Stacks Book Club pick for October is The Nickel Boys by Colson Whitehead, and Franklin Leonard will be back to discuss that book with us on Wednesday, October 30th. If you love this show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/thestacks to join The Stacks Pack, and you can check out my newsletter at traciethomas.substack.com. Make sure you're subscribed to The Stacks where you listen to your podcasts.

And if you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, be sure to leave us a rating and a review. For more from The Stacks, follow us on social media at The Stacks Pod on Instagram, threads and TikTok and at The Stacks Pod underscore on Twitter. And you can check out our website at thestackspodcast.com.

This episode of The Stacks was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Megan Caballero. Our graphic designer is Robin McCright, and our theme music is from Tagirages. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

]]>Ep. 339 A Hype Man for the Writing Community with Franklin LeonardEp. 338 Jazz by Toni Morrison — The Stacks Book Club (Eve Dunbar)Stacks AssistantWed, 25 Sep 2024 07:00:00 +0000https://www.thestackspodcast.com/2024/09/25/ep-338-jazz65d2b7a49de6215855aa3aaa:66084694f1e135566828a41a:66f0d82da5f5204ac965b774

It’s The Stacks Book Club Day, and we’re discussing Jazz by Toni Morrison. Professor Eve Dunbar joins us to explore the lives of Joe and Violet Trace, as their relationship is tested by love, betrayal, and violence in 1920s Harlem. In today's discussion, we dive into the significance of the book’s title and how it informs the novel’s improvisational style. We also examine Morrison’s relationship with her characters, the power of naming, and her exploration of closeness through violence.

There are spoilers on today's episode.

Be sure to listen to the end of today’s episode to find out what our October book club pick will be.

LISTEN NOW

Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Google Podcasts | Overcast | Stitcher | Transcript

  

Everything we talk about on today’s episode can be found below in the show notes and on Bookshop.org and Amazon.

To support The Stacks and find out more from this week’s sponsors, click here.

Connect with Eve: Twitter
Connect with The Stacks: Instagram | Twitter | Shop | Patreon | Goodreads | Substack | Subscribe

To contribute to The Stacks, join The Stacks Pack, and get exclusive perks, check out our Patreon page. If you prefer to support the show with a one time contribution go to paypal.me/thestackspod.

The Stacks participates in affiliate programs. We receive a small commission when products are purchased through links on this website.

TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Traci Thomas 0:09

Welcome to the stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Traci Thomas, and it is the Stax book club day. Toni Morrison month edition. We are diving into jazz by Toni Morrison with our returning guest professor, Eve Dunbar, set in 1920s Harlem Morrison's novel intricately weaves together the lives of Joe and violet trace as their tumultuous relationship is tested by secrets, betrayal and a haunting past. Today, Eve and I discuss the form and function of this novel, The naming of characters and what makes Toni Morrison so dang good. There are spoilers on today's episode, and be sure to listen all the way to the end to find out what our October book club pick will be. Quick reminder, everything we talk about on each episode of the stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. If you love this show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/the stacks and join the stacks pack. I cannot make this show without the support of the stacks pack. And for just $5 a month, you get to be part of that community. You get to be on the discord. You get to get bonus monthly episodes. You get to come to our virtual book club meetups. You get to know that by joining the show, you make it possible for me to make the show, and you get this fun little perk, which is shout outs on the podcast. So here's a huge thank you to some of our newest members of the stacks, Jessica brandial, Sarah Lyle, Maya Schechter, Jacqueline, Tricia manginello, Amanda Seeley, Anne bonley And Megan. Thank you all so so much. Also, if you're less interested in being part of a bookish community, but you still want to support the work of the show, might I suggest you head over to Traci thomas.substack.com to subscribe to my newsletter called unstacked. It'll go directly into your email inbox. You will get my hot takes, my opinions. Keep up with all the events I've got coming, and of course, you will be helping to support the show. Again, that's Traci thomas.substack.com Okay, now it is time for my conversation with Eve Dunbar about Toni Morrison's novel jazz music.

All right, everybody. It is the stacks book club day. I am really excited. It is Toni Morrison month. We are talking about jazz, and we are joined again by author, professor, generally, crowd pleasing. Favorite guest, Eve, Dunbar Eve. Welcome back. Thank

Eve Dunbar 2:41

you. I'm excited.

Traci Thomas 2:42

The people love you, Eve. I knew they would. I was as we were recording. I was like, Oh, this is, this is really good. So no pressure, no pressure. Okay, before we dive into the actual book, let me tell folks. Let me do like, a quick sort of synopsis, though, this one is, it's a hard one to synopsis, so we're gonna do it kind of short. It's about a couple, Joe and violet, living in New York City in the 1920s 1920s and they have moved from the south. They're in their 50s, and Joe, at the start of the book, has taken a lover who he has also murdered, and Violet has gone to the funeral to slash the face of this young, 18 year old woman, girl whose name is Dorcas. And then the book sort of zooms out and in, taking us to their past and moving forward in the future. And that's really the synopsis, yeah, I think I think so. Yeah, it's like about people in their lives. Okay, we always start here. First of all, how many times have you read this book, approximately, and what do you generally think of it?

Eve Dunbar 3:55

Um, I've probably read it at least five or six times at this point. Well, I'm a terrible memory. So which is great for Morrison, because every time you read Morrison, one, you're a different person. We talked a little bit about that last time. And two, you can't every sentence is so full you never get it completely. So it's, she's just a great author for kind of going back to and being like, oh, did that happen? Or I don't remember this thing. So, yeah, it's always like the first time in some ways. And

Traci Thomas 4:43

what do you think of jazz generally? I big thoughts.

Eve Dunbar 4:47

It's one of my favorites, only because, you know, I think about it in light of what she's trying to do in. Thinking about, I mean, for us, they would be myth people living in the middle of their lives, right, and having lived through segregation, or in the midst of segregation, grown up in a period post emancipation, right? What does that mean? What? How do you build a life when your life had been so constricted for the first part? And what does it mean to sort of come into your freedom at 50, you know, in the middle of your life? What kinds of disappointments, what kinds of like beauty is there? So I really like that element that she's really thinking about always, she's always thinking about freedom, but thinking about, like, what does freedom feel like when you're not a kid and you're on the second act? Yeah? Yeah.

Traci Thomas 5:55

I hadn't really thought about it sort of being I had thought about it being framed as, like, post emancipation, but I hadn't really thought about also the idea of freedom, and specifically being like in the Harlem Renaissance for that freedom, right? Like, that's like, a very specific time and place to be exploring that as well.

Eve Dunbar 6:11

Yeah, I think that that's really important, because the way we understand the Harlem Renaissance as this period for, you know, so much is happening for black people across the country, not just in Harlem, but like, Yeah, this is a moment historically where a lot of black people are moving in ways they've never moved right up from the south during that great migration, and just kind of thinking freedom looks like one thing, because segregation has felt like com, like oppression, like absolutely oppressive, and moving to these spaces where you think you're going to have this completely different experience, and it is very different, but really trying to navigate. What does that even mean for me as a black person, and so the Renaissance is like just this great moment to set the book in for me,

Traci Thomas 7:10

yeah? Okay, I'm gonna be honest with you, yeah, yeah, the book, I struggled. This was hard. This was really hard for me, yes, so I will tell you what I loved, okay, because there was a lot, there was a lot that I loved. And I think what I struggled with is not actually a criticism of the book. It was a challenge of the book. So, like, there's nothing that I didn't like, but what I loved, I love her dialog. I love her scenes. She gives you the juiciest scenes ever, like the scene between Hunter's Hunter and golden gray. Are you kidding me? Are you kidding me? That scene is like, Oh my God, and like, the dialog is so good. So I loved that. I felt like I could see the work and the craft a lot in this book. Like I could see that she was trying to make the writing feel like jazz music in the ways that, like we see these scenes, and then she sort of remixes them in the same chapter and goes back and comes like, I felt like I could see the idea of this book very clearly as a reader, which I was excited by. I was like, Oh, I see what she's doing here. Where I struggled is I felt really unmoored by the plot, like, I sort of was like, What is, what is this book? Like? I don't know what I read like, I don't know where I'm supposed to feel like, by the end, I was like, I don't even know what ha what's happened here. I have, like, I felt very like, What? What? Right, almost like, yeah, like it was almost like I had read a collection of short stories that were interconnected. But by the end, it sort of was like, well, the connections, like, I don't know, it just felt like it fell apart for me at the end. And I don't know what happened? I don't

Eve Dunbar 9:03

know if I can answer that necessarily, but what I can say is that you sort of already described it when you said it. You can see the riff that she's doing on jazz, right? So what you're describing, I think, is what happens with jazz, right? Everybody comes to the table and they know, this is, this is a this is we're going to play a song together, or, in this case, we're going to read a book together. This we're going to be in a book, right? If, if we go from the character's perspective, and what she allows is, okay, here's the book, and the book is talking to us, right? The book is the thing. And I'm not going to necessarily follow a linear narrative, right? We have a beginning, we have an end, and everything that happens in the middle is jazz. Everything, right? Like there's no people are playing similar notes. But. Going to play them differently. And I think if you kind of enter the book with whatever your understanding of jazz music is, I think that your expectation that you're going to get this thing that feels good or this thing that you can completely contain, you can let go of that, right, and instead experience all of these different threads for what they are, and get to the end and sort of watch these two care violet and Joe, pull the world up with their covers, and feel like, okay, I've done something. I might not have liked every note, or I might not have liked every line, but like, everything together has created something really particular. I don't know if that's, yeah,

Traci Thomas 10:47

that's sort of how I felt. Like, I sort of felt like, uh, like, like, almost like false starts for me, like there were sections where there'd be so much description of, like, a place or a moment, or whatever. And I was just like, who are we talking like? I would get lost in what was happening, and then we would come because, like, almost every chapter sort of has, like, a lot of, a lot of description, and then, like, the action of the chapter. And in my mind, I was thinking about that as jazz, as like, going, like, the sort of like, playing around, playing around, and then you go back to the melody, or, like, go back to the main line of the song, right? And so there would be these, like, she would preview maybe what was gonna happen, and then she would do all this description, and then she would come back to the thing she had previewed, and, like, play it out for you. And so again, I thought that was really cool, because I felt like I could see what the idea was, but some of the execution was harder for me. Like, I would be like, who, who's talking again. Or can I am I? Can I

Eve Dunbar 11:48

ask you, this is sort of, yeah. Do you like jazz music? Not really well. Yeah. I'm not a huge jazz music listener either. But you know, when you sit down to listen to it, or if it's playing, you just kind of, you ride right, and you enjoy the note that you enjoy, or you enjoy that instrument, and that person's riff on the line right, and then the next person gets a shot. And yeah, and I feel like, especially with those characters, and maybe the main ones, Violet, Joe and Dorcas, you know, like they're all incomplete, they're all flawed. Dorcas is kind of too young to to hate, but I think right, you're sub at points, you're supposed to kind of see her as like a petty child who's playing with grown folks lives. But did she deserve to be murdered? No Right. But I think like even at the level of those kind of main characters, Morrison wants you to kind of align yourself, realign yourself, come back, go forward, you know. And in that way, the jazz of characterization, I think, is, is what she really gets well for you as a reader. And again, yes, if that's not your your bit, then you can get the book just like, Well, yeah, I

Traci Thomas 13:21

think that's exactly right. And I don't like again, none of this is really criticism of what she did. I think she executed exactly what she set out to execute. But for me as a reader, it's just really not the kind of book that feels satisfying to me, especially like when I think about, like a Sula or a song of salt, like it's like, because on the show, we've been reading through everything. Like, for example, last year we read tar baby, and that ending is extremely vague and unsatisfying in a totally different way, right? It's like that book ends and you're like, what? He's blind, like he's on a Island. What's happened here, but it's in line with the story. And this book sort of ends, and it's almost like a totally different thing has started in that last little, kind of mini chapter, yeah, but I do think there's this one line super early in the book where Violet is doing a woman's hair, and she's like talking about what's going on in her life. And the woman's like, are you trying to rival like a dead person? And she says, You can't rival the dead for love you lose every time. And to me, I underlined it when I read it, and I think it is like, sort of the thesis of the entire book, right? Like everyone's grappling with the dead people in their lives, whether it's Dorcas or, in Dorcas case, like trying to find some connection to her parents, or, in Joe's case, trying to, like, connect with wild or whoever. Like, there's this and orcas, but there's this, like, underlying factor of like, all of these people are trying to figure. Out how to rival the dead for love, and they're all like, failing Alice, like, it's like everybody,

Eve Dunbar 15:07

yeah and again, just in some way, she gives you the thesis within the first, like 10 pages.

Traci Thomas 15:17

Well, let's talk about the first Okay, let me tell you my reading experience, because I think you'll appreciate this. I opened the book. The first word of the book is S, T, H, like, sucking teeth. And I was like, What the fuck is this like, what is this word? And then I read the sentence, and I was like, Oh, okay. And then I got to the bottom of the first or the end of the first paragraph, and I had to put the book down and go on my Instagram and be like, you guys, I have found the perfect first paragraph in all of literature. Then I go back to the book, and I read all the way to the end of the first section, which, you know, is it in my copy, it's just like, it's like two and a half pages later, and it ends with, what turned out is, who shot whom. And I literally wrote in my book Tony set this shit all the way the fuck up, like it is the greatest, it is the greatest introduction to a book I think I have ever read. I was so hooked. I think it is a spectacular start, like, I don't even know the first paragraph is an entire short story, yeah, like with the parrot saying I love you. She's killing the My God. And then the chapter ends with that parrot again, with the I love it. The first chapter of this book was unbelievably good to me. I think it is the best Toni Morrison little thing I've ever read. I like to me, I was just like, holy cow, unreal. I don't know, what do you think? You're a writer. I'm sure you think about

Eve Dunbar 17:04

these. I love the first sentence because you're like, who is this who is this person? Who is this narrator, who seems pissed from sentence one, right? Yeah, I know that woman, right. So now I just love the way that that opening line invites you into, you know, gossip, really, yes, right? We love gossip, right? And it's sort of like when you read it's very different, very different tone from The Bluest Eye, which, you know, quiet as it's kept. There were no, you know, which is a different secret, which is a different secret, right? So she's to, sort of, okay, there's, this is a book that's about death one, but it's also a book about love, right? And then it's also a book about secrets. Who keeps secrets? Who do we keep our secrets from? What are the biggest secrets of anybody's life? Like it's so it has all of this intrigue from that first sentence, right? And that first section. So, yeah, I, I always love it. My favorite lines, though, are also in the first section. She just is, like on her shit here, in the spirit about the razor buildings. No, it's the description of violet, right? So she says violet did the dance steps. The Dead Girl used to do all that when she had the steps down pat her knees, just so everybody, including the ex boyfriend, got disgusted with her, and I can see why it was like watching this is the line for me, like watching an old street pigeon pecking the crust of a sardine sandwich that the cats left Behind right like to describe violets. Like this is her attempt at, I don't even know. It's not retrobution. It's her attempt at, like, trying to figure out why Joe would do her like he did her. And everybody watching her is like, You're disgusting, like you're trying to mimic this dead girl, and you look like the part of a sandwich. Alley cats don't want, you know, and pigeons, it's like the lowest of the low. And so to think about like, how do you even come up with that description of a person? And to me, every time I read it, I'm like, Oh, that's so low. Tony. That's so low to describe her in this way. So I just love that.

Traci Thomas 19:44

I love that too. I love that about her. I think, like in some more contemporary fiction now, authors don't are thinking about how they don't want to, quote, unquote, judge their characters. Or there's this like idea that, like you. You can't like that. Authors shouldn't be judging their characters, and I'm so fundamentally opposed to that. I think that what Toni Morrison does so well is judge her characters. She is not kind to them or generous with them. She sees them as they are, and she reflects that information to us in a way that, like I have another line in or another section in that same first part, where it's after we learned about the baby getting stole her taking the baby, and she says that violet, you know, is angry, and she snatches her bag. And then that's the last time I do a favor for anyone on this block, watch your own damn babies. And she thought of it that way ever after remembering the incident as an outrage to her character. And I wrote, I know exactly who Violet is, like these little sentences, she's that woman who's like, she's fucked up, she did a bad thing. But then she gets in. She's Trump in some ways. She gets indignant when you call her out, right? And it's like, Oh, I was just trying to watch your baby. And it becomes this whole thing in her mind. And every time the baby comes up, you know, she's gonna bring up. I was just watching that girl's baby, and she wouldn't told everybody, right? And that she spins these ideas out in her mind so that she's never in the wrong she's never the bad guy. She's always the aggrieved person. And I just, like, in that one sentence, I could just imagine, you know, she's that, that Auntie you have who's, like, bitter and old and, yeah, crabby. I feel like that's

Eve Dunbar 21:27

yes. And I think, like, the thing that about that scene that's so interesting to me to go to what you're saying about Morrison and someone she has no favorites, right? Yes, yes. And Violet is is aggrieved in a variety of ways, is troubled, and she also is like a human being. So she does weird, like she tries to, I don't know if she's stealing this baby necessarily. I think she is in a in a state, right? And in the book, Morrison talks about that state like as kind of falling into the cracks of life, that she has these moments where she isn't herself and is beside herself. And you know, you could say different people would say she has a second sense, right? She can, she can see things that other people can't see. Blah, you know, some people would say she's crazy. So on that street, you have people who like, see this young girl who's just left a baby with a stranger, and they're like, who leaves a baby with a stranger. And then there are other people who are like, That lady is crazy, right? And in some ways we don't know as readers where we stand, where we stand, or you fit, or you can stand in multiple places. And I feel like that is a gift that she, that Morrison, gives us as readers. Is the is the opportunity, over and over and again, yes, to come to a different relationship with a character, see them in that moment as like that auntie who can't be wrong, but also in the next moment to see them as somebody who is breaking like she's literally breaking with kind of, in that case, a mother want, a mother desire or desired, a mother that's passed her by, right? We know that they've, they've not, she and Joe haven't had children, but that might be something that she had wanted. They tried. It didn't work. And so it's like just this, really, for me, not even complex, because that's to say simple. Say it simply. But like this, really human, like human characterization.

Traci Thomas 23:42

I think you're so right about the opportunities that Toni Morrison gives her readers to see the characters over and over in different ways. Because even though where the book starts, I was like, Oh, I know who Violet is by the end, I felt differently about her. But I don't think that Toni Morrison changes her approach, right? She doesn't, all of a sudden soften to violet and put violet like, she just keeps giving us this information, yeah, and like, maybe, you know, I definitely do think she judges her characters in the sense that she has a point of view about them, right? Very strong. But she also gives us the space to have our own points of view by giving us a lot of information about them in these little tidbits and moments. And I think one of the things that Toni Morrison doesn't get enough credit for is being funny. Oh yeah,

Eve Dunbar 24:29

she's hilarious. Funny. Well, that's why, like that cat, like the pigeon scene, like, it's hilarious. It's so rude. She's so rude.

Traci Thomas 24:38

Yes, and like, I think, you know, it's like this almost. I use this word a lot to describe writers who sort of do the same thing. It's like this meanness. She's not nice to people in her books. And I appreciate that, because it makes the people feel so real. It's like, of course, if you saw this woman doing that dance, you would be like, ew. Maybe you wouldn't come up with crusty birds. Bed that nobody wants to eat, but you would be like, Oh, she's doing the Mo's. This is so embarrassing. That feeling of like, ick, this is it, yeah. And I love that she gives us the opportunity to feel icky about these people, because then when you come to find out the backstory, or whatever you get to feel like about these people. And if you didn't feel the ick, you probably wouldn't feel the Yeah, really very good vocabulary by me. I

Eve Dunbar 25:29

think that's I think that's it, though, I think that that like real emotional response, and I think that's what we don't give each other most of the time because we don't, maybe partners, perhaps children, but like we don't give our friends necessarily, because we can't be as close to them for as long as we are to partners and perhaps kind of close family members like the opportunity to make mistakes, to be wrong and like, mad wrong, like, really wrong, right? And come back to you, or come back to Yeah, come back to some good place with you. I think in this culture especially, we are like, Okay, I'm done. Like, we're never talking again, ghosts block, whatever the discourse is, or whatever the button you push is to just sort of get rid of this person. I think, like, that's where we are as a culture right now. I feel that. But I think Morrison, and especially in setting it in the 20s, especially in kind of creating characters, rich characters, is like, Okay, what if you don't throw folks away? Like, how do you live with the man who cheated on you with a teenager right downstairs, you know, right in your apartment building? How do you keep living with that man? Perhaps you're going to be kind of gross and try to, like, mimic this kid, but like, there's other stuff that happens in between that gets you from that absolute violation to a friendship with that that person again. So I think that she kind of represents in the fiction, the possibility of ongoing friendship after violation, which I think we probably all need to see or experience. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 27:30

and also, like, we're getting to see some really intimate stuff of people in a way that, like, you just don't get to people that you're building relationships with, right? Like, it takes a lot of time, but here we get to do it in 229, pages, right, right? We just, she cuts right to the quick. Yeah. And speaking of cutting, there is so much cutting razor imagery in this book, and I'm not really a close reader, but I noticed this, and I'm wondering what what is that? What does it mean? What do you make of it? I

Eve Dunbar 28:02

mean, I could go academic on you and just please and say, you know, there's this whole idea, because we're dealing with working class people, right? There's this, like blues idea that violence is a form of intimacy. There are a couple of blues scholars who write about that, who write about the way that, let's say, a Jeep joint or a club, a blues club, in the early part of the century, the way that those working class people kind of engaged with one another entailed a certain amount of violence and love and sex and all of those things and that that is a form of bodily autonomy and control over one's life. I don't know if I buy it necessarily, but you do see it in the blues. You know, blues music has a lot of violence and and although the book is called Jazz, Morrison is also kind of keyed into blues, a blues tradition. And so I think that what she's trying to get at, and I forget the character's name there, she's talking to her, Alice, I think who is talking about how she's trying to get out of like she's violence averse. I can't remember if I if I find it, I'll reference it. She's violence averse, and she considers like upward mobility, right, as the key to escaping the kind of violence of of working class life. I don't know if I believe that necessarily, but I think Morrison is trying to kind of think about that right, like what kinds of intimacies are available in condoned. Right in different contexts, class context, regional context. And I'll tell this story only because it reminds me, I was at my grandmother's funeral, my uncle and my grandmother's from South Carolina. My uncle was like, you know, when we were kids, we would go back down south every summer, and we were at so and so's house, and somebody did something. And, you know, my mother, my grandmother, pulled out a razor, and they were and they got to and they were about to cut each other, her and her, like cousin, and he was, like, it was so crazy. And so I just think about, like, a different time when this kind of intimacy and violence was, I don't know, I don't want to say common, but you know what could break out, and so I don't, I think that Morrison is just kind of trying to capture that, that time when This kind of intimacy and violent intimacy was probably a little more commonplace for a lot more people. That

Traci Thomas 31:07

makes sense. And also, I think the difference between, like, I mean, nowadays we hear a lot about this. Like to shoot someone, yeah, is very distant, but to cut, to stab someone is like a crime of passion, yeah? And so I do think, because we have Joe shooting Dorcas, and then we have violet coming with the razor to cut her at like that, there is this like attempt, like that. Violet is attempting this intimacy with this dead girl in the same way that she's trying on her dance moves and trying to, you know, get the picture. Yeah, I was, like, you messy, so weird.

Unknown Speaker 31:43

So

Traci Thomas 31:45

it's like, oh, Violet is so cringe to me. And I just, I'm like, Violet, honey, please. Like, please, Violet. But I do. I hadn't thought about it in that way until you said that. But that makes, that makes so much sense, even

Eve Dunbar 31:59

Joe's choice to use that. I mean, there's all this, like, women don't use guns men, you know, blah, blah, blah, yeah, like, like, the gender choice of the of the violence, but even Joe's choice of a gun, like, he's so close when he shoots violent, right? That's what's also terrible. And so I just think, like all these folks, or these two folks in particular, these two characters, are trying to get at a closeness that they don't have either capacity or access to through simply words, right? Because we have these beautiful scenes, and it's so messed up to call them beautiful, but when Joe and violet, or Joe and Dorcas kind of spend the night together, and you know, Morrison describes how Joe is telling her things that he's never told anybody in his entire life, because she's the first person that he's ever chosen to talk to tell like, that's a deep intimacy. It's inappropriate, absolutely, but I think, like, that's the thing. Like, what is a part of me just in talking to you right now, I'm thinking, like, what does Morrison want us to know about intimacy? It's appropriate. When is it appropriate? How? What's the appropriate way to express it? Yeah,

Traci Thomas 33:30

okay, wait, I have to ask you this, because age gap has come up a few times this year on this podcast. We just did Parable of the Sower, which has a famously large age gap relationship as well, and obviously, like we've never done Lolita on the show, but that's another book. What do you think? And I'm asking you to speculate here. Okay, so I know you don't know, but what do you think is so interesting about age gap romances that so many, like great writers, spend time and energy doing it like, to me, I'm sort of just like, at a place in my life where I'm like, That's icky, like, I don't want to be here, and I wonder why. There are other things that are icky that I also don't care about, like, don't want to spend time with. But I feel like maybe don't get the same kind of treatment as this sort of older man, younger woman, and especially in the way where it's like almost not a celebration of it, but like a humanizing of it, like making us want to feel sympathy towards Joe in some ways, right, even though not only is he a man in his 50s who's with an 18 year old girl, but he also then murders her like he should be Our villain. And Toni Morrison spends a lot of time trying to make us feel for him. And I'm just wondering, like, Why? Why? And again, I know you're speculating. I don't

Eve Dunbar 34:49

know. I think, I mean, part of me thinks like we're in a different cultural moment where we see the inappropriateness. Because we have a different lens to talk about power. And then they had even, like, 30 years ago, right, right? I think everybody in the book thinks that what Joe has done with Dorcas is inappropriate. Yes, I don't know if in Lolita, like, right? You get that same ex, the same presumption, and she's way younger, too. But I think that, I think it has to do with masculinity and power, ultimately, right? Like that men, and that's why it's important that Violet is also here as that kind of middle aged, past her prime, still, we know that she's beautiful, like she gets a young boyfriend, she's trying to outdo Joe by getting a younger boyfriend, so she can pull a young dude. So

Traci Thomas 35:52

she's, yeah, she's and so I think Felice says she's hot, yeah, you know, she's

Eve Dunbar 35:56

an attractive middle aged woman. But I think, like, the culture has always been obsessed with youth and beauty, and Dorcas has that she's also like, complected, right? Like so Morrison is playing on all these tropes of like, what makes somebody desirable, and I do not know why. I think I want to say like men, men like this story because, yeah, they get, they get to live out fantasies about, like, being with, like, young girls. I think Morrison is really, again, trying to think about these questions of appropriate, like, what's appropriate, what's what is the proper or the less violent way to love when at you know, we're just at this point, 60 years like two generations out of enslavement, like a group of people have never had the opportunity, or have are just very new to the opportunity to couple in the way that they want to couple and build lives and families with the people that they want to life like or love like. How do you navigate? How do you know what the right thing to do is? How do you know? So I think she's interested in these questions. I don't know what to do with I mean, the thing that she does with Joe is make him a crying mess from the beginning to you know what I mean, so like, you build sympathy if you're sympathetic to him, because always,

Traci Thomas 37:32

and he's the only, he's the only male perspective that we get. Yeah, we hear about other men in the book, but we hear from Alice, or we see from Alice's side, we see from Felice, we see from violet, we see from Dorcas, and then it's just Joe. And I think when I in my reading that that in addition to like being like the crying, sopping, sort of weak, whatever gender norm mess, it does sort of feminize him. Yeah, right, like it does, there's no other man to compare him to. Really, there are other men in the story, but he, it's like, you compare Alice to violet, yeah, you compare Dorcas to Felice. Like, it's right there for you to do that, yeah? And with Joe, it's sort of just like, and then there's Joe, yeah, the

Eve Dunbar 38:15

sad boy. Very complete sad boy, yeah. Um,

Traci Thomas 38:19

wait, hold on, we should take a really quick break, and then we'll come right back. Okay, we're back. Continue with your thought about, we were talking about Joe being a sad boy, yeah,

Eve Dunbar 38:30

he's just a complete sad boy who needs to figure out for himself, like, why he's messing with a kid. And I think she gives us the rationale throughout the book as to, you know, why

Traci Thomas 38:46

we should talk about, let's talk about Joe's backstory. Because, as I mentioned before, first of all, the moment golden gray is is exposed to us. I was like, there it is. There's our tragic mulatto. We found him. He is here. He like, I mean, as soon as I figured I was like, flagged, flagged. I always love the tragic mulatto in any book. I'm always looking for it because I myself, am, you know, I am one, not though I don't think I'm tragic, you know, but I just especially the male one like this, like pretty boy, privileged, pretty golden boy. I mean, he's literally a golden boy. His name is golden. His skin is golden. He has gray eyes. He, his last name is gray. He, he's the cast off child of doesn't even know it until you know the action where he starts, comes in. He's looking for his dad, and then he stumbles across a wild woman who His name is wild. I mean

Eve Dunbar 39:49

the names, the names, it's thin, thinly nailed, yeah,

Traci Thomas 39:53

I love the names. I mean the reveal of Joe's last name, Joe. Trace. Left without a trace. I gasped. I was literally like, Oh my God, of course. It was like, he got to pick his own name. I'm like, why did he pick trace? Like, what? And then it's like, your parents left without a trace. And then he goes to school and says, that's his name. Oh my god. Anyways, but all of the characters in Joe's story, all of their names are very thinly veiled. We've got golden Gray, the golden boy. We've got wild the wild woman. We've got the dad, whose name is Henry lestorie, or, I think that's how it's pronounced, but there's some opportunity for change, but whose nickname is Hunter's Hunter, because he's a good hunter. And then, of course, the cat King, the cat who is a girl cat without a personality named for like a royal dog or something. I just loved that little bit. But yes, so the whole coming together of the stories and the fact that golden gray is actually raised by Violet's grandmother, I found that to be so fascinating, because it's almost like this faded mates, kind of love story. Then for Joe and violet, it's like he falls out of a tree at the feet of a woman who is connected to his origin story, for the his birth, like he doesn't exist, potentially, if not for Golden Gray, saving his mom, but also maybe he exists in a totally different way, if not for Golden Gray, startling his mom, right?

Eve Dunbar 41:27

I think that that, but you, what you just said, is the key to me in terms of why, maybe why he's such a sad boy, not just because of the kind of general sadness, but that that he had, that this is faded, right? Like that, the life that he is living is not the life that he chose, necessarily, yes,

Traci Thomas 41:51

right? And that's what makes dork is so exciting, because he they have

Eve Dunbar 41:55

that whole bit like he got chosen by violet. He didn't do the choosing, but this is the thing that he chooses. And so I think Morrison is going to give you the go back and give you all of this coincidence and, and ultimately, the fadedness. But you know, in traditional storytelling that fadedness would be the key to romance, right? That violet and Joe are fated to be together, and we should be happy, but Right?

Traci Thomas 42:29

And even, and also like, because his story almost reads like a fairy tale, right? It's like this Golden Boy, this prince, this rich, pretty boy. He saves the damsel in distress, who is pregnant, who has this son, who learns to be a great hunter by Hunter's Hunter. And he should go off into the world. And, you know, meet the damsel who, or meet the woman who, he falls out of the tree. And we should have this hero. And instead, he is our pathetic, sad boy loser who's dating an 18 year old and I mean, like, it's like he's set up in every way for to be the hero, but because of the way the book is written, we know that he's sort of a failed person when we get this backstory. But even the way that section is written. It felt really different to me. It felt like a it felt like a fairy tale, sort of in the midst. And

Eve Dunbar 43:27

I think that the fairy tale right element ultimately has to fail, because we're talking about black characters too. Sure you know what I mean, like that. The reality is that these fairy tale endings are historically inaccessible, right to to African Americans post emancipation into segregation, and so I think, like again more since working all these threads to bring you back to Okay, so what do we do when we have all the elements of, or the plot elements and character elements for, for fairy tale, but then you're talking about America, and you're talking about black characters who have to find a different way to access the fairy tale, or a different fairy tale, right? Yeah. And I think that's that to me, because I don't want to get in, you know, I'm not a sad sack, necessarily. I don't think that, you know, black life, I'm not a pessimist is like nothing but sadness. And I don't think Morrison, like, that's why you have the ending to this novel that you have. She's like, Okay, you have all of this, all of this historical reality, all of your personal mental health problems, and yet there's still possibility that you can find love, that you can find friendship, that you can find your way back to something that feels a little more. Goal. And I think that possibility and crafting possibility for black characters is what I think a lot of people love about Morrison.

Traci Thomas 45:09

Yeah, I think that's exactly right. I think the scene we have to talk about, the scene between Hunter's Hunter and and golden gray where, because I think one of the things, you know, there's that famous clip of Morrison being interviewed, and the woman's like, Well, would you ever write about white people? And she's like, You don't understand how profoundly racist This is, yeah. But I think this book is really interesting, because the way that whiteness shows up in this book, the way that she drags white people without ever giving she gives us one white character or two, I guess, if you include the dad of or the grandfather of golden Gray, but the way that she, like, inserts the violence of whiteness. But then there's the line between the scene between them. I gotta find it. Yeah. I mean again, the Gasp again, where he says he's like, I didn't come down here to court you or get your approval. He said, I know what you came for to see how black I was. You thought you was white, didn't you? She probably let you. She probably let you think it. Hope you'd think it, and I swear I'd think it too. And then he goes on, he says, you know, they've got free n words. And he says, I don't want to be a free N word. I want to be a free man. And free man. And then Henry says, Well, don't we all look be what you want, white or black, choose. But if you choose black, you got to act black, meaning, draw up your manhood quick, like and don't bring me no white boy sass. And truly, I gasped again that like she tells you everything about whiteness in just that one little exchange. And it is, it is unbelievable, because I think back to that quote of her saying, like, you don't understand how preliminary, wasted it is, but she is engaging with white culture in her work, and even though she centers black people, you know not to be too Kamala, but you exist in the context of everything that came before you. Absolutely there is no blackness without whiteness and vice versa. And there is no 1920s Harlem or 1880s Rome or wherever the fuck they are in the scene Vienna, which I also love, that all the places where, other places I'm Vienna robe,

Unknown Speaker 47:24

yeah,

Traci Thomas 47:27

but I just, I love how she it's such a trick of her writing, like it's that she slides these, these pieces in to acknowledge that there is a whole greater context to these characters, without having to be like the like, she talks about the violence and and what happens to Dorcas or, yeah, what happens to Dorcas parents and like all of that. Yeah.

Eve Dunbar 47:51

But that is the again, going back to this idea that, like, okay, so white people are here like they're, they're always, often at the periphery of her text, right there. They're never central one. But, yeah, we live in a world that is constructed by power. And she's going to show you the way power works always. And yet you have to keep living, right? And black people have historically kept living when when faced with the reality of life in a white supremacist country. And so I think, yeah, she really and that scene too is so great, because here you are a character who can pass. And you can choose, are you going to go the white way? Are you going to go the black way? And if you choose to go the black way, you have to be ready to weather this place, right? And you can't be a sad sack. You can't be bumbling. You can't you have to have a different sort of in this case, he saying, masculinity, yeah, but you have to have a different sort of vigor to make it through. And you, unlike a lot of people, you have a choice now. She's widely wisely, and so I think, like all her, yeah, she's going to drive whiteness, not because white people necessarily always suck, but many of them do in her books, because white power makes things way more difficult than it needs, than they ever need to be for all of her characters,

Traci Thomas 49:34

right? And even in that exchange between the two of them, right? You know hunters. Hunter says it. He's like, I know why you came right? And it's like, you go into that scene thinking you're gonna get one thing. You think you're gonna get golden Gray, being like, what happened? You didn't care about me, whatever. And immediately you get, I didn't even know you existed. You flip it. Flips the whole power dynamic back to the mother, right? Yeah. All of a sudden becomes this whole other. Our conversation, and again, I just think she's so good at sort of surprising and in many ways, delighting her readers in these scenes. It's like there's all these little turns and tricks where you think you know what you're gonna get, and it's never the thing that you're expecting. It's always slightly subverted or slightly, you know, fractured or broken and and just like, from a storytelling perspective, it is what makes, for me, her work enjoyable. Yeah, she sets you up in a framework that you understand. So when she, you know, just pulls the thing out from underneath you, you're like, oh shit, but it's not so crazy that she's, she's not reinventing the wheel. She's just like, put a little notch in it. It's like, oh, which I guess is a way of reinventing the whole thing well, but it's also a way

Eve Dunbar 50:51

to, again, to get at what we've been talking about, which is like, you know, you think the you think the world is going to be one way, and then you go out into the world and it's not quite what you thought. And how do you how do you find your footing again? And I think like again, this kind of, you know, when people talk about her capacity to create human characters, I think she also has a great capacity to create human situations like they may not be situations that we'd ever find ourselves in, right, you know, but that you might go into a relationship, a job, a family event, and think you're going to hear this one story, and then somebody's going to be like, Oh, no, no, no. That's not what happened. This thing happened, and then you have to, like, readjust who you thought you were, who you thought this person was, and that's the human experience that she's really gifted at. And it never feels contrived, or rarely does it feel contrived, like, I'm just doing this to, like, put you on your heels. Yeah? That that, like, it feels like, oh, yeah, the appropriate thing that a character should say in that moment, you know? And that's a, that's, that's a writerly

Traci Thomas 52:16

gift, yeah? I mean, the moment, there's a moment in the book that I wrote down in the same thing. It's very small, but it's the name violet, and then people calling you violent, yeah. And I was like, Oh, is this Oprah? Were you silent, or were you silent? You know, the moment with Meghan Markle. I was like, Oh, I now I know where Oprah got it from, because, you know Oprah,

Unknown Speaker 52:36

yeah, but it's definitely,

Traci Thomas 52:37

are you violet, or are you violent. But I think

Eve Dunbar 52:41

she's also, like, also playing with this idea that there's innate violence in women, right, that we don't see, or that somehow gets policed. To go back to what you were saying about, like, sad Joe, sad boy Joe. Like, how come he's the murderer, right? And, and everybody's calling her violent right now, right? Right, right? Violet, like, she didn't even succeed in slashing, right, because debt. She tried it, she tried it, but she didn't get there, and she knew she wasn't going to get there, right? You know? But this is

Traci Thomas 53:14

talking about in the book, yeah. I mean, there's that whole scene where Alice is talking about the violence against women, and then she's like, but God gives everyone defenses, and if you don't use it, that's on you sort of thing, which weirdly remind, do you know Shakespeare at all? Yeah, a little. It reminded me so much of the scene between Desdemona and Amelia, the willow scene, because it's the, I do think it's husband's faults if wives do stray, and that, like, sort of that intimate conversation between women about, like, what men will do and what women should do in response. And obviously it's different, because it's, you know, it's a different thing, but it just sort of is this like conversation of like, okay, well, we know men are going to be violent against women. We see it everywhere, but if women don't fight back, like that's on women. And I feel like, for whatever reason, I just that's like my favorite scene in Shakespeare. I'm always thinking of the willow scene, but it reminded me of that kind of, like, intimate, womanly conversation about what men do and what women do, and

Eve Dunbar 54:21

what the limitations of the responses that women can and the expectation,

Traci Thomas 54:25

yeah, and

Eve Dunbar 54:27

I think, I think that that's kind of again violet, to go back to the opening and the ickiness of her kind of really trying to step into Dorcas shoes, literally, is that they're just so few appropriate, socially appropriate ways of either mourning or being or responding and and you see her choose the wrong one in that you know social the socially unacceptable, and you. In the baby scene, you know, mourning the fact that she's not a mother, and then, you know, thus stealing or borrowing somebody's baby. You know, just trying to see what it's like to hold this baby down the street. But I just think, yeah, like, what are the appropriate ways for women to behave? And these are questions that everybody's been asking women authors ask over time, yeah, so

Traci Thomas 55:27

one of the things that I cannot figure out is, who is our narrator? Who is this omniscient person who knows everything and sees everything, the book,

Eve Dunbar 55:36

the city, okay? Yeah,

Traci Thomas 55:40

sure. Someone in the stacks pack said that they think it could be wild. Oh,

Eve Dunbar 55:45

I never think it's an actual person from the from the lies. I always think, and I'm trying to figure out kind of how I arrived at this all the time, because you need somebody who's who lives in Harlem, like that's who is, who's present in that contemporary moment, to open up and say, right, you know,

Traci Thomas 56:14

but that person also has to know the backstory to you, like it's so I don't I sometimes I like to just think it's Toni Morrison. She's her. She's like, No, I know that woman. I wrote about her, everybody,

Eve Dunbar 56:25

though, yeah, yes, I think it's, I think it's in part the city, I think. And then at the end, when, you know, look where your hands are, look where your hands are, like, isn't that the last line, it says, So, so, make me, remake me. You are free to do it, and I am free to let you. Because, look, look, look where your hands are now, right? And so I'm holding the book as I read this. So the book, the Talking Book, right? The book is the and this is like the Talking Book is a tradition in African American literature. You know, historically black people were not allowed to be taught to read or write, and so in a highly verbal vernacular culture, you have a different way of constructing books that's really around orality. And I think that opening line, I know that woman begins you thinking about the sound of the voice, and then at the end, when she's asking us to when the narrator is saying, look, look where your hands are now, right? You're you're called back to the the physical book itself. And so like thinking about the way a book can talk and make a world, I think is really helpful for me in thinking about who might be narrating, who might know all the know in this in this text,

Traci Thomas 57:54

okay, I want to talk about the ending really quick between Felice and Joe and violet, because in the first section that I loved so much, it ends with that they take another they take another lover, another girl, but that it ends differently in whom shot whom, or who shot whom. And I thought we were gonna get another murder at the end, but we don't, right.

Eve Dunbar 58:20

She sort of tricked us there. She tricked you into thinking that this,

Traci Thomas 58:24

that's how I read that, that it's like this one just ends differently because she says violet invited her in to examine the record, and that's how the scandalizing threesome on Lennox Avenue began. What turned out different was who shot whom. So I thought we have a murder, another murder. The whole time I was like, I was reading it, yeah, who are they gonna kill?

Eve Dunbar 58:47

But I think that, I mean, I wonder if it's better to think of about Cupid's arrow rather than an actual bullet.

Traci Thomas 58:55

That would have been smarter.

Eve Dunbar 58:56

But I think it doesn't. I think that the the real play for us is to see that if, if you're going to do this, if you're going to kind of bring a young person into your relationship, then it has to be open. You know, in this way, it's like an open relationship, like, you know what I mean, it has to be open and who shot whom? I don't know if it has to be a literal shooting, as much as, like, who, who's, you know, I don't know affecting who's, who's, like, in charge of the the emotional leverage, or the levers of love in this relationship, in this new throuple, yeah, and but that is always for me, whenever I read this book, that relationship, I'm I, I, I always, never know what to do with it.

Traci Thomas 59:58

Do you know what I'm. I don't with police in them, yeah,

Eve Dunbar 1:00:01

why? Why they need to have this young person kind of be present in their their relationship? I don't know. Do you feel like, No, I

Traci Thomas 1:00:11

don't. I don't feel clear on why? Maybe because she knew Dorcas and so she brings, she can provide them with like, like that bridge because she didn't really like Dorcas, but also she knew her and was intimate with her, so she kind of bridges the two sides of like violet, not liking her and Jove missing her, like that. There's she, I guess I don't, I don't, I think, I mean, I think that that last section after the murder scene, I really the book falls apart for like, I couldn't make sense of what I was reading. Like, even the part where it's like, she says to Joe, like, you know, Dorcas told me to tell like, to say there's only one apple, just one, tell Joe. I was like, I don't even know what that like. Am I supposed to know what that means? Like is like, like, because and her death scene, she's talking about oranges, and then all of a sudden, it's about an apple. And I just like, I started, I couldn't I felt like I was able to hold everything in the book together up until the murder scene of Dorcas, and then those last two chapters, I just was like, I don't know where I am or why.

Eve Dunbar 1:01:16

I think, yeah, I don't know how to answer

Traci Thomas 1:01:19

that. Yeah, but no, it's not really a question. It's just sort of like, yeah.

Eve Dunbar 1:01:23

It's just a reading thing. And I do think that again, this is why, when we started, I was like, you know, I read and I reread, and I still, after having read, pre read it, I'm still not sure I completely understand, I understand what I think you're right, in terms of Felice kind of being this bridge character for those two to come back together. They need this third person to stand in and in some ways, in a better way than Dorcas stood between them. But I think that for me, I'm just like, Well, okay, like, ultimately, at the end of the day, these two kind of have to find themselves together. They do find themselves back together. I guess that's a good thing. I'm not sure, but there's something there there that every time I read, I'm challenged to try to kind of come to some feeling that beyond confusion. And I still have it, I still haven't gotten there.

Traci Thomas 1:02:29

So, yeah, okay, the last thing, which is sort of where we started, just the title of the book, jazz. We talked about how it's written a lot like jazz music. The one thing I did want to mention is the word jazz is never in the book. No, and all of her other books that I've read, the title appears in the book in some way or another. My personal favorite is how it's revealed in a mercy. That's the title that I was that was my take your breath away moment in that book. It's interesting that she doesn't because there's they talk about the music, Alice talks about how bad the music is. I think that violet and Joe, in some ways, are all of the things that Alice thinks are bad about the music, sort of personified like that. They're violent and they're evil and they're crazy and all this stuff. But she never says it. Do you have any sense as to why, why it's not present, why the word isn't in the book? Yeah, it's a departure from everything else that I've read by her so far. I

Eve Dunbar 1:03:29

wonder if it would just be on the nose to have people say, and now we're listening to jazz. I also wonder if you know the what they're if they're actually because I think they're listening probably to blues, like the okay record that they that even in that early scene, it's going to probably be a blues record, but it's the Jazz Age. So I'm wondering if she's like, well, it's, it's on the nose to call it, to have jazz, to have somebody say, and now we're going to go listen to jazz. Or this is so jazzy, I guess you know what I mean. Like, it might be one of those. Just like, she doesn't say this is the Harlem Renaissance, like they

Traci Thomas 1:04:07

wouldn't have called it. She never says New York or Harlem. She also says the city.

Eve Dunbar 1:04:11

So there's no, like, direct naming of period, of place, or of musical genre, right? But I think, like, for her, the form of the text is the the naming of it. I mean, yeah, that's where I would say, that's where I leave it. And I also think, like, it gets at what she's really the unformed ness of, like, what does it mean to live through and in the middle of something, a time that when you're living through it doesn't have a name, right? Or isn't going to be named, what we would name it now, and so, like, don't drop jazz in. Because it's not like people aren't thinking like that, right, right now at that point, but now, after the fact, we as readers and listeners of music, perhaps, like, know, okay, well, this is what a jazz novel looks like, or this is what jazz music does. So I think, like it's kind of capturing the making this, that this is a that she's interested, again, in capturing what it means to make yourself right and not really have the words or the language or anything to describe completely what it is you're making. And so I feel like, actually, I like that we don't have that super imposition of the word coming out in this kind of, what I would imagine would be a weird moment if somebody were to say, now, let's go to the jazz club. Or, you know, it just would be cheap. I don't know. I don't I feel like it might be a little bit, I'm sure she could figure out how to do it so that it wasn't cheap. But I also think not doing it is just it captures the like making, the fact that this is a time, and the people being made for, you know, on their own, and they don't have the words, and they don't have the capacity to describe it completely in a single word.

Traci Thomas 1:06:27

That's such a good place to end. Okay, this was amazing. Thank you so much. Everybody. Don't forget to get your copies of monstrous work and radical satisfaction. Eve's book that comes out in November Eve. Thank you so much for being here. This was really a treat. Thank you so much, Tracy and everyone else. We will see you. Oh, wait everyone else, don't forget to listen to the end of the episode to find out our book club pick for October, and we will see you in the stacks.

All right, y'all that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening, and thank you again to Eve Dunbar for being my guest. I'd also like to say a huge thank you to friend of the pod KSA layman, for helping to make this conversation possible. All right, it is time for the announcement. You've all been waiting for our October book club pick. We are going to be reading the 2019 novel, the nickel boys, by Colson Whitehead. It is a gripping story of injustice, resilience and survival, set against the backdrop of a corrupt reform school during the Jim Crow era. The book won the Pulitzer Prize. It is being adapted to a film that comes out on october 25 and our episode will drop on October 30. You have to listen to our October 2 episode to find out who our guest will be for this discussion. And if you want 10% off your copy of nickel boys, head to rep dot club and order your copy and use the code stacks 10. That's rep dot club. Search for the book the nickel boys and use the code stacks 10 for 10% off your copy. If you love the show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/the stacks and join the stacks. Pack and check out my sub stack at Traci Thomas, dot sub stack.com make sure you're subscribed to the stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, be sure to leave a rating and a review for more from the stacks. Follow us on social media, at the stacks pod on Instagram, threads and Tiktok and at the stacks pod underscore on Twitter, and you can check out our website at the stackspodcast.com this episode of the stacks was edited by Christian Duenas, with production assistance from Megan Caballero. Our graphic designer is Robin mccright, and our theme music is from teguragis. The stacks is created and produced by me Traci Thomas.

]]>Ep. 338 Jazz by Toni Morrison — The Stacks Book Club (Eve Dunbar)Ep. 337 We Love an Ethical Scam with Laci MosleyStacks AssistantWed, 18 Sep 2024 07:00:00 +0000https://www.thestackspodcast.com/2024/09/18/ep-337-laci-mosley65d2b7a49de6215855aa3aaa:66084694f1e135566828a41a:66e89fae42e4f04db20c54ee

Actor and comedian Laci Mosley (iCarly, A Black Lady Sketch Show) joins The Stacks to discuss her new book, Scam Goddess: Lessons from a Life of Cons, Grifts, and Schemes, a hilarious and subversive essay collection inspired by her podcast of the same name. Today, we talk about the scams that shape our world and why Laci wanted to write this book. Laci offers up her takes on the different types of scams, why not all scams are bad, and how scamming has shaped her career and personal life.

Be sure to listen to the end of today’s episode to find out what our next book club pick will be.

LISTEN NOW

Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Google Podcasts | Overcast | Stitcher | Transcript

  

Everything we talk about on today’s episode can be found below in the show notes and on Bookshop.org and Amazon.

To support The Stacks and find out more from this week’s sponsors, click here.

Connect with Laci: Instagram | Twitter
Connect with The Stacks: Instagram | Twitter | Shop | Patreon | Goodreads | Substack | Subscribe

To contribute to The Stacks, join The Stacks Pack, and get exclusive perks, check out our Patreon page. If you prefer to support the show with a one time contribution go to paypal.me/thestackspod.

The Stacks participates in affiliate programs. We receive a small commission when products are purchased through links on this website.

TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Traci Thomas, and today we are joined by comedian and actor Laci Mosley to discuss her new book, Scam goddess, lessons from a Life of Cons, Grifts, and schemes. Laci is known for her award-winning podcast, Scam Goddess, and Laci's book dives into the art of the scam.

The book is part memoir sharing scams from her real life, as well as giving us a deep dive into some small-scale hustles and jaw-dropping big-time cons. Laci and I talked today about how she approached writing this book and the vulnerability she was able to find on the page, as well as Laci's theory that not all scams are in fact bad. Don't forget our book club pick for September is Jazz by Toni Morrison, and we will be discussing the book on Wednesday, September 25th with Professor Eve Dunbar.

Quick reminder, everything we talk about on today's episode of The Stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. If you love The Stacks and you want inside access to it, you should head to patreon.com/thestacks and join The Stacks Pack. It's just $5 a month and you get to be part of the best bookish community ever in the history of the universe.

You get to join us on our Discord, be part of our monthly virtual book club meetups, you get bonus episodes, and also equally important, you get to know that by joining The Stacks Pack, you make it possible for me to make the show every single week. A fun perk of joining The Stacks Pack is that you also get a shout out on this very podcast. So here's a huge thank you to our newest members, Andrea Moldovan, Sandy, MGM, Joseph Hardy, Rose, and Michelle.

Thank you all so much. And for those of you who are interested in supporting the show, but maybe don't want to be a part of a community online, you should check out my newsletter Unstacked. You go to tracytomis.substack.com.

You can keep up with all of my hot takes, my bookish opinions, and you can find out whatever else I have going on. Plus, this also supports The Stacks. All right.

Now it's time for my conversation with Laci Mosley.

All right, everybody, I'm so excited. I am joined today by Laci Mosley. She is the author of a brand new book called Scam Goddess, lessons from a Life of Cons, Grifts, and schemes.

You might know Laci as an actress. You might know Laci as a podcast host. You might know Laci as an internet person.

I don't know. I don't know how you know Laci, but I know that Laci is a fucking blast. And I'm so excited that you're here.

So welcome to The Stacks.

Thank you so much for having me.

I'm thrilled. This is fun because I got to do your show a few years ago when we did that like grifting roommate or something. And so now we get to talk about you.

You're in the hot seat this time. So I'm thrilled. In about 30 seconds or so, will you just tell folks about this book?

This book is a hybrid of real true crime stories and also my life and how I kind of fell in love with scams or became a scammer. I've worked for several drug fronts.

I've been in a shooting. And it's a wild ride, but it's a fun wild ride.

I had, I have to be honest. I'll be really honest with you. I was a little bit like, do I want to read this book?

Do I care? Like, I love the podcast. I think Laci is fun, but like, do I care?

I really liked this book. I had such a fun time with it. There were moments where I was laughing out loud.

I got to listen to it on the audio book, which you read so perfectly. I was so impressed by how you sort of weaved your own memoir with the idea of like scams in your life, like friend scams or like roommate scams or relationship scams. And then also brought in like true, like Elizabeth Finch, my personal favorite scammer.

Like I loved how you did that. And I'm wondering, was that kind of idea of taking these three separate things or like two and a half separate things and putting them together, was that always the plan for the book or was that something you kind of had to figure out how you were going to make this all work?

No, in my outline, it was always the plan. Simply because I think when people write, quote unquote, celebrity memoirs, unless you've lived a full life, like one of my favorite memoirs is Diane Keaton's. It's about her relationship with her mother.

And it kind of inspired me because it was like two-folded. It's about her life, but it's also about her relationship with her mother. And then I also really loved Diane Carroll's The Legs of the Last to Go.

And I was blessed to at least meet her once before she passed. And I loved how in Diane Carroll's memoir, there's a lot of really sad, just like racism, just like the things that she had to deal with to survive. But she made it funny.

There's like a part in her memoir where she talks about singing at some club, and there were white people there who didn't want her there, and someone threw a shoe at her on stage.

Oh shit.

And you would think this would be the most traumatic thing. She was like, they threw that shoe at me, and I can't my own finish my set.

I was like...

And I feel like as black people, like that's kind of the way. It's like everything's serious, but it's a little un-serious too.

yes, yes.

And when I was speaking to someone at another outlet, they called my book like heavy, but somehow light, and I hadn't thought of it that way. And then I remembered the memoirs that I loved, and I was like, oh, yeah, it is kind of heavy, but you have to make the best of things. And especially as a queer black woman, like I had to scam to get where I am, you know?

Right.

So you figure out an angle, you figure out a way to do it.

Right. And I feel like scamming sort of like sets, like the idea of scamming, the way we think about it in the culture now, it is sort of like always a little bit of a joke, right? Like it's like, oh, you got scammed.

So I feel like that framework provides so much levity as the reader goes in. It's like, okay, we're going to read about like this person's life. But obviously if she's framing her life as a scam, like we're probably going to have a good time.

And I feel like you really like match that energy with what's in the book. I definitely think the book has depth. I don't know if I would say it's heavy because I like, but it feels real.

Like it doesn't feel like you're bullshitting us. Like I'm like, okay, we're getting like a real look at Laci. And I feel like you are both funny and have depth to you.

So that shows up in the book for sure. How were you, I guess, why, why did you want to write a book? Did you want to write a book or did they come to you?

Because I know sometimes people, they come to you. sometimes they come, yes.

And then it kind of felt like a scam too. Because I was like, I'm not an authoress, like, but if y'all want me to be, I'll be one. I'll figure it out.

And I think a lot of life is figuring things out. And I think a lot of people run away from challenges because they feel like they're not prepared for them. When in fact, we're all just figuring it out.

Yeah.

Like when I was a kid, I thought my parents were God. I thought, I mean, they taught me how to eat and walk and talk. And I still love them.

And I still very much think that they are God. But I learned when I became an adult that they were human beings who were just trying to figure it out like everybody else. And so I want people to feel empowered to figure it out for themselves.

And if people aren't giving you what you want, scam to get what you want.

Okay. Will you define a scam for us? How do you think about what a scam is?

So it's two-folded. On one side, on the negative side, I think a scam is when, and it's very nebulous. It's when two people have an interaction and one person walks away feeling duped.

Okay.

And the reason I say it that way is because like, okay, let's think about like a sugar daddy or a sugar they them or a sugar, you know, baby woman, whatever, you know?

Yeah.

Where it's like somebody is paying the way for the other person, for their company or their looks or whatever. If both of those people know that they've entered that relationship and it's like, oh, I'm getting what I want and you're getting what you want, that's not a scam. But let's say you are a person of means and you marry or engage with someone and you really think that they're just loving you for you, that's a scam.

Because both people aren't in agreement.

Okay, but what if the person, the sugar parent, the sugar authority figure, what if they don't know that they're being duped? Is it still a scam?

That's what I'm saying. If they don't know, if they're not in on the joke of like, okay, I know I'm not the sexiest beast or the person that they want to be with, but I can provide a lifestyle, that's not a scam. But if you...

But what if they think the person... Like, what if you are not self-aware enough to know you're being scammed? It's still a scam, right?

yes. If you think that this baddie is with you and they're just with you because of who you are, that's a scam.

Okay. So it's not fully dependent on the self-awareness of the scammy or the scammed. I don't know that correct.

I think it is fully dependent on the scammy. Like, I have walked into scam situations where I'm like, this is definitely a scam, but I'm going to do it. You know, I've done pyramid scheme, acting, you know, performance classes that I'm not going to talk about.

I've done, you know, honestly, I could have been killed by the Craigslist killer in the beginning of my acting career because I just wanted to perform. So I was like, oh, this is back alley. That's where the opportunity is in the dark.

And I meet a man in a trench coat. Why not? You know, so it really depends on what two people walk away with.

OK, that's what I define a scam as. And I know it's nebulous. I know it's like vague.

But I also think that you can be a good scammer. Like you can find ways to scam in a system that is not created for you. And as a queer black woman, this system was not created for me.

So I had to find ways to be successful. You know, we would be cold switching, learning how to like, oh, give all the compliments. Like the beginning of my book is literally, I went missing when I was five, LOL.

And how I just hung out with people all day and tried to pretend I was like with them. I don't want to give too much away, but it's like at an early age, I realized how to mirror and how to perform in a way that would get me what I wanted, even if I didn't look like what people wanted me to.

Right. So I mean, and in the book we see, as we read, it's like we're all scammers maybe. And you have a thing where you're like, it's not all scamming is bad.

Right.

And I feel like, at least in my brain, like another way to think about scamming, if you are a person who doesn't want to feel like you're a scammer, even if you are, it's like it's performance. It's knowing what to perform in which situation. And a lot of the scams that are like, not like I'm stealing your money, but like the scam that's like, I'm going to be nice to the boss's wife so that I get a promotion, like that scam.

That scam is just like, how do I perform person who's interested in whatever Michelle has to say? Which clearly I'm not. I don't want to eat a bacon wrapped melon with you ma'am, but I'm going to pretend until you tell your partner that I am the greatest employee you've ever met, and I should definitely be the CEO next.

Yeah, and Traci, that's called mirroring. It's like people like to see themselves. And so when you do that, it makes them more comfortable with you faster.

Right, right, right. And in your definition would be a scam, because Michelle thinks that I love her. But really, Michelle, it's not about you.

Is there a line for you? How do we know the difference between a good scam and a bad? Like a good scam, not a successful scam, but like a morally acceptable scam versus like a morally unacceptable scam?

Don't push down.

Okay.

If people are in need and you're taking from them, if people are vulnerable and you're taking advantage of them, that is a bad scam.

Bad scam.

Now, if it's a corporation that's doing wage theft, then do your wage theft back.

Okay?

Right. I personally believe if I go to a self-checkout and I have to do my own work, then yeah, I'm not going to scan all the items because I work here now. these are my wages.

What do you mean?

That's a good, I've never done that scam. I'm too scared. I'm going to get caught.

Do you have, okay, do you have fear when you scam? Because I'm too scared of everything. I'm always scared I'm going to get in trouble.

And I feel like that prevents me from pulling off some of my best ideas.

yes, because if you have fear, you're not going to be able to do it. I always say walk into any scam and look at everything like it's the most ghetto shit you've ever seen in your life. Like the people who look at everything like it's beneath them, no one notices them.

But if you're looking around and you're hoping that people don't notice you, then you're sticking out like a target.

This is good. I'm in scam boot camp right now. I can't wait to fucking scam everybody after this interview.

Okay, in the book, one of the things that comes up so many times is that you are a people pleaser. Do you think being a people pleaser makes it easier or harder to scam? Easier.

To scam someone else. Easier?

But it also makes it easier for me to be scammed. And I talk about that as well. Like the times that I've been scammed because as I've been doing the television show Scam goddess, which there's only so much I can say about it, but it made a lot of things real for me in the true crime space because we really wanted to do it in a way that is earnest.

I feel like everyone these days is reading a headline or maybe scamming an article and then they're making judgments and they're, you know, you can feel smarter than someone or safer than someone and when you really meet people and get to know the environment they were in, the town that they were in, like the culture, it gives you a full breadth of how the scams happened versus just seeing a headline and thinking people are stupid. And one of the worst things that I think about true crime, and I call what I do true con because we're not talking about murders, is that everyone always thinks it could never happen to me and that's why it happens to you because you ignore all of the red flags coming at you because there's no possible way that this could happen to me. And so I really want to open that up with this book that yeah it's a scary thing to think that anything can happen to you but it's also freeing and it gives you the opportunity to open your eyes to things that are not sounding right you know even if you don't have a friend to talk to or you're too ashamed to talk to about someone but it's like okay Bruno Mars DMed me and said he needed $400 just say it out loud does that sound right yeah right it it to me it does I feel like Bruno really wants to be friends with me I believe it I would I do too I believe it Bruno if you need anything I'm of ales okay I'm here for you bank accounts always open I definitely have more money than Bruno Mars for sure you do because on the podcast the theme song also includes cons and grifters do you have different definitions of those things is scam the umbrella term and they're they're all under it or are they all their own different thing just like any other profession there's different types of scammers okay so you have like your love fraud people okay which I hate them the most yes, because everyone needs love, and I hate that you're being-

It's very bottom feeder.

Yeah, I hate that you're pretending to engage in someone's life, and then being like, oh my god, I have a hospital bill, can you send me $10,000? Hate it, hate it. You know, you have, you're embezzlers.

They're working in the corporate world, and then they see a little avenue where it's like, oh, I'm going to say we needed $100,000 for stamps. We didn't. I put that in my pocket.

That's like Sandy Jenkins in Texas at the Fruitcake Factory. And then you have your Ponzi Schemers. So they're selling leggings to mom.

Moldy leggings, moldy, nasty, ugly to start with leggings.

But they're also doing gift circles, and it's just feeding in, honestly, Bitcoin, Ponzi Scheme. So the more the people, and I hate those kinds of scams, because I feel like the person who is like the little guy gets in last once it's spread out. And now you're just someone who's feeding into the Ponzi, and you're not even going to be at the top of the pyramid, so you're not going to make any money.

Yeah, you're just recouping losses for everyone else. And then you have people who are like fraudsters in different ways where it's like a lying grift. these are actually my favorite people.

I love someone with a story on the street like, Oh, my baby is locked in the car, and my grandma is at the hospital, and I need $45. My favorite. And I have played into those.

I gave a woman money in college because she said that her mother was in the hospital and she couldn't pick her daughter up from daycare. And for some reason in my spirit, I was like, I'm a broke college student, but let me go to the ATM and give this woman at least like $40. That's all I had.

And I later found out in the campus blotter that if you said no to her, she had a brick in her purse and she would hit you over the head.

Oh my God. So you were scammed, you were scammed, but like in a good way, even if it was a bad scam, like you, you, you played in. It was the right one.

Yeah.

I think people who are dancing on the subway, cause I once heard them arguing in New York about missing a train and they were like, I can't believe we missed that train son. They're like, that was like $600 son, like what, what, what you, what you doing? And I was like, y'all making $600 a train ride?

But that's not a scam, that's work.

They're not, they're not scamming.

They're, you know what you get when you put money into that hat and they're saying, I'm going to dance.

But all scamming is work.

Okay, fair. But I feel like that one does it, there's no imbalance of expectation and delivery.

True.

Like you're paying for what you see, what you see is what you get. If you give them $10 for dancing over your head in the subway, it's honest work, I would say. honest as any work is, I guess.

I hate governmental scams.

Sure.

Why can Uncle Sam shake me down for random amounts of money that I have to guess? And what's being done with it to help my community? Nothing.

What about the racial scam artist? We've got a racial dolezal. We also have the Grifter, Sean King.

I know that episode. He is now a Muslim, so there's probably going to be another episode coming out. But yeah.

Those are fun. Those are fun ones. Where the person is the scam.

They're fun, but they're also not because they're taking advantage of real activism. yes, that. I mean, I understand.

It's weird with Sean because it's kind of good and kind of bad.

It's funny. It's funny, but it's also so fucked up. I feel like it's like we need to laugh at it because it's actually extremely depressing, right?

He's also aggregating a lot of information and that white people would never look at.

That's true.

And so it's like twofold for me. My thing is, is that Sean is always trying to sell like hoodies and t-shirts and all these types of things that he never actually gives people. He raised money to climb seven mountains, never climbed a single one.

He had a fake church and they used to meet every Sunday. And then he was like, what if we did church once a month? Because he started getting famous in the activism space.

He's just a serial entrepreneur. That's what I call him. Like when one grift goes awry, or too many people get abreast of it, and he has me blocked on everything.

I never tagged him, but he has me blocked on everything.

He heard about y'all.

But like they pivot. Like Donald Trump is a scammer who pivots. He had a university, he was doing real estate, he was trying to sell burial plots on his property.

Like, he's, you know, they're always pivoting. Those are kind of my favorite scammers, even though they're bad, because they're career criminals. It's their life.

That's what I like too. And there's never a dull moment. Like, you're never done with Sean King, right?

Like it's like, okay, he's, we haven't heard from him in two months.

He's cooking up something.

Can't wait to see what's next. Like, I'm ready. yes, I personally really like those scams, even though, yes, obviously they're bad, but like they're, they're my favorite, I think most entertaining ones.

I think the what, I think you're right. The love scams are the hardest ones. They're just like, you just feel sad.

It's like, this is so, so mean.

But recently I covered a woman who might be my favorite scammer. I wish I could remember her name right now, but not because of how like newsworthy it was, but because what she did was so altruistic. She was an immigrant.

She got on immigrant Facebooks and they realized that they could get like legal people's Ubers and for a small fee, they would drive Uber for these people in their name using their social security and get paid back. She brought everybody into this scam. She started making up fake social security numbers because Uber wasn't checking, especially during the pandemic, because Uber Eats was like super high.

She got the whole hood paid.

We love this.

I'm like, don't send that lady to jail.

Like, send her to the White House. She's got a plan.

An innovator.

She's ready. She can be the secretary of labor. We need her.

Get these people jobs.

And she was just taking a commission. She wasn't even robbing these people who were working for her. Like, she was giving people work who over here couldn't get work because they didn't have social security numbers.

So I don't think that every scam is bad. There's just different industries.

Right, right, right. And in your book, you would tell the story about a Hollywood experience that you had, which is another kind of scammer that I am really fascinated by, which is the person who pretends to, who outkicks their fake resume. Right?

It's like everybody sort of indulges a little bit here and there on their resume. Like, yes, I have experience as a whatever. But it's the person who's like, like an Elizabeth Finch.

Not only am I a TV writer, but I am also all these other things and qualified to do X, Y, and Z. The person who's like, yes, I am a racehorse jockey because I once did a pony ride at seven. Like, and you have a person like that in your book on a movie that you worked on, which is so iconic.

It's such an iconic kind of scam. It's just like, it's like, what's, what's that fucking girl that everybody, that white girl everybody was obsessed with? I can never remember her name.

Caroline Calloway.

yes, yes. It's the Caroline Calloway kind of scam.

Yeah, we got invites on Twitter. It ended up in news articles. So yeah, you and her, you and me, her and Jamila Jamil.

Yeah.

Okay, I got to go back and read that. But I do feel like that kind of scam is a really entertaining one because it's just like, you did what? You thought you could get away with what?

And I love the audacity. And that's what scammers have. And that's what I want people to take from this book.

I'm not saying go out and do crime, but take a little confidence from scammers. Like a lot of us have imposter syndrome and think that we can't do what we're doing or have these little secret doubts in our head. But like live a little bit more like a scammer.

They're making it up as they go. Everybody is. And so that's what I want people to take from this book and some little scam kit tools that you can use on your own.

Yeah. I mean, you mentioned being creative is one of your biggest scams. Why do you feel that way?

Because I made everything up out of thin air and now I make money on it.

Yeah.

And that feels weird. Like if I was an electrician, like electrician poles existed before I was born. You know, if I was a plumber, they had toilets before I was born that needed to be plunged or drain owed.

But I was just like, I'm going to make a career out of, I don't know, nothing. I'm going to do make-em-ups for a living. And so that's kind of a scam.

I mean, Hollywood, as you mentioned in the book, is such a big scam. The whole thing is, it's all, it's actually like all of the best kinds of scams together in one industry. Like you have the I light on my resume scam person is always in Hollywood.

You definitely have the continuing different kinds of scam person is a huge figure in Hollywood. You have the make-em-up-as-you-go scam is huge in Hollywood. You have all the like institutional powers, so fucked up scams in Hollywood.

What else?

It is an amalgamation of every single scam. You also have the pay to play scam in Hollywood.

Of course, the pay to play scam.

Headshots, classes, acting coaches. Oh, I even talk about in the book, there's a whole part about every Hollywood scam I participated in.

Yeah, in the real life.

And I hope that if you're an actor, if you want to be an actor, at least you should pick up this book just to read that chapter, because I am going to tell you the whole truth. And another thing that I feel like happens in memoirs or in books is that people try to clean up certain aspects. And I won't lie, I did the same, but I did it for my family.

I'm not going to snitch on my family. Like, I'm sorry, they're all alive and I can't go to the reunion and get, you know, jumped.

Right, right, right, right, right. And it's maybe not your story to tell.

I mean, it is because I lived it, but it's not because they're alive. Right, right, right, right. And so I'm going to be respectful, I'm black.

But a lot of actors, I feel like, or even performers or people who write books, they tell you they have an answer for something. There is no place in this book where I say I have any answers. I have lessons, I have advice that I don't take all the time.

That's very good. And I'm not going to pretend that it's going to fix you. But I think it's something where you can, it's almost like horoscopes.

You know, take what you want, leave what you don't. And that's what I wanted to do instead of be like, oh, this is the way, this is the cure, this is how you get fixed. Like, no, that doesn't exist.

Right. Okay, wait, we're going to take a quick break and we'll be right back.

All right. We're back. I want to talk a little bit about the cover and the title.

Did you always know you wanted to call the book Scam goddess? Was that always the plan? yes.

Then what about the cover? Were you involved at all in it? We recently did an episode of this show, a bonus episode, where we talked about book covers, and I showed your cover and a few other covers to a book cover expert, and she was like, that is a great cover.

She was instantly loved it, which I agree. I mean, it is a great cover. It's so catchy.

I personally am a big fan of red and pink together, which we get on this cover. One of my favorite color combos. But tell me about the cover process.

Were you involved? Did they just send it over?

I was heavily involved, but I will have to say that Shannonette Hachette, she came up with the red and pink, and it was the first pitch that she had. I sent several pitches over about the colors, and they were wrong. Like, she was right.

The one thing we fought about was having my face on the cover because it's a memoir.

Yeah.

And my biggest thing with that is that, statistically, people don't buy books with black people's faces on them. Yeah.

We talked about this on that episode.

Yeah. So I was like, and they were like, but it's your book, and it's your fans, and it's this. And I was like, no, I'm not putting my black ass face on the book.

And so we settled on my eye in black and white.

I love it. I was like, okay, can we get 50% of the face? You get about 20%.

What about 10%? Okay, 10%. You get an eye.

I was like, you get an eyeball. And then at the end, there's the author photo, and it's like, I'm black. Gotcha, bitch.

This is my next scam. Scam. You read a Black Lady book, and you didn't even know.

You didn't even, and you liked it, admit it. yes. What about, what was the hardest part of writing this book for you?

I think the hardest part actually was reading the audiobook.

Why? Say more.

I had been away from the book for like maybe a year. While, you know, we're doing editing and things that were a little more nuanced and nitpicky.

Right.

But then I had to sit down for three, seven hour sessions and read the audiobook. And I remember Jerry, this lovely man, I had used the tissue to just wipe my nose, but it was the last one. And he goes, oh no, no, no, I have to go grab you some more tissues.

And I was like, I don't need no more tissues. Like I'm not going to cry. Like, like I'm good.

He was like, no, no, no, let me go get you the tissues. So he goes and gets the tissues. And I didn't cry during that session.

Actually at points I laughed and I was like, ooh, I'm funny.

But then there is a certain chapter in the book where I cried and I had to relive these parts of my life. And I would say that I am a different person from when I wrote this book. Some of it the same, some of it worse.

But I think that was the hardest part, was like having to take a look. Like I'm very introspective, too introspective. So I don't have a difficult time being critical of myself.

It was just that like the things that I've lived through that I kind of brush off my shoulder, like having to read them and be like, oh, you should have been a little more traumatized.

Right, right, right, right, right, right. That's so interesting. I mean, you read the audiobook so well.

It's such an engaging listen. Like I remember like cooking dinner and listening and like laughing and being so like, and going back and being like, wait, what did you say? I missed it.

Like, let me go back and hear this. And just like really, really liking it. So for people at home, if you're not sure if you want to do the print or the audio, you can do both, but I vouch for the audio.

Because sometimes I don't vouch for the audio. sometimes it's not very good.

I love audiobook reviews before I did my audiobook. Because a lot of times when they're done by actors, they're like too actory and too dry-hearted. And I also took vocal lessons before, because I have vocal fry.

Like this is how. So it was like speak from the front of the mouth, make things calm, make them, but like also emote when necessary. It doesn't sound like what I'm doing right now.

But like I took vocal lessons and read a lot of nasty reviews about other audiobooks and was like, okay, I won't do those things. Yeah.

That'll be your next book. What not to do when recording an audiobook. I want to talk a little bit about the writing process.

How did you make time to write? You're such a busy person. How often were you writing?

Like how many hours a day do you listen to music? Do you watch TV? Are there snacks and beverages?

Are there rituals? Like how does the magic happen?

So again, I'm not a scammer and a lot of people lie about this. So I'm going to be honest. I was shooting iCarly Lopez vs Lopez.

I was recording for Little Demon and then I was flying back and forth to Atlanta to shoot The Outlaws on Netflix. I was also recording the podcast. So I didn't have the bandwidth to just sit down and type.

Marina Shiffrin was my ghostwriter. And what we did was is each week for four hours, I would get on the phone with her and I wrote the whole outline so we knew where we were going.

Got it.

She would ask me questions from the outline and I would tell her stories and she would dictate them. Then she would send me the chapter. I would edit it and so I did write my book but I dictated my book.

And I think a lot of people lie about this and I don't know why because I don't think that it's insincere if your book is dictated. It's just like help.

Yeah. I think some people lie about it. I think that's more old school though.

Nowadays, many people that I've talked to who have used a ghostwriter, they talk about it pretty openly. I think also because I think what I've discovered is a lot of people who use ghostwriters are from other parts of the entertainment industry where collaboration is really celebrated. And in writing and in books, even though it is a really collaborative art form, when you get to the team at your publisher and your marketing and your editor and all of this, we think of it as being like a single solitary thing.

And so there's this weird like shame around using someone else, but really it is how everything is made. There's no industry, there's no creative industry where it's just one person does everything. And I feel like, you know, I feel like actors or like TV people or even musicians, whatever, they understand.

It's like, I'm a great singer. I cannot play the tambourine. So why would I not just bring in a tambourine player, right?

Like I am a great speaker. I have a great story to tell. Why wouldn't I just bring in a person whose job is to actually put the structure to the book or like to actually get it on the page?

And I think a lot of creatives like yourself do use ghostwriters because it makes the most sense of like, these are my skill sets. And then there's another person who can literally do this job. Why wouldn't I use it?

But a lot of people talk about ghostwriters.

I will say in my book, there's a phrase that comes up a lot, a few times. And it's the only thing I did not dictate. And it's top of the pops.

That is so Marina, I don't even know what that means.

I don't even remember hearing that.

I don't even know what it means. I remember hearing it because I was doing the audio book and I was like, I say that I said everything else, but I say that in the physical book, but it's not in the audio book. It's in the audio book.

Cause I read it.

And I was like, but you know, some people's audio books are like not their book. Like leslie jones, her book is like 200 pages, but her audio book is like 15 hours because she just like goes off the cuff.

Yeah, they wouldn't let me. They made me stick pretty heavily to script. But I will say that I fell in love with my ghost writer, Marina Schiffern, so much that to finish the book, to bring it home, I flew to Portland and like was with her.

And that's how we finished the book and hugged and cried. And we still talk like she's fantastic. So I love that.

You mentioned there are some things that are not in the book, that you're glad are not in the book, like around your family. Are there any things that are not in the book that you wish could have been?

Okay, this one's kind of like dark. That's why it's probably not in the book. And maybe I'm glad it's not.

We love dark around here.

sometimes you get what you pray for and it doesn't look like what you thought it would. And also, I think I would have wanted to say that sometimes achievement can be a scam. Like, I think we all have to start looking at achievement and happiness in different ways.

If you wake up with breath in your body and you're active and your plants are healthy and like anything can be a moment to celebrate. And I wish that I had known that and I... That's my scam is that I still don't know that.

I'm still working way too hard. And some days I think about for what?

Like, yeah, yeah, do you? I mean, so you people, a lot of people know you from iCarly. And then there's also a lot of people who know you from Scam goddess and like from talking about Sean King.

That was my entry point to your work. But I'm wondering if you've noticed like a difference in the way that people speak to you or when they meet you, if they're like apprehensive because they're like, is she scamming me? Or if they feel like if it's like a different energy you get from people who know you from different parts of your work life, because you've got so many things going on.

It's actually really positive. I've had a lot of people come up to me and say, I didn't get scammed because I heard this episode, or I told my mom about these Facebook links not to click on, and so she didn't get scammed. Or when I get emails like that, it really warms my heart that like, yeah, we're making jokes.

Yeah, we're making fun of scammers, never people who are exploited by them. I'm very careful about that. And also careful about judging people who have been scammed, and doing this television show, and meeting people who are exploited and scammed, and scammers completely changed my DNA about all of this, like learning the full picture, not just like the articles that, you know, we giggle at.

honestly, it kind of broke me. Why? Because it's way more insidious than what you see on paper.

Like these people didn't just get, you know, approached on the street and were like, hey, do you want to give me $50,000? Like, it's like years of building a relationship, feeling like, like imagine your best friend, like completely ripping you off and doing you dirty, like after years of knowing them, it's a lot of loss and a lot of pain. But at the same time, we had a lot of fun making fun of the scammers.

So it's still like, it's just kind of a roller coaster. Like sometimes you're laughing and then sometimes you're like, oh shit, now we're crying. So having people come up to me from the podcast has been really positive.

The emails have been really positive of just like people telling me that they got a weird email or someone tried to scam them or they got very close to a scam and then they remembered something I said and then they didn't fall for it. So protecting people, that has been the biggest gift.

Is there any word that you can never spell correctly on the first try?

necessity.

Ooh, good one. That's a hard one. necessary is also truly hard for me.

Yeah. Do you know what comes next for you now that the book is done?

Actually, in three days, I'm going to Ireland to shoot a television show for Fox. So that's all I can say.

Great. We love it. For people who love Scam goddess, the book, what are some other books that maybe you would recommend to them that are maybe in conversation with your work?

I honestly don't know.

I have one which just popped into my head thinking about what you were just saying about the building of the relationship. There's this new book that came out that's called There Is No Ethan, and it's a catfish story of three women who are catfished by the same guy, Ethan, and the book really builds.

Wasn't that off TikTok?

It might have been. I don't know. She's like a psychologist.

It's a pretty crazy story. The Ethan person in the story was so manipulative. It was actually like listening to it.

I was like, am I being gaslit right now? Like, I know Ethan is not who Ethan says he is. And even I am like, what the fuck?

Like, stop being mean to us. So I feel like it's a good pairing because it's like, it really, because it's written by the woman, one of the women who was in the relationship with him. So you really do get the sense of like how painful and like how much grief also goes along with the uncovering of these stories.

Okay, last question for you. If you could have one person dead or alive, read this book, who would you want it to be?

Bernie Madoff.

Oh, king of the scams.

Like literally, like lifetime serial scammer. And I wish I could have dinner with him and just know how he kept it up for so long. I think he's so fun.

People don't even know how goofy he was. Like one time the FCC was coming to like check his books, and they called ahead, like someone called ahead and gave him a tip. So they cooked the books literally, and they had to print them out.

And so they printed them out, and then obviously they're hot and the FCC is coming. So they're going to know if the book is hot, that like they just printed it. So they put them in the freezer, and then they took them out of the freezer, and they threw them around the office, like a football to make them look old.

yes, he was doing the goofiest stuff. I just, I love him.

There's a new Bernie Madoff book that just came out this year, like a biography of him, and the guy who wrote it, I believe, like interviewed him in prison.

No.

Yeah, it's called like Bernie Madoff, A Life or something like that. But the guy who wrote it has like some of the last interviews he ever did or something.

Okay, that's my next read.

Okay, it just came out. I want to say it's from Simon and Schuster anyways. Okay, that's a brilliant answer.

It's on my list to read that book too, so we can talk about it once we both do. yes. Everybody at home, you can get your copy of Scam goddess.

I don't know why I'm holding it up like they're going to see it, but it's here. You can get your copy of Scam goddess now, wherever you get your books, physical, audio, whatever that is for you, ebook, it all exists. And Laci, thank you so much for being here.

Traci, thank you so much for having me.

And everyone else, we will see you in The Stacks.

yes.

All right, y'all, that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening, and thank you again to Laci Mosley for being my guest. I'd also like to say thank you to Julia Wilson and Brooklyn Nelson for helping to make this conversation possible.

Don't forget, The Stacks Book Club pick for September is Jazz by Toni Morrison, and we will be discussing the book on wednesday, September 25th with Eve Dunbar. If you love the show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/thestacks and join The Stacks Pack. You can check out my sub stack at tracythomas.substack.com.

Make sure you're subscribed to The Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts. If you're listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, be sure to leave us a rating and a review. For more from The Stacks, follow us on social media, at The Stacks Pod on Instagram threads and TikTok, and at The Stacks Pod underscore on Twitter, and you can check out our website, thestackspodcast.com.

This episode of The Stacks was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Megan Caballero. Our graphic designer is Robin McCright, and our theme music is from tegirages. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

]]>Ep. 337 We Love an Ethical Scam with Laci MosleyEp. 336 Blackness is the Ingredient with Danzy SennaStacks AssistantWed, 11 Sep 2024 07:00:00 +0000https://www.thestackspodcast.com/2024/09/11/ep-336-danzy-senna65d2b7a49de6215855aa3aaa:66084694f1e135566828a41a:66de6bc510d7a8349b5af84a

Danzy Senna joins The Stacks to discuss her latest novel, Colored Television, a satirical take on one novelist's attempt to leave books behind and strike it rich in Hollywood. Today, Danzy explains why she uses the word "mulatto" in her work, how humor is integral to the mixed experience, and why all her characters make such bad decisions.

Don't forget, The Stacks Book Club pick for September is Jazz by Toni Morrison. We will discuss the book on September 25th with Eve Dunbar.

LISTEN NOW

Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Google Podcasts | Overcast | Stitcher | Transcript

  

Everything we talk about on today’s episode can be found below in the show notes and on Bookshop.org and Amazon.

To support The Stacks and find out more from this week’s sponsors, click here.

Connect with Danzy: Facebook | Website
Connect with The Stacks: Instagram | Twitter | Shop | Patreon | Goodreads | Substack | Subscribe

To contribute to The Stacks, join The Stacks Pack, and get exclusive perks, check out our Patreon page. If you prefer to support the show with a one time contribution go to paypal.me/thestackspod.

The Stacks participates in affiliate programs. We receive a small commission when products are purchased through links on this website.

TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host Traci Thomas, and I could not be more thrilled today to welcome one of my absolute favorite authors to the podcast. We are joined by acclaimed author Danzy Senna, who is here to discuss her newest novel, Colored Television.

This satirical story follows Jane, a mixed race writer, grappling with her identity as a novelist and a professor, but also trying to sell out to break into the entertainment industry. The book is hilarious. It is so sharp with critique of race class, the entangled world of Hollywood, and so much more.

Today, Danzy and I talk about this fantastic novel, The Word Mulatto, and I even get to ask her a few questions about her husband, Percival Everett. This is one you definitely do not want to miss. Don't forget, our book club pick for September is Jazz by Toni Morrison, and we will be discussing that book on Wednesday, September 25th with our guest, Eve Dunbar.

Everything we talk about on each episode of The Stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. If you like what you hear today, if you love this podcast, if you want to support the work that I do, if you want some inside access to the show, join The Stacks Pack. You can do that by going to patreon.com/thestacks.

It is just $5 a month. You get a whole bunch of perks like being part of our bookish community over on Discord. You get to come to our monthly virtual book club meetups.

You get to participate in our mega reading challenge and so much more. You also get to know that by joining, you're making it possible for me to make the show every week. So if that sounds like something you'd be into, head over to patreon.com/thestacks and join The Stacks Pack.

And here's a special shout out for some of our newest members of The Stacks Pack, Julie Sternberg, Deborah Gordon, Tessa, Samantha Brown, Simone Colley and Barbara Pullman. Thank you all so much. And for those of you who want to support the work of the show, who love the show, who want to know what I think about books, movies, TV, food, whatever, but you're not necessarily super excited about going to a virtual book club meetup, you should check out my newsletter.

It is at tracytomis.substack.com. I talk about all sorts of stuff. And that also supports the work of the show.

So thank you to everyone for making The Stacks possible. Now it is time for my conversation with Danzy Senna.

All right, everybody, I'm so excited. This is, I feel like, years in the making. I am joined today by one of my absolute favorite authors, the author of my favorite novel so far this year, Colored Television.

It is the wonderful, fabulous, amazing, incredible, hilarious Danzy Senna. Welcome to The Stacks.

Thank you so much. This is years in the making.

I know, I'm so excited.

I feel we've been waiting for this moment.

Yeah, I've been waiting for you, honestly, because new people came out before I had the show and I loved it. When I started the show, I was like, well, one day, Danzy will give me another book and we'll get to talk. I'm glad I waited because it was worth the wait and it's so good.

For people who have not been paying attention to me screaming about this novel, can you tell folks in 30 seconds or so what Colored Television is about?

The Hollywood Elevator pitch is about a writer, a mixed-race mulatto writer who fails in novel writing and decides to try her hands at Hollywood making the greatest biracial comedy of all times, and things don't go as planned. No.

Jane is our protagonist. I want to start with, well, since you said biracial and I'm sure you're going to get this question a million times on your press tour. Jane loves the word mulatto.

A lot of people don't love it. Why do you love to use it? Why does Jane love it?

because it's not just Jane who loves it, you use it in other stuff.

I did a word count on how many times I used mulatto in this book, and it was like 90 times. It was almost 100 times. It's a word I have been using since high school, and my siblings and my friends who were also biracial heritage, all used it because we loved how specific it is to being black and white and American, but also because it's such a vintage racist word.

It's like old-fashioned racist word that nobody calls you that in the playground. Like there's not a great risk in using it, that it's going to be used against you. It's comedy to me that they used to think we were like mules and that we couldn't procreate, which clearly we can, right?

We can, we can, we can do it.

And have.

Are you worried though, that like by using it, people will think that they can break, like what if you usher in the revival of Mulatto as a racial slur, like an everyday slur, like the N word?

I mean, wouldn't that be kind of hilarious?

Okay, I would love it. I am not a pearl clutcher, as you know. As you know, I think it's funny.

I was trying to bring back the word colored to describe all people of color, because I hate saying BIPOC or like, I'm just like, it's too much. It's white and colored. It's us versus them.

You're either in or you're out. But a lot of people don't like that I feel that way.

I don't understand that. I love the word colored. I love the word mulatto.

The thing is that race is not science. Biracial sounds like we still believe in this chemistry lab. Race is history, poetry, economic violence, political violence.

It's not a scientific thing. You use these ridiculous words and own the fact that we're talking about history here.

Yeah. I also personally, I mean, I just love quadroon. That's just a great word, period.

The best. That's the best. Like come on, those are unbelievably good words.

I know and it's the only place where we get to be specifically described.

Yeah. I think that's okay. So I do want to talk about that because you and I are both black and white mulatto American mixes, right?

And I feel like, you know, I personally use mixed over biracial, even though my Instagram handle is bitracial, but that's more of wordplay and not-

That's good.

And not like, it's good. It's perfect. I personally use mixed race, but I do feel like there's something to being able to say, I am this specific kind of mixed person, right?

Like there's Blasian, right? Like in black and Asian people, like they have Blasian and they're able to like lean into that. And there's other sub genres of black and Asian that have their own titles.

But I do feel like sometimes when people are like, oh, well, what are you mixed with? And then I'm like, black American and white. Well, I'm, I'm actually Julato.

Julato, yes.

Yeah, that's even more specific. But I just feel like I like having a word for us.

Well, it's, it's kind of, the fact is that we've been denied even being named or acknowledged historically. So I think there's some power in like acting as if we're a race, even though we don't fully subscribe to be distinctive from blackness. We're like a subgroup of blackness, but to actually be able to describe ourselves is something that has not been afforded to black, white, mixed people in America.

Like it's actually built into our history that we were completely erased from the story. So, so I think that part of the appeal of it along with the comedy. And I also like, I went in the 90s, there were these really big revival of like people of mixed race were going to find their own group and be empowered.

And there was this crazy moment. And I went to like a couple of conferences where I was asked to speak that were like multi-racial Americans conferences. And I was like, these people mean nothing to me.

Like, I don't have anything in common with anyone here, except for those few people who are mulatto. Like, I don't relate to these people's history. I don't have a problem with them.

But if you're half Asian and half white, like, we aren't really talking about the same thing because history matters. And God bless, like, that's great. But I don't think we're in the same conversation now.

Well, right. And I think, like, to your point, it also, it really strips the context of people's lives, right? It's like, I've been in conversations with people who have been like, oh, well, I'm Puerto Rican and whatever.

And I'm like, OK, like, yes, we are both mixed. But like, aside from that, the context of the mixing and the place from which you come, like, it becomes, it almost becomes meaningless, right?

Like, being lumped together is just like, OK, well, it also becomes this odious thing I called multiculturalism, where it's like everything's neutralized and turned into sort of like a food fair. And like, yes, we're going to have this like fusion mix of Korean and Panamanian food now. And it's like our history is so specifically loaded and so specifically brought.

And blackness is the ingredient there that I think, you know, you can't talk about mixed as being sort of inclusive of all these different mixtures and not say, well, blackness is something separate when you're talking about the history of this country. And it does have a-

Right, being black in America means something different. Totally. Oh my gosh, I agree so much

OK, so you and I are in agreement about mulatto, but you are a national book club pick. You're the Good Morning America book club pick. And that means you're going to have an audience that maybe hasn't thought about mulattoes and mixed race people in this way, who maybe it's outside of someone who would have come to your book because that's what these book clubs do.

They platform you in a certain way. Are you at all nervous or excited or I don't know? You tell me, how are you feeling about knowing that on Good Morning America, you're going to have to talk about mulatto and people are going to have feelings about that?

I mean, I'm a fairly irresponsible person. That's why I became a novelist and I'm not Kamala Harris. Right.

I don't take responsibility for the impact of the word mulatto spread far and wide. I think the stakes are pretty low about that word. If I was doing something that I felt was actually harmful, but I feel excited actually about it because I think, I've embedded all of these things I've been thinking about for decades and decades into a book that apparently is highly enjoyable to read for people who maybe haven't thought about these subjects.

So it feels like actually amazing that these ideas will be seeping into the larger mainstream for the first time in my life, in a much bigger way. I think the comedy and the fact that there's a marriage, and there's parenting and class and money, anxiety and aspirational fantasies in it, there's all these areas of connection that people hopefully will find. Then the race stuff is like, I think you hope that it just slightly changes the cellular makeup of people's thinking around this, and subtly without the feeling that is changing it, but it does.

I love that so much. As I said, you're one of my favorite writers. I love your work.

I am mulatto. We've talked about this. When I read this book, I read this book back...

Yes, I need a pin. I read this book back in January, and I was like, oh, I love this book. I love this book.

This book is all the things that I think about. I live in LA. I have so many friends who are in Hollywood.

I'm mixed. I have kids. I create things.

It feels so spot on to who I am, but since I read it and loved it, I've talked about it, and people are starting to read it. A lot of people who I'm like, you have no frame of reference for any of this book, are loving this book. I thought this was going to be my small little secret.

Kind of like how I felt about new people. Oh, Jonestown, which is one of my obsessions. I was like, oh, new people.

It's just something that me and my mixed friends could talk about. But you have really tapped into something broader here, I think, than maybe I was giving you credit for it, because I think that you're my secret, even though everyone knows about you, but I'm like, Danzy's mine. So I guess the question is, how are you thinking about audience?

How do you know how far you can push it and still make it feel authentic to someone like me who feels very close to the subject matter, but also feel accessible to someone from Wisconsin, who's never been to LA, who's not a writer, who's not a creative, who's all white, or all Chinese, or whatever. How are you thinking in those terms?

You know, I think I don't think about that when I'm writing. I think about you, Traci. I think about my closest insider audience.

I mean, I've been saying you, but like an audience member or a reader like you, who's so close to the joke that I'm telling, that they're going to get it on about six different levels. And I'm thinking about myself, that's the first reader. But the thing that it reveals to me is just that we all have emerged out of the same culture in some ways.

I mean, we are all Americans, and we are all products of capitalism and popular culture. And so the sort of hyper specificity, as they call it, of the mulatto experience is something that you don't have to relate to entirely to be enjoying this book. But I would also say that when I wrote Caucasia, my first novel, I was doing this thing of writing about the aspect of my identity that is the thing that is making me feel the most like a freak my whole life, the most like an outsider and an outlier.

And when I went on the tour for that book, what I realized was literature has this power that the thing that makes you feel most alone is the thing people are going to find a space of recognition in because everyone feels shame, everyone actually feels that they're passing, everyone feels a disconnect between their physical self and their invisible self. So there's levels of metaphorical truth and universality that I think is what comes out of writing from the hyperspecific actually. You don't write to the generic, you write to the specific and then hope people will find that place in themself.

That is whatever that character is.

Yeah. Well, I know myself and some of my closest Mulatto friends. We love it.

We love this book. We talk about it a lot. It has come up more times.

I mean, I've pressed copies. I've told your team at Riverhead, I'm like, send me another one. I have another Mulatto who needs it.

I'm just pimping out copies of the book. It's like charity. I'll be really honest with you.

I feel like most representation of black, white, mixed characters, both in film and in TV and in books, is not, it never hits the funny to me. You write about this in the book. There's this character, we haven't even gotten to this part of the book, but when Jane goes to, Jane's our lead, when she goes to leave academia novelist world, she gets her foot into the door of Hollywood, and she's trying to pitch this or come up with this great mulatto TV show, and the guy that she's working with who's Hollywood exec type, keeps talking about how being mulatto or being, he doesn't say mulatto, being mixed or biracial, is like the tragedy of it all and all of that part of it.

But I feel like everyone misunderstands that I feel like being mixed is like the greatest joke ever told, and that we have so much fun and are so funny and stupid and can laugh at everything and everybody because of who we are. And I feel like you tap into that better than anyone else. I don't even know where the question was starting, but there's a question there.

The joke of being mulatto, the hilarity of it.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I think my siblings, I grew up in a household with, I'm the middle child of three, we were all like really close in age. And my dad is very funny.

He's got a very kind of gallows humor about race. My mother is very funny. And the level of humor around race was, I would say the prevalent mood in our conversations.

It was not about am I this or am I that? But it was like steeped in irony, which I locate in the black tradition. And it's a black humor and that I found the slice of that that is specifically mulatto humor.

And I think it's really interesting. Humor is a way of carving out an identity and saying who gets this joke? Who really gets this joke?

Those are my people. And we did that constantly as siblings and amongst our other friends who were mixed. We tried to find those spots of laughter because those were the ways that we survived the other sides of it because I don't discount the fact that, and I'm older than you, like this wasn't like a purely hilarious experience.

Sure.

Right. Like there was difficulty in my childhood that I could locate around that experience being mixed. And that is the being a black girl who looked white or who was presenting to others as white.

And so, you know, I think the best humor for me has a level of sadness or anger or alienation or darkness to it. It's not purely just like Jerry Seinfeld, you know?

Right. It's not slapstick. It's more satire.

Yeah. We're going toward Pryor, not Seinfeld.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Exactly. Exactly. No, I think that's right.

Like I do think there are aspects of being mixed that are challenging and can be really painful and can be really difficult. But I think that in artistic exploration, that is often all we get. I feel like it always feels so empty because I'm like, that doesn't represent how my life has been.

It's been a lot of like, oh yes, I like, where do I go and how do I fit in? I don't quite feel right and it's not till you find whatever, your people, but also it's been a lot of jokes about Tiger Woods. A lot of conversations about, I remember I had to do stand-up comedy in college.

It was the worst experience of my life. I made myself sick. I had diarrhea the whole day because I was so nervous, TMI.

But my big joke was about being black and Jewish and arriving late, but always having bagels or something stupid like that. But that is sort of always the joke, right? And that there's always a way to at least find the joke, even in or after the part that feels really shitty.

And I think to tie this into another part of your book that I think is so specific and so good is like the LA of it all.

Yeah.

LA is weirdly the mulatto city, even though it's not. But like the energy, right? Like LA is weird.

And yes, it is. It's chaos. It's chaotic in the way that we are.

Right.

Yeah.

And we're both raising kids here. So we're getting to see us sort of from a different generational perspective. And, you know, for my kids, it's like their racial experience is deeply hilarious and ironic constantly.

Right. Constantly.

And like, I mean, I could go on and on about the level of comedy of their experience in the LAPD, LAPD, LA public schools, not the PD. And I feel like they were born ironic and they were born sarcastic about race. And like that feels very much about being raised in LA to me, where-

And not who their parents are. I feel like between you and Percival, I think you guys might have had a hand at them finding the irony in every situation.

You're probably right.

because my kids are only four and a half, so who knows? But like, I have a sense they're not nearly as funny as your kids.

I'm worried about it. Like, it's a problem. I need them to at least pretend they're taking it seriously during the DEI week at their school because things can go terribly wrong with them in terms of this.

That's so funny. How much about Hollywood? Why was that interesting for you?

because in addition to this being a mulatto novel, it's also a Hollywood novel, right? In the same way that there's New York City novels. This feels like an extremely Hollywood book.

So why did you want to go there?

Having been a novelist for 18 years in Los Angeles, have had a flirting with Hollywood relationship but never consummating the act, but trying at times and failing. I thought it was funny. Every time I would go and try to make something in Hollywood, I was like, I'm going to go sell out now, and then it wouldn't go anywhere.

I was like, damn, I'm not very good at selling out. I think what I think is funny is just for me, a lot of the humor and the origins of the humor in this book in particular are like bleeding thoughts I would have that I would think, that's such an absurd thought that that would be funny if like a writ large in a character. One of those thoughts is like, nobody even reads novels anymore.

Why the beep am I doing this?

You can swear here, don't worry.

Why the fuck am I doing this? Why is everyone else getting to cash in on their identity, and I'm sitting here slaving for years on a novel, but apparently nobody cares about this form anymore. So it was all like these ramps I would go on, that became the source of this joke.

It was also like right after the summer of George Floyd, that sort of DEI performative mania that took over some of these creative industries, and it was like, we're gonna make content about race suddenly. We're really interested in this, and we all knew it was bleeding. We all knew that white people were gonna get tired of us, they were gonna stop feeling guilty, and so there was a rush on that.

I'm gonna be the mulatto that they pick, because I know they're not gonna pick more than one of us. And I just found that inherently funny and tragic and all of those things that make for really good fictional stew.

Yeah, and I feel like Hollywood's also so full of tropes, and this book is so full of those tropes. I mean, this isn't giving too much away, but early in the book, we find out that the way that Jane meets her husband Lenny is basically through a psychic, which, I mean, so I've read the book twice now. The first time I read it, I took a note, because I wasn't sure if you were going to come on the show when I read it the first time, right?

So I was just like taking notes just in case, and I went back and looked through them as I was taking notes again this time, and both times in that section, I just wrote, so LA., even though they're in New York, it's just like such an LA thing to be like, we met through a psychic, or like because of a psychic prediction.

And he's out in California, too.

He's in like Montecito or something, right?

Yeah. He's like a gay black psychic who is living in Montecito, and he has a daughter named Tuesday, and a cloth bathtub imported from England. And he's not a psychic, he's a racial alchemist.

He tells people their racial future. And he tells her, you know, she's going to meet a black, a funny black man at a party, and he's going to be wearing West Coast shoes. And I think you're right, the tropes.

I mean, there's like a romantic comedy, almost tropes there going on, and that's subverted in all these ways. And then there's the sort of, you know, I'd mentioned like Tyler Perry, and the sort of like poor person becoming rich and living in luxury. And that's like trading places, and all of these things that are storylines that I was tapping into in this, where it's like, she's gonna make it to Hollywood, and she's gonna turn their family's fortunes around, and it feels very Hollywood in and of itself.

Yeah, it's a very like bootstraps gone wrong kind of story. There's, I mean, I was taking notes as I was going, there's a lot of tropes, some of which we can't talk about because they're spoilers later on in the book, but there's a lot of like playing with that Hollywood stuff, which I also just love, because it does make the book feel so cinematic, right? Like it's like, you can imagine all of these moments with Jane so vividly, because we've been conditioned to understand this story, even as you're subverting it.

It's like, oh, I know what this thing is. I know who that woman is. I know what this moment is.

And it's really talking about like enjoyable. It's really gratifying to the reader because it, and I mean this as a compliment, you sort of do a lot of the work for us so we can just enjoy the story. Like I didn't feel like I was like schlepping through this.

I was like, oh, I know where we are. Like I did it, yeah.

I hope this is true because I'm still trying to sell out.

Oh no, you should for sure. I think if I could sell out, I would. Nobody wants to buy a book podcast, unfortunately.

I mean, I would, I would sell this to like for like $16 probably, like anything. I mean, that's another huge part of the book is like the money part. Like this is a book about money.

Well, this is like money, you know. And like money being success.

I mean, I grew up not with much money. And I mean, that's a bit of an understatement. Like my sister and I sound like we were like Dickensian.

We were getting jobs at 11 and 12, pretending to be 18. And our reason for needing to work as like clerks and stores when we were mere children was not that we had to pay our mother to buy groceries. It was because we wanted gold hoops and we wanted clothes and we wanted, and we didn't want to have to put them on layaway, which that's what we did back then in the 80s.

And we were extremely materialistic children. And my mother had no money. She was a Bohemian poet and she was like, you're on your own kids.

So money and my kids, we found all these diaries from high school in the basement and we're looking through them together. And every page of my diary in high school had money symbols around the diary entry. It was just a list of things I wanted to buy.

I mean, it was like, my kids were like, do you even have a soul? Who were you? And I was like, I was so anxious about acquiring things as a high school student.

And it was other stuff, drama with boys and friends and stuff. But like, yeah, I just, I think, you know, that's the like really distinctly American obsession, right? It's like, and it's a very LA one too.

Like LA is obsessed with money and obsessed with status around money. And everyone here feels that they're just around the corner from their big break in a way that, I don't think people in other cities feel. So the money part was, you know, something that I wanted to tap into that I sort of at one point in my life had this like real anxiety and hunger for as a kid.

Yeah. That next big break thing is again, so LA. That's the lie of LA.

If you don't believe that you would never stay here or not everyone, but like a lot of people would leave.

Well, the Uber drivers were all actors and the people at Starbucks working behind the counter, like everyone is sort of plugged into this dream machine, whether they show it or not, like there's some connection to it and it's the potential to turn your life around fantasy here.

Okay, wait, we're going to take a quick break and we'll be right back.

Okay, we're back. I want to ask you about the title of the book, Colored Television. It comes up very early in the book.

Lenny and Jane like to watch a certain type of television that they called Colored Television. Will you talk about, I happen to have insider information because I remember when we did the Riverhead Variety show, you all were up to the last possible moment trying to decide on the title. I'm curious what some of the other options were.

Yeah.

Well, the book was called for the longest time, nusu nusu, which is the title, and this was before I even sold it, the title of the novel that's the big failed novel that Jane is writing. It's called nusu nusu, which translates to Partly Partly, and it's the history of the Mulatto people for 400 years, a doomed project. I had that as the title, and then basically they felt, and I agreed with, that it wasn't as catchy as it could be.

because nobody knew, and I would tell people that title, and they would say, what?

What?

Knew what? Knew what? It wasn't recognizable words, it's Swahili.

They were like, you're signifying something that the book doesn't really come up with. So they were like, what about Partly, Partly? And I felt like that just was too betwixt in between.

And it didn't have the energy of the book. It felt like a tragic mulatto novel.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

And it was like too, I was like, I don't want to see those words on a shelf looking at me. And so I had to like go right before your variety show, like I was like, what the hell is the title? And that just jumped out at me as funny and sort of the way that it's described as being like trashy black television.

Another trope, right? So the trope of the book and the irony of the book in that title.

What about names? How do you name your characters?

That's really like the first thing that comes to me in a sense. And Jane was just always Jane and I couldn't fully explain it to people, except that I thought she was sort of obsessed with images and being kind of this cookie cutter person. And then I also thought about the reverberations with Sarah Jane in Imitation of Life, who's the ultimate tragic mulatto character from the classic movie of Douglas Zirk.

But all of those were like secondary thoughts. The first thing is what does this woman look like her name would be? And Jane was the name that I came to.

And then instinctually all those other names were just felt right. How did you like the names?

I love names. I always add so much though. Like I was just texting with a friend who just finished her book and loved it.

And I said to her, I was like, it must be a coincidence that this year it's Jane and James, because your husband's big novel this year is James. And I was like, they're just sitting in the house talking about James and Jane, Jane and James. Like I just couldn't get that out of my head.

obviously like the Hampton character, that name is so loaded. Hampton is such a loaded name. I actually think on the day that you and I are recording, today is actually Fred Hampton's birthday, if I'm not mistaken, maybe yesterday.

But I felt like that name, I think Lenny is such a peculiar choice for that character, but I love it. My nephew's name is Lennox, and I was like, I'll never call him Lenny. Now, of course, I call him Lenny every single day.

But it is such an old-timey name, but works for that disgruntled husband character. I think they really work, and I just like Brett. You know exactly who Brett is.

A mixed guy named Brett, it's just like, oh, I see you. I know you. So I feel like you're really good at names.

I think you really, in new people, Khalil or whatever, Khalil, depending on how you want to pronounce it, that's just such a name.

Well, names are so interesting because they tell us, unless you've chosen your name, yourself, they tell us about our parents' fantasy of ourselves, much more than they tell us about who we are. But then there's a whole psychological theory called nominal determinism, that depending on your name, you grow into a certain type of person, and the name has some power over who you've become. So as a novelist, I'm always really interested both in what's determined and what's told about, Hampton's parents may have been of that era, that were into Fred Hampton and radical black politics.

Then they have this son, who his trajectory is to become a network producer in Hollywood.

But to perform, but he performs the Hampton. He has sold the idea of Hampton even though he's really like everyone else, a sellout, right?

He's packaged it perfectly, yes.

Right. The joke of that name just lands so hard if you get it. It's just like, of course, this guy.

When you're talking about self-determination a little bit, I guess, I love plot. I've discovered in talking to some other reader friends, I guess everyone doesn't read the book trying to figure out what's going to happen next. Some people just read and just let it wash over them, not me.

I'm like, oh, this is a clue. I'll have the full whiteboard with the strings, like, okay, she said this, I'm fully going crazy. I like your books because there's things happen.

Usually, I can't guess what's going to happen in your books, because a lot of times I'm solving the book on page five. I'm like, oh, that person is actually dead or whatever. I want to know how you're thinking about plot as you're writing.

Do you, when you get the idea for the book, do you know X, Y, and Z is going to happen to Jane, or like that Maria is going to end up where Maria ends up, or are you like, I just want to explore Maria and she tells me what she's going to do or whatever?

I mean, I'm watching a house be built next door to us right now. And it's not unlike the horror that I'm seeing out my window right now. And you know, I spend so much time on each book to give the illusion to the reader that this was easy and breezy.

But the amount of labor that goes into it and scaffolding, and drafts upon drafts, you know, with plot, the first draft is me just trying to figure out who these people are, and then find my fictional distance from them. If they resemble someone I know, I have to find a way to make them someone else. And so many drafts into it, it starts to become clear what the sort of problem is from the beginning, that's going to unravel the story and what sort of, but each thing has to be caused by something that happened before it.

It has to make sense to the characters that created. And, you know, with this novel, the whole novel, they're subletting for this guy, Brett, a friend of hers' house, this beautiful house in the hills. And he's very wealthy.

He's out of the country. And they're doing things that they shouldn't be doing as house sitters. They're drinking all his wine.

She's wearing his wife's clothes. And she's using things of his and sort of exploiting him in a certain way. And he's calling her the whole novel.

And without giving anything away, she's avoiding his calls. And I didn't really know until the very end why he was calling her.

Right.

That was something where you kind of write your way to the answer, and then you look back to see what clues you've given yourself about why this is happening. But it takes... this is a very messy process.

It's a highly difficult and ugly, ugly process at times to create a story that moves and feels elegant.

Right. Right.

Terrible for a while.

Okay. This is also a compliment, but it might sound like an insult, but I mean it as a compliment. I'm a highly mean person.

I'm very mean. I feel like one of the things I like about your books is that, while I don't know if you are a mean person, you're very mean to your characters. We'll talk a little bit about meanness because I know some people, they really love their characters and they treat them so well, and they want you, the audience, to love them.

But I don't get that sense from reading your books that you feel that way.

No. Well, nobody wants to read, first of all, about happy characters with no problems. They just don't.

That would be the most boring novel in the world. I also feel that part of the reason I have to find fictional distance from all my characters is so that I can not only allow them to do things that I wouldn't want to be seen doing, and nobody knows that I do that, but that also I want to have things happen to them that I don't want to have happen to me. They have to become puppets for me to play out ideas and it can't be like, oh, this is my husband or this is my mother and I'm going to then protect them too much.

But once they become real characters on the page, all bets are off. But I would say that they're not only maybe I'm mean to my characters, but they're not very nice to other people.

No, no, no, no. I mean, it's like they're people that I root for your characters, even though I don't like them. Like the way that after I finish new people, the way that I talk about Maria is I'm just like, poor thing.

Like, don't invite her to my birthday. Like it's like we all know Maria, but we also like don't like Maria. But we do feel bad for Maria because it's like, girl, go to therapy.

Like, but like it's like you can relate to knowing Maria in a way that in some books it's like, oh, that person is like almost too clean. Your characters are messy and mean, and they like get into the muck in a way that I really enjoy that I think, you know, a lot of people need a likable character. And I don't think your characters are particularly likable in that sense.

But like I like them because I like getting to see people do the things that like you're saying I don't ever want to be caught doing.

I mean, you don't go to a novel to be at your birthday gathering. Like you go there to understand the human condition and to be entertained. So I think that's this weird idea that come into the culture that we should like these people.

That's not like I like people, but this isn't what I go to novels for. I also had this weird experience when Caucasia was published to be praised for writing against the tragic mulatto and writing the plucky, lovable child. I was realizing after that book was published that I have this sense of despair every time I would hear that.

It was like, first of all, I never want to write a child character again. And once someone becomes an adult, they're immediately complicit in the world that they've wandered into. They're not an innocent child being dragged around by her mother.

She, you know, and so as soon as I write a problematic character, then does she re-inscribe the tragic mulatto? Right. What is that pressure on us that we can't be as messy and human as any other character because we have this trope over our shoulder?

And I sort of had to liberate myself from that in extreme and just be like, I'm going to write into the mess of being human. And if you see this as tragic, then that says more about you than it says about me.

Yeah. That's so interesting. Okay.

I want to talk a little bit about how you write. How often, how many hours a day do you have music or no? Are you in your home?

Are there snacks and beverages? Talk about it.

I write in a library or the first draft I write outside of the house because my house is such a distraction pit, and I have children and a husband and dogs, and it's just a lot of food, access to food. So I have to go to a space in which it's not allowed. You can't snack and you have to just be focused.

But I used to write at all hours, and now that I'm a grown-ass woman with a job and a life outside of my writing, I have to limit it to certain hours a day because it's just playing with imaginary friends, it's got to have its time and place, and someone has to come and pick up someone at something. But with this novel, I would go out to Santa Barbara and spend the weekend at a hotel editing, and go and just isolate myself with, and not a nice hotel, just like a shitty, very generic hotel, which is an interesting, and all I have to do is look at this manuscript. I have ADHD for sure.

I've had it since I was a young child, so I have to do these tricks to get myself to not watch intervention episodes and things like that.

You said that you leave the house to, as Jane does, you said you leave the house to get away from your snacks. If you were going to stay in the house and have snacks, what snacks would you be having?

I like corn and Cadbury's fruit and nut chocolate bars.

Whoa

Not at the same time, different time.

No, I didn't assume at the same time. I just never heard anybody. I only know Cadbury cream eggs.

That's all I know.

Yeah, I have this very bad addiction to that, but when I was finishing this novel in the dark, dark days of finishing this novel, I was in the Huntington Library and I discovered there's a staff lounge with a vending machine where people go to drink the coffee from the machine. It's for the people who work at Huntington, not for the scholars and the library people. I got entry to this room and found out that they had skittles in the vending machine.

I had a bag of skittles for weeks, every day while I was finishing this and it was disgusting. My dentist was like, what happened?

Skittles are so gross but also sneaky good. It's one of those candies where they're very nasty, but also edible still in a pleasurable way. I totally know what you're getting at there.

I know that you guys don't talk about this a lot, but I'm going to ask you a little bit about your husband. Are you going to kill me? Is it okay?

Sure.

It's not a serious question. I just want to know, you're married to Percival Everett. You two are my two favorites.

I don't know.

I love both of your work. Do you all share your work with each other? Do you ever go to him and be like, I can't get this thing to work?

Or he comes to you and he's like, I don't know. James and Huck are just on this fucking raft or Monk is so annoying. Is there any working together or is it like, go in your room and write your little book and send it to your editor like, I am your spouse?

You know what? I'm actually glad you asked that question because the answer is really funny and really clear is that we never share our work with each other. I read James and Gally.

Oh my gosh.

Read it until it was finished. I think if you were to come and just be a fly on the wall, you might think we were like two dentists who got married.

Like you just don't talk about work at home at all.

We sort of allude to it. We allude to it, but somehow without even discussing it, it was like we're not each other's editors, we're not each other's teachers, we're fully grown creative artists, and we're going to give each other that space, but there's not an exchange of work going on. And there's an appreciation of each other's work, but we talk about politics and other people's art all the time.

But not each other's.

But there's not like, can you edit my manuscript ever in this out cold? And it's very interesting, dentist vibes.

I love this, I love this. Okay, I have one more follow up question, and you don't have to answer this one. Have you ever read one of his books and been like, I don't like it?

Or he read something of yours and been like, it's not good. Like at the end, because that would be my greatest fear in life, right? That I make this thing and that my husband or someone very close to me, like sees it and is like, not your best.

Like I'd be like, I'm dead. So I would try to give it to my husband very early so that he could help me so that I wouldn't ever have the moment where the person that I love on the like, a person that I love a lot on the face of the earth is like, well, they'll always have next week's episode.

Yeah, I mean, I think we liked each other's work before we ever were friends. So and the thing about novels and stories and writers is that work can be imperfect and still have an intelligence about it. So yes, I think we judge work differently.

And you know, it's like a part of a body of work. We both are very committed to like the beauty of imperfection. So that's my politic answer.

Okay, I will come off this topic because I know you guys don't ever talk about it in the pub, I didn't find out you guys were married until like a year ago. I was like, wait, what's happening? Anyways, and I, you know, whatever, I don't, we're done.

But I do want to talk about another famous person that you're linked with, which is of now Kamala Harris. because we now have our great mixed presidential woman candidate. She's not a true mulatto because she's Jamaican and Indian.

But you wrote about her and wrote about race in the New York Times for an op-ed that I obviously loved and devoured. We're talking about this in September. The election is going to be coming up soon.

I text my friend Zach because he had just read your book. When she came out as a candidate and Trump was like, she's not black, I was like, this is fucking Danzy season. I was like, I'm so excited that her book is coming out in the midst of-

I told Trump to say that.

Yes. I know you did. I know you were like, Trump, JD, I need a favor.

Can you guys say something crazy? You target her for being mixed.

Yeah. I need book sales. I started taking notes when I watched him saying that to her.

I was on vacation and I was like, oh my God, this is such a perfect encapsulation of what the attitude is towards the mulatto. He's just performatively revealed to us what it is that we experience in this country in terms of the bewilderment and the imposter idea. I started taking notes and I then abandoned them to go swimming and hang out with my kids.

Then I got an email from the New York Times saying, they didn't say this, but it was like resident mulatto. Yes. I went on this in some form and I was like, oh wait, I have finished that essay, I better just finish it.

But I mean, it's interesting. Like I don't feel the same level of like sentimental jubilation about it that I'm supposed to feel. I just feel like obviously what everyone else feels that it better happen.

Yeah. Do you feel differently about her than maybe how you felt about Obama, another famously mixed non mulatto?

Why, what do you mean? I mean, I'm interested in why you're asking that.

I'm just thinking because obviously I was extremely young. Obama, I had just graduated college. I moved away.

I volunteered to work for Obama. I quit my job. I moved to Colorado for like two months to knock doors for him.

At that phase in my life, I was very different than I am now, much less cynical. But I feel like something for Obama was like, he's mixed and he's like me because of that. Whereas in retrospect, when I look back on him and I realized like, oh, he is mixed and he is black and white, but he isn't American black and neither is she.

Now I start to have these questions about what is deficient in black Americans that we can't be president. It does shape my excitement about her. I'm much more cynical about her identity than I was about Obama's.

I think it's a lot of different pieces, but I think that's part of it. I also think part of it is that her strategy seems to be not to embrace her diversity or the fact that she, or not even just her, not to embrace her racial makeup at all, or ethnic makeup in a way that Obama really did hammer that home. So I'm wondering if that's shaping how I feel about her too.

I also think the fact that Trump came in between.

I wonder if Michelle is also the Michelle component. because I thought more radical than Obama in the White house was Michelle in the White house.

Yes.

And she is a Black American. She is a highly melanated beautiful Black woman who was in the White house. And to me, that made that difference to looking at them as a couple, being the first Black family in the White house.

And I think Kamala is exciting for me on other levels about being a woman. But I think we're all a little bit more jaded than we were. Yes.

I think you're right. Our souls are weary. We've also seen all the Black people in MAGA hats and Clarence Thomas.

And we don't equate someone's body and what that body signifies, with what their politics are, what they're going to do. So we all have to be, I think, a little more vigilant than we ever were about who this person really is as a person, what policy, but the symbolism, I guess, feels thin at a certain level. Yeah, it does.

But it doesn't mean that it's not going to be good for books. Right.

No, it's going to be great. Sell out, sell out, sell out. And I also think, I've had these conversations with a lot of my friends of like, there are not enough smart people on mixed race identity for this election cycle.

Like there are so many stupid people talking about this where I'm like, well, I'm so sorry, but you don't understand actually what's happening here. And I think that that has also colored how I think about comma because I'm irritated about having to even read or like listen to some of this in a way that with Obama it sort of was like more novel. And I was like, oh, I'm curious to know how what other people think of us, right?

And like now I'm like, no, you're a fucking idiot. Like you don't get it.

I mean, I think we are as mixed people, we are given so many privileges. We're so visible. We're so over represented in black roles.

Like it's the woman is always biracial and all of these things that are really problematic about mulattos.

Yeah.

At the same time, I think there's like a lack of a real conversation about mixed identity and not just about the like joys and subtleties and connections and humor of that, but also about there is a very specific kind of hostility that targets people of mixed race, that isn't any worse than any other kind of hostility. It's just specific and I want to sort of name it and explore it as a writer because it's something we all know what it is. We've all felt it at different moments and like it's, yet it hasn't been talked about.

Yes, that's so right. But like you were saying in the beginning about the specificity of mulatto, it's like, it's not anti-blackness, it's anti-mulattoness. Like it's like specific to us.

And you're absolutely right, of course, like the over-representation, also the like surprise and delight that people, certain people find when like they discover someone is mixed, right? Like it's like, oh, what a charming, lovely thing. Like now I can celebrate this person in a different way, which is like that privilege that you're talking about sort of both sides of it.

Well, I think you and I both, neither of us feel neutral because we are mixed. That's not the space that leaves us then. We are not like some politically neutral sort of panacea.

We're very clear on where our allegiances are in this country and where we position ourselves. So that kind of whitening and neutralizing of mixedness is also something to kind of constantly resist.

Yeah. Okay. This is a very random question, but what's a word you can never spell correctly on the first try?

Rhythm. To use a very racially coded term. I can't remember my black card now, but I could never spell rhythm on the first try.

You don't have to be able to spell it to be black, but you do have to have it to be black. So that's fine. That's fine.

For people who love Colored Television, what are some other books you might recommend that are in conversation with that book?

I would say Nathaniel West, The Day of the locust. It's one of the great novels and it influenced me a lot. I would say, I love black, satirical writing, but these ones that people maybe haven't read or thought about, like Black No More and Fran Ross Oreo.

I've written about both of those books.

We did Oreo on Book Club last year on the show. So we read your intro or your piece. Yeah.

Right, but I was gonna say, there's a film that nobody has seen that I feel influenced me profoundly. That's from the 90s, a completely indie black film called Chameleon Street that is so funny. I laughed so hard when I saw it in my early 20s, maybe I was in college, about a black man, a con artist who is desperate for money, and he's willing to do anything to get money.

And it's the funniest movie I've ever seen. And it's deeply misogynist, trigger warning, but it's deeply funny. Okay.

Last question. If you could have one person dead or alive, read this book, who would you want it to be?

Richard Pryor.

Okay, that's good. That's good. That's not the sellout answer though, Danzy.

So you're not good at selling out.

Oh, do you mean like, buy this book?

No, no, no. I meant the answer you gave me, but I thought maybe you would give me something like the number one buyer at, yeah, Barack Obama. Get it on the list.

That was not the sellout answer. He can't do anything for me, Pryor.

No, no, he's useless too, but it's the right answer. All right. Well, everybody, wherever you are, go get your copy of Colored Television is out in the world as you're listening to this.

If you've already read Colored Television, but you haven't read New People or Caucasian, go get those books too. You can come into my DMs and talk about all of them with me. I am available to discuss all things Danzy Senna.

Danzy, thank you so much for being here. This was a joy.

Such a pleasure, thank you so much.

And everyone else, we will see you in The Stacks.

All right, y'all, that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening and thank you again to Danzy Senna for being my guest. I'd also like to say a huge thank you to the team at Riverhead, Ashley Garland, Afrin Alabaqshisada and Bianca Flores for helping to make this conversation possible.

Don't forget, The Stacks Book Club pick for September is Jazz by Toni Morrison. We will be discussing the book on Wednesday, September 25th with Eve Dunbar. If you love this podcast and you want inside access to it, head over to patreon.com/thestacks to join The Stacks Pack and subscribe to my newsletter at tracithomas.substack.com.

Make sure you’re subscribed to The Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you’re listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify be sure to leave a rating and a review. For more from the stacks follow us on social media, @thestackspod on Instagram, threads, and TikTok, and @thestackspod_ on Twitter and check out the website thestackspodcast.com This episode of the stacks was edited by Christian Dueñas, with production assistance from Megan Caballero. Our graphic designer is Robin McCreight and our theme music is from Tagirijus. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas!

]]>Ep. 336 Blackness is the Ingredient with Danzy SennaEp. 335 This Thing Called Satisfaction with Eve DunbarStacks AssistantWed, 04 Sep 2024 07:00:00 +0000https://www.thestackspodcast.com/2024/09/04/ep-335-eve-dunbar65d2b7a49de6215855aa3aaa:66084694f1e135566828a41a:66d55345e0d39b120385d43e

English professor Eve Dunbar is here to discuss her forthcoming book, Monstrous Work and Radical Satisfaction: Black Women Writing under Segregation. Eve shares how libraries played a pivotal role in her childhood relationship to reading, and how that love of reading eventually led her to focus her academic work on African-American literature. We also delve into resistance and satisfaction as a way to fight white supremacy, and the book she most loves to teach.

The Stacks Book Club pick for September is Jazz by Toni Morrison. We will discuss the book on September 25th with Eve Dunbar returning as our guest.

LISTEN NOW

Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Google Podcasts | Overcast | Stitcher | Transcript

  

Everything we talk about on today’s episode can be found below in the show notes and on Bookshop.org and Amazon.

To support The Stacks and find out more from this week’s sponsors, click here.

Connect with Eve: Twitter
Connect with The Stacks: Instagram | Twitter | Shop | Patreon | Goodreads | Substack | Subscribe

To contribute to The Stacks, join The Stacks Pack, and get exclusive perks, check out our Patreon page. If you prefer to support the show with a one time contribution go to paypal.me/thestackspod.

The Stacks participates in affiliate programs. We receive a small commission when products are purchased through links on this website.

TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Traci Thomas 0:09

Welcome to The Stacks. A podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Traci Thomas, and today we are joined by Eve Dunbar. Eve is a professor of English at Rice University whose work and teaching focus on late 19th century and contemporary African American literature and culture, with a particular emphasis on black feminism, labor, segregation and politics. Her forthcoming book is Monstrous Work and Radical Satisfaction: Black Women Writing Under Segregation. It is an academic exploration of radical feminist resistance through writing today. Eve and I talk about how she came to literature and wanting to be a professor, the book she loves to teach most, and what it means to write and work in opposition to white supremacy. Eve will be back for our discussion of our September book club. Pick jazz by Toni Morrison, which is a beautifully complex novel set in the Harlem Renaissance. Make sure to read the book and listen along with us on September 25 quick reminder, everything we talk about on each episode of the stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. And listen if you like the show, if you want inside access to it, if you want to support the work that I do to make this independent podcast every single week, head to patreon.com/the stacks and join the stacks. Pack. It's just $5 a month, and you get to be part of one of the best bookish communities that has ever existed in the history of human beings. Fact check me, by joining this fax pack, you get to be part of our Discord. You get to come to our monthly virtual book club meetups. You get to hear a bonus episode every month. And you also get to know that by joining you're making it possible for me to make this show. Another fun perk of the snacks pack is getting a shout out on this very podcast. So here's a huge thank you to some of our newest members, Christine l Whitney, Karen H Brown, ethylene Whitmire, Erica, Adams, Allison jelly and Daniel Hanbury. Thank you all so much. And for those of you who love the show and want to support it, but maybe don't want to be part of a community like that, but still want to know what I think about books, pop culture and whatever else is going on. Head to Traci thomas.substack.com and subscribe to my newsletter. All right, now it's time for my conversation with Eve Dunbar.

All right, everybody. I'm so excited. I am joined today by a professor and author. Her latest book, which comes out in November, is called Monstrous Work and Radical Satisfaction: Black Women Writing Under Segregation. I am joined today by Eve Dunbar. Eve, welcome to the stacks.

Eve Dunbar 2:37

Thank you. Thank you, Traci, I'm happy to be here.

Traci Thomas 2:41

I'm so excited to have you. I have to tell you I started your book. Oh no. And was literally like, holy shit. Eve might be the smartest person alive right now. I was blown away by the book. It is so thoughtful. I have so many questions for you about, like, how you organize your thinking and how you think about reading. Because as I was reading it, I was like, oh my god, she is, like, doing so much with every idea, and the book is so short. And I was just like, so I was so impressed. So anyways, we're gonna talk about how smart you are today.

Eve Dunbar 3:23

Yeah, I don't know how much criticism you read, but I yeah, I don't know. I don't feel like extra smart, but I do love to read and and think about black women's lit. So okay,

Traci Thomas 3:42

we'll get to how smart you are in the book. We're gonna start sort of in a less intense intro, which is just, even though you told me you hate doing this, so sorry. But can you just tell folks a little bit about yourself, like where you're from, maybe, like how you came to love reading, how you came to love literature.

Eve Dunbar 3:59

You know, I I'm from all over the place, in the northeast, so I'm, like, born in New Hampshire, but spent a good bit of my childhood in Hartford, Connecticut. My mom died when I was really young, and so I kind of moved a bit after she died. Lived with some family in Massachusetts, and then kind of went to high school, late middle school in a little tiny town in rural Pennsylvania. And I write about this in the intro to Monstrous Work. Kind of, why rural Pennsylvania? Because my family's not from there. But one of the things that my grandparents would do, because they weren't from that town, is drop my brother and I off at the library child care. Yes, it does. So we would be in the library for like hours, some when they had things to do, and so I just got really comfortable being around books. I. Um, as care providers, if you will. Also I had this really clear sense for myself that I wanted to go to college, and I thought that, and that was, I can remember, there was this little pamphlet in the lobby of the library that was, like the 100 books you should read before college, or something. And, you know, I made my way through, I don't I remember reading or checking out, like Shakespeare, Midsummer Night's Dream, and, like, not understanding any of it. I was like, Okay, so I'm working towards this thing. And so that's kind of the origin, but in terms of when I learned to love books, I and this is like cliche, but also really true. I read Jane Eyre, and like fell in love with that book, this Victorian novel, for no good reason. I guess it was meant to be, as somebody who identifies as female, as a woman, or as a girl, like that was a rite of passage for me. And so that's when I really, like got into reading novels. And then I just went through all these Victorian novels, like weathering heights, all of the ones that you would read as, like a young girl, yeah,

Traci Thomas 6:25

yeah. Did you? Did you when you went to college? Did you study English? Is that your major?

Eve Dunbar 6:30

I did. But even that I, you know, I'm first gen my mom, my dad, my grandparents, didn't go to college, so I didn't really have any models for like, anything, which was great, because then I didn't have any expectations. I went to school on a scholarship, and I didn't feel compelled to, like, be a doctor. You know what I mean? Like nobody was like, you must go to medical school or you have to become an engineer. So when I applied to undergrad. I applied because I was taking an economics class in high school, and I was like, Oh, I like econ, you know, I like playing the stock market. I was like, this would be a great life. And so I applied to do econ. But when we had to do, like, first year writing, and they put us in these, like three courses that were one of these, like retention things that they do for first gen, you take three classes with all the same people, and then blah, blah, blah. So I chose this class. The primary class was a philosophy class that was like American pragmatism. I don't know why I chose it, but I also then was in this women's studies course that was just intro to women's studies, and then we were in a poli sci course. And the whole idea was that you would have these three courses, and you'd have a group of people, because I went to Penn State, a big state school, you'd have these, this core group of people who you could kind of work with throughout your first year or your first semester. So at the end of the year, I had to write this paper for my philosophy course, which I guess would have been my first year writing course in philosophy. And I wrote about Their Eyes Were Watching God as a kind of pragmatic, a pragmatist text, right? Because Hurston is like, you've got to go there to know there, like that. You have to do the thing in order to know and understand the thing. And so I, I wrote this paper, and I remember that the teacher was like, You're a really good writer. And I was like, oh, that must mean I should be an English major philosophy professor telling me, I was like, oh, then I'll be an English major, and then that's what I did.

Traci Thomas 8:48

Okay? And when you were coming up in the in your library, boot camp, education, child care services, all the library is great because it is all things to all people. It is everything,

Eve Dunbar 9:00

all of that. For a lot of people, librarians are not happy to know that people are dropping their kids off.

Traci Thomas 9:07

They definitely know it's not a secret.

Eve Dunbar 9:10

It's a safe place. Well, in a small rural town, it's a safe place. I think in larger cities it might, because of the population, it might be a little bit less safe, I don't know, but for us, it was a safe place.

Traci Thomas 9:22

I love that you talked about Jane Eyre withering heights. At what point did you come to African American literature?

Eve Dunbar 9:28

You know, I actually didn't come to that until graduate school. I remember I took this as an undergrad. I took an AFAM lit course with a professor who was definitely not about teaching undergrads. He was definitely always late to class. Sometimes he wouldn't show up, like he could not be literally could not be bothered.

Traci Thomas 9:54

I love that for him, African American literature. So that was like

Eve Dunbar 9:57

my early AFM, lit and. Education. I then, like, went on to be a research assistant for him over the summer. And he was wonderful. And kind of just really, his name was Bernard bell. He really was completely clued in, like, oddly enough, he had a Rolodex on his desk. He was interesting, because he came to school probably after he had fought in the Korean War, and so I think he was like a vet. He was a vet, and then got his PhD. But anyway, he still had a Rolodex. And on his Rolodex he had Toni Morrison's, like, name information in the Rolodex, a flex, yeah, well, but like, not even a flex, because nobody would have known except somebody who was in his office, like typing stuff, like me, and there was another student. So he sort of modeled something for me, about AFM lit, but it wasn't really until I went to graduate school and was just in writing my dissertation, then I was like, actually, I really want to think about race in the United States, and for me that was predominantly through, like, Through black lit, or through the racial passing narrative. That's what I ended up writing a dissertation on. So thinking about the flexibility of like blackness and what it could mean and what it didn't, did and didn't mean throughout the 20th century, right?

Traci Thomas 11:36

Let's talk a little bit about this new book, Monstrous Work and Radical Satisfaction. I want you to sort of just tell since people won't have had a chance to read it by the time this is coming out, but we will be dropping pre order links in the show notes people. And it's really good. It's short and really exciting and interesting stuff, though I'm not familiar with a lot of the work that you write towards. So I want you to just kind of set it up for people explain sort of what the idea is behind it, and then the four authors that you use to kind of make your point, etc,

Eve Dunbar 12:06

yeah. So it's, um, a study of what we would call mid 20th century, so between, like, the 30s and the 60s, of black women writing. So I write about Gwendolyn Brooks, who's a poet. I write about Alice Childress, who's a playwright, but she writes a set of kind of newspaper articles that get put into compilation. I write about Anne Petrie, who's probably best known for the novel The Street, and then a writer named Dorothy West, who was part of the Harlem Renaissance, but very young during the Harlem Renaissance, so she kind of moves into this 30s, 40s, 50s period. She comes of age during that time. So I'm writing about them as models for how black women were thinking about their identity as Americans in a time where the possibility for citizenship, full citizenship was being dangled by the state as accessible through like integrative or integration. And so I'm thinking about them not as writing towards integration, but writing against integration. And that's not to say writing against equality, right? But looking for something that does not require black people to model whiteness, but blackness to be sufficient in and of itself, and that's what I say, is kind of the monstrous work that they're doing, which is to write against integration in the moment when we all should be kind of looking towards integration as salvation, as kind of being proximate to white people, as the way that we get what we want, right? And they're going to say, you don't have to do that necessarily. And instead, there's this other thing called satisfaction, right? That that this is the radical work of black women, which is to be satisfied in and of yourself. And here are different ways that you can do it. I

Traci Thomas 14:24

love it. I just, I think that like, what you've kind of like distilled even just through the title alone, which you obviously like, unpack deeply in the book. But it's just a totally different way to say a thing that I feel like people say all the time, which is, like, I don't want to, you know, work within the confines of white supremacy, or, like, I want to be seen outside of the white lens and all of this stuff. But like, by reframing it as monstrous work and radical satisfaction, there's something so like, juicy about those words. I don't, I don't know, like, what? I don't know how to say what it feels like, but I'm doing like, a lot of shoulder wiggles and like grabbing with my fingers, like there. It just feels like there's more to cling on to. Thinking about it as like work, as like monstrous work, it just feels so much more actionable. Yeah, and I

Eve Dunbar 15:20

think that for me, when I started writing the book, I just kind of finish up, finished up a stint, like in my institution, working in administration. And I think people who probably work in the corporate world probably feel this like, dang, you know, I tried to tell these people like, you can't do this. But nobody listens to me. That's crazy. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, where your perspective is not valued or listened to. And like, I think we, you know, you have language like, oh, that person sold out, right? There's, there are ways of being in institutions. You can toe the line of the institution, or you can go against the line of the institution. And so for me, I was thinking about, Okay, what does it mean to go against the line of the institution that feels it feels really dangerous. You know, there's a better paycheck if you toe the line, like there's upward mobility if you do the thing that you're supposed to do in the ways that you're supposed to do it. And so I was really deep into thinking about that kind of like, what does that mean? How do you do your job when, in theory, we're all supposed to be like, if you are a particular type of liberal, if you're kind of, whatever you want to call yourself, anti establishment. It's all discursive. But when you're actually doing it right, feels really dangerous. Or it can feel like you're giving up a lot, and I think and you are. And so I was really deep in that monstrous like, what does it mean to go into you know, how do writers? How have writers? And that's where I always go. How have, like, black writers? Have they talked about this feeling before? Have they talked about how you do it. How do you resist, and especially as a black woman, how do you resist, right? Without the like support networks that many people have, the financial support networks, the political inclusion, the social standing, all of that stuff, it's got to be risky, like you know. So let me go to the sources that I know to see how it's been done. And so I was looking for that, but what I realized when I was looking is that there's this whole other realm that they're offering, which is satisfaction, or that joy, that feeling of completeness that comes not just not from the loss, not from the monstrous work, but right also, in addition to the loss, this other fullness. And so I began to think of them in tandem together, as modeling, kind of, yeah, how we should, how we could be in the world, what we can get, and

Traci Thomas 18:00

like the looking back, like I was reading this book of the week of the Democratic Convention, right? So like looking back, and then like looking ahead, or like even just being present in this moment and thinking about this and also thinking about the ways that, like black women, can be doing the monstrous work in one moment and then in the next moment, totally be toeing the line. Yeah. I think this idea of like pushing up against white supremacy, or like being outside of the white gaze is, in our minds, feels like a pure Yeah, 100% of the time, at your job in administration or whatever, you are always fighting against white supremacy. But the truth is, it's never that. It's always like, this one little moment of resistance, or this one pet project, like, I'm gonna go all in on this one little thing, but like, I do have to toe the line here or there, or, like, it's not worth the fight. And I think, like, it's just so interesting to be thinking about the women who were doing this work in their writing in the 30s and 40s and 40s and 50s and 60s, and then here in 2024 looking at Kamala Harris on that stage giving that speech, and being like, this is all of a line, yeah.

Eve Dunbar 19:12

And I think that it's tough, right? Because, you know, you want to think that I liked what you said, which is it's a kind of give and take or pushing a pull, and maybe it's the small work that you can do, but then ultimately you got to get paid, and you need your health care, and you know, people are depending on you, so you maybe can't live a Life a full, radical separation and all of that jazz. And that's what I liked about the writers that I'm I wrote about one they reconceive of the radical and in the moment that I'm thinking about in like, the 5040s, 50s, yeah, 60s. That's like the Cold War, and it's the kind of you. The left, the in the US is is present more so than it is for us. Now, like a particular kind of communist bent, socialist bent, left is way more powerful than it is for us at this moment, thinking about people, I guess the big critique of Kamala from Trump is that she's a socialist, or she's a pianist.

Traci Thomas 20:24

I wish,

Eve Dunbar 20:27

no, she, she's a national, an American nationalist. But that said for these women, there was this thing called the the strong radical left, and but what I, what I began to be interested in, and they were all kind of slightly affiliated, right? Lots of black people in the writing world were, even though it's also McCarthyism is happening, so you can't, you know. So all of that stuff gets brushed under the carpet, but anyway, they're influenced by but they're also thinking about the reality that of what you just said, like that women, the stakes are higher, perhaps, or the stakes are high for all of us. And so you have to find these other smaller ways to be radical. It's not going to look like ideological radicalism, necessarily. And this is to for me, it's like, I don't want to say the ideological is irrelevant. It's absolutely relevant. But we also have to have a capacity to see the work that people are doing interpersonally. It's not the same as like being a card carrying member of the Communist Party, and if that's the only way you register radicalism, a lot of women, black women, in particular, are going to be left out because they couldn't carry the card right, right? Because the party wasn't really capable of seeing them right so that it, for me, opens up a way of thinking about, like radicalism as inviting and, you know, and more sumptuous, more juicy, less less static and less kind of rigid and much more flexible. And I think that's inviting, perhaps,

Traci Thomas 22:24

yeah, this is sort of a shift within the book. But how did you pick the four women that you decided to use? Were you, were you thinking of the idea and sort of just reading and these people fell into your lap? Or were you thinking of these women and then the idea came like, how does the actual form kind of come to you,

Eve Dunbar 22:42

yeah, you know, it started with somebody who fell out of the book, so with Zoran and Kirsten and her work, and she's problematic for a number of reasons when you're talking about radicalism or communism, because she was an anti communist. But it started with her, and thinking about her kind of, it literally started because she has this ethnography called Tell my horse. And she, in that ethnography, she takes a photograph of a woman who she says is a zombie. She's doing research in Haiti at the time. And so I was like, that's weird. She's taking a picture of and she's like, this is the only real, true photograph that's ever been taken of an actual zombie. It's a weird, I won't even get into it, but they're like, monstrous. I was like, Oh no. And she has, like, and I've written about this, she has a vexed relationship to the profession of anthropology and the experience of it and doing that work, and nobody validated her work, really, when she was alive, doing that work. And so kind of thinking about, like I said earlier, like, how do you do work when nobody sees the work that you're doing? You do it anyway. And this is what it looks like. So that's the beginning. And then it's a matter of, yeah, like, I have the idea, can I find other writers who are doing it? And I also like to write about, oftentimes, what for African American Lit, are canonical writers, or like writers that you might know, you might know Gwendolyn Brooks, you probably We Real Cool. You probably read that like in high school, somebody made you read We Real Cool. So, you know, I'm also thinking about like, people that people actually are interested in thinking about and reading and like, what can I add to what you know, or what you think you know about writers that you've encountered before?

Traci Thomas 24:43

Yeah, I have two more questions then we'll sort of get into your reading tastes. But one is about Toni Morrison, so we're gonna do jazz you and I at the end of the month, I'm so excited. I've never read it. You've read it.

Eve Dunbar 24:56

Oh yeah, you haven't read it.

Traci Thomas 24:57

I haven't read it. I had never before. I started this. No, I'd never read Toni Morrison. No, never. So what happened when we started in 2018 is we started with The Bluest Eye, and I did it with someone, and then I was like, it would be fun to just do a different Toni Morrison every year. So every episode we've ever done on Toni Morrison is my first time with the book. Wait, and it's been great. I mean, like getting to talk about a mercy with Imani Perry is like, Are you kidding me, or beloved with Damaris B Hill, like, yeah, it's, I'm always just, like, absorbing and learning so much. And we've done some that have been, like, you know, we did tar baby last year with Minda honey, and that was really fun, because that, that book is, like, so juicy. And like, it's like a play. It's just like, messy people, and Minda loves mess and so, like, that was really fun, too. And so, you know, I'm excited to do this one, because I've heard a lot of I've heard a lot of chatter. People like it. People don't like it. It works. It doesn't work. And up until this point, I felt like they've all worked. But now I'm sort of getting into the novels that are less people's favorites. Like, less people tell you love is their favorite. Toni Morrison, you know what? I mean, it's like, I'm getting, I'm starting to get to the ones that people are like, not as excited about. But I feel like jazz and Paradise are sort of the last two that we haven't done that are still people love them.

Eve Dunbar 26:14

Ah, people love paradise. I don't know

Traci Thomas 26:17

some people do. I've heard people say it's their favorite one? Wow. Okay. I mean, that's what I'm saying. I'm getting to the ones that are, like, a little questionable.

Eve Dunbar 26:27

I think jazz is going to be great because you'll love it. Well,

Traci Thomas 26:31

maybe you won't. You might not. There's a murder in it, I'm told so. And I love a murder mystery. It's a we love a murder. Well, it's not

Eve Dunbar 26:38

even a mystery, but there is a murder, and you have to figure out, like, what's gonna what's gonna happen, but it is some of the best like lines that are descriptions of people's, like psyches, even like, not even like what they look like, but where their souls are. Yeah, Morrison is good for just like creating a vivid image of a soul.

Traci Thomas 27:07

So it'll be great. Okay, I'm so excited. And then here's my last little question for you. You're a professor, you teach literature. What's your favorite book to teach?

Eve Dunbar 27:16

Ooh, that's a good one. There are too many. I teach a class, speaking of Morrison, that is probably one of my favorite little classes. It's not even a full semester, it's just what like a six week course. I call it slow or slow and close, and we read one Morrison novel over six weeks, and we read Song of Solomon. And so recently, I've read that book every year for like, the past four years really slowly. And I love that book because it teaches so well. There's so much in it to unpack, from the line, from, like the esthetics to the actual story arc to the characters, it's just really rich. So I like teaching that in theory. I like teaching Huck Finn Twain, okay, in a really long time, okay. Love that book, okay. Like, in terms of, like, canonical American literature that I like Huck Finn is, like, so bad, but also so smart and so good, and like, what he's doing with Jim and Huck on the river together, and then the way that Tom Sawyer comes in and ruins everything, like it just is such a good book that I think, you know, lots of people used to read it. I think in, like, middle school, high school, I don't know if they read it anymore.

Traci Thomas 28:56

I think some people do. I never did. I've never read it.

Eve Dunbar 28:59

We but I mean, it's got all the N word like problems, and maybe that's why people stopped reading it. It's a problem. I heard they reissued it with a clean version.

Traci Thomas 29:10

Yeah, I've heard they do that. And I've also heard, though there's, like, teachers who teach it, where they tell the students you can or cannot say it up to you. I'm like, what

Eve Dunbar 29:18

see, I'm terrible because I teach black lit and the N word is, like, all over, it's all in it. I pretty and it's to mix classes, right? I'm like, we're not going to say it, because I don't. I don't feel comfortable when people say it, when, like, white people say it. It's not a word that I necessarily use in my real life. I'm not opposed to people using it. Some of my best friends use it all the time. But you know, that said, I feel like, I don't think you can give people

Traci Thomas 29:48

a choice like you gotta, you gotta be in charge. If you're the teacher, yeah,

Eve Dunbar 29:52

you're causing trouble. You're, you're you're causing something. But anyway, Huck Finn is a book that, in theory, I would like to teach, but Morrison is more. Song is the book that I like have taught a lot lately, and love teaching it's, have

Traci Thomas 30:06

you read James yet, the new Percival, and I want to read that so good, I would love to know what you think about it, especially knowing that you have feelings about Huck Finn. Because I've never read Huck Finn. I just read James and just was, like, this book is brilliant, like, it is a brilliant retelling, because it stands fully on its own two feet. But I think if I'm sure when read it,

Eve Dunbar 30:30

yeah, what's out, maybe I'll read it before, Okay, before we talk again, yeah, yeah.

Traci Thomas 30:37

It's so good. You know, I'm currently this year, especially like reading a lot of like, canonical texts that I'd never read before. And I, last night, just finished The Handmaid's Tale, which I'd never read. And I am, I think if I was a teacher, I would love to teach that book. Have you read?

Eve Dunbar 30:54

I didn't watch the series. I

Traci Thomas 30:56

had watched the series, but I totally forgot most of it as I was reading it, a lot of things. I was like, Oh, yes, that is what the salvaging is, or whatever. Like, stray from the book they do. They have, like, four seasons. I think I stopped after season two. The first season is, seems pretty close to what I read, but I don't. I barely remember the show.

Eve Dunbar 31:19

That's so I never watched the show, because I was like, Do you need a show about this book? This book is pretty clear. The book is pretty

Traci Thomas 31:25

clear, yeah, but I liked it. I was surprised by how much I liked it as a book. I liked it as a book, but as soon as I started thinking about it, like, the moment that I closed the book and was like, thinking about what she had done, I was like, this is icky, yeah? Like it is, you mean, like, she basically just took the experiences of black and indigenous women in America and were like, okay, white ladies, like, what if this happened to you? And I just, I wish that she had interrogated that more, because it could have made the text richer, yeah. And also, like, the version that I had had this, like, forward, where she talks about Soviet, um, Germany, because that's where she was, I guess for a little bit she was, or she was in West Berlin, yeah, during, like, during the wall being up. And obviously she was born in 1939 so World War Two was formative in her life. And she gives those two things a lot of credit in the writing of the book. And I just was sort of like, okay, but also like, you didn't think at all about American slavery. Like you didn't think like, and that annoyed me, because I'm like, I can see all of these things in your work, and I just wish you would be either more reflective of what you've done, or more open about it, instead of trying to pretend like this is just about the Soviets, when I think that that shows up very clearly in a lot of the stuff with the men, but with the women, I'm like, That's they weren't doing that.

Eve Dunbar 32:53

Yeah. You know, that's so interesting. I mean, I hate to bring up Morrison again, but she has like, a book called playing in the dark, where she basically says, you know, the and I guess isn't at what a Canadian, but she is Canadian. Well, pretend she's an American writer, but Morrison's argument in playing in the dark is like, the problem with American literature is it is haunted by these africanisms. She calls Africanism, like, this kind of blackness that it doesn't know what to do with, and it can't see. And so what you're saying is basically, yeah, like, there's this whole history. And add to that indigenous, like, you know, there's this whole misuse of women's bodies. Yeah, that is part and parcel of the American settler colonial slave experience that people, many writers, pretend they don't know, yeah. Even though Yeah, it informs the whole it informs the nation. It's the foundation of the nation. The experiences are foundational to whiteness, but like, whiteness can't ever see it,

Traci Thomas 34:07

right? Anyway. So that's a book that I would like to teach. I feel if I was a teacher, I feel like,

Eve Dunbar 34:12

yeah, that would be a great book to teach. Yeah, there's so many good books to teach, yeah, actually, and and students, if they're open and having real, kind of real first time experiences. That's why I was, like, it's so cool that you haven't read jazz, because you're going to have, like, a real and it's sometimes hard to I mean, a second third reader is great. You have different experiences, but the first read is, like, a real, visceral, like, reaction.

Traci Thomas 34:38

Yeah,

Eve Dunbar 34:40

those are valuable.

Traci Thomas 34:41

Okay, we're gonna take a quick break, and then we'll be right back. Okay, we're back. We do a thing here called Ask the stacks. Someone writes in with a question, and then we have to give them a book recommendation. And I picked this before I even read your book, so I'm really. Excited, because I think it's gonna be a good one for you. It comes from Megan. And Megan says My mom is a fairly liberal white lady, but mostly reads mainstream fiction. Think Jojo Moyes and Frederick Bachmann, she's expressed interest in wanting to diversify her reading. Any suggestions for good books to help ease her into branching out of her comfort zone and maybe even a dip her toe into a nonfiction or two. Thanks in advance. So I came up with three. You can come up with anywhere between one and three. I can go first if you want. That would be great. Okay, so the first one I'm gonna pick, because this is a book about moms, and a book that I read with my mom, and I watched the movie with my mom, and I love this book, though I have not revisited it, and it might be a mess, but I think it's a great one. Is the Joy Luck Club by Amy Tan. I love that book. It's about four moms and their four daughters, and the moms are all immigrants from China, and it flashes back to like, their family's history, and then the daughters are all born in America, and it's like about them trying to be American in San Francisco, and the moms and the clashing and the first generation, blah, blah, blah, but they're almost like interconnected short stories. I actually think she originally wrote them short stories, and then they made her make it a novel. Anyways. So that's my first recommendation, a classic. I love it. My second recommendation is a book that I actually, personally do not love, but a lot of people do, and I think it might be a good ease in to reading books by I don't know about because I'm interpreting the question as, like, she wants to read books maybe about race, but, like, not about race. That's sort of how I interpret it. So I'm gonna go with Homegoing. By, yeah, Jesse, yeah.

Eve Dunbar 36:45

That's a great one. I really liked it.

Traci Thomas 36:47

I didn't it was a little 101, for me, it felt like very ya. To me, it's like Forrest Gump does, like transatlantic slave trade. To me, as a person who loves history and reads about, like, real books about American child slavery and history and like, all that stuff. It just felt a little bit like Disneyland does this, which might be great for MEGAN'S MOM. It's not a bad book. It just for me. I was a little bit like, Wow, guys, this is life changing for you. I don't know. So it's, I don't dislike the book. It's just not my favorite. And then for my nonfiction, I love this book, how the word is passed by Clint Smith. I think it's very approachable nonfiction about, like, how we honor, slash, memorialize history in this country. This one is specifically about American chattel slavery. But he goes to these different sites of, like, historic sites. So he goes to Angola prison and talks about, like, what, what it's like you can take a tour, and what that feels like. And he goes to a Confederate reenactment day, and, like, talks to people there. And he goes to some of the or one of the former slave markets in New York City. And, like, talks about, like, how, you know, slavery was in the north, and it's just like a really interesting book. It's really well written, very, a very smooth, easy read, not too challenging, but still, like, packed with history. So those would be my picks. What do you have?

Eve Dunbar 38:22

Huh? This is a tough question, I think, but I'm inspired by your Joy Luck Club to meet you with. And I always get her first name wrong. I want to say Paul Marshall. And the novel is called Brown Girl, brown stones. I don't know this, and it's, it's a really, it's like, probably from the what is it 70s or 80s, or something like that, but it's about immigrant experience right in to New York, and it's all about the tensions between being first generation and having parents as immigrants. And I think a lot of people can relate to that experience, if they and because this person is identified as white, they probably, I don't. I'm presuming that they came here, not on the Mayflower, but even that was a boat. You know that immigrant experience is probably close at hand, and I find, like, you know, mainstream white people like to read immigrant experiences. Yeah, that would be one. And then, as you were talking, I'm not great with nonfiction, but I was thinking of Colson Whitehead's nickel boys, which is really depressing. I love that book, but, yeah, but also, I think, especially if you're suggesting something to a mom, to kind of really, to have an emotional read. But also. Have, like, the historical reality of race and incarceration and child incarceration, and it brought to the fore, that's a great book for that. Yeah, I would recommend that. I

Traci Thomas 40:15

love that. That's a good I need to reread that. My book really took my breath away. I remember reading that and being like, holy shit, yeah,

Eve Dunbar 40:22

because it's based on a true story, you're just like, oh my god, America sucks

Traci Thomas 40:28

the worst.

Eve Dunbar 40:31

But, and it's sad, you have to be so resilient like that. We require young people to become so resilient, and or not, and, and, you know, like, yeah, that would be, I feel like that could make for good conversation between, you know, mother and and daughter. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 40:49

okay. I love it. Megan, tell us what your mom thinks. You have to let us know if she reads any of these. Everyone else, if you want to have something read on the air, email, ask the stacks at the stacks podcast.com and we will do this with our next guest. All right, Eve, now it's time to talk about your the books of your life, two books you love, one book you hate. Oh,

Eve Dunbar 41:10

two books I love, yeah, well, just because I've been reading it all the time and I've grown to love it is more since Song of Solomon, and the other book that I love is a little book, and I write about this Gwendolyn Brooks's novella novel. It's a tiny little book, Maud Martha, which is just really a sweet rendering of this young black girls growth from childhood to womanhood as she kind of navigates what it means to come of age and be dark. She's dark skinned, the dark skinned, smart black girl, and face the limits of that, but also, like I said, be resilient and kind of thrive and live within the kind of small space of life afforded you. How do you make that your own? And I just find that really, not just inspiring, but also, yeah, just heartwarming. So those are two books that I love.

Traci Thomas 42:13

What about a book you hate? You know, this

Eve Dunbar 42:16

one is a I like. I tell my students, you know, I can read anything, right? Give me something terrible, and I'll still have something to say about it. So, actually hard, but I like Searching the Depths of my experience remembering a book. And I say this because I will start books and then just stop reading them, and maybe that's it's not always because I don't like them. It's just they, I don't have time. They don't stick for me. But a book that I had like a real reaction to when I read it for the first time was, oddly enough, Benjamin Franklin's autobiography.

Traci Thomas 42:56

Really, what was it that?

Eve Dunbar 42:58

Oh my god, I hated that book, and I hated the presumption of Benjamin Franklin, like, who, if you've ever read it, it's, I had to read it for college in an American Lit course. But he starts by saying, you know, I'm basically, I'm a pretty famous guy, and never heard of me. He's writing it supposedly to his son. And he's like, and so, you know, because I've had this great life, I feel like I have things to teach everybody, and you about, like, how to live a great life. And, you know, and this is how it starts. And I remember, like, being in class, and just like, my arm goes up as soon as the professor, like, opens conversation, and I'm basically like this, he sucks. How dare he think that the only people who have worthy stories are successful white men, basically, or just, the only thing that makes a story worthy is success, right? And, you know, it's kind of an up from the bootstraps narrative, but the the rationale of writing was so offensive to me, so I would say that's the kind of book I hate where there's no kind of ability on the part of the writer to recognize other people's experiences, and what makes other people's experiences, even if they lack, like, fiscal, political success, worthy of telling and us listening to that really, like, makes me want to vomit.

Traci Thomas 44:36

I love, I love this book as I hate. This is a good one. What's the last really great book you've read.

Eve Dunbar 44:42

You know, I might should be embarrassed to say this, but the last book that I like. I mean, I read many good books, but one of the books that really stuck with me was tarte's goldfinch.

Traci Thomas 44:58

I don't Oh, I never read that. That one's super polarizing.

Eve Dunbar 45:01

I know I like, I really loved it, and I consider it outside of my readings zone, which, you know, everything I read is good and important, but it's one of those books that I think about a lot still, like I have a whole reading of of what's the Biden Hunter Biden that's based on, on the goldfinch.

Traci Thomas 45:28

Have you read Hunter Biden's memoir? No, okay, so I never, ever thought I would ever read it. I had no idea he had one. I didn't either. But last year, when I did my like live tour, Samantha Irby talked about how incredible it is. She's like, it is so fucking crazy and, like, so good and so compelling. So it is on my list of books to read. Wow. She, like, talks about how he has like, this, like, relationship with this woman, but it's basically like, they're in a relationship because of their addiction. And it's like, all, I don't know she, she really sold it to me, and I have to go back and read it. And, yeah,

Eve Dunbar 46:04

that's yeah, I can only imagine. I Yeah. I mean, who would publish it? But of course, they publish it. Of

Traci Thomas 46:11

course they would. They'll publish anything.

Eve Dunbar 46:13

I know, so, yeah, that's wild. I had no idea. I'll have to, like, I don't know if I can bring myself to read it.

Traci Thomas 46:20

I'll read it and let you know. But if you have a whole Hunter Biden Biden theory, it might be enlightening too, because it might add so you can really grow your theory so that next time you're at a dinner party, you can, like, really spin it out. You know, yeah, it'll be a good performance piece for you. That's what I like to do. I like to come up with theories and then read things to try to reinforce my theory, so that when I'm out in public, I can, like, have something to talk about,

Eve Dunbar 46:42

make it work, yeah, test

Traci Thomas 46:45

it on an audience. What are you reading right now? And can you read multiple books at a time? And do you listen to audiobooks?

Eve Dunbar 46:55

I am reading all fours right of July, yeah. And I'm like, maybe a third of the way through, so I haven't gotten it's just starting to get a little raunchy, okay? And, and the reason I'm reading it is because I was listening to another podcast and they were recommending it. And so I which

Traci Thomas 47:20

podcast? VOD, check. Oh, yeah, of course, yeah, those, all three of those guys have been on the show, like, Yeah, this is a raunchy book. And I was like, Sam loved it,

Eve Dunbar 47:32

so that's why I'm reading it. And I do listen to audiobooks. I love audiobooks. And one of the reasons I do love audiobooks is because during the school year, I'm reading what I'm reading to teach so I can read. I'm paid to read multiple books because I'm teaching multiple classes. I'm always reading multiple books at the same time. But I love listening to audiobooks because they allow me to keep up with like popular fiction or what's what's contemporary fiction, whatever is out now, when my reading for work is not is not contemporary. So it allows me access to whatever's happening in the moment in like literary culture. So I love them. And I don't know if you have this do you listen audiobooks? I do, yeah, you find like, because I grew up reading hard book covers, I kind of think spatially so I can remember, Oh yeah, that happened in the first book, or that happened in the middle, or that was on the left hand side of the page, or that right hand. So I can orient myself in a really physical way with a physical book, and I find like I have no idea where I am, no clue, no idea. Yeah, that's the only downside

Traci Thomas 48:52

I have, that I can't really do fiction on audio. Fiction is really hard for me on audio nonfiction, like if you give me a memoir on audio. I'll do it in a day. I'll just buckle down and just listen to the whole thing, because it's like someone's talking to me with fiction. Sometimes, I'm like, Wait, who said that? Wait, what was that person again? Because I have no frame of reference, because it's not a real person, whereas, like with the memoir, I'm like, Okay, this is the author. This is the author's mom. Like, I can orient everything around this one person, or like I can do like history or real life events and stuff too. But I really struggle with fiction on audio, unless it's like a very small cast, very tight, close to life story. But I also have the thing where I could I I'm pretty visual, and so having a book, like, I can tell you exactly where on the page a thing happened, or, like, I don't even always use a bookmark. Sometimes I just remember, like, the page, like, I'll just remember the page number and I'll just remember the paragraph. I would love

Eve Dunbar 49:53

to read a study or hear somebody talk about that, that, yeah, what? What makes some. People kind of relate to the physical copy of the book in that way, in a way everybody do that. I

Traci Thomas 50:05

don't know. I don't know. I'm so curious. I hope people will tell me, if you do this, people listening, DM me or whatever, let me know I'm very curious, because I've always done it, but I've never heard anyone else mention it. So I just thought I was weird. No, I'm

Eve Dunbar 50:18

like, for a minute, when I was a kid, I was like, I must have a photographic memory.

Traci Thomas 50:22

That's what I thought, Oh my gosh. Well, the reason I organized my books by color is because I used to not and then when I started the shop, I was getting so many books in, and I couldn't remember authors names or titles, but I could remember what a book looked like. So sometimes I'd be like, oh, oh, the titles, whatever. And then I'd be like, but I have no clue who writes it like, and it's just easy, like, oh, but that book was hot pink. Like, I remember it was that hot pink book. Or like, oh, it was that gray book. And it's easier for me to find things this way than it is alphabetically, because I can't, I can't remember all these people

Eve Dunbar 50:55

well, you know, I I have a more chaotic book organization than yours, because I do separate my books by, like, fiction or kind of creative, and then critical, that's the that's my separator on my and then a loose alphabetical, but, like, not really, because who can be bothered right? So it really is like, Okay, I remember I put that on the top shelf or that somewhere in the middle, and then I'm just looking color coding might be

Traci Thomas 51:27

useful. Color works for me, but then people always treat me like I've never like. They treat me like I'm illiterate. They're like, people are so mean to people who organize by color. I'm like, You know what? Fuck you. They're my books. I would never tell you to organize your like a public library by color. That's crazy, but, like,

Eve Dunbar 51:45

referencing this library, then it works for me. But I'm, like, I have a chaotic method that's, like, I said, really dependent on critical versus, yeah, creative. And then that makes

Traci Thomas 51:58

sense. No, that makes a lot of sense. Um, what's a, what's the last really good book someone recommended to you,

Eve Dunbar 52:04

the last really good book that I got recommended? I mean, I want to say all four, because the last book that and I like, it's interesting to me. It wasn't recommended just to me, right? But I would probably say, oddly, home going was a book that a colleague of mine really liked and recommended, and I read and enjoyed. I think your critique is, is a good one. Now, of that, of that novel,

Traci Thomas 52:41

thank you. Nobody agrees with me, or nobody ever compliments my critique.

Eve Dunbar 52:45

I think maybe I liked it because I thought I could teach this. This would be to teach because of, you know, it would be easily accessible and tied to historical like, yeah,

Traci Thomas 52:55

yeah. Do you have a favorite bookstore?

Eve Dunbar 52:57

Um, you know, yes, I really like book people in Austin, mostly because that was a when I was in graduate school, that was the bookstore. But you know, the reality is, I go to Barnes because I live in a small city, and that's they don't have a

Traci Thomas 53:17

indie. Yeah, yeah. What's the last book that made you laugh? Quang,

Eve Dunbar 53:23

yellow face. I really liked that book.

Traci Thomas 53:28

A lot You did. I was medium on it.

Eve Dunbar 53:30

I don't know what I was coming off of. I was like this. This is such interesting storytelling, right in terms of writing from that perspective, yes, of a thief, really, yeah, and like, compelling you to kind of Yes. I had to catch myself all the time and say, But wait a minute, she's done this terrible thing. Yes, like, I do want her to get caught. Or, you know, like, I don't want her to get, you know, like, just, it was, it was, for me, really interesting challenge for not just ethics, but like as a reader, like, yes, hold your narrator at a distance, like an unreliable, you know, whatever narrator. And like the when somebody can really capture a reader as an unreliable narrator, it's amazing. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 54:32

I agree. What about a last book that made you cry?

Eve Dunbar 54:37

Oh, I keep saying Song of Solomon. But the only thing that's funny about this is, like, I taught it maybe last fall, and I we were, I was in class, and I started crying in class, which is like the worst. And I was just like, Guys, I'm so sorry. We were. Reading the there's a funeral scene for a character, Hagar, and one of the main characters gives what amounts to a eulogy, and it's about Hagar being loved, and she was and she just repeats this line, and she was loved, and she was loved. And like, I just started class, and I realized after the fact, which is always awkward, crying in public, yeah, and people having to see you cry in public, not good. And it took me a while to get over it. And I kept texting my friends whenever they would say this bad thing happened to me. I was like, but at least you didn't cry in your spirit. And everybody had to shake

Unknown Speaker 55:47

their head, like, that's the worst. You win.

Eve Dunbar 55:49

You win. But that particular scene is just so, like, powerful, and I had been up all night grading papers, so like, the thin membrane between emotional life and the classroom was, like threadbare

Traci Thomas 56:07

I'm obsessed with this. What's a book that brings you joy?

Eve Dunbar 56:14

I think that the book that I always go back to in love, and perhaps just because I'm thinking about Morrison, is Morrison Sula, which is, yeah, I just, it's so sad, but it's also so wonderful about the possibility of friendship. And, you know, how do you come back around and what, what's lost if you can't and like what it means to be present for somebody in your life and bound to them, you know. So I just love that book it. I don't know if joy is the right word, but love is the right word.

Traci Thomas 56:57

I like that. Are there any books that you're embarrassed that you still have not read.

Eve Dunbar 57:04

You know, my whole life is based on trying to make sure I read the things that embarrass me. So most recent one that I was embarrassed I had not read was Nabokov's Lolita, simply because, like everybody's always making like, comments about Lolita. This is like, Lolita. This is like, Lolita. And so for a long time, I don't know why I never read it. I just never read it. And, like, maybe a summer or two ago, I was like, I'm going to read Lolita. And

Traci Thomas 57:34

you did it.

Eve Dunbar 57:35

I did read it. I did you like it. You know, it's another I think I'm, like, susceptible to unreliable narrators. I

Traci Thomas 57:43

love an unreliable narrator. Yeah?

Eve Dunbar 57:45

I mean, he's terrible, and yet you read and you read and you read and so, yeah, I did. I did enjoy it, even though I know, as a feminist and as a woman and as a human like, he's despicable, yeah, and I'm compelled by writers who can make you keep reading despicable people. I love

Traci Thomas 58:07

that. Do you speaking of despicable people? Do you have a problematic favorite?

Eve Dunbar 58:10

You know, for me, in my subfield of literature, at some points in time, the problematic favorite is Richard Wright, who wrote Native Son. And I like him. I think that book is problematic. What he does to black women is terrible, kind of but I think he's capturing what America does to black women. But what I like about that novel, up until the last book, the first two books are just so, like, he understands plot driven, yeah, yeah. And so like that plot is moving, and there's a murder and, you know, murder face, yeah, it's just got all the elements.

Traci Thomas 58:51

Can I tell you that I was assigned that book and read that book in middle school? Isn't that insane? Yeah, I didn't even realize I've never gone back to it. But I remember the first book. I remember part one being like, this is the greatest thing I've ever read in my entire life. I don't remember parts two and three, or whatever. So there's a chance I never finished. You

Eve Dunbar 59:13

might not, if you you, you might have finished two, because that's when he's on the lam on the road. I definitely

Traci Thomas 59:19

read that. Yeah. And then I don't remember

Unknown Speaker 59:25

running into I vaguely remember

Traci Thomas 59:27

that in my brain, it's two parts, the part I liked and then the end. But it's insane to have seventh graders read that book.

Eve Dunbar 59:36

That's inappropriate, isn't that crazy? I

Traci Thomas 59:39

know I was just telling a friend the other day, I was like, I'm pretty sure we read this in middle school. I remember it being middle school because I was at a different school than I was in high school, and I remember reading it on that campus.

Eve Dunbar 59:49

That's crazy. It's like, no murder.

Traci Thomas 59:52

Really crazy. Yeah,

Eve Dunbar 59:54

double murder. Yeah, yeah. That's a lot. I mean, I feel that. Way about more since beloved. I have students who have read more assigned more since beloved in in high school. And I just feel like, unless you have somebody, and some of them have had, they're like, We had a great teacher, and we read it over, like a term or whatever, like, fine. But I think you I don't know if you assign I couldn't

Traci Thomas 1:00:18

read it as an adult. I don't know that I'll ever be able to do it, like, I mean, like, I just don't know that I'm smart enough for it. It just was, like, it's a lot, it's not

Eve Dunbar 1:00:27

smart, but it's a it's a lot. And I do think I just don't know how you give teenagers that book. There's so many books like that, though, there's,

Traci Thomas 1:00:35

I mean, especially for that one, because it's like, there's no it's, I think it's probably really hard for teenagers to relate to Seth, that at all, yeah, like, it's like, you're not a mom, you've never been enslaved, like you've never had to make those kinds of choices. That's true. And I just think that, like, sometimes for young people, it's nice to have a point of entry, like, there's just no point of entry to that book for a lot of young people, I would assume I read it before I was a mom, and I really struggled with it. Like, I think that, and not that you couldn't read it if you're not a mom, certainly, but like, I just think having had some life experience probably helps with I

Eve Dunbar 1:01:19

am I read it. I think I was assigned it in college, and I remember hating it, you know, like I thought Morrison was showy, but, but I had a terrible teacher of that novel. And I think it requires, like, real teaching. And I think all of Morrison's work requires real Yeah, yeah.

Traci Thomas 1:01:41

But I think some of them are, like, Sula is a much easier entry point for young people,

Eve Dunbar 1:01:49

like experienced and probably the most intense friendships you have are when you're in

Traci Thomas 1:01:54

at that age exactly, or like The Bluest Eye. There's an entry point for that for young people, I think beloved feels like a reach for a 15 year old or an 18 year old even like, it's just like, how,

Eve Dunbar 1:02:07

yeah, I had no capacity for it, and then had to go back after like, yeah, I don't even know, not living. I read it before kids too, but not living right, yeah,

Traci Thomas 1:02:17

yeah. I don't think kids. History, history, yeah, history. I don't even think it's kids. I think it's more just like having to have made difficult choices, having to be in a situation where you feel that, like the weight of the world is on your shoulders, and there's no like feeling stuck, like all of I think, I don't know. Anyways, okay, we went way over. I have one more question for you, and then we're done. Sorry. I didn't even realize the time. Okay, I this from the New York Times by the book. But if you could require the current president of the United States to read one book, what would it

Eve Dunbar 1:02:50

be the current president?

Traci Thomas 1:02:51

Yeah, Joe.

Eve Dunbar 1:02:53

Joe. Hmm, I think that I would probably, you know, I would like to see Joe Biden read, and I'd like to talk to him about Their Eyes Were Watching. God, I feel like his whole spiel that they keep kind of rehashing is his relationship to loss and and how that makes him an empath, empathetic person, and I would like to see how far that runs for him. And I feel like Their Eyes Were Watching God is a book that would challenge not the limits of empathy at all, but like would could produce maybe a good conversation about what it means to kind of really see black women, I feel like, especially now with Kamala taking the reins, all of the discourses about, like, how he has been this book, and this president who ushered in Barack Obama and brought us, yes, Kamala and so there's, like, this real, like, discursive push to see him as this great white savior, yeah, great white like, ushering the nation into their race era. Like, okay, let's see how that looks like. What? What would you do with with a book that's about, like, not even about white people at all, but about black people falling in love and out of love. Like, what do you have to say? What, where? What are the limits of your empathy? What, Where does How do you relate?

Traci Thomas 1:04:32

Oh, my God. Okay. This is a brilliant idea. We will record this for the stacks you and Joe, and we will release it as a bonus episode. You can book

Eve Dunbar 1:04:39

it. I would love to, okay,

Traci Thomas 1:04:42

he's gonna be retired very soon. Maybe in February, he'll want to take a break. Maybe come spring, we'll be able to put this that would be hilarious.

Eve Dunbar 1:04:52

I would love, I would love to see him talk.

Traci Thomas 1:04:55

Would actually be such an amazing podcast to have. Of like, perfect, like. Professors and writers doing book clubs with politicians.

Eve Dunbar 1:05:04

Oh my gosh, it would probably be infuriating. It would

Traci Thomas 1:05:07

probably be infuriating for you, but it would probably be such an incredible listening experience for like, you'd have to sacrifice your we would rotate. It would be like a different a different literary person, a different politician. You have to, you know, it's a service to the country to do these episodes, but I would listen like think about you could do something incredible on like immigration with Barack Obama. What

Eve Dunbar 1:05:31

was like with Trump? What would you have Trump read? So

Traci Thomas 1:05:34

what's interesting about this podcast is I've been doing it since the Trump presidency and so early people all the way through 2020, into 2021, they were recommending books for Trump, and now it's Joe Biden, and hopefully it'll be Kamala. And I'm curious to see how those recommendations change next year. If that's the case, a lot of the Trump answers were sort of like flip like, Can he even read? I'd have him read the Constitution, whatever. You know, I think, I think I might want to do a book about, like, grief with Trump.

Eve Dunbar 1:06:08

I don't, can he prop can you? I don't

Traci Thomas 1:06:10

know that. I don't know. Yeah, or else, or else. Maybe I would do like, the total flip and do something like American Psycho with him, and like, see how he interprets a con man, scam artist, murderer, crazy like, I might go to totally, like, lean into, like, all the things that we think that he is, and see if he can see it and how he interprets it.

Eve Dunbar 1:06:36

Love to i that would either be really eye opening, or very short. I would love to, could be

Traci Thomas 1:06:43

a micro pod. I would love to listen to that conversation

Eve Dunbar 1:06:46

because, I mean, he just issued some crazy, well, some statement about how he used, like, he's hot and so, I mean, and I've not read American cycle, but I watched the movie. I

Traci Thomas 1:07:00

loved that book that's also unreliable narrator. Oh, really, I'm pretty sure it's told from his perspective. I read it years ago. I read it like 15 years ago, so I can't quite remember, but I'm in my mind, it is, it's, it's really good. I know that he's a problem, but I guess, but it's good book. Yes, I don't know much about him. I know people don't like him. Yeah, I'm like, you know, I come to this work not as, like, deep into the literary world. It kind of some like, I just loved reading. I was like, let's make a podcast. So I don't know a lot of, like, canonical texts. I don't know a lot of history about a lot of the authors like and I sort of like it that way, because then I can read the thing and try to understand why it's a thing. I know people hate him now. I think he's an asshole and, like, has really bad, like, poor white man politics, right? Isn't he the one who's, like, white people can't write anything anymore, like, he's got that whole thing. But back before he was doing that, when he was writing American Psycho, it was working for him, because it dropped him right into Patrick Bateman, I think is a character's name, and Christian Bale was so hot in that movie. That's

Eve Dunbar 1:08:05

what I'm saying. Like, I feel like Trump would watch the movie and then talk about how he and Christian Bale are similarly

Traci Thomas 1:08:13

and that would be an incredible podcast episode, and I would die to listen to that. So we've got a new show on our hands. Eve, I love this for us. First of all, thank you everybody. We have to pre order Monstrous Work and Radical Satisfaction because it comes out November 5. I will, of course, remind you all when that book comes out, but we need to pre order it to support Eve's work and thank her for coming on the show before the book is out. But she will be back on September 25 for our discussion of jazz by Toni Morrison, there will be spoilers, people, so read it. You've got four weeks. Come back ready to talk. It's a short one. It's only like two something. So you can do this. A lot happens. A lot happens. Thank you so much. Eve. This was awesome. Thank you, Traci. Have a great day, and everyone else, we will see you in The Stacks.

All right, y'all that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening, and thank you again to Eve Dunbar for being our guest. I'd also like to say a huge thank you to friend of the show, kiase layman, for helping to make this conversation possible. Don't forget to listen on September 25 when Eve Dunbar returned to discuss our September book club, pick jazz by Toni Morrison, if you love the show and want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/the stacks and join the stacks. Pack and check out my sub stack. Traci Thomas, dot sub stack.com. Make sure to subscribe to the stacks. Or if you listen to your podcasts, and if you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, be sure to leave us a rating and a review for more from the stacks. Follow us on social media, at the stacks pod on Instagram, threads and Tiktok and at the stacks pod underscore on Twitter, and you can check out our website at the stacks podcast.com this episode of the stacks was edited by Christian Duenas, with production assistance from Lauren Tyree and Megan Caballero. Our graphic designer is Robin Mccright, and our theme music is from tigeragis. The stacks is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

]]>Ep. 335 This Thing Called Satisfaction with Eve DunbarEp. 334 Master Slave Husband Wife by Ilyon Woo — The Stacks Book Club (Jay Ellis)Stacks AssistantWed, 28 Aug 2024 07:00:00 +0000https://www.thestackspodcast.com/2024/08/28/ep-334-master-slave-husband-wife65d2b7a49de6215855aa3aaa:66084694f1e135566828a41a:66ce3fb870ee23226f70dd6e

It’s The Stacks Book Club Day, and we’re discussing Master Slave Husband Wife by Ilyon Woo. We’re joined by actor and author Jay Ellis to explore the story of The Crafts, a husband-and-wife duo who escaped slavery by pretending to be a white man and his slave in 1848. We discuss why we think this story fell out of the collective consciousness, how the horrors of slavery are often minimized, and the complicated nature of familial relationships in the midst of chattel slavery. 

Be sure to listen to the end of today’s episode to find out what our next book club pick will be.

LISTEN NOW

Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Google Podcasts | Overcast | Stitcher | Transcript

  

Everything we talk about on today’s episode can be found below in the show notes and on Bookshop.org and Amazon.

To support The Stacks and find out more from this week’s sponsors, click here.

Connect with Jay: Instagram | Twitter | Website
Connect with The Stacks: Instagram | Twitter | Shop | Patreon | Goodreads | Substack | Subscribe

To contribute to The Stacks, join The Stacks Pack, and get exclusive perks, check out our Patreon page. If you prefer to support the show with a one time contribution go to paypal.me/thestackspod.

The Stacks participates in affiliate programs. We receive a small commission when products are purchased through links on this website.

TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Traci Thomas 0:08

Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Traci Thomas, and today we are joined once again, by our actor and author friend Jay Ellis. Jay is here to help me discuss the stacks of book club, pick of Master Slave Husband Wife, by Ilyon Woo this book is an incredibly thorough and engaging masterwork of nonfiction. It won the Pulitzer this year for biography, and it tells the true story of William and Ellen Kraft, a married enslaved couple who escaped North from 1848 Georgia to freedom by pretending to be a white slave master and his manservant, the book covers the kinds of hurdles and opposition they encounter along their way, plus their experiences in the north, dealing with all sorts of different abolitionists. In addition to talking about the plot of this book, Jay and I also talked about the way sexism and colorism show up in this story, how little history we learned as kids and so much more. Please note, there are some minor spoilers on this episode. Make sure to listen through to the end of this episode to find out what our September book club pick will be. Quick reminder, everything we talk about on each episode of the stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. And if you love this show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/the stacks and join the stacks. Pack it is just $5 a month, and you get to be part of the best bookish community that has ever existed in the history of books. That is a fact that has not been fact checked, but it is a feeling more than anything. You get to come to our monthly virtual book club meetups. You get to be part of our Discord community. You get bonus episodes, and you also get to know that by joining the stacks pack for just $5 a month, you make it possible for me to make this show every single week. Another fun perk of the stacks pack is that you get a shout out on this very podcast. So thank you to Kelly at Spock, Lindsay Thomas, Jennifer Odom, Elaine, Wu Elizabeth Miller, Shelly Kinsey, Sarah Kozlowski, and C nesrac. And for those of you listening now who love the show, who want to support my work, but don't really want to be part of a community and have to go to a virtual book club and all that stuff, you can support the work of the show. Find out what's going on, what I've got coming up in the works, what I'm into, pop culture wise, if you go to my newsletter at Traci thomas.substack.com and subscribe, go straight to your inbox. No community necessary. Thank you so much to everyone who makes this show possible. Okay, now it is time for my conversation with Jay Ellis about Master Slave Husband Wife by Ilyon Woo reminder, there are minor spoilers on this episode.

All right, everybody, it is the stacks book club day. I'm so excited. I am joined again by author, actor all around, stand up, human being. Jay Ellis, welcome back to the stacks.

Jay Ellis 2:58

Thank you so much for having me. I love being an all around what did you say? Amazing human being? Stand up. Stand up. Human I love it.

Traci Thomas 3:05

Yeah, we love a stand up. It's an illustrious guest. It's the same vibe. You know, gotta, gotta come up with a different way of saying people are wonderful. Because I only have wonderful people here. That's not true. I've had some duds. You're not one. Okay? We're doing book club. We're talking about Master Slave Husband Wife, an epic journey from slavery to freedom, by Ilyon Woo, which was the 2024, co Pulitzer Prize winner in biography. It won alongside king by Jonathan AG, eg, AG, I don't know. I gonna have to get done one day. AG, I'm gonna go with AG, but I think so it's not easy. It's not easy, and it's not 100% on that. Okay, before we even dive in, I'm gonna give a quick synopsis for people listening to this episode. This is a non fiction book. It is history that took place starting in 1848 however, it's sort of a forgotten history. So there will be spoilers to this story on this episode, but also the information is in the world. It happened a long time ago, so don't fight me. Okay, so it's the story of Ellen and William craft, who are two people who are enslaved in Macon, Georgia, and they are a married couple. They decide this is not the life we want, because slavery is hell, and they decide to escape to the north. Ellen is half black, half white, by rape from her father who raped her mother, who was enslaved. He is her previous owner. She's currently owned by her half sister. She flees with William. She is disguised as a young man, young gentleman, an ill young gentleman. Yup, they take the train. Oh, and he is pretending to be her slave, so that hence now we've already got master slave and has. And wife spoiler. They take the they go by foot, they go by train, they go by carriage, they go by boat. They make their way all the way north to Philadelphia. Guess what? It's not safe there. Go to Boston. Boston, they're free ish. But for those of you who know your history, you might be familiar with the Fugitive Slave Act, which means anybody can go up to any black person and say, You're my slave, my slave, back down. You go, yeah, yeah, let's let me take you back down south. So then eventually they decide, still not safe. There's, there's some historical drama that happens. They're still not safe. Come 1850 they leave again. They go north, they go to Canada, and then they go to England, and along the way they make a bunch of abolitionist friends. It's really a who's who of 1848 to 1865 political political leaders. So that's basically the premise of the book. We always start here, which is just sort of generally, what did you think of the book, Jay?

Jay Ellis 6:02

I found myself feeling, for lack of a better phrase, dumb because I didn't know this story. I found myself to be honest, like, inspired in some ways, by like, their like, ingenuity, like, there's like, there's just so many things. First of all, this man saved money to then buy clothes to then play these characters, right? I don't there's just so many things. There's also these moments of like, you know, there's moments of like, I feel like, there were times where, like, my heartbeat would be race like, pounding, like, are they gonna get? Like, Philadelphia, I think it's such a great example of that story, like, are they gonna the first time they get on the train and somebody recognizes her, yes, and she plays deaf. Like, there were so many moments where I was like, oh my god, is this where they get caught? Like, what happened? And then what happened from here and anyway to have not known this story, and have been introduced to this story in this way, and have gotten a chance to read about it, and now go do my own digging. I just, I love this book. I feel like this is something that should be taught in history.

Traci Thomas 7:07

Yes, yes, okay, I agree with everything you've said. I want to come back to why we don't know this story, like why this story was lost history, because I have some questions about that. But overall, really impressed with the book, like the level of research and detail and the way that she takes it and then turns it into narrative. So it does feel like pulse pounding, like, what's gonna happen when there's a whole totally different version of this book that is like in 1848 like, and it's just like stale. I do wish a little bit that the author had contextualized some like, like, historical opinions. Like, I wanted her to go, like, a little deeper on, like, some of the colorism stuff, because it's obviously so at play in the book. But she doesn't, like, fully dig in. And I just was like, there were moments where I was like, what would a regular, degular person think about this thing like, so there was a little bit of parts where I was just like, I want you to tell me more. Like, I know, you know, because you're an academic. Like, help me figure out what I'm supposed to think. I wanted the answers. And I definitely think the escape part in the beginning was my favorite part. Like, the first third of the book is so good, and then the middle third I liked a lot, because I liked hearing about the different arguments around abolition and like, the different politicians. And then the third part was my least favorite. I was a little bored in Europe.

Jay Ellis 8:31

Oh, let them have their life.

I Yeah. But I was like, I'm tired of them going around with Williams Wells Brown. I'm like, okay, like this trio, I don't know. It's not master, slave, husband, wife, and then French, the other William,

other William, and with William too.I will say, I agree with you. I think the the escape was, was crazy, crazy. The middle, the middle section for me is actually really interesting. Like, the middle of the book for me is actually really interesting because, uh, actually really interesting, because they become celebrities, right? Like they become and I just they become celebrities, but technically, they're still on the run. But so, like, there's this very interesting thing of, like, you know, there's that story which actually happens in Boston wildly enough, where, like, the community puts arms around them. I think it was in Boston where this happened, and the community puts arms around them, and they're like, No, we're saving them. Like, no, we're keeping them. I think that was in Boston. It was in Philly. I think it was when they got to Boston, right? Boston? Yeah, oh yes, because the because they're the slave owner, had sent someone to go get them, yeah, and so, I don't know, I just even thinking of, like, a community of people, even at this time with this act out there, deciding that they were going to put their arms like around this, this, this couple, and say, like, no, they are free. We are going to hide them and save them. And then from there them, obviously realizing that, like, they would never technically be safe, they still needed to leave, which is ultimately was sent them to Europe. I don't know that middle section, to me, was really interesting, too. I think the colorism thing is also this really great conversation that you're right. Like, what did that mean for him?

Traci Thomas 10:08

Okay, let's, let's talk about this. I was gonna talk about this later, but I want to talk about, we will come back to the beginning of the book, but I really want to talk about the way that Ellen and William are portrayed. Yeah, to us through the author, because there are so many times where, like, she will say, like, William took credit for the escape, but maybe it was actually Ellen. And I'm like, Well, why are you saying that? Why are you saying maybe it was Ellen? If all the documentation that you have is saying that it's William, is it because William is, like, a darker skinned black person, and like, there's so many not. I'm not suggesting that the author feels that way, but I'm just suggesting that, like, the the text that she's relying on is clearly giving her a sense that William wasn't smart enough. Like and there's a part where the etzland family that they're with in England, yeah, refers to him as, like, crass and like a showman. And everybody loves Ellen the most, and Ellen's always ranked the highest, and Ellen is so funny, and Ellen is so smart, and then it's just like, and Ellen is so beautiful. Oh my god. Ellen is so beautiful, you guys, she's so beautiful. How could anyone think this beauty? She's like, one of us, like the conversation around Ellen versus the way that William is any like, there's even a part where, at the end, where they're like, Ellen and William Brown, William Wells Brown, like, might have been having an affair, and it's just like, but the other William is an idiot, like, and I'm like, But wait, maybe other William is, Like, a cool dude and like, maybe, maybe Ellen is having an affair, like,

Jay Ellis 11:45

exist, right?

Traci Thomas 11:46

Yeah, Ellen can be so beautiful and so perfect, and also, maybe she betrayed their marriage, yeah, you'd like, I just did it. Did you feel that too? Like there would be these moments where Ellen, like, gets so much generosity and, like, anytime anything said about William, it's like, William,

Jay Ellis 12:07

it's him. Yeah, I think it's really interesting. You know what it made me think of, and this is a bit tangent, also, just go with me for a second. But it made me think of the story of Bass Reeves, and how, like, bass, Reeves ultimately got portrayed as the Lone Ranger, because there is no way in the world that this black man could have done those things. You know what I mean? It's easier to believe and make up this character. It's easier to believe that that he arrested 220 700 people, or 2350 people at one time, or whatever it is. It's easier to believe it if you do one of two things, you either make it magical or right? You change him, and you change his race. And I think, like that is the story of Bass Reeves, which we know is like the inspiration for the Lone Ranger. And I think when you look at the history and the stories that are told about Bass Reeves, it's always in this way of like you have to he's so magical, he's so superhuman, because there's no way that he could do it unless he's that right? But the people that are telling us those stories don't look like him, so the right? And I think that to your point, the historical text of the time that are being used for the research and in this book are written by people who don't look like William, and it's easier to accept or allow, I think, Ellen, to your point, to have the glory, to be so beautiful, to be so elegant, to be all of the things in that time. But yeah, I totally picked up on that.

Traci Thomas 13:39

It's just it's so interesting, because even when there's moments where it's like, the contemporaneous text says William takes credit for the plan, we still get paragraphs that it's like, but was it really William, right? And I'm like, Well, I don't know. I mean, if you're telling me all this other stuff from this text, then I have to assume, if I'm gonna believe all of that, then shouldn't I also believe that William came up with this plan and and I do think, like, I think, you know, part of it is that, like, the story changes throughout time, and then the beginning it's both of them, and then later it's just William. And you know, you know how that is, like the stories change in life, like, if you're telling a story, and depending on the audience and all changes. But I just found that part really interesting, and how it's always like, oh, Ellen was so quick on her feet. And it's like, well, William was right there too. Like William was helping, making these things happen, too. And I just I found that really interesting because it also makes me think, like, if the roles, I guess, not exactly, but like, if it was possible for Ellen to have been darker skinned and still pulled this off, would we think like her witty little jokes? Would she still get to be considered, like, so witty and so funny, or would it be like she's rude, like she's a bitch, like she's a black woman who doesn't know her play? And she's making, like, I can't and I think also, like, I was reading this over the last week, and we're recording this at the beginning of August, and it's like, now Kamala Harris is the nominee. And like, when we recorded the first episode with you, Joe Biden, we still are not like, there's so much as, I mean, you've become a dad to a second pair, like, there's your book has come out. So much has changed since we lost a lot has changed. But like, even just the framing of someone like Ellen and just thinking about her getting to have those moments where she set I can't it's like, Oh, someone's like, oh, would slaves know what to do with themselves? Would they be able to take care of themselves if they didn't have their masters? And she's like, well, they take care of themselves and their masters. So I'm pretty sure they'd be fine on their own. And like, a line like that is so funny and cute at the time. And everyone's like, hahaha. But I'm like, if she looked darker, right? Is that funny and cute, or is that she's got a bad attitude?

Jay Ellis 15:53

You know? I think it's really interesting too. Is like, when you think about this time, I think the thing that we have to be able to give so much credit to both of these people for regardless of whose idea was, is that they both had to be all in at all times? Right? No one got to take a day off. Neither one of them got to take a day off. They both had to be all in at all times, which means they're both as equally important to this journey, to this freedom, to this story, to becoming the you know, celebrities, if you will, that they became right. They're like, they're both equally important to it, because they both had to be in at all times, because if one of them betrayed it at any moment, it put the other one at risk as well.

Traci Thomas 16:36

Right, right, yes, and yes, 1,000% that the other thing, just like, because I want to go back to the beginning of the story, but the other thing about the colorism thing is, like, in the book, there's a there's inserts of pictures of the people, and some of them are drawings, some of them are photographs. But at this time, and she mentions this in the book, at this time, you know, Ellen's one of the first women abolitionists to take the stage. It's like pre Harriet Tubman, who becomes a huge star on the stage. But all of the men who are really focused on William Wells Brown, Frederick Douglass and then Ellen are all lighter skinned, mixed, you know, mulatto as the language of the time people. And they're all like the beloved, you know. So there, I think there is something to this, like these white audiences that are hearing this, or these abolitionist audiences, many of which are Quaker, many of them are white, though the book does mention that it's like a very diverse group of people that there is something to like, needing to have some white in them to, like, be heard or seen perhaps at this time. I don't know if that's true, but that's a little bit of just like, looking at the pictures, I was like, oh, all these abolition Purvis is also extremely fair skin. He looks basically white. So I thought that was really interesting. Like, even though we're saying, like, black lives matter in this time. In our own way, we're also like, but we want to hear it from the people who we know whose dads raped their moms. You know, like, we want to hear it from the people that we know are like, at least somewhat connected to us. So I guess that's I want to go back to the beginning. And I think, you know, dads raping moms is great place to start. Were you first of all, were you taught slavery in school? I know you went to a lot of schools.

Jay Ellis 18:28

We were taught slavery in school. I remember watching roots in school. I remember being one of two black kids in a class watching roots in school and how uncomfortable that was. Yeah, sounds like fun. Yeah. Yes. Wildly uncomfortable, but yeah, no, we were taught slavery in school.

Traci Thomas 18:46

Okay, as was I. How much of the information about what day to day life was like for enslaved people felt new to you in this book?

Jay Ellis 18:59

Oh, I felt like I learned a lot in this book, or I was being exposed to a lot of new stuff in this book.

Traci Thomas 19:04

New, so much new. Because I was,

Jay Ellis 19:08

like, even the fact that he was a cabinet maker. I was like, Oh, you had a specialized thing. Like, even that was like, You know what I mean, like, the fact that, but, yeah, sorry, go ahead.

Traci Thomas 19:17

No, no, no. I just was curious. Because, like, you know, nowadays we talk about, like, oh, how kids, like, aren't gonna learn anything about slavery because it makes the white kids uncomfortable. And there's this whole debate about what. And I'm like, Okay, well, I was taught like, about slavery in school. But even what we were taught, like, even what the prevailing narratives are are so, like, high level, like, on page 34 she goes through and talks about the pricing of different people, yes, and I didn't learn about that. I learned about that prior to this book, only because we did beloved on this podcast, and my guest was another historian, poet, and she was talking about the price of enslaved people and how, like a young woman, pre child bearing age was the most expensive. So. Slave to purchase. You would think it would be like a strong young man. Nope. She's like a 12 year old girl who's never who's like, maybe had one kid or a few kids, had no kids, yeah. Like that is return on investment type per and I was like, just thinking about, like, we're not taught about, like, the economics of slavery, or like that, you could take out a mortgage on a person. I didn't know you could do that.

Jay Ellis 20:23

I don't think I knew that. I think I definitely knew, like the value system, if you will. But I don't think I knew, I mean, because you know when you I mean, when you think about it, like that young woman is going to give you more children, yeah, ultimately, yeah, do.

Traci Thomas 20:38

As soon as you think about it, it makes total sense. But like, I don't, I don't ever remember, like, ever thinking about how human beings would be priced in a real way, like, I like, I felt like in school, I was like, they sold them, yeah, but like, they had different prices. Like, of course, some humans were more valuable than others. Crazy, provide which is crazy, crazy. She casually mentions in this book that December is prime buying and selling season. And I really wanted to know more about that. Why? Why is it December? Yeah, what is about? What is it about? Just, is it like, oh, we gotta, like, clear the books before the new year starts, before, like, the new fiscal year. Like, I just really wanted to,

Jay Ellis 21:24

this is a great question. I wonder what I mean. I wonder if it's, like, the harshness of winter, maybe, I mean, but they're in the

Traci Thomas 21:28

Yeah, like, or maybe, is it because maybe you want to, like, get people like, This is so crazy, you want to onboard them so that when planting season comes around in the spring, situated, they're ready to go. They like, they go to deal the land. Like, I don't know I was, I was sitting there after, after I read that line, like, for like, five minutes being like, what are the reasons this could be true? Um, but like, just like, little things like that. Like, of course, in any economy there's gonna be, like, a busy season. But I had never even stop to really consider stuff like that and this,

Jay Ellis 22:03

we're also not talking about like a machine that goes forever, right? You're talking about people who die off, who run away, who sell, who you sell off. So you also need to replenish that workforce, yeah, so yeah all

Traci Thomas 22:15

the time, yeah. And like, and then also like, you know, something that I have thought about a lot because I am not only am I mixed, like my dad is black and my mom is white, but my dad is from New Orleans, so we're Creole, which is like an inherently mixed group of people. So I think a lot about colorism and color and also the interpersonal relationships on plantations between masters and the people that they enslave, and also what that means for those children and, like, the family relationships, but this book really brought that to the front. I mean, yeah, Ellen and Eliza,

Jay Ellis 22:58

it's really crazy, right? Like her half sister,

Traci Thomas 23:03

yeah, and like, they talk about how she looks dead ass on the dad.

Jay Ellis 23:08

So crazy. Do you think that? Like, I just wonder what conversations were like. You know what I mean, like, what is Monday through Friday? Like, at the dinner table, or

she's at the dinner table?

Yeah, she's not at the dinner table. But you know what I mean?

Traci Thomas 23:23

Like, yeah, like, when she's like, doing up her hairdo, is she like, you know how dad is

Jay Ellis 23:29

so annoying to think that? Like, it also like, I mean, I You're enslaved. So some of you obviously wishes you had that freedom to be in that house. But then also, like, what is that feeling of like, anger or disgust inside while you're having to, like, do your half sister's hair. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know, it's just such a crazy thing to think about the layers of that. And, like, how, what a mind,

Traci Thomas 23:55

yeah, you know what I mean? And like, they talk about how, like, Ellen's our favorite. She's, like, one of our best, she's, she's our she's our beloved. And I'm just like, you own your sister. Like, that is so fucking crazy. And like, there's, there's so many parts of, like, the actual human part of what happened during chattel slavery that the way that it's taught in school, the way that it's even portrayed in like film and television, divorces the actual human feelings from the stuff, like even in a movie, like 12 Years a Slave and like the scenes with Lupita and Nyong'o, where you're like, these are so brutal, it's still hard for me to comprehend. But reading this book, I just there were so many, like the different stories, like William's sister being sold off right at like, that scene. And then there's another there's like so many. There's another guy whose wife is pregnant and is sold off four miles like, along with. The chain get, yeah, like, I don't know if it's because I'm a parent now, and I think about these things differently than maybe I did when I was, like 16 or whatever, learning about it, but like, this book really drove home to me, How fucking unreal. Yeah, evil. Like, you can just buy a person and mortgage a person and just and say you're a Christian, and then just send them away. A nine year old girl, you're just taking a nine year old girl from her mom to go work for your daughter. Like, what the fuck are you guys?

Jay Ellis 25:39

You know what I'm doing. It is too. I wonder if it's like because at that age, to your point, I wonder if it's like at that younger age, it's so hard for us to you know, you haven't had enough life experience. You are learning about this at a very young age, but like you haven't had enough life experience, your experience is probably with your parents or with a guardian, but you haven't had, I don't know there's something about like, there's something that you just said that just made me think about, like, when you have kids, and maybe that's the thing that kind of puts it all into a different perspective, because now you're talking about the person you've chose to spend your life with. You're talking about your children, you're talking about this, this thing being ripped apart and sold and mortgaged and raped and pillaged and beaten and all those things. But like you as a kid, even when we learn that stuff, and you're right, like, there is the human, the humanity element of it, the emotional element of it, is fully sanitized. But like, I wonder if it's like, also that we may not have enough life to connect to it. Yeah, I think you're right. I do think there is something about being a parent where you're like, Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, like it does hit you in a bit of a different way than when we're young, and maybe it's the way that it's taught to us when we're young, because we're not getting all the information that we should be getting,

Traci Thomas 27:01

right. I think, I think that definitely has to do with it too. Like, we're not taught some of this stuff by design, right? Like, it's like, like, we have to protect children. But also, like, it makes, it doesn't make America look good, right? Like, right, it is not a good look to be a country who continued this decades after other people were like, either forced to stop doing it or chose to stop doing it for whatever moral reasons. Like, not only did we not stop until, not only did it take us longer, but we did not stop until there was a literal war over it. Like, they

Jay Ellis 27:45

still didn't stop in some places.

Traci Thomas 27:46

Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. So it's like, then you go back to teach this history, and it's like, okay, how can we make this like work the best? But I also think it's, I think part of it for me was becoming a parent, but I also think you're right, like, it's just like, it's just like life experience like, I think when you experience like, you know, some kids do experience loss at a very young age, and maybe, you know, they are able to understand this in a different way than I could, like at in the space that I was when I was learning about slavery. But I think also it's experiencing loss and being like, okay, for me, my dad passed away when I was 25 and that was really, really sad. So now, when I think about someone's family member getting taken away, I'm like, that was very sad for me, and was nothing compared to what if this had happened to me? When I like, it's like, I can experience, I can have. I've had a life experience that I can relate to this thing, and I know that what I experienced was like, point 000, 0% of what it must have been like to be a person that was owned by other people, that was physically punished, that was their whole life was arbitrary at the whims of whoever was in the home that they lived and then, if they got sold, their whole life changed based on the new person and their personality. And like to lose a family member or a sibling, or just even, like, just a place that you call home, just to be told this isn't your home anymore. You don't there's

Jay Ellis 29:06

also something there's also something interesting. There's something interesting you just said. But like, by not going into it a little deeper and at another level, it also kind of leaves us to just believe that slaves were dumb and uneducated. Yes, yes. Like, the reality of it is, like, the life experience that they had. And by the way, they are the, they are the Farmers Almanac, right? They are the farmer Farmers Almanac. You know what I mean? Like, so, like, I think it's also this,

Traci Thomas 29:33

and they're the architects all those beautiful plantation homes that you love so much and want to get married at folks, they're building them. Who do you think built. Those who do you think designed, those who do you think came up with the the like, the weight, not just the actual building, but like they knew the techniques. They were master artistry. Like, William is a cabinet maker. He's

Jay Ellis 29:53

a cabinet maker. Yeah, and I think you know how much cabinets cost, there's something that's really interesting about that, because. It. It makes you believe truly that in some way, they were being saved, you know what I mean, or

Traci Thomas 30:09

that they were okay with it. Like it was like, Yeah, an okay deal,

Jay Ellis 30:13

yeah. But the reality is, they had to be so much smarter than what we could ever even imagine in order for the economy of the South to do what it did.

Traci Thomas 30:18

And the economy of the South really was the economy of the whole country. Because, I mean, she talks about it in the book, but it's like, Oh, this guy from Boston, he was, he had the loom, yeah. So like, what's all the cotton gonna do you, if you can't turn it into something, right? And, like, you know, we know. We know how much the economy, like, we know how much the North tried to scapegoat the south on a lot of this stuff. And, like, how slavery was not just a southern thing, but, like, a whole but, but a entire country thing. But I do think you're right that it's like, it makes it seem like this, the people who are enslaved, or at least complicit, or, like, not, but they were like, okay with it. Like, it was like, you know, not a great deal, but it's fine. And then you read a book like this, and it's like, on every page, someone is trying to escape. On every page, people are, you know, resisting and just fucking shit up, just a little bit, like, just making things difficult. And like, I think that's the, I think that's the thing that, like, I realized as I got older, was like, okay, black Americans, black people, and I'm sure this happened, obviously in other places. We know Haiti had a revolt years and years before we did, but that, like, black people who were enslaved were not liking it at all. Like, we're taught this is, yeah, we're taught like, this is just the way of the land, but like, that is not how it felt in the time people like, that's why the enslavers were so had so many laws, like all of this. They were freaked the fuck out. They were like, We're outnumbered, and these people hate it here. Yeah, we're outnumbered. These people hate it here, and we need them to be like, we will do anything we can to make their lives more difficult and punish them in the hopes that we can maintain this. But by the time it gets taught in schools, it's like, this was the economy and like, not great, but also, like, got a place to stay Eli Whitney's invention, yeah, exactly. They love church, you wouldn't have like oxtails if it weren't for this. So congratulations. Okay, let's take a quick break, and then we're gonna come back. Okay, we're back. Let's talk a little bit about the escape, speaking of black folks not wanting to be enslaved, being way smarter than everybody else. This plan is fucking brilliant.

Jay Ellis 32:48

Brilliant. Again, once again, we're talking about whoever came up with the plan. They came up with the plan.

Traci Thomas 32:55

I think they came up with it together. Personally, I have a hard time believing that William was like, here's the plan. Or Ellen was like, This is what you're going to do.

Jay Ellis 33:02

Well, because also you need somebody, because they split up, right? So you need somebody who's going to go through with their you need to know that this person is going to go through with their part,

Traci Thomas 33:10

and you're not going to do someone else's plan. If you don't, if you haven't felt signed off, this is your literal life on the line, both of your lives on the line, because, you know, if you get caught, I mean, William says I'm gonna kill, it's gonna be it's death or freedom, yeah, right, like, he's got the gun. He's like, but if you get caught and you go back, no, no,

Jay Ellis 33:33

no.

Traci Thomas 33:35

I mean, no,

Jay Ellis 33:36

not at all. No, not at that. Okay, so this plan, this plan, is absolutely amazing. I love the fact that William was smart enough to pick up the hair and take it with him after he cut it so, like, there was no signs that, like, you know what I mean. And now she looks at herself and looks, she's like, Oh, I'm a sick little white boy. Like, it's just like, This is crazy. Like

Traci Thomas 33:57

they played on the like fantasy of, like, young white boy goes off with his slightly older and wiser slave, like to see the world, and the slave will teach it like, I love that this is, like, this made up idea of like, Southern like, in the Southern world. And they were like, Let's, let's fucking do that bullshit that they think, that they think, like we're besties and like that. She was like, Okay, well, I don't have facial hair, so I probably need some, like, pulses or whatever, like, I need some like, bandages on my face. I'm like, I'm terrified. So like, glasses feel like, like it was just, there's a line where the author says, like, they were able to pull this off because they were both creative people, and they were able to visualize the whole plan, and I I felt really seen. I was like, because that's how I work. I'm like, Okay, I have an idea, and now I have to sit down and literally plan it out all the way to the end and think about all the possible things that could go wrong. I usually just call this anxiety, but apparently. It's also a winning strategy.

Jay Ellis 35:01

It's also vision. You have vision. They had vision. So what I was just gonna say, I just, I also love this thing of, like, her being in her enslavers clothes, you know? Like, there's just so many things that were like, just well thought out. Like, you know what I mean? Like, this isn't again. This back to your point, like it wasn't hers, it wasn't his. It had to be theirs, because somebody had to be like, but what if, yeah, and then, and then what? And what are you gonna say and what are you gonna wear? Like someone had to constantly be poking holes and each other, like they had to build this thing together, especially for them to like, then meet at the train hours later and not know if the other one was gonna be there,

Traci Thomas 35:44

even beyond there, I know. And like, I think what's interesting about their story because they're both sort of skilled air quotes, skilled laborers. Or, I guess it's not air quotes, but they're skilled laborers. She, you know, works by the side of her mistress, slash sister, and also is like above average seamstress, and he's a cabinet maker, and so both of their work puts them in very close proximity to white people. And I think that that was really important for their plan as well. Like that, they both had to know and understand who they were up against. And like she knew in the moment when the guy sits down that she had served dinner the night before, like, I gotta just be deaf, like he will know. And like, then later on, she was like, I gotta stand my ground, because, like, I'm not gonna get like, they would not accept me getting bitched around here. And like, I just thought that that stuff. Of like, you know, we talk about this a lot in writing, of, like, men can't write women because men don't see women fully. But women can write men, or like black people can write white people, because we know and understand the oppressor in a way that, like, it would be probably very hard for a white person at this time to, like, disguise themselves as black because they just don't see them. But, but when you're observing the people, you're tormentors, you see every little thing. And I just love that, like that played to their advantage.

Jay Ellis 37:06

Yeah, yeah. It's, it's, it's interesting, because you just brought up something that I again, like to have the ability to pivot and play deaf. You know what I mean? Like to have in a moment you pivot, you're like, Oh, I see him. He might see me. What do I do here? Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, that is not, that's not the thought that runs through people's minds. Like, that's not the average thought, like, I don't want to talk to somebody, I'm just gonna play deaf. Like, that's not the average thought that runs through somebody's mind, and it's such a risk, such a risk.

Traci Thomas 37:39

Like, it's just so they're both so risky, it's unbelievable. And, like, also the whole thing of like, oh, well, I don't know how to write, so I'm just gonna put my hand in a sling and be like, will you write for me? And like that, that just, like, worked. Yeah, okay,

Jay Ellis 37:58

she's in men's clothes. She's never wore men's clothes before. She doesn't have to move in men's clothes. You know what I'm saying? Like, there's just so many things where you're like, I don't know. It's just the ingenuity and and how clever, yeah, thoughtful and thought out so many things had to be, and also, at the same time, how committed to it you have to be, because at any moment, something could go sideways.

Traci Thomas 38:19

Yeah, I would say it's, like, a, it's a real like, Simone Biles level, commit to the bit, like, it's, it's the hardest gymnastics move that's ever happened. And you just have to hope that you stick the landing and like they do, they pull it off. That part to me, I'm just like, Wait, you guys really did it? Like, congratulations.

Jay Ellis 38:42

I was about to say Planes, Trains and Automobiles, but carriages, trains and automobiles and ships. Well, ships, sorry, no, automobiles, carriages, trains and ships. They figured it out.

Traci Thomas 38:53

They get to fill or they get to Pennsylvania, they make it, yeah, they become part of the abolitionist circuit, and basically from the moment, from the moment that they get to freedom, everyone is like, this is PR genius. This is everyone around them is like, we can sell this. I thought that was fascinating, yeah. Like, I did not, I def as as much as I knew about slavery, and also the things that I didn't know. I felt like the at learning about, like, how the abolitionist movement was working on day to day, like how these people were coming in and, like, getting linked up immediately. It's not like they were going on Twitter and being like, Bitch, I'm here. Where's the party at? Like, going to the hotel and being like, who can help us?

Jay Ellis 39:46

We have an abolitionist party on Tuesday. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 39:49

yeah. They're like, Purvis. Purvis Come, come, come, roll up. We got these two and, like, she comes out in her men clothes, and then she's like, just kidding, like, I'm a girl. I. Um, like, all of that, like, from the moment they touch down, everyone is like, Yeah, let's, let's get this on stage immediately. I thought that was fascinating.

Jay Ellis 40:13

Yeah, what do you think? Like, first of all, I mean, you're going out and you're having conversations, obviously, with groups of people, yeah, I'm sure there. Obviously, there was some writing about it as well. Clearly, we know that, but I think when you think of that, it's just such an interesting thing. But I also have such a mixed relationship with PR, right? Because I yeah, for a living, so I have such a mixing relationship with VR as part of what I do for a living. So I'm just curious. Like, when you think of that, is there any like, does it feels sticky in any way to you, like, is there anything about it that feels like, yeah, you're doing a good thing. But also something about it feels a little, I don't know. It just does. It feels a little icky, feels a little opportunist. It feels a little, you know what I mean, putting people in danger, sure,

Traci Thomas 40:55

for sure. I think so. This is another part of the book that I would have loved to see contextualized a little bit more. And I don't know if there's like, data, but I'm curious to know how many people who escaped from the south then go on the abolitionist circuit. Like, are they doing interviews and being like, your story's Good, come with us? Or, like, or is it just like, oh, I want to talk about this stuff, or I'm able to talk about this stuff. And I think, like, that information would have been helpful to me, because I did think it was a little bit crazy that, like, from the moment they touched down, they're like, Okay, tomorrow, you guys have to come tell your story. You, yeah. And that also other people were telling their story, and then being like, Okay, guys, come on out. Like it what remember? Because, like, that's how the setup was. It's like William Wells Brown would go up there and talk for like, 20 minutes, and then he would decide, like, when to bring them out. And it would be such a surprise, because the white slave would come up, like, that's what they called Ellen. And so it felt a little bit like, like they were being used, a little bit like for their story, but it also sounds like they wanted to tell their story. They wanted, maybe they didn't know that they wanted to do it before they got there. But there's multiple times where they could have just left and they chose to stay and like be part of this community, and like to go on the circuit. So I don't mean

Jay Ellis 42:20

layers, layers, right? Yes, layers. You've been, you've been given literally nothing your entire life, right? And the only attention you've ever gotten has been negative, probably, right, with the exception of, obviously, they loved, they loved Ellen, they loved Ellen, but she was still great. She's so great, but she's still a slave. But it's interesting, because, like, now you're being catered to. You're being you know, meals are being had in your honor, and conversations are being had, and people are clapping and money, and people are clapping when you stand there and they want to hear you speak. And so I imagine it is probably a very conflicting thing for them to be going through that, but also have this thing of, I don't know it's, yeah, I don't know, to me, it just was, like a very layered and confusing thing to be going through. But I can also see how you would lean into it, considering what your past has been and

Traci Thomas 43:14

like that, you feel a responsibility, perhaps, responsibility. Yeah,

Jay Ellis 43:17

you know what? I mean, there's not out, and there's so many things that I feel like could be actually fighting against each other,

Traci Thomas 43:25

and also, like, one of the things that's so crazy about this book is how many people in this book that I've, like, learned about in history, like, knew each other, or were, like, related to each other. It's like, it's like, Ellen's half sister, sister, yeah, is related to Grover Cleveland, yeah, I'm just like, wait, what? And then, like, Louisa May alcott's relative is like a Quaker, and then they're on the boat to Liverpool with the guy that Uncle Tom's Cabin was based off

Jay Ellis 43:55

the Quaker thing. The Quaker thing is when they got to Barclay, that's when they got to Barclays house, right? Is that when that whole, that whole connection, like, comes together?

Traci Thomas 44:04

I think so, yeah, yeah. I think so, yeah. But it's like, every like, it's like, and there's just like, Frederick Douglass is, like, hanging out, and like William Lloyd Garrison is just like, our friend, like Willie, like, definitely crazy.

Jay Ellis 44:18

Think of where they were, yeah, and then now, all of a sudden, you're, you're having conversations with people like this, or in rooms with people like this, or, I don't know, I can imagine, like, what, what kind of I don't know. I feel like my brain would explode. Like, I don't know how you process the two worlds, and

Traci Thomas 44:37

I don't know how you would make a decision. Like, I think in the book sheet, the author kind of tries to say that Ellen and William tried to tell their own story in their own way, and they didn't always share all the pieces of their life and all of this stuff, but it's hard to know. Like, that's some of the stuff that I just like, wish we could know. Like, I just wish we could just ask Ellen, like, what did it feel like to show up and then. Tell you like, we want to take you on the circuit. Like, did you consider saying no? Did you consider like, just going somewhere else? Like, how and also, like, these people are taking care of you, right? Like you're in these underground railroad places, meals places. They're telling you, yeah, they're telling you, we want you to talk like we think your story will really change lives. How do you say no to that?

Jay Ellis 45:26

It's interesting also, too. I wonder what like this is gonna sound crazy. This is such a hot I love things that sound crazy. Does William Wells Brown kind of feel like Don King? A little bit.

Traci Thomas 45:39

I was gonna go with a different King. It's gonna go with Sean King.

Jay Ellis 45:45

Whoa.

Traci Thomas 45:49

He just is on every circuit. And then, I mean, obviously, not fully Sean king, but like, he does have a little race peddler energy.

Jay Ellis 46:01

There's just something about it, but it's also like, I the reason I said the Don King pit is because it feels exploit, exploitative. It feels opportunistic. It feels like, in one hand, you are giving people a real chance at something in life, but on the other hand, you are also benefiting greatly from their thing.

Traci Thomas 46:20

Yeah, but they do make the point that later on, he's like, sent all his money home to his kids, and like, when he's like, on the streets of, like, Edinburgh, or whatever, he there's like another guy, and he like, gives him his like, last shilling. So like, but he does the thing is, like, when he's on that stage, the way that he's described, it's definitely giving like, a little, a little too much. Showman, it's like, why are you at every event? My guy, every event. Yeah. I mean, the other part about that is, like, there are so many people in this book that I'd never heard of, like Purvis. He's like, one of the first guys, and he's called the father of the Underground Railroad. I was like, if you if that was a question on Jeopardy and I could win a billion dollars, I would just be like, Mr. Harriet Tubman, like, I would have no clue. I'd be like, Colson.

Jay Ellis 47:13

Anybody Colson? That's amazing. Does anybody know Harriet Tubman's husband's name? Yeah, no, okay, I'll split.

Traci Thomas 47:21

Okay, okay, sorry,

Jay Ellis 47:24

I didn't see the purpose one threw me too. I didn't see that coming at all.

Traci Thomas 47:28

I don't think I knew William Wells Brown either. I did know Henry Box Brown. I had heard of Henry Box Brown, Henry the one who was in the box.

Jay Ellis 47:37

Oh yeah,

Traci Thomas 47:39

I had heard that story, Rob, I'd heard of him, Robert, and I knew, yeah, Purvis, I definitely didn't know. And it was like, then they meet the father of the Underground Railroad. And I like, it's like, the end of the chapter. It's like, Oh, who's it gonna be? And it was like, So and so Purvis. I was like, Julian. I was like, think you have the wrong guy. Never heard

Jay Ellis 47:57

I wonder what that was. I mean, he obviously, he met, he had money. He was black, I wonder,

Traci Thomas 48:03

but he looked white. Remember he was like, super passing.

Jay Ellis 48:05

Yeah, he was super passing. I wonder if it's because, like, maybe I missed this in the read. But, like, is it? Was it because he had, like, the financial means to, like, what was his qualification as being the father?

Traci Thomas 48:19

I think he was very connected. It's out, my sense was that, like, he knew everybody, and so he was able to be like, Okay, you can go be with these people, and you can go be with these people, right? But it didn't, she didn't. From my read, I don't remember her saying why he was the father, just that, like, that's what they called him, yeah, but it might have been like, the kind of thing where it's like, oh, he's the mayor of Los Angeles, and you're like, Oh, you just, he just knows everybody.

Jay Ellis 48:42

Knows everybody. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 48:44

he's just like, the center of the thing. Okay, we're sort of running out of time. But there's two things that I really want to talk about that are sort of more like thematic things from the book. One is that from the very beginning of this book, we are told, not only is this a story of two people who escape slavery, who are so ingenious and smart, but also that this is a great love story, and I'm curious how you feel about this book being framed as a great love story. Did you need that? Did you care if they were in love?

Jay Ellis 49:17

No, I don't think I cared. I think in some ways, it not being framed that way. You know, it's interesting. Okay, so I think this being a great love story, if, if you would want to call it that, I don't know that. I would necessarily think that, but like, if you wanted to call it a great love story, I could understand that because of the commitment that these two people are making to each other, and they're going to do this thing together, and they were able to do it together. Obviously, she may have been stepping out on the back end. We don't know there's, there's questions, but also he may have been stepping out on the back end. They both. They both could have got to the UK. Yeah, we out here. We live through a lot, so we gonna get in but I. Them being in love didn't process through my mind as I was reading this book like it didn't change anything for me. It didn't make everything the stakes are still there, the freedom is still there, the journey is still there. And maybe that's why they stayed in it. Maybe because, to your point, they could have walked away at any point in time, maybe, so maybe that's why they stayed in it. But I don't know that, like framing it that way necessarily did anything for me.

Traci Thomas 50:30

I just didn't think they needed it. I just, I also don't know that we know that they really loved each other like it felt like, like the Hollywood version of it, where it's like, and they loved each other like they could have, they could have loved each other. They could have loved each other at one point and then just become partners. They could have just been married people who saw an opportunity and loved working like, enjoyed being around each other and working with each other. Like, I don't know. There's so much personal stuff that we don't know. And the fact that like, it's like, they're in love. I'm like, okay, but who cares? Like, I don't know, for some reason, not really, like, was like, a tiny thing. Every time it would come up, I would just like, okay, whatever. Like, look for, like, they

Jay Ellis 51:06

could have got up north and been like, Oh, this is what it's like outside. Okay, yeah,

Traci Thomas 51:13

okay,

Jay Ellis 51:13

this is what he's cute, okay, you know what I mean, like, they could have got outside and, you know, they were in a very different situation when they got together, to when they were now on the other side of of of freedom, and then obviously, you know, going across the the Atlantic and getting to the UK as well. Like, the circumstance changed quite a bit. So not to say that they weren't in love, obviously, but like, they now had opportunity to look at life in a different way, yeah.

Traci Thomas 51:39

And like, I just think that the love part, whether they were or not, is super irrelevant to the story. To me, like it doesn't. I'm not like, Oh, I'm rooting for you more because you love each other. Like, if they had, I think that they have love for one another, like you might friend, yeah, like they were a partnership, but like, this idea that they also had to have a great love story, I'm like, nothing in here proves that they had a great love story, except for that they pulled off this incredible thing we started here, and I sort of want to end here, which is like, Why do you think this story has not withstood the test of time? Why did it disappear? Why didn't it stay?

Jay Ellis 52:12

I don't know. This is so crazy to me, because I'm like, is there a world in which, like, clearly, like someone decision makers, rather, at the state education level, across many states like don't want kids to know about successful attempts at escapes. You know what? I mean, I don't know. I still can't really clock that one. I still don't understand why we wouldn't know a story like this. I mean, I guess it's, by the way. I mean, you're talking about scrubbing 1000s of stories, right, right? Um, 1000s and 1000s. I mean, we know, for example, like, you know, Oklahoma, or what became Oklahoma was filled with escaped, enslaved, formerly enslaved people, right? So, like, no, but we don't know any of those stories either. So, and yeah, so, yeah, I don't, I mean, listen, history is, to this point, has been written by folks who do not come from slaves. And I think, you know, you look at states like, you know, Florida, and like, how they're changing, what they how they're going to teach around slavery, and you know, it's like you're now being told that, like, slaves learned useful skills. And listen, he was a cabinet he was a cabinet maker, and he made money being a cabinet maker, but also, right? He was so many other things,

Traci Thomas 53:32

right? And like, had any slaves choose, maybe he would have chosen something completely different for his wildly different, yeah, yeah. I don't know why this story hasn't stood the test of time, because it has all the elements of, like, something that would including that it was documented contemporaneous very well, yeah, yeah. And so I don't exactly know. I think part of it is that, like, the level of trickery is maybe just like, too good and too successful. And so people who were in charge, the whites did not want to and I think also, because Ellen is a complicated figure, it's easier to be like Harriet Tubman, Black Woman Goes back and forth to slavery, but it's harder to be like Ellen, woman who looks white because her dad raped her mom, who he owned and so she was able, like it puts that violence front and center. So I wonder if that's part of the reason that this story doesn't stand the test of time. Because as appealing as it was in the time Ellen, it's a comp. It's complicated, right? It's like, okay, we have to talk about how this was possible, and the way that it was possible was because of the brutalities that are inherent in chattel slavery and the things that were allowed and accepted, and even not just in schools, but just in general, I think it was hard for people's brains to compute that she would that this is a black woman, because you. All said, so because of the one drop rule, even though, by all visual cue like it, it basically says race is made up. And if you put that front and center, yeah, you have to start being like, okay, so how is she black? Like, how is she white? You know, so I wonder if that was also part of it. If, like, there's a lot of trickery. But at the heart of it, this is a story about how valuable race is. Yeah. Okay, last thing, title and cover, Master Slave Husband Wife, and then the cover is sort of green to yellow, and it's got pictures of them on the cover. What did you think of both of these things?

Jay Ellis 55:39

Yeah, I really liked the cover. I'm not sure why. I think I liked the cover, because I was fully thrown by her picture, because I was like, Oh, did he marry a white woman? Like, I was actually confused a little bit, like, you know what I mean? I think I was actually confused a little bit, um, so I think I was like, Oh, this is a story about, like, two people who don't look like, I think I was thinking it was something different. Title, um, interesting. It jumps at you. It grabs you. Yes, it does. They are all of those things, yes.

Traci Thomas 56:12

So you're giving it a solid, solid grade,

Jay Ellis 56:16

yeah,

Traci Thomas 56:17

okay, I'll give you my grades. Title. I love the title. I hate how many times and how the title showed up in the book. It would be like, and then they were now. They were no longer master slave. They were now only husband wife. I'm like, Okay, goodbye. I hate this. The title is great, but it shows up nine times in the book in those ways, including chapter headings. One is has master, slave, and then, like, a few chapters, husband, wife. And I was just like, Okay, we get it. We get it. The cover, I really like, but I almost wish their pictures weren't on the cover interesting. I just really like that the like art that's the background, and I love the fonts and everything.

Jay Ellis 57:01

But I love the steamboat in the corner.

Traci Thomas 57:03

Yeah, I do too. But I also like a version of the cover that just has their faces. I think I could like, but for some reason, like the way that the faces are sort of like floating in like a no man's land on the cover is just like a fair enough weird to me. Just like, what are these disembodied,

Jay Ellis 57:19

disembodied heads. Yeah, that's fair, yeah. But like,

Traci Thomas 57:23

I don't mind the pictures. I just I wish they were more incorporated somehow. Um, but I do, like, I think it's a pretty book, and I it caught my eye when it first came out, even though I didn't read it until now, it was on my like, list of books to read for the last year and a half because I was like, Ooh, I'm interested. Um, okay, this was great. Is there anything else you want to say before we get out of here? No, I'm good. This was awesome. This is okay. This was great. Everybody, wait, you haven't

Jay Ellis 57:49

I have one question. We didn't. We didn't ask this one question. Did you love the book?

Traci Thomas 57:54

I liked it. I liked it a lot. I enjoyed it a lot. I wouldn't say that I loved it, like, I don't know that I was, like, freaking out to read it, or, like, staying up all night to read it, but I learned a lot. It made me think a lot. I was very impressed with how well it was written and, like, how narrative it was. So it's, I definitely would say it's a five star read for me. But I don't know that I had the emotional feeling of like, Oh, I love this book, which I do get sometimes with these, like, intense narrative nonfictions. How about you?

Jay Ellis 58:25

It's a five star for me, for sure, I think the same thing. I wasn't like, I can't put this down. But I think for me, it was like, I think it was the education, to be quite honest, I think it was the learning of something where I'm like, Oh, I know what it is, and then I'm like, Oh, I have no idea what it is, or, yeah, or I only know a fraction of what it is. So I think it was that for me, where I was like, you know, it's all the stuff that we talked about up front. It's like, the everyday stuff that you're now learning about. And, like, I guess if you've been to namac, you kind of learn some of that stuff, because you start to you see all the artifacts, and you get a bit of an understanding of, like, what's what, what day to day life was like for some slaves, but our enslaved people rather, but, yeah, I would give it a five.

Traci Thomas 59:12

I've never heard someone say namac. I know you're talking about the African American history. Yeah, I've never heard it called that. I was like, namac. And then I was like, Oh, of course. I have been, and you do get a lot of this stuff, but yeah, I think the thing that is the most impressive about this book is, like, how much information is in it, for a person like me who's like, I feel like I know about this. Like I felt like I learned so much, and I really and it made me want to read more books of the time period for sure. Yeah, okay, speaking of books of the time period, another book that is of this exact same time period is called, did everyone have an imaginary friend or just me? It's about Jay Ellis. No, just kidding. It's about a totally different time period. But if you haven't read it yet, you must go out and get it. Is Jay's debut book. Book. It is about his life. It is a memoir about his childhood, very different energy. This is a good pairing, because you might need something light and fun and just like nostalgic, because that book is nostalgia 101, or like, not 101, nostalgia on 100 is what I should say. And you can get the book now. It is out in the world. Now you can also, if you haven't yet, still get Master Slave Husband Wife. But hurry up and catch up, people, and listen to the end of today's episode to find out what our September book club pick will be. Jay, thank you so much for doing this. This was really a treat.

Jay Ellis 1:00:35

No thank you for having me. This is exciting. This was fun.

Traci Thomas 1:00:37

Yay. And everyone else, we will see you in The Stacks.

All right, y'all that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening, and thank you again to Jay Ellis for being my guest. I'd also like to say a huge thank you to Andrea pura and to Carla Bruce Eddings for helping to make this conversation possible. All right, now, what you all been waiting for time to announce our September book club pick. It is Toni Morrison month we are going to be reading Jazz. Yes, yes, yes. It is time for another Toni title, and it's another classic. Jazz is set in 1926 and it's all about jilted love, obsession, self discovery, maybe even a little murder. You'll have to listen to our September 4 episode to find out who our guest will be for our September 25 discussion of Jazz. If you love this show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/the stacks to join the stacks. Pack and you can check out my newsletter at TraciThomas.substack.com make sure you're subscribed to The Stacks. Wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, be sure to leave us a rating and a review for more from The Stacks. Follow us on social media, @thestackspod on Instagram, threads and Tiktok and @thestackspod_ on Twitter, and you can check out the website at thestackspodcast.com this episode of The Stacks was edited by Christian Dueñas, with production assistance from Lauren Tyree and Megan Caballero. Our graphic designer is Robin Mccright, and our theme music is from tegirigis. The Stacks is created and produced by me Traci Thomas.

]]>Ep. 334 Master Slave Husband Wife by Ilyon Woo — The Stacks Book Club (Jay Ellis)Ep. 333 Writing a COVID Novel with Regina PorterStacks AssistantWed, 21 Aug 2024 07:00:00 +0000https://www.thestackspodcast.com/2024/08/21/ep-333-regina-porter65d2b7a49de6215855aa3aaa:66084694f1e135566828a41a:66c25b17dea6602a7bc6e8b6

Today we’re joined by author Regina Porter to discuss her new book, The Rich People Have Gone Away. She explains what made her hesitant to write a COVID novel and why she eventually changed her mind. She shares the role of humor in her work, and what made exploring the trope of missing white women exciting to her. 

The Stacks Book Club pick for August is Master Slave Husband Wife by Ilyon Woo. We will discuss the book on August 28th with Jay Ellis.

LISTEN NOW

Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Google Podcasts | Overcast | Stitcher | Transcript

  

Everything we talk about on today’s episode can be found below in the show notes and on Bookshop.org and Amazon.

To support The Stacks and find out more from this week’s sponsors, click here.

Connect with Regina: Instagram
Connect with The Stacks: Instagram | Twitter | Shop | Patreon | Goodreads | Substack | Subscribe

To contribute to The Stacks, join The Stacks Pack, and get exclusive perks, check out our Patreon page. If you prefer to support the show with a one time contribution go to paypal.me/thestackspod.

The Stacks participates in affiliate programs. We receive a small commission when products are purchased through links on this website.

TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Traci Thomas 0:08

Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Traci Thomas, and today, Regina Porter joins the show. Regina is an author and playwright, and her newest book, The Rich People Have Gone Away just came out this month. The book is set during the pandemic lockdown of 2020 and is full of hope community and reckoning with the past. It's an intense, propulsive and very cinematic novel with a ton of emotional chaos, set around the disappearance of a white woman. Today we talk about why she didn't want to write a covid novel, but ended up doing it anyway, what was interesting to her about taking on the missing white woman trope and how friendships and obligations play into this novel. Remember The Stacks Book Club pick for August is Master Slave Husband Wife, by Ilyon Woo, which we will discuss on Wednesday, August 28th with Jay Ellis. Quick reminder, everything we talk about on each episode of the show can be found in the link in the show notes. If you love the stacks and you want inside access to it, head over to patreon.com/thestacks and join the stacks pack for just $5 a month. You get to be part of a fantastic, amazing, wonderful, top tier book community. We have a very active discord where we discuss all things, books, food, pop culture and more. We have a monthly virtual book club meetup where we discuss our book club pick. We do bonus episodes each month, and you get to know that by joining The Stacks Pack, you make it possible for me to make the show every single week. Head to patreon.com/thestacks and join. I do want to say that if you like the show, you want to support the work of the show, but you don't want to be part of a bookish community, you should go check out my newsletter at Traci thomas.substack.com where I write about books and pop culture. I just wrote a whole thing about Olympic events as books, plus I'm giving you updates on what's going on here around The Stacks. Head to Tracithomas.substack.com to subscribe. Okay, now it's time for my conversation with Regina Porter.

All right, everybody. I am so excited. I am joined today by Regina Porter. She is the author of a book that just well, she's a playwright and author of previous books, but this book that just came out this month is called The Rich People Have Gone Away. It is sort of a literary mystery thriller. It sort of defies genre to me, which we'll talk about. But Regina, welcome to The Stacks.

Regina Porter 2:56

Oh, thank you. It's fabulous to be here.

Traci Thomas 2:59

I'm so excited. I well before we even dive in, in about 30 seconds or so, can you just tell folks about this book?

Regina Porter 3:07

Well, it's a novel set in New York, and it's about a group of friends, some more family and friends, some more privileged than others, and the fallout that occurs when one of them, a pregnant woman, goes missing, against the backdrop of the pandemic.

Traci Thomas 3:26

Yes, that is where I want to start. This is, I think, I can't say for sure, but it's the one that comes to mind. This is the most successful, in my opinion, Covid novel that I have ever read. And I feel like we're sort of getting to the beginning of what might be a few years of Covid novels coming. And I wanted to know, why did you want to write a Covid novel?

Regina Porter 3:54

Well, you know, it's really kind of wild. Initially, I didn't I was working on another project and another book, and I went for a walk, and it was in the early days of covid, and I The streets were so eerie and quiet. And I went back home, and I could not focus for the life of me on the novel I was working on, and a character came to me, this character, Theo, and he was my in and again, I struggled with, I didn't want to write a covid novel, so I said, if I'm going to do this, I'm going to have to find an interesting human way into this novel. And I think he was it for me.

Traci Thomas 4:49

What do you think? I guess, why didn't you want to write a Covid novel? What were you sort of apprehensive about?

Regina Porter 4:55

Perhaps, it being called a covid novel? I mean, we're still trying to really understand covid after all of these years, right? I wanted to write a novel about people being people, because we didn't stop being people. There were just certain challenges that we experienced, right? Yeah, and ways of of living and and and shifts in our lifestyle.

Traci Thomas 5:27

Yeah, right, yeah. I mean, you're, you're a playwright on top of being a novelist. Did you ever consider that this story might be a play?

Regina Porter 5:36

No, no, because it came to me visually again, walking around part slope that the quiet neighborhood, the windows and doors, it actually was so visual. It reminded me of something there's a great horror film, I want to say, 28 days later, do you know? And I had that sort of feeling with what's going on behind doors? Like, where are all the people? I was out running an errand with my dog, and there were just very few people out, you know.

Traci Thomas 6:10

So for your plays, if your novels come to you visually, how do your plays come to you?

Regina Porter 6:16

Listening to the world and hearing the world, hearing something someone says and sort of running with that. But for fiction, it tends to be visual. Character does something and it stays with me.

Traci Thomas 6:34

Yeah, that's so interesting. So this what I really found fascinating about this book. It's set in New York, both in the city and upstate, though we also get to go a few other places with some of the characters. But mostly, you know, it's a New York City or New York novel. And you sort of frame this book among these two tragedies, covid and also 911 and those are both huge, you know, events in the book and in the characters lives. And I was wondering how you were thinking about those two things being connected.

Regina Porter 7:08

Well, some of the same fears and phobias came up, I think, again, say with anti Asian bias, right? That kind of spiked during covid and then 911 and post 911 so we, we were sort of psychologically and emotionally in similar places with uncertainty, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I wanted to explore that and how humans respond in a crisis.

Traci Thomas 7:43

Yeah, I also feel like one of the things that I was thinking I had not occurred to me until I read the book, was also how, like in these moments of fear and unknown and terror and all of this stuff, not just terror, like a terrorist attack, but just the terror of covid or like the terror of something's happening around you to your community, that it often time is a time for people to sort of, like, reevaluate their priorities and reset and like, think about, you know, what if this happened to me? Am I living the life that I want to live? Am I the person that I want to be? Am I, you know, doing the things that I should be doing? And I feel like that is you really represent those kind of questions, those existential questions, so well in the book. And I could so relate to the characters who I think they all sort of question like, Am I doing what I'm supposed to be doing with my life? Was that something that you were like, really thinking about, like with each?

Regina Porter 8:41

I started with Theo, and I wanted him to really sort of think about his privilege. He's not someone inclined to be guilty. And I don't think guilt really works so well in fiction. I think it kind of helps to have a character, I won't say, Who's beyond guilt, but who, who who sort of puts a little bit of distance between himself and the world and his feelings, but covid starts making him analyze his identity, what he's been told, and what's happening in in in real time In the world around him. And you also have someone like Ruby, who runs with her partner, Katsumi, and they run a high end restaurant, afro, Asian fusion in in the Bowery. And she sees the growing homeless community, and she feels a sense of responsibility, and she starts thinking of even more about food and food sustainability and so and and we're having these conversations now, right? And even when we talk about lifestyle choices, there are some pluses that have come out of of covid. Where people have decided I want to spend more time with my family. I'm not going to work five days a week in the office. It's been amazing to me that people are holding their ground and everything in this manner. And so from a tragedy or tragic period, there have been some blessings, too, that I think we'll see more and more as time goes by, as well as humor. And I did want to inflect humor in the novel.

Traci Thomas 10:35

Yes, that was the next thing I was going to say to you. I was going to say, I feel like this is a book that when you hear about it, it's like, this is a serious book, and it is a serious book. There's serious things going on, but like, you really found ways to find the humor. And I think, like, I could tell that you were a playwright in reading this book, because so many of the scenes I could see on the stage, right? Like, there's like, this dinner. And I was like, This is August Osage County. Like, this is a play, right? Like, this is act two of August Osage County. Or, like, there's these, there's another scene where Theo, this character that came to first, and his wife Darla, are on a hike. And I could see that scene, that scene, I saw more as like a movie, though, because I needed a little more like, you know, they're on a hike. A hike is hard to do on the stage, but in all of these scenes, and in all of these characters, there is this sort of underlying humor. And humor is such a huge part of my life, and I can't imagine my life without it. But I'm wondering if that's hard to bring to the page to make it feel authentic, authentically funny or humorous, or, you know, whatever, without it feeling like jokey?

Regina Porter 11:55

When I teach my students, I tell them that you can pull off anything if you know your character really well, and the humor is coming from the character. So for me, the humor works because it I don't just give a character a line, the character gives me the line, but I also understand every culture has and uses humor, and particularly in cultures where there has been subversity, humor can be wonderful and subversive. It is survival tool. So sometimes during challenging times, and covid was a challenging time, the humor is what we fall back on, and it's important to thread that into the narrative in a compassion so compassionate, sometimes a shocking way, um, because that's how humor sometimes is, right? It shocks us. It makes us a little uncomfortable, but it also brings us together.

Traci Thomas 13:04

Yes, yeah, I'm wondering. You know, it's the book comes out, you know, came out this month. It's 2024, it's been, you know, four years, sort of since covid starts. How has the book changed from maybe what you set out to write when Theo first came to you, especially since our collective relationships to covid, have changed so much, probably from when you started writing this book.

Regina Porter 13:33

It's changed in the way that I described, in terms of how I see our lifestyles now and how we balance time, as I said, people not resisting going back to a certain kind of day to day grind in their lives, that's a tough question, because, again, I think it's still evolving when we meet, when we meet Theo and Ruby and Darla, it's the early stages still, and it seemed like, for some people, the world was going to end. We didn't really know what was going to happen. So that there, I think the book has an urgency to it, in a way, do you know? And now we can sort of step back. I hope this is one of the pleasures of reading the book. I tried to construct it this way. As the reader, you know more than the characters. Do you know that there's going to be a time when we we we understand the virus is not past long during on surfaces do, there's certain things that we know that I think can give us an intimacy when we engage with the characters, and make us root for some of the things they do and shake our heads at some of the other things. They do, they're not so great.

Traci Thomas 15:01

That makes sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So in addition to the book being a Covid novel, which we've talked about, it is, like I said before, sort of genre. You can't define it. I don't feel like you can define it. I feel like I've seen some places people say it's a thriller, and I'm like, Well, is it a thriller? Like, I don't know. But I don't feel like it's just like, I don't know, I feel like it's doing a lot of things. That's probably the best way of saying it. And one of the things that it does really well is it alternates through perspectives. We have all these different characters who are related to in some way, to this central couple, Darla and Theo. Some of the characters we get in third person. Some of them we get in first person. And I'm wondering how those decisions come to you. How did you decide that we would get these moments, you know, with Ruby, where it's first person versus or that, like we would be closest to her, or how are you thinking about all of that part, like actually putting the story down on paper. Did it go through phases? Was it ever told just from one person's perspective, or did you always know it would be kind of multi perspective?

Regina Porter 16:11

Someone asked me about the connections in in because I think that's something I do in my writing and but I think I've experienced this in my life where where people have these strange connections, or, or people come into my life, or I've heard of other people's lives that they've that they've lost suddenly, or, and they return again. And it's just a very New York thing, it feels like to me, but in terms of structure, Darla and Theo live in a building in Park Slope, and a young man moves into that building called the teenager in a Cardi B T shirt, And he has a real name, but that's how Theo kind of sees him, and he sort of is a connection to other characters, too, and so I don't know. I don't have a clear answer for it. I think it just kind of the world just kind of builds and builds, because that's how I experience New York and encountering people.

Traci Thomas 17:26

Is the picture behind you on the wall, the picture of the boy in the Cardi B T shirt from the book?

Regina Porter 17:31

Yes, it is.

Traci Thomas 17:33

I had to go back and check the book.

Regina Porter 17:37

And speaking of six degrees of separation, my hairstylist, her son is extremely talented, and she was doing my hair, twisting my hair, one afternoon, and I said, Oh, that's, that's just fabulous. Her daughter's really talented, too. And she said that, that my son did that. And I said, you know, I think I'm going to, I have this idea, because I couldn't use an image of Cardi B, obviously, so, and so I commissioned that from him. He's a very good artist. Yes, I wanted to support both of them.

Traci Thomas 18:13

Yeah, well, let's talk a little bit about the art in the book. There's maybe like 15 pictures throughout the book that show up. Why did you want to include those? What does that do? Like, what are you doing with those? Or hoping to do with those?

Regina Porter 18:30

Art and white spaces give us an opportunity to pause and think about what we've read. They also allow us to look at a scene in our chapter in a new light or a new way. Sometimes, for me, that picture, for example, I don't want to ruin it for the readers, but is about how the young man is seen. Do you know, and his back like how we are often seen. So since we're talking about identity, I think the pictures also explore identity, from darla's identity, you know, and later chapters and rubies and they help ground me as a writer in the world, sometimes I'll write now I'll just know intuitively an image needs to be here, and I'm not clear about the image, and I'll keep writing, and then by the time I've reached the end, I can look at the whole novel and and and figure out which images I need or want and begin searching for them.

Traci Thomas 19:48

Yeah, yeah, that's so interesting. What about the chapter titles themselves? You You have chapter titles that have actual words. It's not just like one or whatever. So how do you. Think about naming those.

Regina Porter 20:03

Well, the teenager in the Cardi B T shirt, which is the second chapter in the novel I came up with, because Theo sees the young man, not as a young man, but as a teenager in a Cardi B T shirt, and then, usually, there's some element in the chapter that sparks a title. And I think, and that's a great question, by the way, those titles, because I don't always write in a linear fashion, those titles actually helped propel me forward, in a way, and open a door for perhaps how the following chapter will be plotted, or what I might need to come back to, if that makes any sense.

Traci Thomas 20:57

You don't write in a linear way. How do you write? What does that mean? What does your process look like?

Regina Porter 21:04

I don't always know where the story is going. I follow the characters, and then once I have a draft, I will go back and give the novel a shape or structure. Some of the structure is in place. But I might say, for example, with Ruby scene with her mom, who owns a bookstore that was earlier and it structurally, it wasn't right. I knew it was meant to be there because that also informs Ruby, so it's just how the relationships in the novel unfold might move around. So it's not always a to b, sometimes it's a to c, and then I go back to B and I rediscover a character from a different perspective.

Traci Thomas 22:01

Yeah, I want to ask you a little bit about the characters' names. You've got a lot of characters. They all have names. How do you name your characters? Where do those come from for you?

Regina Porter 22:20

Well, some of them, like Ruby, comes from the novel I was working on. When I stopped, there was a character in the travelers named Ruben Applewood, and he died suddenly, and he was one of my favorite characters. And I was frustrated that he had to die. And so I thought, Oh, Ruby, I'm gonna name maybe Ruby is his daughter, but it didn't. She ended up in, she ended up in the rich people have gone away. So that's how I initially came up with Ruby's name. Darla. I love horror films. I love a television show called supernatural, and I'm going to say one of my all time favorite characters on Supernatural was a character named Darla. So I named Darla after Darla because she was one of my favorite characters. Very different character.

Traci Thomas 23:22

I thought you were gonna say Darla from Little Rascals.

Regina Porter 23:24

No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Traci Thomas 23:29

Amazing. What part of this book was easy for you to write, and what part of it was the hardest for you to write?

Regina Porter 23:38

I have to say, even though I come from a playwriting background, the dinner scene was challenging just building and building and building and writing Theo was challenging at times because he's not an easy character. But I have to someone once said, your your heroes are only as good as your villains. And sometimes, I guess he's an anti hero in some ways. So I really struggled with him, just trying to understand his way of thinking. Darla too Ruby at times, just getting because she's in Japan. Just I have been to Japan. I have family members in Japan, friends, but I wasn't able to go during covid, and that was really a little frustrating for me. So just trying to interview people and get certain things right. And the hardest part is faith that, or was fate that it would come together, because I didn't see the ending I but I knew I was writing toward it, and then when it came.

Traci Thomas 24:55

Yeah, I have a question about Theo. So the book. This is not a spoiler, because this is how the book opens, but the book opens with Theo and his sexual proclivities, and we find out what Theo's kink is, yeah, and I'm curious to know why you wanted to start this book with that?

Regina Porter 25:15

Because that's what came to me, because I see this as a book about, sort of a psychological thriller about what happens when our lifestyles are forced to change. And that happened for a lot of people, and this was a very heightened way of his lifestyle changing, because people weren't going out much, right? And so he's forced, and so something that is just part of his being. I think of the song too. When I get that feeling I need sexual healing. Sexual healing, you know, I think that's how he approaches sex, but his inclinations are kind of hampered by the pandemic. I think how he likes to have sex influences how he functions in the world, and I think he's a highly functioning person. And so I thought, Oh, that's interesting, because I can go with that. That's an interesting and I also think, though, human way of looking at the pandemic, and also an entertaining way.

Traci Thomas 26:32

Yeah, yeah. This is not a spoiler, because it's on all the blurb copy. So I'm going to just say, if you can find this information easily, I don't consider it a spoiler, but Darla, who's Theo's wife, goes missing in the book, and she's white. She's blonde, and as I'm sure, people who are alive currently and have ever thought about missing white women, it becomes a thing, a cultural thing. It blows up. What? What was interesting to you about this whole like, what missing white woman trope? Why did you want to explore this? What did you feel like you wanted to think about or add to in this conversation?

Regina Porter 27:18

I wanted to explore a friendship, because her best friend is Ruby, and Ruby is seeing this blow up, and Ruby's getting to see how the search for Darla plays out. And she's a privileged black woman, but it makes her think about her privilege. Yes, I don't think it's a spoiler to say that. So it was also an opportunity to explore friendships, and when someone stops and goes, Oh, my God, do we have the same privilege? What is privilege? I'm privileged. And how would this play out? I'll add this to last night I was listening to NPR, and they said that a study since covid has shown that African American women, I may have the number wrong, are 30% more likely to have something go wrong during labor. So this whole idea of value in life, you know, and lives even before a child is born. And so I think these issues are there, but they're playing out through relationships, human relationships and characters. I hope that answers your question.

Traci Thomas 28:36

It does, yeah. I want to shift to your writing process a little bit. Something that I always love to ask writers is, how do you write how many hours a day, how often do you listen to music? Or know, are you in your home? Are you out in the world? Are there snacks and beverages? Are there rituals? And I guess for you, does it differ when you're writing a novel, your process versus when you're writing a play?

Regina Porter 29:01

Um, it does differ. I think when I'm writing a play, I need to be out in the world more listening to people, not necessarily listening to their dialog. But no two people speak the same way, so the rhythm is very important. And I really? I really pay attention to the rhythm of speech for novels one, one thing is consistent. I need coffee. Coffee is part of my How do you take your coffee? I take my coffee with milk, no sugar. I used to take it with sugar, but the past few years, gosh, it's been like five, six years. Now I don't have sugar in my coffee, and I usually walk my dog. I'm a morning person. I had, I had to be, I think now. Naturally, I'm wee hours of the morning writer. But that shifted when I became a parent, and I I started getting up early in the morning to write, as opposed to 12am to three. I'm being my original group, you know. So I had to really, yeah, I had to really reframe my my writing patterns. I don't write every day. I know, for example, say, now a new novel is is forming even as we're talking so I'm watching a lot of movies. Movies give me a lot of joy. I don't think it's a coincidence that people say, well, sometimes the novel reads like a film. It's because I watch a lot of films. It's what I do to unwind. But I also think it informs my work.

Traci Thomas 30:57

Yeah, it's so funny. I this one definitely reads like a film to me, I for sure, like, was imagining some of the characters. And, like, I was like, who could play this person? Like, this is, um, were there any specific movies you were watching while you wrote the rich people have gone away.

Regina Porter 31:15

Oh my gosh, probably older movies, like the third man. I'm not a literary snob, and I think that's a blessing as a writer. So I can say that I have watched Game of Thrones so many times, but I think if you think about the the the power plays, the characters, the flaws these things are, are fascinating. And, of course, the dragon

Traci Thomas 31:45

So, yeah, yeah, you didn't give us any dragons in your book. Don't tease the people. If you guys read this book, you're getting no dragons.

Regina Porter 31:54

Oh no, no, maybe another time you'll get dragons, not in this one.

Traci Thomas 31:58

I'm not a big dragon person, so I'm very grateful. You know, yeah, I am not a Game of Thrones person, but everyone else in my family is. So I've seen a little bit, but it's not, it's not for me. But I do, I do love, I love a family drama, whether it's fantasy or reality. I love family drama, which I think is what I really like, really enjoyed about your book, I just love those dynamics of people who are beholden to each other for certain reasons, but also like, don't necessarily want to be Yeah. Like, don't I just love that, um, what's a word you can never spell correctly on the first try?

Regina Porter 32:39

Oh, my gosh. Maybe doppelganger.

Traci Thomas 32:44

That's a hard one. There's so many letters.

Regina Porter 32:51

Mississippi, pause, yeah, and go, wait, wait.

Traci Thomas 32:55

I have to do like. I can't just spell it. I have to do like, M, i, s, s, i, s, i, p, p, i, yeah. Are you generally a good speller?

Regina Porter 33:04

I'm a I'm a decent speller. I'm a decent speller. My vision isn't great, so sometimes they're typos because of that.

Traci Thomas 33:13

I'm a terrible speller. But I usually when people can't think of a word, like, right away, it's because they're like, kind of good spellers. That's my that's my analysis, my unofficial analysis. For people who like the book, the rich people have gone away. What is something? What are some other books you would recommend that are maybe in conversation with what you've created?

Regina Porter 33:38

Well, I love The Talented Mr. Ripley I've said that before. I love any book by Walter, Mosley, Chester, Heinz, was it Cotton Comes to Harlem? Oh, my God, I'm drawing a blank, but I have to tell you, it's a different genre, but I love Octavia Butler's Oh, I'm forgetting the title, the talents, Parable of the Talents. Yes, I there was one point when I was reading, reading the book, and I just remember sobbing, just sobbing. And I think she was, we know this now about her, but she was ahead of her time, and how she wrote about relationships, also against the backdrop of pandemics, so and in the world changing in different in in different lifestyles, right? I think she was really ahead of her her time. I don't like genre labeling, because someone might miss out on Octavia Butler, because she's. Sci fi writer, but I think she was so much more, and she was ahead of her time. So that's why it takes me a minute. And when I say I'm not a snob, or I've learned not to be a snob. Obviously, Baldwin, another country big, messy novel, but I love it. Giovanni's Room. I love Robert Jones, the prophet. You know? I just, they're just so many. It's a hard and Percival Everett, who's written something like 30 books, right? And now knows his moment.

Traci Thomas 35:35

Yeah I just, every time I think about how many books he's written, I'm just like, Wait, what are you I mean, I know there's other authors who write even more than him, but it is truly that level of output is impressive, just in and of itself. But he's also so talented that I'm just like, Wait, you're not just putting out books. You're putting out, like, good books every year for 40 years, basically.

Regina Porter 36:00

And I should I my favorite Toni Morrison book is Song of Solomon. As as I've grown older, I love Sula even more. It may i surpass it in some way, but my I think it's still Song of Solomon, but it's the friendship and the relationship between those two women in Sula and I tried to have some of that in the rich people have gone away with how friendships become fractured. But also, I should give a nod to to Zora Neale Hurston, because she always makes me pause to make sure I have a healthy relationship between an African American man and woman in the novel, I think there's some beautiful things in The Rich People Have Gone Away, and one of my favorite is Irvin's relationship with his with his wife, Nadine, and a conversation he actually has with his son who does not understand everything about the relationship. I think there's a point when the son says, The teenager in the Cardi B T shirt says, Well, Dad, do you love your your Blackness more, or do you love mom more? And he said, I don't see these two things as competing. I love both of these things. Do you know the father having that conversation with the mom? There's some other scenes when someone becomes sick and bringing over food these I loved writing these scenes, and I write these scenes because of Janie in their eyes. Were Watching God and Zora Neale Hurston and and her love for southern folk, you know and, and how that southernness travels. I'm kind of fascinated by, what is it, Not Like Us, right? And I keep I see the southern progression in that song, in that video, and it fascinates me. Do you know? If that makes sense.

Traci Thomas 38:39

Say more! I want you to say more about that.

Regina Porter 38:42

Well, I can't, because I may be thinking about writing something, but I sit Okay, oh, my God. Oh, my God, he's managed to do so many young black people have left the church. I don't go to church regularly, but Lamar got so many people together and and that in the scene, the black and white scene, in the in the house like right? It feels southern. It might not be. There's something in the great migration in that video that blows my mind. It blows my mind. And there's something in the Great Migration, in the way Irvin and Nadine, they've carried that with them, and also a responsibility to to help others. Do you. And they're in the flawed, yes, but that's also Zora Neale Hurston. That's her gift to all of us.

Traci Thomas 39:47

Yeah, speaking of Nadine, she she was the character that I think I related to the most, because she was a dancer and I was a dancer.

Regina Porter 39:57

I'm glad to hear you say that; I get worried that she's gonna be overlooked. She's one of my personal favorite characters.

Traci Thomas 40:04

Yeah, and she went to NYU, and I went to NYU, and I she was there at the same time as me, ish, and like, I just, I think that was one of the other things I really enjoyed, is like, for anyone who spent any time in New York, any real time, not just like, you know, a weekend, but any who's lived there, even you know for a summer or whatever, I just felt like you get New York. So right in this book, and I know a lot of books are set in New York, I know a lot of people have lived in New York, but I don't always feel like I see a New York that I know in New York novels, and I felt like in this book, I not only did I know the city, even though I haven't lived there in years, I knew the city that you were writing about, and I also felt like I knew those people in the city. And I think sometimes the city can feel separate from the characters in a lot of like New York novels, and I felt like you really nailed the New York Cityness of it all.

Regina Porter 41:08

Yes. Oh, thank you for saying that. It means a lot to me, and I don't always know what's going to happen, beat for beat for beat. In retrospect, once it's laid out, it makes sense, because we can almost be led to believe that Nadine and Irvin and the teenager and the Cardi B T shirt are invisible. Do you know? But they aren't. So the framing whose story takes is the most important. That's a tricky thing, right?

Traci Thomas 41:47

It really is.

Regina Porter 41:48

It's tricky.

Traci Thomas 41:49

Okay, well, this is my last question for you. If you could have one person dead or alive read this book, who would you want it to be?

Regina Porter 41:58

James Baldwin. James Baldwin, I was going to say Tony Morrison, um or Zora Neale Hurston, but I think James Baldwin, because he was, he was born here, but he also, his people were from the south, so, but he was born here, and I wonder what he would think of this New York City.

Traci Thomas 42:18

Yeah. I love that so much. Well, everyone, please go get your copy of The Rich People Have Gone Away. It is out now. You can get it wherever you get your books. I read it off the page. I didn't listen to the audiobook, but I did see you have multiple narrators, so that's kind of cool. So you can also check out the audiobook, people. Regina, thank you so much for being here. This was lovely.

Regina Porter 42:40

Oh, thank you for having me, and I'm glad it worked out.

Traci Thomas 42:43

Yeah, and everyone else, we will see you in the stacks.

All right, y'all that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening, and thank you to Regina for being my guest. I'd also like to say a huge thank you to Vanessa DeJesus for helping to make this conversation possible. Remember, our book club pick for August is Master Slave Husband Wife by Ilyon Woo. We will be discussing the book on Wednesday, August 28th with Jay Ellis. If you love the show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/thestacks to join The Stacks Pack and subscribe to my newsletter at TraciThomas.substack.com. Make sure you're subscribed to The Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts and if you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, be sure to leave a rating and a review. For more from The Stacks follow us on social media at thestackspod on Instagram, Threads and TikTok and at thestackspod_ on Twitter and you can check out my website at thestackspodcast.com. This episode of The Stacks was edited by Christian Dueñas, with production assistance from Lauren Tyree. Our graphic designer is Robin McCreight and our theme music is from Tagirijus. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

]]>Ep. 333 Writing a COVID Novel with Regina PorterEp. 332 For the Black Boys with LaDarrion WilliamsStacks AssistantWed, 14 Aug 2024 07:00:00 +0000https://www.thestackspodcast.com/2024/08/14/ep-332-ladarrion-williams65d2b7a49de6215855aa3aaa:66084694f1e135566828a41a:66ba08ec6505e805dda7b404

Today we’re joined by the multitalented LaDarrion Williams about his fantasy debut Blood at the Root, which re-imagines a magical academy as an HBCU. LaDarrion explains how being a playwright differs from being a novelist, how he has navigated criticism from readers, and why he wanted to write a Young Adult story for Black boys.

The Stacks Book Club pick for August is Master Slave Husband Wife by Ilyon Woo. We will discuss the book on August 28th with Jay Ellis.

LISTEN NOW

Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Google Podcasts | Overcast | Stitcher | Transcript

  

Everything we talk about on today’s episode can be found below in the show notes and on Bookshop.org and Amazon.

To support The Stacks and find out more from this week’s sponsors, click here.

Connect with LaDarrion: Instagram | Twitter
Connect with The Stacks: Instagram | Twitter | Shop | Patreon | Goodreads | Substack | Subscribe

To contribute to The Stacks, join The Stacks Pack, and get exclusive perks, check out our Patreon page. If you prefer to support the show with a one time contribution go to paypal.me/thestackspod.

The Stacks participates in affiliate programs. We receive a small commission when products are purchased through links on this website.

TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Traci Thomas 0:00

Traci, welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Traci Thomas, and today we are joined by LaDarrion Williams. He is a playwright, filmmaker, screenwriter and actor, and now he is also the debut author of the novel Blood at the Root. Blood at the Root is a YA fantasy story about a teen runaway who arrives at an HBCU for magical youths. The book is all about community, history, black culture, and it is as thrilling as it is innovative. Today, LaDarrion and I talk about how he came up with this story, why it was important to write it for young Black boys, and also how he's handled criticism, both as a playwright and now as an author. There are no spoilers on today's episode. Remember actor and author Jay Ellis will be back on The Stacks to discuss our August book club pick Master Slave Husband Wife, by Ilyon Woo. You can hear that episode on August 28th. Quick reminder, everything we talk about on each episode of the stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. If you love this show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/thestacks and join the stacks pack for just $5 a month. You get to be part of the best bookish community around. You get to join us on Discord. Come to our monthly virtual book club meetups. You get a bonus episode each month, and you get to know that by joining the stacks pack, you make it possible for me to make this podcast every single week. Another fun perk of the stacks pack is that you get a shout out on this very podcast. And for those of you who want to support the show but maybe are less interested in an interactive community experience, you can go to Tracithomas.substack.com and subscribe to my newsletter. There you can check out everything I'm up to get my hot takes on books and pop culture. It goes right to your email inbox, and you don't have to interact with a single other human again. That's Tracithomas.substack.com, okay, that's it. Thank you. Now it's time for my conversation with LaDarrion Williams.

Okay, everybody, I'm really excited. I have a debut author as well as a playwright here on the podcast. Their book is called Blood at the Root. It is a YA magical fantasy HBCU, black boy-centric story. The author is LaDarrion Williams. LaDarrion, welcome to The Stacks.

LaDarrion Williams 2:50

All right. Thank you for having me.

Traci Thomas 2:51

I'm so excited to talk to you. Before we talk about the book, I'm just going to tell everybody our quick origin story. As many of you know, my favorite bookstore is Reparations Club here in LA, and I do a thing with them on independent bookstore day, where I go and I recommend books all day, and I just am, like, their guest bookseller. And when I was there, I just got in there for my shift, and this person walks in, this guy walks in, and he's like, kind of, you know, looking around, kind of being quiet, whatever. And then kind of comes over and is like, Hey, my name's LaDarrion Williams, and my book's coming out really soon. And we were all like, Oh, congratulations. Like, what's your book called? He was like, it's called Blood at the Root. And Jazzi, the team at rep Club was like, Oh my God. We have that in the back. We have the ARC in the back. So exciting. Oh my god. And I was like, I don't know about this, because I'm not really a YA fantasy girl at all. And you were like, telling me about the book, and I was like, Okay, well, let's just take a picture, because this sounds like this might be a thing. And now here we are talking about your book. Your book has been so successful so far, I saw you posted on Twitter that you've already sold 20,000 copies in two months, which is huge.

LaDarrion Williams 4:02

Very huge for a debut author, especially a debut black author, very huge. Thank you.

Traci Thomas 4:10

So I want you to tell people in about 30 seconds or so, just about the book you can do a better job than what I just did.

LaDarrion Williams 4:16

Oh, pressure! Yes. Blood at the Root is a young adult fantasy. It's a contemporary fantasy about a young Black boy named Malik Baron who gets accepted into a magical HBCU called Cayman University, and he must go there to learn about his ancestral magic, meet new friends, but also uncover some dark secrets surrounding his mother's mysterious disappearance. And you know, he has to figure out some clues, because somebody there may or may not have something to do with her disappearance. So yeah, it's a first in a trilogy. I'm currently working on the sequel. So for those who read the book in one day and have to wait, sorry, I'm working on the sequel right now.

Traci Thomas 4:52

Okay, let's start there. I wasn't going to start there, but let's start there. You're working on the sequel. When you started the first book, did you know it was going to be a trilogy?

LaDarrion Williams 5:01

So when I started on the first book, technically it was supposed to be a TV show, but when I went into the book, I knew it was supposed to be three and possibly some spin offs, you know. But yeah, it's three, and I'm so glad that my publishers, Penguin Random House contracted me for three books. So, it's really great as a Black fantasy writer, to be able to tell his story in a full scope in three books. So yeah, a whole trilogy.

Traci Thomas 5:33

Okay, and don't be mad at me, but I have to ask this question, how long is it going to take you to finish the second book? Like, what's the wait time for those of us interested?

LaDarrion Williams 5:42

I can't give a specific date, but let's just say it comes out next summer.

Traci Thomas 5:46

Oh, okay, so we don't have to wait long.

LaDarrion Williams 5:48

No, we don't have to wait. You don't have to wait like, 2, 3, 4, years. Yeah, I have a full draft. I'm currently I'm in that. You know that weird? Why did they contract me to write a book. I'm not good-

Traci Thomas 6:03

The self-doubt phase.

LaDarrion Williams 6:04

It's the self doubt phase, which I hate, but I know it's just one of those things you just have to work through. And it's just, it's like building a house, right? You have to lay the foundation, and all the, all everything, and so, yeah, it's just a weird phase. I'm with the book right now. It's just, I'm like, This is not good, but it's gonna get there. It's a process.

Traci Thomas 6:25

Did you feel that way about the first book? Did you feel like, Oh, my God, it's not good. What am I doing? Why did they buy this book?

LaDarrion Williams 6:33

I felt well because the first book poured out of me easier because I was so fired up at the time, I was very hurt and I was very depressed and disappointed about, like, just the way the industry was going I see at the time, and so I was just it was pouring out of me. It was very challenging when I ended up working with an editor, because my editor was asking questions about story and and plot, and I'm like, so that means I have to unravel this whole entire book and go back and start over. But that's the again, that's a part of the process. And, yeah, but this one is that sophomore, you know that sophomore book syndrome, it's hard because you're building, you're expanding, I'm expanding the world in the magic systems, and introducing new characters.

Traci Thomas 7:20

And also you're still confined to the world. Still have to stay. Like, I think sometimes maybe people are like, done with their first book, and they're like, Okay, I'm done with this for now. And it's like, you still have to be there. But also, like, make it bigger and different. But also like, you're still with Malik. Like, we're still here.

LaDarrion Williams 7:41

Yeah, he's, he's growing and he but he's also dealing with some of the ramifications from the first book. And how does that? My editor is calling it internal and external stakes, like, we have to really nail down those that in this book, and so it's hard to balance, because I want to, it's college, right? I want to have some fun and have him go, you know, go to these different type of classes for 200 pages, but, like, we still have to keep the, you know, the internal and external plot. So that's something I'm learning with this book, is making sure those are still intact.

Traci Thomas 8:19

Yeah, okay, I had a totally different plan for this interview, but I'm already pivoting. We're just gonna go because I, well, I have a background in theater, and you're a playwright, and so I want to know sort of for you, as you're talking about internal, external, I'm thinking, right? Because in a play, you don't do internal necessarily, like that's the actor's job, and so you write the text. And, you know, some people do and don't believe in subtext, and that's probably a different conversation. But like, you write a story, and it's almost all plot and the sort of internal character development stuff generally comes from the actor. So has that been like a big challenge for you trying to figure out how to draw that out?

LaDarrion Williams 8:59

Such a good question. It's been a very big challenge for me, even after Blood at the Root came out, writing a book is very hard, and it takes a lot of craft, and writing a play is very hard, but what I love about theater, and that's why theater is always it's always going to be my first love, is that when I'm tinkering with the play when I'm struggling with it, wrestling with it, I can hand it over to a director and actors, and we can go into a theater or a rehearsal hall and just grind it out. I literally just left a playwriting residency where we were in the rehearsal hall for like eight to nine hours a day, just I was rewriting. I was working with a dramaturg. I was I was changing. I was literally rewriting the whole play every single day, because I was being inspired by actors and director and the conversations that we were having in the room with the book. It's just me, literally today, I was working on it this morning. It's just me and this character, Malik. I have to be this vessel for this young boy to tell me his story. And there's all. Lot, and I want to add my things into it. But he wants to know, this is how my story want. This is how I want my story to go. It's so it's still internal, but you don't, there's no extra actors for me to, you know, work this out with, um and wrestle, wrestle out the the scenes with so it's, it's a big challenge. Writing a book is hard, y'all.

Traci Thomas 10:19

Do you ever think about bringing, like, some of the ways that plays are worked through to your novel writing, whether that's like giving pages to people or like, even having actors read it out loud to you so you can hear it? Like, have you ever considered that kind of stuff?

LaDarrion Williams 10:34

I think that's going to be something I'm going to consider. Like, I'm still in that awkward phase, yeah. Like, not ready for people to read it yet, not ready for people to read it because they because they were like, LaDarrion, you have to turn this book in in a month. You should writing 24 hours a day. But maybe with, like, maybe once I get, you know, into copy edits and line edits, maybe I can hand it off to people who are actors. And I'm just saying, hey, what do you think about that scene. Like, if you're reading this, is it? Because I want to make sure, too, while writing a book, I want to make sure it's still cinematic, yeah. And that's some that was some great feedback that I got from book one day where people were saying, Oh my gosh. Like, this needs to be a TV show, because I can see the world. I can one person was like, I can feel the Alabama heat. You know? You know that the humidity, that the music and the the laughter and like the dialects of the characters, so I infuse a lot of my screenwriting and playwriting myths into this book. So definitely, once I get to a comfortable place.

Traci Thomas 11:37

Okay, I definitely was reading this and was like, I gotta see it, I gotta see it, and that's coming.

LaDarrion Williams 11:43

It's coming. I can't say too much on it, but we are developing it as a TV show. So it's, it's, it's coming, where it's, it's gonna be fun, like, just some of the stuff that we had, you know, in the meetings, like just some of the ideas that me and my show runners are talking about, it's gonna be epic. It's just gonna be great to see Black people on screen just wielding magic and having fun, and also infusing a lot of that HBCU culture. Because my show learners went to an HBCU, so it's so great to they. They're providing that that air as well, like, like, the little secrets that you know, that a lot of us don't know about HBCUs. It's gonna be fun to intermingle that with magic on a TV show.

Traci Thomas 12:25

Yeah, I love it. Okay, I'm gonna go back now to what I was planning to start with, which is the book starts with an author's note, and you write to young black boys about sort of being represented on the page. And you know, my assumption from reading that and having heard you talk and stuff, is that, you know you're really writing towards Black boys. And I want to know why? Why do you feel like there's a need to be directed towards black boys, as opposed to black children more broadly. And also, have you heard from Black boys? What are they telling you about the book?

LaDarrion Williams 13:01

Yeah, I wrote, you know, we always hear authors say that, you know, I wrote the book for me because I didn't see myself reflected in the pages, right? So when I was in high school, there was Percy Jackson. I love Percy Jackson. I heard there's like, 16 books now, but when I was in high school, there were only three, okay? And like, I love that story. But I was like, well, from the cover, I was like, he definitely don't look like me. And the way in the pages, I was like, well, he doesn't talk like a country black boy from Alabama. I'm from Alabama. And I was like, just looking at my friends growing up, and how we used to love, like, you know, like those little Disney original movies on Friday nights, how they used to be like, they have, like, the fantasy ones, they have the contemporary ones. Um, and I just over the years, not seeing myself reflecting in the books. It actually made me stop reading for a very long time, because I was a I was an avid reader. I even read the the entire Left Behind series.

Traci Thomas 13:54

Don't judge me, but I don't even know what that is.

LaDarrion Williams 13:56

It was like the Christian dogma about Jesus coming back and rapturing everybody. It's a big fantasy theory, a big Christian series, and it was like 12 or 13 books. And I read the entire series as like a like a 14 year old. But for years I stopped reading and and when I was seeing, I remember seeing, like children of blood and bone making a lot of headway. And I was like, and I saw the hate you give, and I was like, whoa, whoa, what's happening in the book industry. And so I started reading those books, and I started kind of getting back in and then after Hollywood was telling me no about my short film A blooded root in the script, I was like, Well, I want to get back into reading, because I just need something to inspire me. And I went to Barnes and Noble in Burbank and and I and I asked the clerk, I said, Hey, I'm trying to get back into reading. I would love to read some fantasy books with black boys at the forefront. And mind you, at the time, this was during like 2020, like we all know a lot. Going on, yeah, pandemic and racial civil unrest. And I just needed to escape. I just needed to not see me as a black man being constantly killed on screen and in books and in plays. And I because it was just I couldn't get away from that. And the clerk took me over to the YA section, and she was looking up and down, and I was looking up and down, and at that time in the young adult fantasy space, we really couldn't find a book with a black boy on the cover, and she looked very embarrassed, yeah. And I was just like, it made me feel like that 17 year old kid again. That's that quick reading all those years. Um, and you know, there was some black boys in books, but they were, like, relegated to like, the side, right? Like, best friend, black best friend, best friend, and or, like they were getting killed. And I'm not saying those stories are not important. They're very, very important, right? Um, I wanted, I wanted to see the interiority of a young black boy's life, going through the motions, like falling in love, having magic, having and so I, at that moment, I declared, I said, Well, I'm gonna go write this book. Then I'm gonna turn this screenplay, because Hollywood kept telling, you know, into a book. And so I locked myself in my apartment for 12 days straight, living off of Cheez Its and Oreos. I wrote the first draft of Blood at the Root the novel. And, yeah, that was like, two, three years ago.

Traci Thomas 16:25

How long did it take you to write the draft? Do you remember?

LaDarrion Williams 16:28

Yeah, 12 days. That's it. Just it took 12 days to crank out a whole draft.

Traci Thomas 16:33

Wow, that's incredible. Yeah. Okay. And have you heard from black boys? Now that the books in the world, what are they doing?

LaDarrion Williams 16:40

Yeah, yeah. They're like, even, like, some of my cousins that they're like, 1716, or 17 years old, and they still live in the same neighborhood that Malik grew up in, and they're reading it, and they was like, like, well, they call me Montel because my middle name is Mattel. No relations to Montel, yeah. But they were telling me, like, man, like, thank you so much for writing this. Because one they were like, We got to, we get to see how you grew up and in the same spot. Like they were like, these are the same streets that we still run around. But like, you know, 20s, like, 1520, years ago, you were running these same streets, going to the candy lady house, going to the basketball court, and for them to read, that is so beautiful. And they're telling me like they feel seen and they feel heard. I'm had I did some signings for young black boys at a magnet school, and it was so beautiful to see, because this magnet program were only created for black children. And seeing those here in LA, in LA, I forgot what it was. I forgot the school. I know it's so it was somewhere in like Brentwood, and it was like these beautiful black children, like coming in, rushing in to get free books, and they were picking up the book, and I remember seeing one boy like putting the book beside him, like his faith. He was like, Yo, like. And I heard his friend, he was like, Yo, that looks like you do like that looks like you. And that's very powerful. And that's why I told my publishers it was a non negotiable for me. Even before signing this contract, I was like, I have to have a young black boy in a hoodie on the cover, because imagery is very powerful and it can inspire like everything I remember growing up, but not buddy and The Watsons Go to Birmingham were the only, some of the only books I've seen with a black boy on the cover that looked like me. So I knew imagery was it was very inspiring. So to hear that from parents and librarians and teachers and educators saying, I can finally give a book to some of the black boy students in our in our classrooms, because they look like him. They Malik talks like them, they can, you know, they can see like, Oh, I do matter. My story matters as well because I came from the same place that Malik comes from, or I experienced some of the same things he experienced. So it's beautiful. It's such a beautiful thing to see.

Traci Thomas 18:54

I love that. Yeah, I want to ask you one more thing about the author's note, yeah, why did you want to put it at the beginning of the book. What were you hoping to impart to your readers before they ever even meet Malik?

LaDarrion Williams 19:06

I mean, the author's note was, I wrote it. I didn't know how they were going to put it in the book. I wrote an article about the same thing. My editors was like, it's so beautiful, how you articulate the need. I think it's, it's an inspiration to whoever gets in, like, you know, Malik may not talk the way you want him to talk. He may not act the way he you want him to act, because he's a 17 year old kid. I just need you to before you go in and read the author's note, to learn that this is a black boy, and this is his story, and he he has, he at the forefront. He's not he's going to deal with some trials and tribulations, of course, but I need people to understand like Malik is a type of boy that a lot of, I'm going to be honest, a lot of educators, a lot of teachers, push to the back and ignore a lot of even a lot of family members, a lot of people in the neighborhoods like. Like, Oh, that young boy. He's just acting like he's troublesome. He act, he acted like a thug. He acting like this. But don't even know. He has 1000 stories inside of him that's just waiting old. And it's also too a call out to the industry, yeah, to say that it shouldn't take this book to make it mainstream for a young, teenage black boy, and why a fantasy for you to see him and to know Him? And so, yeah, that's and I'm glad my editors and my publishers put it at the forefront, because I'm getting so many comments saying, man, like, like, people are like, I don't even read authors know, because I'm just ready to get to the story. But the way it's written, they're like, Oh, we know what type of tone this book is about to have. We about to see the poetry and the everydayness of black people living in the South like knowing that, you know our grandmothers and our aunties and our uncles, they may say some of the most outlandish things and some of the most things you like. Oh, you shouldn't be saying that. Yeah, but, but to know that there's there's poetry, because I think about my mom, who is a beautiful black woman who've been living in Alabama for 60 years, and don't she always feels like she doesn't. She's not represented a lot of the times in in media. And I think about my aunties and my uncles, who used to sit out in the front yard and tune on spit and spin out tobacco, right, and telling stories, and going to the candy lady house and sitting at the feet of your grandmother and learning about the wisdom of God, right? Because the matriarch of the family who holds the family together, that's what I poured into that. Author's note, it's not just a black boy journey, but this is what's poured into him, and this is what you're going to see throughout the book.

Traci Thomas 21:40

Yeah, and I think you do such a good job in the book of like, creating that community that you're talking about. There's so many characters in the book that are like archetypes in black families and black communities. And I really loved seeing that, like, Mama Aya, obviously, like, Uncle Sam is, like, that's the person you know.

LaDarrion Williams 21:58

Like, that's you know, you know who that is. He's like, drinking Hennessey and smoking cigars.

Traci Thomas 22:03

Exactly. And like, you know, Alexis, like, it's like, there's all these, it's not just Malik, who, you know, I mean, I would argue, like, kind of, based off what you're saying, is maybe the least recognizable archetype in the book, right? Because, like, we're, we don't get as many stories that center black boys who aren't, like, you know, perceived as, like, exceptional students who are sort of seen as, like, troublemakers or troubled but a lot of the other figures around him, like the the headmaster of the school, or what does he call, the chancellor, the chancellor, yeah, Chancellor. Like, that's a really recognizable version of a certain kind of black man, and like, and his mother as well. And so, like, I think I really liked, like, it's like, as soon as we even, like, learn their names. I was like, Oh, I know who that is, right? I said I wanted to talk about names, and that's where we'll go to how were you thinking of naming your characters? There's a lot of like, Creole in this book. The HBCU is not just for black Americans. It is Global Diaspora. The school is part of a network of other magical HBCUs, and they're all over the world. So you were, I know you were drawing on, like, different languages and different cultures, but like, how but like, how were you thinking about who got what name and what the name sounded like and looked like on the page?

LaDarrion Williams 23:27

Yeah, yeah, such a beautiful question. You know, in the black community, names are very, very important to us. And it's, it's often passed down. It's often, we often make up names. And some people, you know, you hear some people, like, Now, why would you name your baby dad? But like, I think we don't even know, but that comes from our ancestry, right? Like, we create names. Names have power, and when, when our ancestor was brought over here, what was the first thing that a lot of the colonial white people did? They took away the names. That was the first thing, because name how power it has identity. So I was very intentional on naming a lot of the characters, not just all willy nilly. And I'm gonna be honest, I did steal some of my family members names. And I go to Facebook like, I'm sorry, I gotta put your government name up in there. Yeah. But even, even down to like, Malik, Baron. Um, I was like, well, Malik, I knew what Malik mean. And I know, I know an actual my friend. She has a cousin, and he's like, the same age, and his name is Malik and, and what's beautiful to say? Like, he was like, I've never seen my name in a book before, so when he read, when he opened up the book, he was like, That's my name. Like, that's so cool. Even Baron by once, MD, like, it's very Haitian Creole. Like, I drew on a lot of inspiration from Asian Haitian cosmology and religion, because it's not talked about. I didn't, I didn't learn about the Haitian Revolution until I was in my 20s. Thank you Alabama School systems. But because the history of it was hidden away from it again, because they. Took away. That was the first it was the names, and it was the history behind the name. So like, Don yay. A lot of people say donja, donja Devere. I'm like, No, it's Don yay, because one of one of my favorite playwrights, his name is Donja R Love. He wrote a beautiful play called Sugar in our Wounds about two slave men falling in love. And I was just like, hey, I messaged her. I was like, hey, I really love the name Daniel, because it's spelled D, O, N, j, A, but, I was like, but it's so beautiful how you pronounce it. I was like, Can I use it for the book? And he was like, yeah. Like, use it. And so that's how I came up with Daniel Devereaux, Alexis, savon and Elijah, like, uses some Elijah comes from the Bible, right? Like, I know a lot of black people name the kids from the Bible, Mama, Aya, Mama, Aya. Is this like? Because we think of like, priestess, right? Mambos, right? M, A, M, B, O, like mambos. Those are the women priestess and voodoo and hoodoo, religion, spirituality. And so I wanted to name her mama Aya, because that there's power in that name. And Chancellor Taran. Because I was like, Okay, I need a Bougie name.

Traci Thomas 26:10

Yeah, for sure.

LaDarrion Williams 26:11

I was like, what's a Bougie- I was like, Ooh, Von Clay, like, Taron, and yeah, and all the tribes and the covid and I was like, I drew on a lot of Creole inspiration.

Traci Thomas 26:26

Speaking of, sort of, like, the history that's in the book, how much, how much research were you doing? And, like, how much of the magical stuff is completely made up by you, and how much of it draws on religious and spiritual practices in other places and in the States?

LaDarrion Williams 26:45

You know, just growing up in the South for me, like, I think my experience was a lot of research, because I had an interesting conversation with my mom, because she was like, when I first sold the book, she was like, she was like, Can I ask you a question? I was like, what's up? She was like, Why do you like magic? Like, why do you like magic? Like, because she was like, because you could tell there was still that, because you could say, growing up like Harry Potter was that, was that devil worshiping magic? And she was like, Why do you, why do you watch that devil? Why do you like that devil worshiping magic type stuff? And I was like, oh, okay, we're gonna have to have a conversation. And I was like, I was like, you see that cinnamon broom that's on your wall right now. She's like, Yeah. I was like, Where do you think they came from? Why do black people hang brooms on the wall? Like, especially cinnamon brooms. And I was like, you remember Auntie blah blah blah was sweet from the back of the house all the way to the front and all the way out in the sidewalk and up to the street? She's like, Yeah. She's like, Yeah, she used to do that all the time. I was like, Where do you think they came from? And, like in going through church, and I grew up in the Southern Baptist Church, people used to fall out in the spirit and talking tongues and be filled with the Holy Ghost and drink, you know, and do communion. I was like, that's who do. That was passed down from generations to generations. So, and I didn't realize that until I started. I was like, Wait a minute. I remember that. I remember that. And my mom, like, when you have, like, heartburn, you know, pour some mustard in a spoon and eat and eat some meat mustard, or rub an onion under your foot, because either, like, you're dealing with some type of ailment or illness. And I was like, all these home style remedies are passed down from my grandmothers and our great grandmothers. And I was like, that was beautiful, like the stories in the in the in the customs, that was like part of my research. But also for the Haitian Revolution, I was like, I found out there was a group of people down there. They believe they won the war because they called on the gods. And I was like, Gods. I was like, what kind of gods they got? And I realized, and I was like, Oh, wait, there's black gods, right, right, um, yeah. And I was like, because we only learn about Greek mythology, and I was like, there, there's Orisha, there's beautiful black women who are gods and goddesses, like, oh, shoot, and Oya, who will tear everything up if you make her mad, and Shango and Ogun, and it was so beautiful to learn all of that and to incorporate that into the book in the lens of a 17 year old black boy who's learning everything about his ancestry. Because, again, a lot of us don't know about our ancestry, right, because it was stolen away from us, but to put it back into the hands of the descendants is such a beautiful thing, and that's why that was kind of like a part of my research process.

Traci Thomas 29:27

Okay, so then let me ask you this. I always am fascinated this with YA authors, because there is a an expectation that you are going to teach the young people something, whether or not that is what you set out to do, it's usually something that's sort of pressed upon YA books, like this book has to teach kids or show kids something. But I know as a young person who read books, never YA books, I was always reading adult books that a lot of young people go to books to be entertained. Yeah, just like adults do. So how did you balance, sort of like, infusing your book with this history that we're talking about, of this magical, spiritual stuff, of the Haitian Revolution of, you know, there's a, I mean, there's a lot of things that are like being taught to us, I think, yeah, things that I learned, but also I'm assuming a lot of things that I knew that kids are learning for the first time. So how do you balance the entertainment and the like, teaching part of it?

LaDarrion Williams 30:28

Yeah, I think it's it comes from, like, if any writers are are listening, they're going to, if you read Sid fields, say the cat, right? There's like, plot beats that you would want to follow as you're writing your script or your play or your your novel, and there's a plot be called Fun and games. And fun and games is kind of like the promise of the premise type of thing. So obviously, with Blood at the Root the fun and games, the promise of the premise is the magical HBCU, right? So we see, I there's a chapter that literally falls under the line of the funny games where Malik is introduced to the HBCU, and he's seeing kids look just like him, creating mini tornados and jumping like 100 feet in the air to dunk a basketball. He's seeing them like run with speed and transform into like birds and animals. And he's seeing all of this, and it's not to teach you, oh, this is, this is it could be, and it can be seen as info dumping. But also it's like, no, this is fun, like, I this is kind of stroking, like the, oh, I wish I could go to that school, like people are reading it, like, I wish I can. I wish I can be a part of Cayman university, because I never felt like that, or getting that letter, right, getting that acceptance letter. So it's infusing that, but also trying to slip in, oh, like, there's the Haitian Revolution. Oh, there's, I kind of got a little bit of flack for it, but there was the watermelon scene where Malik was, like, this is kind of stereotypical, that watermelon is replenishing our magic. But also there's a history behind it, because we all know why watermelon is seen as stereotypical. Because black people were making money after slavery selling fruit. That's why they went into our neighborhoods and killed all the the sea, the trees that bear seat fruit seeds and and that's why they came up with those those stereotypes. So it's kind of like slipping in those little moments of like history. And some people may say, Okay, that was a little corny. Or some people like, Okay, I just want to be entertained. But I think for me writing, I stand on the shoulders of August Wilson and Lorraine Hansberry and and, you know, Toni Morrison, they were entertaining, but they also taught a lot of us, and Zora Neale Hurston as well, like they taught a lot of us, because I think it's because books are being banned, especially black books. I think it's important to infuse a lot of our black history into books, because it could be fun. It's not all about slavery, it's not all about the trauma and the strife of black people. There's some fun things that you know, our people did, and I think, you know, the generation should know and and to see it in a in a very entertaining way, it is hard. I will I will say it is very difficult to balance, and that's something I'm learning. I'm learning not only from Book Two, but I'm learning from book book one. I'm sorry, but book two as well.

Traci Thomas 33:18

Yeah, okay, you brought up getting flack. You brought up trauma. You were sort of, you know, the book has been pitched as like black boy joy, no racial trauma. And I know people on the internet have pushed back against that aggressively. You push back against their push back. So I do want to talk about it a little bit. I first, I think I want to know to you, what do you mean when you say there's no racial trauma in the book?

LaDarrion Williams 33:47

Yes, and I will say, like, because even making that tweet, you know, Twitter, you can only make at the time, you only make 140 characters, right? So I went back and I said, Oh, I'm so sorry. I actually misspoke. And let me clarify, um, at the time, I was very when I wrote bloody through the the TV show version, I was very angry, yeah, about the representation. And I was just very angry about, like, the state of the country and what we were going through. And I was just like, as a black man, and I'm looking to my nephew, who's 13, going off going going on 30, um, he's literally tight and yeah, and I was just like, he is at a he's at a point where he should be seeing black boys like him having fun and and falling in love and having cool, magical powers and having epic adventures. And at the time, when I wrote Blood at the Root, I was just only seeing black men just being shot and killed, right, and bleeding out on again, I'm a playwright, so it was in the play. It was in the playwriting world. It was in the it was on TV and film, and it was in books. And as a black man who was going through that every single day, yeah, I was like, I just want to escape this. Like we don't. Get to see the interiority of these black men who are shot and killed. We only see their lives being humanized after their death. Like when I say black lives matter, I don't. I don't mean it in death. I mean black dreams and black hopes and and fears and happiness and tears and so that's what I meant when I didn't want the focal point, and I should have put the word focal point in in a lot of my tweets, I didn't want the focal point of Malik's story to be racial trauma, yeah, and him getting getting killed by police. That's why I put him in a hoodie, because with Trayvon Martin, we really, during that time, we really didn't know who he was. That's why I love what Ava did with origin, right? She She provided a lot of the backstory to him, how he loved to laugh on the phone with his friends, how he loved going to the store. He loved Skittles. He loved like, the beauty. There was one scene where you saw the black boy sitting outside of the pool, but you just you. He still smiled, and he still like, late it's like the beauty of it. And so that's, that's why I that's where I come from. When I write, when I said that, I want to see the beauty of this of a black boy's life, because, again, like, I love that my nephew is so smart, and he loves video games and but also he has this type of wisdom that you don't really get to see on the page, right? That's why I wrote Tay. Like Tay is such and he loves to cook. We don't see young black boys loving to cook. We don't see, you know, Malik is smiling. He falls in love with and soon as he sees Alex Alexis, right? He goes on to this beautiful, poetic diatribe about, like, how beautiful she is, and how she reminds him of the summer rain and them going to the fairs and them going to the candy later house with 50 cents and giving her and eating sour like we don't get to see that in real time, unless, unless the black boy is taken out of the story and is killed. And that's where I was coming from when I said that. And I yeah, I did get a little pushback, but I was just, but I guess it's starting a conversation, because a lot of people were like, well, dang, we really don't get to see this. I do, and I have parents messaging me like, Thank you for writing Blood at the Root, because now my black boy feels seen, is to see him is to know him. That's what that's that's where I come from when I made those statements.

Traci Thomas 37:20

Yeah, and I think, like, what, what it made me think about, right, like this term, like racial trauma, I think it also makes me think about, like, what kind of trauma is not racialized, right? And like, what kind of trauma are black people, like, allowed to have that isn't police brutality or the legacy of like or like slavery, like depicted, right? And like in this case. And this is not a spoiler, because it's where the book starts. Malik is in foster care because his mother has been killed in this weird situation, and so he's taken away and like that is extremely traumatizing for a child. But is that racial trauma, you know, or, like, is that just traumatizing for kids and not? I mean, obviously we can get into the history of the foster care system and all of that, and like, everything in America is racialized. But when you sort of, when you take it to, like, just storytelling purposes, Nobody says that. Like, you know, I'm trying to think, like all those Pixar movies, it always starts with like, the mom dying or the dad dying. No one's like, oh yeah. No one's like, oh, Nemo has, like, racialized trauma. It's just like, this is a traumatic event that starts the action of the book or the movie. And so I was also kind of thinking about, like, what does it mean to be racial trauma versus just general trauma.

LaDarrion Williams 38:41

Yeah, general trauma, I think, yeah, it's so interesting black writers and creatives we hear, because we do hear a lot of we just want, we just, we just want black characters on in movies to not experience black trauma. And I, and I completely understand that, and I also understand where black writers are sometimes coming from. I think what's missing from the conversation our black trauma is only publicized or put on the screen to teach white people about our lives. And that's and that's what I really meant. I didn't for me just growing up. I just remember, right, like, just like a lot of the times we see white we see a lot of white people writing slave movies and a lot of and we only see the brutalization. And yes, and it happened, trust me, it did, yeah. But I love what one of my favorite playwright, Dominic mariso, she wrote a play called confederates, and it talks about slavery, but also it dips between that time and this time. But she said, Yeah, but she was like, I know it talks about slaves, and that's the trauma. But she also was like, Y'all do realize that slaves were talking right? They were, they were they were laughing and they were cracking up. They were cracking jokes on each other, and they was dancing. And like a lot of the dance, a lot of the Tick Tock dances that we see, it comes from the Jew. Dancing and like, that's, that's historical, because black slaves during during church, they used to dance around, and they used to literally judge each other off of their dance moves. And so that's, yes, it's traumatic, but like, What I meant was I didn't want again. I didn't want the focal point of his story to be racial trauma. Yep, he's going to learn about his history through his grandmother, but he's going to learn that his great grandmother, it was, had magic, and she could transform things, and she can she she got herself to freedom using her magic that they so desperately tried to take away. Yeah, so in that you still learn, but I just didn't want to teach white readers. Hey, look at me. This is what black people go through because of trauma. No, it's just and trauma and conflict. I think some, sometimes a lot of people get those mixed up. Yeah, you know, yeah, you still go through conflict.

Traci Thomas 40:54

Right, right, right, right, exactly. And I think also, like, just hearing you talk about that play, and what you're saying about, like, so many films about, like, slavery are written by white people. It's like, okay, well, why can't we have a chance also to tell our own stories, our own traumas, right? It's like, oh, everyone's all of a sudden tired of black trauma. But it's like, well, bitch, I haven't even started yet. Like, we haven't started. Like, you're tired of Steven Spielberg's version. But like, may I, may I tell you about my history, and I feel like that's something that's always very frustrating to me. And I'm also a person who really likes traumatic stories. Like, I like to read about, like, the history and like, like, I have a small obsession with the Holocaust. Like, I like, I just like reading about some of the darkest times, but I am invigorated when I get to read a story by a black person about one of those times, right? Like, it's like, it's almost like an erasure. It's like, oh, well, we're not doing this anymore, and so you shouldn't be able to even, you know, like, I think sometimes that's the impulse of, like, we're more than our trauma, and therefore we're not going to do this anymore. And like, I think some I saw a tweet or something where someone was like, how many world war two movies do we have?

LaDarrion Williams 42:12

Exactly, Because they come it seems like World War two movies, I think at a point it seemed like they were coming out every single year, every minute, and they were winning all the Oscars.

Traci Thomas 42:22

Dunkirk, 199- Well, I guess that's World War One anyways.

LaDarrion Williams 42:25

But I get what you're saying, like, those, those we were-

Traci Thomas 42:28

And that was such a small period of history, right? Like World War Two, American chattel slavery- we were enslaved longer than we've been free. So it's like the and I hear what you're saying that like, you didn't want to do that, and that is totally You're right. But I also think this idea that, like, we shouldn't be doing it, that a lot of people push back on, or people being like, I don't I only want to see black boy joy or whatever is like, okay, but also like black people can be joyous in a book that is set during the worst of times, because we have been able to do that. That is our part of our story, and that's part of our magic.

LaDarrion Williams 43:05

Exactly, like, because I yeah, like, I get what people are saying. Like, Well, we thought this was Black boy joy. Well, did you not read the part where he was going through the college and he was smiling to himself, yeah? And he was feeling like a little kid again, and when he saw Alexis, and when they went to and I want to, I don't want to spoil a lot, but, yeah, but there was, there's a lot of joyous moments. But, like, we all grew up like, I'm pretty sure every black person who grew up in the church was like, you know, you know, what's the same pain may endure for the night, but joy comes in the morning. You gotta get through the pain, yeah, to get through the joy, you know, even enjoy like, there's like, I don't want to, I don't want to have the conversation of like, let's erase our ancestors what they went through. Because even in that traumatic, you know, moments again, just like Dominique Marisol said about her play, they still crap jokes and they still they were drinking and they was they was partying like, right? I mean, they were in the in the segregation cells, right? They were still partying and still having, like, all those good time like, I love what in Lovecraft country, right? How that scene where they was having that house party and everybody was dancing, and it was like, boom, boom, boom. And then, as soon as though white people came out and tried to disrupt their dancing, uh, journey, smallest character took that bat and she bashed all their cars in. Yeah? That was joyful to see. Yeah. That was so cool to see, because it was in those moments. A lot of times I feel like if a white person would have wrote that they would have just had those black characters just, well, let's, you know, let's pack up and go home and not party anymore. But I love that moment, and even like the music that they added, like they added, like, the modern day music in that like, it's like, yeah, like, let's go. Like it that that brought joy to for me to see and to see that black woman walk through fire with a book in her hand, even though something very traumatic happened in whole so even in the Tulsa episode they you saw the book. Kids getting ready for prom. I didn't know that until I did my own research. Tulsa massacre. Massacre happened on the night of these black kids proms, and it was sad because they didn't get to experience like some like, some of those seniors didn't get to experience their like, their prom. But there was a lot of joy in like, not in a Tulsa massacre, but, but we, I think we only, we only focus on the Tulsa massacre, but we didn't, but I would have loved to see them going to the movies, right? Because they had their own movie theaters. They had their own banks and their own entertainment. Yeah, it's just, it's a balance. I think, I think a lot of times black people, black audiences, we got tired of seeing only slave movies, and they were only written from a soul perspective of because you see the white writer, the white director and the white producers.

Traci Thomas 45:49

And the white savior in the film.

LaDarrion Williams 45:52

Even though that wasn't even true, like that, even in Hidden Figures, right? Kevin Costner's character wasn't even he didn't even exist, right? And they had him knocked down the colored only bathroom side. Yeah, I think that's where, where people are tired of the black trauma, because, yes, it's told through the lens of a white person.

Traci Thomas 46:12

I think the telling through the lens of a white person specifically, and again, like I am a pro trauma person, and I also respect people who are like, I don't fucking want that. And like, I am grateful that there are creatives and readers who want only joyous depictions, and that is within your right to to write and to read and everything. And the opposite is true to me too. But I do think it's really interesting that you got so much pushback about about that language. Because I do think, like in my reading, like, I mean, I just in my understanding of history, you cannot divorce racial trauma from the experience of black people in America. It's not possible, even if you write a book that's all joyous, and it's just like I went to the movies and had popcorn and it was the best day of my life. Like, you know, someone might have been looking at you, or you might have someone the manager might have come over and said, Can I help you?

LaDarrion Williams 47:14

You know, like, whatever that is, it's those little reminders you just you don't allow it to detour you. And again, for blood root, we don't even white people don't even have, like, steak in the story. Yeah, you know, like they're not even, I just again. I didn't want to write my again. My Malik, Malik Baron, goes through a lot of he goes through a lot, yeah, and he's learning, and he's making mistakes, and he's he's not saying he sometimes don't say the right thing, and it's okay. We have to, because when I was 17, I was saying any and everything under the sun, like I was making so and I look back, when I was 17, I was like, validarian, why did you do that? But you don't know, because you, I think a lot of readers, too, are so far removed from that age. You're like, Well, I wouldn't do that. Well, of course, I hope you wouldn't.

Traci Thomas 48:05

I hope not!

LaDarrion Williams 48:06

You're 40, mid 30s and 40s. I hope you wouldn't make the same mistake as a 17 year old teenager. I think we have to, yeah, I think we have to be gracious of that. And I am that too. Like, there's some stuff. I'm like, I'm not really, I'm not really, I'm not really messing with that, because I see, I see the white savior trope that's happening, but that's still somebody's story.

Traci Thomas 48:28

Yeah, you know, let me ask you this, because, because you're new into the book space, and, like, you know, you had this sort of, like, public dust up with the Internet people. And to me, that's really different than, I think, a lot of what happens in the theater. And I'm wondering how that feels for you. I mean, I know, like, someone like, maybe, like, a Jeremy o Harris has had some pretty public dust ups and, like, talk about a thing that is really focused on racialized trauma slave play, right? Like, that is the center of the entire play. But I'm just curious, like, the like, rabid readers who are, like, so passionate about the work and like, want to tell you about that, how that compares to for you from, like, being a playwright and like, maybe people see the show and you're not even there that day and you never hear from like, or do you feel like it is similar, the kind of feedback?

LaDarrion Williams 49:19

It's definitely not similar, because from in the on the playwriting side, I get black people, like, I just got a message, because I have a play going up in Memphis right now, and it's selling out, and I'm so happy.

Traci Thomas 49:34

What's it called? What's it called?

LaDarrion Williams 49:36

I wrote a play called Coco Queens, okay? I wrote a play about four black women living in the 70s, and most people are probably like, Now, why is this Black man writing that story? And I and I told and I only want black women to direct it, and I put that. In the actual script, like only black women can direct this play, and I don't really want to impede my even though the director was very like, no, we want your thoughts. But I was like, Well, I don't, because I don't want to bring my male biasness into it. Yeah, I trust you as black women to tell this story, but I'm getting messages from people that don't even know me. They was like, even black men. They're like, brother. Thank you so much for writing this play. Because they was like, I saw my grandmother, I saw my mother on that stage. I saw my aunties and to know, and getting these, these things. And I'm pretty sure people like, I didn't really like that play, and I never hear from them ever again, right? I think the book community in the way Blood at the Root was set up, and I'm grateful for everything that it did and it's doing. I think it's, I think it's easily accessible than theater, because sometimes you gotta play rights go through months and sometimes years without getting a production Right, right? Books, books are out there and and I have to fight, but I made sure every bookstore is stocking Blood at the Root so people go in there. It's easily accessible, and people and yes, I am. And please don't tag authors and bad reviews, because they always say, you know, they always say, authors stay out of review spaces. And we, and I do. But when I'm constantly being tagged in one you're inviting me into that space. And yeah, and I'm just, and it's so interesting. I'm new to the book world, and I'm navigating even this week, even some of the pushback that I've been getting, I'm navigating it, and it's hard for me. Sometimes, you know, like I'm human. I My feelings are sometimes my feelings are hurt, and sometimes I'm like, Okay, well, then maybe you're not that good, you know. And I was dealing with that for a couple of days. I was like, well, then maybe you're not that, you know, maybe you're not that great. But also, this is my first book, yeah, and I, you know, and I'm going to grow, and I want to grow, and I want to become better, and I'm learning crafting and all of that. So I'm like, you asking me, like, how am I, how is it different, and how I'm dealing with it? I'm literally, like, navigating it right now, right? Yeah, yeah. And I'm and I'm and I'm pretty sure for Book Two, I'm gonna learn, you know what, ladanya, just keep your head down and just stay focused. That's why, like, I love Beyonce. Like Beyonce is, she's really, like, an inspiration of mine, not even just outside of music. She's like, just stay focused and focus on the craft and make sure you grow and just do everything you can, because you got to think about those young boys who are, who are on the verge right now, who are quitting, yeah, reading, reading, and maybe one, I don't know, maybe want to drop out of school, or maybe feeling they're in the foster care like I have no hope. And maybe they walk into a Barnes and Noble like I just, I'm this because I was this black boy, and they walk in and they see Malik on that book cover, and they like, what is that? Right? Because that boy looks like me, and they crack open that book, and they see themselves reflected through the text. And then they want to continue to push so I have to focus on that, yeah, more, because I want to make sure that they're reflected in these stories black, not just black boys, but black children, black queer boys. Yeah, you know, I want to make sure they're not always relegated to the side, that they have their own agency. So, yeah, I'm navigating, I'm navigating it really right now.

Traci Thomas 53:08

Yeah, well, it's a hard thing, and I feel like, you know, when I, when we set up this interview, like there hadn't been all of that pushback, at least that I had seen. And so, you know, I'm, like, reading the book, and I'm hearing, you know, I'm hearing from you, I'm hearing from others. And I was really interested to know, like, what that feels like, especially knowing that you do come from the theater, and in my experience, like it is pretty different. Okay, this is such a hard shift, but you already mentioned Oreos and Cheez Its Yes. How else do you like to write? Like, do you write all day? How often do you listen to music? Are there other snacks? Are there beverages? Are there rituals like, kind of set the scene?

LaDarrion Williams 53:51

So I'm because those Oreos and cheeses I was living off of, they made a brother gained a lot of weight. I have to kind of switch to some healthier at least something. But you know, I love music, and I know a lot of people like, don't put music in books, but I'm like-

Traci Thomas 54:12

No, I think there's so much music in this book, is there a Spotify playlist? So send me the link.

LaDarrion Williams 54:19

Yes, I will definitely send you the link music for me. It. It provides words in the silence when I when I don't have any words. The other night, I was, I was listening to, I was writing a love like, kind of like a love scene. I don't want to spoil it for people, but there's a love scene in book two. And I was listening to The Color Purple, soundtrack. And I love the movie. I know a lot of people didn't like it, but that scene between Fantasia and Taraji was, it was one of the most beautiful scenes I've ever like I ever witnessed. And I was listening to that song, and I was just hearing Fantasia singing, and I was just writing because music I don't. No music, just it helps me tap into different places, and when I'm running like I'm running an intense scene. So Malik, he loves, he loves Kendrick, He loves J Cole.

Traci Thomas 55:12

Not team Drake, I hope.

LaDarrion Williams 55:14

He's definitely not. He loves Kendrick, but I love how Kendrick, he's he, like I describe it in the book one, he spits that rap poetry, right? Like, I love how he talks from the the gruffness and the like, the wrongness. But I also love J Cole because he talks about the adolescents, yeah, and him going from adolescence to experiencing, losing his virginity and falling in love and and going through the streets and like now in adulthood. So I love that there's a complete, you know, stages of life, right? And it's music. So I love listening to that. I think music is a big thing. And also Pinterest. I love Pinterest. It's getting kind of crazy with the AI pictures, but I have to, I have to shout out this one photographer on Twitter. I think his Twitter name is son Ra, um, he's from Mississippi, and he posts pictures of um, black folks like farmers and black southern life. And I love going through his his catalog, and I'm like, oh, that's, that's the type of vibe that I want for this chapter. And because Gordon parts, you know, he did the same thing, and Bearden did the same thing for August Wilson, right? I read some of their work. I'm reading Zora right now, mules and men and Richard Wright, black boy. I want to dive into the old text. How? Because Zora, the way she wrote prose, it's just like, it's just, it's poetry. Is literally like, I'm like, How did ma'am? I was like, resurrect you. And say, Please teach me. I go to the theater, I watch play, I watch movies and scenes from some of my favorite movies, because I want to feel like that 17 year old kid again. And the league is experiencing a lot of He's dealing. He has a roommate who loves to watch Living Single and I go watch, I go watch Sister, sister. I go watch, like, the college years, right, right, right. And so, yeah, you know, like, and that's kind of like, my, my thing. And I don't have, like, a ritual, like, I'm like, I have to do this. Like, August, he said he has to wash his hands. I just write. And I just, I just go through it. I go through a lot of emotions when I write.

Traci Thomas 57:25

Wait, I have to ask, what's your favorite August Wilson play?

LaDarrion Williams 57:28

Jitney. Jitney, yeah. But as I'm getting into, like, my spirituality, I think Gem of the Ocean inspired a lot of my characterizations-

Traci Thomas 57:40

Yes, see that. I can see it. I can see it.

LaDarrion Williams 57:44

Yeah, yeah. So I was very inspired just her monolog about going to the City of Bones, yeah, and, and a lot of people, it could go over a lot of people's heads, but for for those are listening, the City of Bones is the Atlantic Ocean that our, that our ancestors traveled over, and they, and they, you know, they, died in dignity, and they're at the bottom of the ocean, so that definitely inspired a lot. So it's becoming my favorite play of his.

Traci Thomas 58:08

Okay, I am basic. I do really love Fences. I do.

LaDarrion Williams 58:14

Yeah, I love, I connect with lions in Fences a lot. Okay, just with my just with my relationship with my father.

Traci Thomas 58:23

Oh, wait, I also love Jitney. I was confusing Jitney with another one. I also love Jitney.

LaDarrion Williams 58:32

It just reminds me of my uncle. It reminds me sitting in the barber shop when I was little, right? And my uncles against chewing that tobacco and spitting it out in a Coke can, you know, or Coke bottle that my uncle used to spit in a coke bottle. Yeah, it just reminds me of that in the language. I mean, August, that's why I say I always stand on the shoulders of August Wilson, because he inspires me a lot. Zora and Lorraine. I mean, those are my Titans. You know, that I look to, you know?

Traci Thomas 58:59

Okay, I have two more quick questions for you, then we're done. One is, what is a word you can never spell correctly on the first try?

LaDarrion Williams 59:06

Oh, wait, what is the word? Uh, convenience.

Traci Thomas 59:10

Oh, impossible, impossible.

LaDarrion Williams 59:11

I'm like, How to-

Traci Thomas 59:13

Where do those vowels come from and where do they go?

LaDarrion Williams 59:16

How do you like? Is it I E, or is it E? Yeah, like I can't. Or in condolences, convenience, condolences? Is it condolences or condolences?

Traci Thomas 59:27

I am one of the world's worst spellers, so I would not know.

LaDarrion Williams 59:30

So I think, because that's how I have to do it, like, I was like, okay, con ven ience. like, convenience.

Traci Thomas 59:41

I'm probably getting it wrong. I get it wrong every time, anytime I try to spell the word that people can't spell. I'm always, always getting it wrong.

LaDarrion Williams 59:49

Oh, those be kicking my ass. That's why I don't put it a lot in in the book. I'm tired.

Traci Thomas 59:57

I lied to I said two more, but actually have have two now. I have two. One is for people who like Blood at the Root. What else would you recommend to them that is in conversation with? What other books would you recommend that's in conversation with what you've done?

LaDarrion Williams 1:00:10

I want to shout out this writer, Shakir Rashaan. He wrote this novel called never race, okay? And it's about a black boy from Atlanta, and he describes it as Cloak & Dagger, like Marvel's cloak and dagger meets Bel-Air,

Traci Thomas 1:00:27

Oh, okay.

LaDarrion Williams 1:00:28

And it's like, he's like, this kid has, like, the power that he could transform into this beat, like a beast, like animal. And it's about this black boy. He falls in love, and he he goes through the city of Atlanta. It's such a beautiful book, and I want to shout that out, because it's kind of like in direct conversation with mine, and he just deserves because I just, I love shouting out other black authors. There's Ryan Douglas is. It's a horror book, so a lot of us like horror. It's called The taking of Jake Livingston, okay, another, he was another black ya writer who was on the same mission that I was just showcasing black queer boys, and black boys in a in a better light, there's Terry J Benton Walker's blood decks and blood justice. Please support those black authors, because I think we're, we're like some of the only black men in ya right now they're like, creating some great work.

Traci Thomas 1:01:23

Yeah, and, like a more fantasy space. I love it. Okay. Last one, if you could have one person dead or alive read this book, who do you want it to be?

LaDarrion Williams 1:01:33

Okay, Zora Neale Hurston, I because she inspires me and and I just want, I want to, I wanted this book to pay flowers to her. I love it because she didn't receive them while she was here.

Traci Thomas 1:01:45

So everyone, the book is called Blood at the Root. You heard it here. It is the first in a trilogy. So you have to read it. Get ready for next summer. I listened to some of the audiobook. It's fantastic. Great. Really brought it to life. For me, it was when I started listening to the audiobook that I was really like, oh, I have to see this on the screen. Because I was like, I gotta see but he's really giving a performance. He's getting in there. It's, I mean, it's not just narration. It is voice acting, for sure.

LaDarrion Williams 1:02:19

He's really one of those talented young black actors that we need to be looking at. Shout out to him, and please watch him on All American they just got renewed for another season, so I don't know if this character's coming back, but hey, Jalyn Hall is as an actor we need to be watching.

Traci Thomas 1:02:36

And everyone, get through your copy of Blood at the Root wherever you get your books. LaDarrion, thank you so much for being here.

LaDarrion Williams 1:02:42

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Traci Thomas 1:02:43

And everyone else we will see you in the stacks.

All right, y'all that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening, and thank you again to LaDarrion Williams for joining the show. I'd also like to say a huge thank you to Josh Redlich for helping to make this conversation possible. Don't forget the stacks book club pick for August is Master Slave Husband Wife, by Ilyon Woo, which we will discuss with Jay Ellis on Wednesday, August 28th. If you love the show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/thestacks to join The Stacks Pack and subscribe to my newsletter at TraciThomas.substack.com. Make sure you're subscribed to The Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts and if you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, be sure to leave a rating and a review. For more from The Stacks follow us on social media at thestackspod on Instagram, Threads and TikTok and at thestackspod_ on Twitter and you can check out my website at thestackspodcast.com. This episode of The Stacks was edited by Christian Dueñas, with production assistance from Lauren Tyree. Our graphic designer is Robin McCreight and our theme music is from Tagirijus. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

]]>Ep. 332 For the Black Boys with LaDarrion Williams